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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
177
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I discovered that I now qualify for Gallente, Caldari, and Minmatar Marauders after training skills for unrelated needs. WIth the changes to looting mechanics (thanks new UI), it may not be viable to salvage in concert with mangling NPCs, although that is still an attractive concept for me. Plus, Marauder prices are gonzo, bizeemo, and generally nutzoid.
So, I'm curious to know if these very expensive ships are worth the price (hull, skill book, fittings, rigs). Do they still fulfill their role as a "salvage as you go" mission runner ?
Now, my Mach can speed run L4's, but then I have to salvage after the fact. So, even if the Marauder kills more slowly, there may be more time savings due to concurrent salvage capability.
Comments, thoughts, ideas, please ! |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Exhale.
145
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think it'd be faster to smash the mission with some other ship then clean it up with a noctis. While marauders can do both things at once, they do each thing much slower so... eh. Marauders are a crap ship class these days. |
Vain Eldritch
State War Academy
Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote: Marauders are a crap ship class these days.
They are if you consider marauders as only salvaging battleships for PvE, yes. Outside that limited view, there's still much to recommend them.
Androgynous Caldari Cross-dresser |
Lord Drokoth
DARKNESS RISING.
19
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Macha + Noctis alt. Problem solved.
As they are now, marauders are redundant. |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
Intrepid Crossing
42
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Posted - 2012.07.13 09:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
They are only good for ninja plexing. Even then, i'd still take an ishtar. |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
Intrepid Crossing
42
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Posted - 2012.07.13 09:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lord Drokoth wrote:Macha + Noctis alt. Problem solved.
As they are now, marauders are redundant.
There was a rash of video's popping up of people flying the Eos and other command ships and absoutely TRASHING people (e.g. noobs who dont fit damage mods) - this leads to a lot of command ships being nerfed and CCP have a nervous breakdown when they realised T2 Battleships would have to 'one-up' the command ships in terms of combat capabilities if they where gonna be flown.
The decided to make them into useless niche ships, such as blops and marauders.
I'd like to see the tier 3 BS rival faction battleships for combat PVP purposes tbh. With proper t2 resists. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
296
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Posted - 2012.07.13 09:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wasn't there a fight in the Tourny last week where two Vargurs owned the living snot out of the other team?
Just sayin'
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Crellion
Parental Control
29
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Posted - 2012.07.13 10:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
With a little practice a Vargur will kill and salvage in a fraction more of the time the Machariel takes to kill. If you are dual boxing with a Noctis alt its still wrong you should be dual boxing with 2 Marauders.
PvP wise in many / some situations the 4 utility slots and slightly better resists compensate easily for the sensor strngth disadvantage. Marauders are faction BSs with a twist (Vargur - Macha, Nightmare - Paly, Kronos - Vindicator, Golem - ugh now thats not qute half as good as a rattler :P) and that ho you treat them and price them.
You can cram enough neuts on a gank Kronos to make a Bhaalgorn jealous :P |
Lord Drokoth
DARKNESS RISING.
19
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Posted - 2012.07.13 10:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Crellion wrote:With a little practice a Vargur will kill and salvage in a fraction more of the time the Machariel takes to kill. If you are dual boxing with a Noctis alt its still wrong you should be dual boxing with 2 Marauders.
PvP wise in many / some situations the 4 utility slots and slightly better resists compensate easily for the sensor strngth disadvantage. Marauders are faction BSs with a twist (Vargur - Macha, Nightmare - Paly, Kronos - Vindicator, Golem - ugh now thats not qute half as good as a rattler :P) and that ho you treat them and price them.
You can cram enough neuts on a gank Kronos to make a Bhaalgorn jealous :P
Funnily enough i did both...
I used to dual box 2 fof cruise golems and a noctis..
Id just sit and pull aggro with the marauders and load/launch the missiles.. and id salvage on the noctis alt while the golems ripped the spawn a new one.
Fof golems are deffo subpar... but then theres 2 of them doing 600-700 dps at whatever range they work at.. the only problem is the missiles ******** target choice.
I also used to 4box rattlesnakes for a laugh the same way... but it was actually slower than the golems. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 10:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Crellion is right, aside from the golem thing (golem is much, MUCH better than the rattler for missions).
