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Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:08:00 -
[1]
I posted this on the Tyrannis patch notes thread, but it merits it's own discussion.
I would really like to see the skill requirements for the Covetor rebalanced to just require Mining Barge 4 and Astrogeology 4, and make the Hulk a real step up with the skills at 5 instead of making the Covetor almost pointless. The training time for a Covetor when a Hulk is just a short skill hop away makes no sense. The progression is cruiser > Retriever > Hulk and you see almost no Covetors in the middle being deployed like they should be. This is a shame because they would otherwise fill a great niche in productivity. Why does a Tech 1 non-capital ship need to have all relevant skills at 5?
This has been out of whack for a very long time and I hope CCP considers it for the next expansion after Tyrannis.
Discuss. |
Macvombat
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:12:00 -
[2]
Seems reasonable.. you seem to neglect the fact though, that the hulk may only be 2 days away from the covetor in skills.. but in isk it is around 120 mill away, still making it a rather large step for some players - it seems like it wouldn't hurt too much to throw one of them down to 4, i think both Mining barge and astrogeology to 4 would be too little training
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Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Macvombat Seems reasonable.. you seem to neglect the fact though, that the hulk may only be 2 days away from the covetor in skills.. but in isk it is around 120 mill away, still making it a rather large step for some players - it seems like it wouldn't hurt too much to throw one of them down to 4, i think both Mining barge and astrogeology to 4 would be too little training
ISK is negligible as a hard barrier though in terms of balancing the ships, since those with good jobs (or trust funds, or well off parents, etc) in RL can easily and quickly buy time codes and sell PLEX, buy the Hulk immediately as an investment, and then make up the ISK with the increased mining productivity it offers. |
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:25:00 -
[4]
The mining barges are all out of whack.
The Procurer is virtually useless, other than as a base item for Skiff production and the Covetor is almost the same in relation to the hulk. ______________________ Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University |
Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.05.25 14:15:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 25/05/2010 14:23:49
There is probably a reason for the high pre-req for Covetors. As players, you will typically see things from your own individual standpoint, but there are also greater considerations that come into play.
The current (major) Covetor pre-reqs are Mining Barge 5 and Astrogeology 5, which would typically add around 25-35 days extra training time over the Retriever. In terms of yield ratio (see Halada's guide), the Covetor provides a 54% increase over the Retriever. So, as you can see, dropping both the pre-req skills to 4 will make the Covetor OPed and the Retriever worthless (where the case of Procurer vs Retriever is repeated). This will certainly be abused by macro miners all around, making alts training considerably shorter and startup costs cheaper.
Keep in mind, the Hulk is a T2 ship and without it, Covetor is king. What CCP should have done was bump up the pre-req slightly higher than now, say requiring Spaceship Command V for the Exhumer skill - which adds another 3-4 days extra. Now it's too late to recant because plenty of players will burn CCP for taking away their Hulks.
So, in principle, if you're looking to lower the bar for the Covetor, what naturally must follow is a rebalancing of its yield capacity in proportion to the time invesment required to train the skills. Dropping them without dropping yield will be an OPed buff. Tbh, the entire series of mining barges and exhumers need to be slightly tweaked - not just the Covetors.
/edit:clarity |
Adren Sarethi
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Posted - 2010.05.25 14:41:00 -
[6]
Don't drop both to 4, that's too much. I think Covetor should require Mining Barge lvl4 and Astrogeology lvl5. That is more reasonable in training times but still quite a way from Retreiver.
Oh and Procurer needs some help.
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Ayzn Betokhn
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Posted - 2010.05.25 16:03:00 -
[7]
I agree that dropping one of the prerequisites to level 4 makes sense.
In the past, the skill requirements in jumping from a covetor to the hulk were less relevant to the discussion, since the real obstacle in that transition was the old hulk price of 400-600 million (or more) and a smaller supply of hulks. Covetors were more common then, because hulks were so expensive and the supply was more limited. Since the covetor was the best mining ship available to many/most miners, training a long time to get to the best didn't seem so unnecessary. Early versions of Halada's mining guide even included a discussion whether it was even worthwhile to buy a hulk and how long it took to recover the investment. The introduction of invention changed the hulk supply and the price significantly, which is why now it doesn't seem like a big jump to go from a covetor to a hulk. Isk-wise, pre-invention, it was a huge jump.
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.05.25 17:04:00 -
[8]
dropping barge to 4 and leaving everything else as is makes sense to me. The covetor is hardly useless though. They have become very prevalent in WH space due to the high likelihood of a barge getting ganked. I probably see 5 covetors mining for every hulk these days.
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries United Star Federation
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Posted - 2010.05.25 17:58:00 -
[9]
I've always sen the Covetor as the low-sec hulk. Granted the BPO is 2b and you need godly mining skillz to use it.
