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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.05.29 19:43:00 -
[571]
Edited by: Zeba on 29/05/2010 19:45:27
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: CCP Chronotis This is not the fix, but the first fix of a few, with more to follow as we announced in the first reply here that we intend that everything be ready for when Planetary Interaction launches.
Waiting almost 3 days (wakalaka, 2010.05.27 01:17:00) to plug the hole in any way once it became public knowledge was... how should I put this... pretty poor. Also, the way you addressed the issue... removing NPC orders altogether... instead of, say, changing the NPC sell order price for the "issue" structures ? Pretty poor too.
Short of a rollback, somebody, somehow will either get the shaft, get insanely rich, or both could happen to different people at the same time. And the more you draw the conclusion of this out, the worse it gets.
I'm still curious as to why ccp would arse themselves to rollback or take anything away. The only people getting affected 'negatively' are the already insanely rich and noone cares about them. As I stated earlier its a massive boon to ccp's goal of making nullsec a highly divided map full of heavily defended fiefdoms. So whatever they come up with is going to be cosmetic at best like making the mods unrefinable when they go back on the market. Give it up MD guys, noone buys your reactionist lines of economic ruin anymoar because we all know better. It's not like there aren't already 38478343947 other ways in eve to pad your already bulging wallets.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:18:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Akita T [...]Short of a rollback, somebody, somehow will either get the shaft, get insanely rich, or both could happen to different people at the same time. And the more you draw the conclusion of this out, the worse it gets.
I'm still curious as to why ccp would arse themselves to rollback or take anything away. The only people getting affected 'negatively' are the already insanely rich and noone cares about them. As I stated earlier its a massive boon to ccp's goal of making nullsec a highly divided map full of heavily defended fiefdoms. So whatever they come up with is going to be cosmetic at best like making the mods unrefinable when they go back on the market. Give it up MD guys, noone buys your reactionist lines of economic ruin anymoar because we all know better. It's not like there aren't already 38478343947 other ways in eve to pad your already bulging wallets.
Of course they wouldn't do a rollback (or at least, it's very, very, very unlikely). My point (other than a throwback to Chronotis' "dire warning" maybe-bluff) was that there's a lot of potential for some classes of people to get screwed by this to some extent. Ultimately it's CCP's near future actions which will decide who gets screwed and in which manner exactly. Also, how long they wait until they act also helps decide how many will be affected - and yes, the effects can still propagate even with the structures taken off from the NPC market.
I kept saying it in the past, I keep saying it now, and I will keep saying it - gradual changes towards a desired end effect have overall a worse effect (not just during the transition period, but after it too) than a sudden singular change, as far as the EVE economy/market goes. They shouldn't have needed almost 3 days to make the first step, they should have made ALL the changes they would eventually make within hours, or one day maximum. They have all the data (including data players would find it very difficult to obtain), they have more than enough feedback from us (and they kept having it for a while now). There is no excuse for sipping champaign in the sun under a "Mission Accomplished" banner instead of canceling the celebration in order to hold an emergency meeting that can swiftly come to a decision and implement all fixes/changes in a massive sweep as soon as humanly possible.
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General Bezelbub
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:25:00 -
[573]
It sad, that a rollback is most likely the best option. Yet, I think its the least likely option to happen at this point.
I also doubt they are going to do the 10x fold material exchange to devalue the remaining p4 items, as it wont take into account those in manufactor or already converted to isk.
And as to wiping the queues and all "ill-gotten" p4 goods/isk from reprocessing. Thats even more unlikely then a rollback.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:29:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Akita T Of course they wouldn't do a rollback (or at least, it's very, very, very unlikely). My point (other than a throwback to Chronotis' "dire warning" maybe-bluff) was that there's a lot of potential for some classes of people to get screwed by this to some extent. Ultimately it's CCP's near future actions which will decide who gets screwed and in which manner exactly. Also, how long they wait until they act also helps decide how many will be affected - and yes, the effects can still propagate even with the structures taken off from the NPC market.