If you're going back to salvage with a second ship, by the time you've warped back to the mission you've already lost the advantage you gained by that fraction more dps you did with the mach. By the time you've looted and salvaged the mission the guy in the vargur has now burned halfway through his next mission, and is now beating you in terms of isk/hour. |
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Saile Litestrider
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
JINN.
30
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Posted - 2012.07.13 11:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Crellion is right, aside from the golem thing (golem is much, MUCH better than the rattler for missions).
I've got to question whether you've played with rattler fittings since the advent of the drone damage augmentors and ancillary shield boosters. It can get downright scary now. |
Abyssum Invocat
Club Bear
20
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Posted - 2012.07.13 11:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Wasn't there a fight in the Tourny last week where two Vargurs owned the living snot out of the other team?
Just sayin'
They won because they got lucky that the other team had no ECM. They were a bad choice considering how ECM heavy loadouts tend to be. Also, this thread is clearly about PVE. |
ACE McFACE
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
763
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Posted - 2012.07.13 11:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vain Eldritch wrote:TheGunslinger42 wrote: Marauders are a crap ship class these days. They are if you consider marauders as only salvaging battleships for PvE, yes. Outside that limited view, there's still much to recommend them.
You mean they're much better for flying into low, getting tackled by a Hurricane with ECM drones, being perma-jammed, and dying?
"7 pages of people insulting me - aka trolling" - Lady Hofstedar
What s/he (probobly he) meant:
"7 pages of people disagreeing with my terrible idea - aka trolling" - Lady Hofstedar |
Effect One
Selective Hearing
Nearly Feared
30
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Posted - 2012.07.13 12:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Admitedly I've never tried to PvP in a Marauder.
That said, I can't imagine the low sensor strength being much of an issue generally. With the way ECM is currently implemented you're going to get jammed if a Falcon decloaks 100km from you whether you're in a regular BS or Marauder. ECM is broken.
Gives people more of a chance to get in the lucky jam with the obligatory flight of ECM drones I suppose.
What am I missing? |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 12:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Saile Litestrider wrote:Cambarus wrote:Crellion is right, aside from the golem thing (golem is much, MUCH better than the rattler for missions). I've got to question whether you've played with rattler fittings since the advent of the drone damage augmentors and ancillary shield boosters. It can get downright scary now.
Drone damage mods take the drone rattler to like 700 DPS, which is still awful. If you put torps on it then you've got the same problems as a golem, but no TP bonus and less DPS.
If you want a ship that makes good use of the drone damage mods, fly a navy domi (I think I got my mission fit to 1400 DPS with rails but I'd have to double check that) |
Saile Litestrider
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
JINN.
30
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Posted - 2012.07.13 12:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Drone damage mods take the drone rattler to like 700 DPS, which is still awful. If you put torps on it then you've got the same problems as a golem, but no TP bonus and less DPS.
If you want a ship that makes good use of the drone damage mods, fly a navy domi (I think I got my mission fit to 1400 DPS with rails but I'd have to double check that)
You're only getting 700 out of it? I'd recommend taking another look at your fitting.
Then again it's one of those ships where, if you don't like it, you're not likely to ever like it. At least that's my experience with rattlesnake fans and those unimpressed by it. |
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.07.13 12:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:
Drone damage mods take the drone rattler to like 700 DPS, which is still awful. If you put torps on it then you've got the same problems as a golem, but no TP bonus and less DPS.
If you want a ship that makes good use of the drone damage mods, fly a navy domi (I think I got my mission fit to 1400 DPS with rails but I'd have to double check that)
I don't think 700DPS is right. With Torps+sentries+bonuses, torp rigs, dual TPs, dual Omni's, and BCU X3, my Snake burns down BS's out to ~43Km far faster than my Navy Domi with sentries+bonuses, sentry DPS rigs, dual omni's and no TP's. Torps do require TPs for optimal performance, perhaps that's the difference. My Mach delivers obviously high DPS out to ~50km with 800mm ACs, but the Snake has a way better tank.