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.05.25 23:25:00 -
[10]
I agree with your principle, but disagree with the solution.
I think the Hulk should require Exhumers V. Everyone and their uncle shouldn't be using a Hulk. You should be dead serious about your mining, and finally getting into your Hulk should be an accomplishment.
Incidentally, before invention, a Hulk typically ran over 500m isk, which was a pretty big filter for ownership...
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Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.26 00:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sturmwolke Edited by: Sturmwolke on 25/05/2010 14:23:49
The current (major) Covetor pre-reqs are Mining Barge 5 and Astrogeology 5, which would typically add around 25-35 days extra training time over the Retriever. In terms of yield ratio (see Halada's guide), the Covetor provides a 54% increase over the Retriever. So, as you can see, dropping both the pre-req skills to 4 will make the Covetor OPed and the Retriever worthless (where the case of Procurer vs Retriever is repeated). This will certainly be abused by macro miners all around, making alts training considerably shorter and startup costs cheaper.
Keep in mind, the Hulk is a T2 ship and without it, Covetor is king. What CCP should have done was bump up the pre-req slightly higher than now, say requiring Spaceship Command V for the Exhumer skill - which adds another 3-4 days extra. Now it's too late to recant because plenty of players will burn CCP for taking away their Hulks.
So, in principle, if you're looking to lower the bar for the Covetor, what naturally must follow is a rebalancing of its yield capacity in proportion to the time invesment required to train the skills. Dropping them without dropping yield will be an OPed buff. Tbh, the entire series of mining barges and exhumers need to be slightly tweaked - not just the Covetors.
/edit:clarity
When you put it this way, I agree that acknowledges the problems and makes more sense to me balance wise as far as dropping one skill to 4 and adding something to the Hulk and the rest of what you outlined. |
Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.05.26 10:05:00 -
[12]
I am playing EVE for more than a year and I am still only flying a Retriever. I will never get me a Covetor when the training time is so close to a Hulk. Only when its requirement for mining barges drops down to IV will I train astrogeology to V and get me a Covetor. I am about 2m skillpoints away from a Covetor/Hulk and I have no plans for a Hulk, and I do not see me making any for at least another year. I would love to fly a Covetor and only fit it with T1 strip miners.
Lots of I's in there, but the skill requirement is like a slap in the face. --
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Tiska Drak
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sturmwolke What CCP should have done was bump up the pre-req slightly higher than now, say requiring Spaceship Command V for the Exhumer skill - which adds another 3-4 days extra. Now it's too late to recant because plenty of players will burn CCP for taking away their Hulks.
Actually I think they can make that work as long as Spaceship Command V is a prereq for the Exhumers skill and not for the ship itself. Anyone who had already trained Exhumers is fine, anyone who has not would need to meet the new prereq threshold.
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Maven Deltor
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Posted - 2010.05.26 16:15:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Utremi Fasolasi
Originally by: Macvombat Seems reasonable.. you seem to neglect the fact though, that the hulk may only be 2 days away from the covetor in skills.. but in isk it is around 120 mill away, still making it a rather large step for some players - it seems like it wouldn't hurt too much to throw one of them down to 4, i think both Mining barge and astrogeology to 4 would be too little training
ISK is negligible as a hard barrier though in terms of balancing the ships, since those with good jobs (or trust funds, or well off parents, etc) in RL can easily and quickly buy time codes and sell PLEX, buy the Hulk immediately as an investment, and then make up the ISK with the increased mining productivity it offers.
Cost is not an issue for high sec mining where you don't really risk losing your ship. However, if you're mining anywhere you might be attacked, having a cheaper hull to switch to could be beneficial. I'm thinking like wormhole mining? I don't really know the example, I mine in high sec ;)
But lets ignore the price of ships, and just talk about the problem as you see it. Why is the solution to make the covetor require fewer skills? Why not make the hulk require exhumers 4 or 5 instead? It's already only 2-3 months from day one character to flying a hulk. If there is a balance to be made it should be with the best mining barge in the game requiring more skill investment to fly it.
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Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.27 01:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Maven Deltor
But lets ignore the price of ships, and just talk about the problem as you see it. Why is the solution to make the covetor require fewer skills? Why not make the hulk require exhumers 4 or 5 instead? It's already only 2-3 months from day one character to flying a hulk. If there is a balance to be made it should be with the best mining barge in the game requiring more skill investment to fly it.
You are a little late to the party, and may want to read the rest of the posts in the middle, this has been covered already. Note especially the post by Sturmwolke and my agreement with him.
Why did I put what I did in the original post? because it is all I thought of at the time.. that is why we post.. to spark discussion and bring in new other and different ideas... |
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