I kept saying it in the past, I keep saying it now, and I will keep saying it - gradual changes towards a desired end effect have overall a worse effect (not just during the transition period, but after it too) than a sudden singular change, as far as the EVE economy/market goes. They shouldn't have needed almost 3 days to make the first step, they should have made ALL the changes they would eventually make within hours, or one day maximum. They have all the data (including data players would find it very difficult to obtain), they have more than enough feedback from us (and they kept having it for a while now). There is no excuse for sipping champaign in the sun under a "Mission Accomplished" banner instead of canceling the celebration in order to hold an emergency meeting that can swiftly come to a decision and implement all fixes/changes in a massive sweep as soon as humanly possible.
Unless of course this entire stunt was something ccp hoped would happen for whatever reasons only they would know given that they are the only ones who truely know the actual numbers and where they want the game to go. Like I have stated and will continue to state the refine-gate lulz are not really going to have any issues with changing the overall health of the economy and has 'inadvertantly' been a huge boon to the part of the game ccp has been focusing on recently in its marketing and development directives.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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Shintai
Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:29:00 -
[575]
I would like to note that under the POS module refines to alot of minerals issue in the past. There was no removal or rollback for the involved parties. --------------------------------------
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:58:00 -
[576]
Originally by: Akita T They shouldn't have needed almost 3 days to make the first step, they should have made ALL the changes they would eventually make within hours, or one day maximum.
They need time to code and bugtest whatever the fix is. It's not gonna be re-seeding some crap on the market, it's gonna be changes to the core guts of the game (more or less). This isn't an issue to fix and forget, this is an issue where they'll want to make sure it never ever EVER happens again. I don't think they're going to over-react by deleting inventory, but I do think they're making fundamental changes to the market, production, and recycling systems.
Also, the comments and drama in this thread are definitely for show, too. The pressure to make CCP hurry up and make more mistakes certainly serves a few purposes.
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Jack Dant
Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:05:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Merouk Baas
Originally by: Akita T They shouldn't have needed almost 3 days to make the first step, they should have made ALL the changes they would eventually make within hours, or one day maximum.
They need time to code and bugtest whatever the fix is. It's not gonna be re-seeding some crap on the market, it's gonna be changes to the core guts of the game (more or less). This isn't an issue to fix and forget, this is an issue where they'll want to make sure it never ever EVER happens again. I don't think they're going to over-react by deleting inventory, but I do think they're making fundamental changes to the market, production, and recycling systems.
Why? The "bug" here was in CCP's pricing of npc seeded stuff. That's it. Reprocessing stuff, even NPC sold stuff has been in game forever, and never been called a bug or exploit. This time they didn't bother to check the NPC prices made sense compared to the value the items had when built (or the reverse, reprocessed) by players.
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:09:00 -
[578]
Because they're in damage control mode and not really thinking, not that thinking is their strong suit, considering the state of the last two expansions. They froze stuff so they could have their weekend break, and will resume scratching their heads on Monday or Tuesday.
But somebody, somewhere, will have to prove to upper management, that this kind of thing will never happen again even if they seed stuff with the wrong price on purpose. So, what do you think the result of that will be?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:11:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Merouk Baas They need time to code and bugtest whatever the fix is.
They needed to make changes to a tiny portion of the static data, and a reset of NPC orders. That would have taken one unscheduled downtime and a couple of hours tops, most likely.
What static data ? Baseprice of the "problem" structures (ramped up to more realistic prices, followed by the reset of NPC order prices), output of P4 reactions (from 1/hour to 10/hour), volume of P4 products (from 100 m^3 to 10 m^3) and a "bump up" by a factor of 10 in P4 usage for non-problem structures. THAT, done 3 days ago, would have been just about peachy. Hell, it would also be peachy right about NOW.
Approval from the heads and/or decisions by committee, yeah, sure, that takes a week or so.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:16:00 -
[580]
They can't stop following their procedures and QA processes just because you gave them a solution you think is best, Akita. Deflate your ego a bit.