How all that matches up with a Marauder is the point of this thread. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
296
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Posted - 2012.07.13 13:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
This doesn't apply to all the Marauders, but the big Falloff bonus on the Vargur clearly makes it lean towards Auto-Cannons. Personally I love Auto-Cannons, but they are hard to use effectively on most ships in PvE; Artillery can start applying damage as soon as you enter the mission area. Auto-Cannons most often can't. But the Vargur looks like it can get some nice range out of Auto-Cannons.
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Batelle
French Defence Union
82
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 14:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Saile Litestrider wrote:Cambarus wrote:Crellion is right, aside from the golem thing (golem is much, MUCH better than the rattler for missions). I've got to question whether you've played with rattler fittings since the advent of the drone damage augmentors and ancillary shield boosters. It can get downright scary now. Drone damage mods take the drone rattler to like 700 DPS, which is still awful. If you put torps on it then you've got the same problems as a golem, but no TP bonus and less DPS.
I get 800 dps with drones and t1 cruise missiles (crappy missile skills), so your numbers are way off. Furthermore, that dps can be projected 50km with garde's w/ excellent tracking and no loss of dps due to falloff. Can a Machariel boast that?
My reaction to the tier system and skill tree overhaul https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=899560#post899560 |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
Real Life Rejects
10
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Posted - 2012.07.13 17:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
The Marauders as ships are most defintly viable, the vagaur is behind the Mach in DPS, but it is not that enormous of a differnce, but it is significantly less ammo hungry than the Mach (the machs 7 rof bonused guns vs the vaguar's 4 double damaged bonused guns), THe paladin is in the general range of the nightmare, the golem is better/equal to the CNR. THe upside of cherry picked salavage vs no PVP due to crappy sensor.
BUT, the maurauder skill is definitly obsolete:
It is a dead end (it not a prerequisite for anything), it is a skill training pain (a 10x, Willpower/Perception, with high pre reqs), it is also not a cheap skill book. Basically if you could add the train the second race BS (to allow the pirate ship you want) to 5 for the same cost as maruder 5 and get a lot more out of it. |
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Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
297
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Posted - 2012.07.13 17:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Very much agreed: in the face of Pirate Battleships like the Nightmare and Machariel, the ridiculous training time for Marauders make them a lot less attractive.
There are so many stupid skills like Energy Grid Upgrades that you must max just to pilot one! Also; the Weapon Upgrades line of skills. It is a nice skill line to train, to be sure, but it shouldn't be the requisite to fly the damn things!
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 20:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Cambarus wrote:Saile Litestrider wrote:Cambarus wrote:Crellion is right, aside from the golem thing (golem is much, MUCH better than the rattler for missions). I've got to question whether you've played with rattler fittings since the advent of the drone damage augmentors and ancillary shield boosters. It can get downright scary now. Drone damage mods take the drone rattler to like 700 DPS, which is still awful. If you put torps on it then you've got the same problems as a golem, but no TP bonus and less DPS. I get 800 dps with drones and t1 cruise missiles (crappy missile skills), so your numbers are way off. Furthermore, that dps can be projected 50km with garde's w/ excellent tracking and no loss of dps due to falloff. Can a Machariel boast that?
The 700 was without missiles. If you had perfect skills, and went full on gank fit, you'd get about 1300 out of a rattler and 1400 from a golem, and the golem will outperform it in the end because of that target painter bonus.
Mind you outperforming the rattler in missions isn't hard, a regular t1 domi can do it with some mild faction bling, |
warzonetemp
Mining and Industrial Services
The Irukandji
5
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 20:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
If you go the route for specialization, why don't we all fly Nightmares and live in Amarr space or go to Sansha null sec for hunting.
Tachyons are extremely scary weapons still, especially if 4 of them equals 8.
Has anyone ever done a check between Paladin versus Nightmare stats? Think the scan resolution helps the nightmare beat the Paly. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
121
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Posted - 2012.07.13 20:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
salvage is pretty meh these days, and most of the time when I do loot it is just a metal scrap. main exception: Enemies abound, some nice juicy loot there maruader with 3x tractor beams ftw.
paladin is pretty much a lazy nightmare. easy to perma run stuff on the paladin. plus the 48km tractor beam is very useful on a few missions.