They're killing many birds with one stone, now that they have a reason to make drastic changes to the game. It's not about speed anymore, it's about thoroughness.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:18:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Merouk Baas They can't stop following their procedures and QA processes just because you gave them a solution you think is best, Akita.
And that's why I said they needed a freaking emergency meeting nearly 3 days ago. And also why I said (in other words) it will sadly most likely take a week or so.
Quote: They're killing many birds with one stone, now that they have a reason to make drastic changes to the game. It's not about speed anymore, it's about thoroughness.
No, it's about damage control, and damage control only. Those things you speak of, they had months to make. This is cleanup for one oversight, nothing more, nothing less.
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Neo Gabriel
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:19:00 -
[582]
I still think that changing extraction rates and volumes appropriately by 3 orders of magnitude (x1000), with the bpo/bpc reqs to match this would have nullified any monetary gains, a long as all the POSes (and other items) in manufacture and all the new outposts were deleted. Maybe give some isk compensation for the trail blazers but this is all that is needed.
I am till hoping this is what they will do. I cannot believe they are going to let this slide.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:20:00 -
[583]
Where is the much vaunted economist in all this
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:25:00 -
[584]
Originally by: Neo Gabriel I still think that changing extraction rates and volumes appropriately by 3 orders of magnitude (x1000), with the bpo/bpc reqs to match this would have nullified any monetary gains
A factor of 10, and ONLY for the P4 reaction outputs (nothing changing P3 or below) would have almost exactly the same effect, and be far less work. _
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Neo Gabriel
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:37:00 -
[585]
Edited by: Neo Gabriel on 29/05/2010 21:42:41
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Neo Gabriel I still think that changing extraction rates and volumes appropriately by 3 orders of magnitude (x1000), with the bpo/bpc reqs to match this would have nullified any monetary gains
A factor of 10, and ONLY for the P4 reaction outputs (nothing changing P3 or below) would have almost exactly the same effect, and be far less work.
Since only the p4 items are involved in this mess, that is a sound argument, but why only 10x? There is a bunch of p4 already out there. By multiplying the available and the necessary numbers by a higher magnitude, the value of the existing merchandise is decreased by that much. Are you saying that 10x would be enough?
Edit: Don't you also think that the new outposts and poses need to be taken out? People just spammed these things... If they are allowed to remain PI demand will remain weak for a long time. And I am ok with the idea of CCP reimbursing them costs (at least some of it).
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.29 21:57:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Neo Gabriel Since only the p4 items are involved in this mess, that is a sound argument, but why only 10x?
Because that's roughly how much cheaper than intended P4s were obtained for, on average, from the "issue" structures. This way, on average, out of those that still have P4s leftover, it's about even. Individually, some people lose a bit while others win a bit, but nothing too dramatic. It's the most cool-headed choice, intended to keep as much as possible the balance between not rewarding but also not punishing those that took part in any of it. Also, it has the advantage of only slightly affecting PI, in the very early days. Most of the damage to PI would be contained.
Quote: Don't you also think that the new outposts and poses need to be taken out?
If you do that, you might as well do a rollback, because that's almost what it would amount to... so, no, not really. It was CCP's screw-up, it would be kind of "un-EVE-ey" to punish people for taking advantage of something CCP took more than their sweet time to fix, no matter how much SOME would like to see them punished. Besides, it's not like it would really affect the market too much after those changes - yes, stockpiles might exist, but stockpiles of POSes and outpost thingies are far, far, FAR less massive compared to P4 stockpiles (which were/are the real problem right now). Of course, the more they wait, the more stockpiles there are... so while deleting them is kind of a no-no, moving as quickly as possible to stop the possibility to make more cheap should be their priority.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:05:00 -
[587]
Originally by: Merouk Baas They can't stop following their procedures and QA processes just because you gave them a solution you think is best, Akita. Deflate your ego a bit.
They're killing many birds with one stone, now that they have a reason to make drastic changes to the game. It's not about speed anymore, it's about thoroughness.