Kronos, a lower dps, better tank and cap recharge vindy. I haven't flown either one enough to form a solid opinion yet. as far as the domi goes I've never really been into the domi.
varg has lower dps and better tank than a mach. it makes AE pretty brain dead, tbh I haven't really flown it much outside of that, but most people seem to like it the most out of the marauders.
golem, doesn't really have a direct pirate boat, and if anything the tengu and CNR compliment it more than replace. Missiles have gotten kinda meh in pve though. I'd rather fly the mach for the close range brawl missions.
only reason to fly a rattlesnake is mostly afk 700 dps boat. |
Saile Litestrider
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
JINN.
30
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Posted - 2012.07.13 21:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I get 800 dps with drones and t1 cruise missiles (crappy missile skills), so your numbers are way off. Furthermore, that dps can be projected 50km with garde's w/ excellent tracking and no loss of dps due to falloff. Can a Machariel boast that?
800 is still low. I can push 1000 with cruises, three omnidirectionals, and more than enough tank, and I haven't played with it more than a few minutes. You can stuff those lows with nothing but damage mods, it's honestly hard to make it not have enough tank for missions anymore.
Cambarus wrote:If you want a ship that makes good use of the drone damage mods, fly a navy domi (I think I got my mission fit to 1400 DPS with rails but I'd have to double check that)
I would like to see your navy domi fit, or the gist of it at least. Not trying to call you out or anything, I'm genuinely interested. I do like turrets better than missiles, but it seems a lot harder to go full gank with the navy domi without going into the mission with your pants around your ankles defensively, even taking the dps into account. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
|
Posted - 2012.07.13 22:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm still toying with the exact fit, but THIS is what I'm currently using, and in most missions I'm not even turning on the tank <3 |
Saile Litestrider
SHUN THE NON BELIEVER
JINN.
30
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Posted - 2012.07.13 22:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:I'm still toying with the exact fit, but THIS is what I'm currently using, and in most missions I'm not even turning on the tank <3
Very nice fit, thank you for sharing! |
Hakaimono
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
7
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Posted - 2012.07.14 00:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
I fly Minmatar and I'm on the brink of being able to train for Marauders(Vargur). Actually I will be able to in about 14 hours.
However, I'm also considering going through the extra month of training to save even more money for a Mach.
So for a mission runner I could either do looting and salvaging with a Vargur or fly a Mach and have to choose between a tractor beam or a salvager for the extra hi-slot.
Decisions decisions.... |
McRoll
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
46
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Posted - 2012.07.15 00:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
This is a very common question and comes up once a week regularly. There are the pirate faction BS fanboys who don't get tired of telling you that Noctis+ Faction BS is better ISK/h than Marauder, which is wrong.
If you are able to put some APM out while playing and already have the prerequisites for Marauders, it is a better choice than faction BS. As somebody already stated, the Marauder pilot will overtake in ISK/h the moment the other pilot warps back, switches to Noctis, warps back in and starts salvaging. The Marauder pilot will be halfway through the next mission when the Noctis guy finishes salvaging.
What most people seem incapable to understand is the fact that the Marauder pilot is able to kill stuff as fast as the faction BS pilot while salvaging all the important wrecks at the same time. Prerequisite for that is putting some effort into your gameplay and having Multitasking skilled up, this enables you to lock up to 10 targets which renders low scan res a non- issue and leaving you enough room to lock several wrecks and NPC's at once.
That said one needs to specify which Marauder he is aiming towards, because Vargur is the best of the bunch. I personally find Golem and Kronos not so hot, so Nightmare and Machariel against their preferred NPC's might even be a better choice than Kronos or Golem. If you decide for a Vargur, you should always be ahead in ISK/h given a good fit and gameplay.
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Kalli Brixzat
70
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Posted - 2012.07.16 03:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Depends on the mission completely.
I will use my Golem for missions where:
1. My warp-in is <40km from rats
2. The loot/salvage is consistently good (Angels Extravaganza, Gone Berserk, and anything with Mercenaries)
3. Lots of BS/BC-sized targets
4. (Most importantly) Full clearing/looting/salvaging is better than blitzing.
If all or most of the above is met, then I use my Golem (same would apply for pretty much all other Marauders too). If the above is not the case...then just use your T3 or gankiest mission BS and blitz.
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