But there's no need for thoroughness. All the mechanics work just fine. The only problem here is a mismatch between prices and values on one single module. Fix that mismatch, and the problem will disappear.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:19:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Merouk Baas They can't stop following their procedures and QA processes just because you gave them a solution you think is best, Akita. Deflate your ego a bit.
They're killing many birds with one stone, now that they have a reason to make drastic changes to the game. It's not about speed anymore, it's about thoroughness.
But there's no need for thoroughness. All the mechanics work just fine. The only problem here is a mismatch between prices and values on one single module. Fix that mismatch, and the problem will disappear.
The problem atm is the fact that around 1 trillion isk has gone into buying PI goods at 1/10th of their 'correct' price, no? Fixing those prices won't do anything about the stockpiles, and the stockpiles leave PI dead in the water.
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:35:00 -
[589]
Well, i can name a dozen alliances who are dropping outpost eggs this coming week thanks to this. And it was closer to 3billion isk per egg.
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Auwnie Morohe
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:42:00 -
[590]
As I understand it, the problem is that there is too much of some of the P4 materials.
How about CCP make a one time sink for those materials. I was thinking about an enhanced T1 cruiser with T2 resists or something like that. The materials to build it are a T1 cruiser and some of the P4 materials. Seed the BPCs in limited amounts.
I suppose there are other ways to draw these materials of the market it just needs to be temporary, very desirable and it needs to go kaboom into nothingness.
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wakalaka
Information And Entropy
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:15:00 -
[591]
Edited by: wakalaka on 29/05/2010 23:16:41 About 4.5B raw cost of REA and CSJ reprocessed. And you are left with lots of remaining P4 which you could be able to sell back into the market.
Then add another 2B of minerals and NPC stuff for the deployment of the Egg, at current value.
A cost of 5B-6B per Outpost deployment would be accurate.
You also had to add the investment into BPOs. For the very basic setup, +3B of BPO for a 1 month building plan.
Or consider a speed setup to chain the construction of outposts. This would involve enough Station parts BPO as to build them faster than the Egg (which has <6days building time).
And manufacture slots from a dozen for the slow setup, to about 54 for fast speed.
This means, about 8-9B initial investment minimum to make the first Egg.
Congratulations to the winners.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:18:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Merouk Baas They can't stop following their procedures and QA processes just because you gave them a solution you think is best, Akita. Deflate your ego a bit.
They're killing many birds with one stone, now that they have a reason to make drastic changes to the game. It's not about speed anymore, it's about thoroughness.
But there's no need for thoroughness. All the mechanics work just fine. The only problem here is a mismatch between prices and values on one single module. Fix that mismatch, and the problem will disappear.
The problem atm is the fact that around 1 trillion isk has gone into buying PI goods at 1/10th of their 'correct' price, no? Fixing those prices won't do anything about the stockpiles, and the stockpiles leave PI dead in the water.
Hence why you make the change functionally retroactive, with the 10:1 scaling. Again, this is pretty simple stuff. It might not be the best solution(though I can't think of any that aren't worse, barring use of a time machine), but it's simple, and not really something that requires QA work.
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Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:23:00 -
[593]
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Well, i can name a dozen alliances who are dropping outpost eggs this coming week thanks to this. And it was closer to 3billion isk per egg.
That's pretty interesting considering eggs take a week to build. Apparently, people who went for the reproc opportunity not only got cheaper P4 mats, but they also acquired the ability to produce ~3600 station parts (just under a day per part normally) in ZERO TIME!
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:37:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Banlish What about those dirty profiteers angle?!!?!?! There's always going to be someone in EVE making money in some fashion for being 'first', oh well, it happens, we live, we learn, we hope it happens to us someday. PL had fountain (and every region around it forever)
u still mad about that?
The best part is that your statement of PL being the 'first' to profit from those moons is wrong given we took the majority of them from BoB/GBC when they were running R64s with small unarmed towers. Also Aridia (which was also run primarily by BoB before we took it) didn't make all that much less isk than Fountain while being 100x simpler logistically.
Gotta love how you're still emo enough about it all to compare playing the game by the same rules as everyone else was subject to with what is an obvious exploit. It isn't like all those POS we were running didn't show up in local or something is it?
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:44:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Hence why you make the change functionally retroactive, with the 10:1 scaling. Again, this is pretty simple stuff. It might not be the best solution(though I can't think of any that aren't worse, barring use of a time machine), but it's simple, and not really something that requires QA work.
Not at all sure what you're arguing for here - a retroactive 10-fold price hike so that if you spent a billion on jammers and REAAs, another 9b would be automagically removed from your wallet? I imagine that would near-bankrupt a lot of the people who are heavily into this, and given what chronotis said about the daily volume of POS stuff, it'd take a *long* time to break even. Not that I'd shed tears for them, but...
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:48:00 -
[596]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/05/2010 23:59:04 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/05/2010 23:53:06 Pathetic behavior CCP.
Once again you prize exploiters.
Because you can use all the excuse and rewording on the planet, but that was just it: people exploited your bug and you don't have the BALLS to undo it.
Your game looks worthless when you leave free runners like this. So much for the competition, economy blah blah. There's no competition when all it takes is that someone is absent a week end (or in my case, actively chooses not to exploit) and everyone else can get richer tenfold in his face.
So, the honest (or just absent) players think: "I did the right thing, CCP will show them not to cheat".
And what do we get? A coward: "yes they exploited buy it's not an exploit => nothing done".
Know what? Today I have read exploiters joking in the face of those who did not jump to the bandwagon.
That's right: feel stupid and "special" because of not exploiting, while everyone else does impunely. That's a good lesson for the new players.
And then you have the holy face to ban them if players bot @5M per hour... while others made 10B in hours.
Now, in 4 months we'll see some PR and tired design by committee decision at how your hired 8 new brass to avoid future screwups and blah blah.
Too bad, it was time days ago to fix the bug THEN figure out how to implement QA. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.05.30 00:02:00 -
[597]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/05/2010 23:59:04 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 29/05/2010 23:53:06 Pathetic behavior CCP.
Once again you prize exploiters.
Because you can use all the excuse and rewording on the planet, but that was just it: people exploited your bug and you don't have the BALLS to undo it.
It's the end of the worlds as we know it.
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Vilgan i'Lakin
Pirates and Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.05.30 00:10:00 -
[598]
Kind of entertaining how people think this is the end of PI but ignore the 928390482342 clicks involved. PI's current interface/experience is the biggest enemy of PI, not this reproc thing. Make the PI experience not suck and give it decent output and it'll improve PI long term a lot more than punishing reproc lemmings.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.30 00:12:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Not at all sure what you're arguing for here - a retroactive 10-fold price hike so that if you spent a billion on jammers and REAAs, another 9b would be automagically removed from your wallet? I imagine that would near-bankrupt a lot of the people who are heavily into this, and given what chronotis said about the daily volume of POS stuff, it'd take a *long* time to break even, and would be punitive without affecting the surplus. Not that I'd shed tears for them, but...
If you mean 'retroactively reduce the amount of P4 goods you get from melting cynojammers', that goes a long way to fixing the surplus, but creates different problems.
It's been described more extensively in past posts, but the short version is that you increase the build requirements on all the non-problem items by a factor of 10, and then increase P4 production by a factor of 10 as well. Basically, it nerfs all stockpiles by a factor of 10, while leaving everything else unchanged.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.05.30 00:17:00 -
[600]
Originally by: Vilgan i'Lakin Kind of entertaining how people think this is the end of PI but ignore the 928390482342 clicks involved. PI's current interface/experience is the biggest enemy of PI, not this reproc thing. Make the PI experience not suck and give it decent output and it'll improve PI long term a lot more than punishing reproc lemmings.
WAAAAAY ahead of you The joke is that the official reason as to why they delayed PI was that they had "scalability issues which led to code refactoring" (in other words, they had no serious intention to work more on the interface nor rebalance anything, it was just working slow). What a joke
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