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Thawed Corpse	Posted - 2010.06.01 02:57:00 - [1] Having read extensively many of the notes that others have made in the forums, and having hunted down many planets details myself, I'm a bit bewildered that the high-sec planets are so completely worthless compared to zero-sec and wormhole planets. Specifically I was looking at amounts of Felsic Magma, Reactive Gas, and Autotrophs, which I could find nowhere to exceed about 4% quality in high sec. Then I read that some planets in 0-sec and WormHoles have amounts that near 100%. Also I understand that operating PI in high-sec is about a break even proposition, or a tiny isk-maker, but probably not worth the effort, while someone in zero-sec can crank out perhaps a billion a month? If any of this is even remotely true, how can it be good for anyone in eve to make only the pirates rich and leave everyone else poor? I'm not complaining that isk cannot be made other ways in high-sec, but just that the inflation from all the zero-sec production will inevitably hurt everyone left in high-sec rather badly. I hope CCP fixes this or that I am somehow mistaken. Please.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:13:00 - [2] im sorry this makes total sense to me. move to 0.0 maybee? also there are pirates in nulsec?
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:21:00 - [3] I hear ya but they will not care becouse its high sec and your talking null sec and wh's that are neer or at the 100%. I am how ever disapointed not that the high sec % is low but at how low it is. I just had it in my mind null sec/wh 80-100% low sec 30-80% and high sec 1-30% but that was in my mind. And it's what looked like or sounded balanced to me but wtf do I know. Just means using my cloaking transport ship for more then runing my low sec pos now I need to us it for the low sec plants too. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Vilgan Mazran on 01/06/2010 03:31:59 Its not worthless, its just slower. Also, the % bars don't really matter much. Its more about hot spots. In a hot spot in high sec on sisi I was getting about 800/cycle on a 23 hour setting. In null I was getting 1750, with a few (rare) spots giving up to 2100. So its not the end of the world, it just means you'll have to drop more extractors if you want to extract in high sec. Most people in highsec will probably just focus on the advanced/elite factories (or whatever they are called) to improve PI stuff rather than extracting. Makes sense and gives a general balance to things imo.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:39:00 - [5] Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 03:43:22 _ Lowsec should give noticeably better results, and 0.0/w-space SHOULD give hugely better results, that's only natural. If anything, lowsec/0.0 planets need to be even better than they are now compared to their highsec counterparts, thanks to the already described hotspot issue. Well, at least we can hope people will overlap on highsec hotspots and deplete them relatively fast, so overall lowsec/0.0 planets will end up looking more attractive. And no, it's NOT "just pirates" out in lowsec. In 0.0, almost by definition, there are no (player) pirates at all. Plus, there's also always NPC-controlled 0.0 space, for instance, and static highsec exit w-space systems. It's other highsec revenue streams that need a DOWNSIZING (or their corresponding lowsec/0.0 ones a boost). How else do you expect MORE people to want to get out of highsec ? _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Thawed Corpse	Posted - 2010.06.01 03:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 03:40:57 _ Lowsec should give noticeably better results, and 0.0/w-space SHOULD give hugely better results, that's only natural. If anything, lowsec/0.0 planets need to be even better than they are now compared to their highsec counterparts, thanks to the already described hotspot issue. Well, at least we can hope people will overlap on highsec hotspots and deplete them relatively fast, so overall lowsec/0.0 planets will end up looking more attractive. It's other highsec revenue streams that need a DOWNSIZING (or their corresponding lowsec/0.0 ones a boost). How else do you expect MORE people to want to get out of highsec ? I understand your sentiments somewhat, but it is a matter of degree. Instead of a quality ratio of 15 to 25, I'd think that a quality ratio of 7 to 10 makes a bit more sense. It would still incentivise moving into low-sec operations, but not make high-sec totally worthless, and thereby leave a monopoly in the hands of the corporations in low-sec. If you are already in low or zero sec, I can understand completely why you would love to have a virtual monopoly.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.	Posted - 2010.06.01 04:03:00 - [7] Just another incentive for players to move to low-sec/null/wh Store
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 04:06:00 - [8] Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 04:15:44 Originally by: Thawed Corpse I understand your sentiments somewhat, but it is a matter of degree. Instead of a quality ratio of 15 to 25, I'd think that a quality ratio of 7 to 10 makes a bit more sense. No, what makes sense is a quality ratio of either 1:3:9 or 1:4:9 for high:low:null-sec. Potential rewards proportionate to potential risks for high:low, and 0.0 boosted even more in spite of actual lower risk compared to lowsec because it's where the fabled "end game" would be at (or, well, utter lawlessness, or power to the people, or the open part of the sandbox, or whatever you like to call it, either way, it's where CCP would like more people to go to). Originally by: Thawed Corpse If you are already in low or zero sec, I can understand completely why you would love to have a virtual monopoly. I live in Abagawa, which is a 0.6 system. The closest lowsec is 5j away (Akora/Maila), closest 0.0 at 7j away (BWF-ZZ, Germinate). It's also 6j away from Jita, in the same region, and I make my living remote-trading in Jita. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Heimer Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2010.06.01 07:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Thawed Corpse Also I understand that operating PI in high-sec is about a break even proposition, or a tiny isk-maker, but probably not worth the effort, while someone in zero-sec can crank out perhaps a billion a month? Do you have a link to this claim?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 07:28:00 - [10] A billion a month is negligible, when you think that billion also needs a grand total of roughly 40 to 60 hours OF ACTUAL WORK or so to make via PI. You'd make better cash just ratting. Also, you can make more than a billion a month running L4s in highsec for roughly the same amount of time. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.06.01 07:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Akita T Lowsec should give noticeably better results, and 0.0/w-space SHOULD give hugely better results, that's only natural. No, it is unnatural. It's only "logical" because this game is manufactured to place more natural resources in null sec. Try explaining planet and asteroid resource allocations scientifically and socially. Yeah, even a vague semblance of reality matters to me more than artificial game mechanic restrictions.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Hand That Feeds	Posted - 2010.06.01 07:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 04:46:22 Originally by: Thawed Corpse I understand your sentiments somewhat, but it is a matter of degree. Instead of a quality ratio of 15 to 25, I'd think that a quality ratio of 7 to 10 makes a bit more sense. No, what makes sense is a quality ratio of either 1:3:9 or 1:4:9 for high:low:null-sec. Potential rewards proportionate to potential risks for high:low, and 0.0 boosted even more in spite of actual lower risk compared to lowsec because it's where the fabled "end game" would be at (or, well, utter lawlessness, or power to the people, or the open part of the sandbox, or whatever you like to call it, either way, it's where CCP would like more people to go to). (Not so) Coincidentally, those are also the very old baseprice derived, initially intended ratios of ore belt mining revenue. Originally by: Thawed Corpse If you are already in low or zero sec, I can understand completely why you would love to have a virtual monopoly. I live in Abagawa, which is a 0.6 system. The closest lowsec is 5j away (Akora/Maila), closest 0.0 at 7j away (BWF-ZZ, Germinate ; 2j from Akora). It's also 6j away from Jita, in the same region, and I make my living remote-trading in Jita. I seldom ever even leave the station I'm based at. And if we use that ratio on the quality of the planets we would have 4%:12%:36% if based off the HighSec Current or moving it the other way have 11%:33%:100% based off the 0.0 current It's the the difference between the 4% and the 11% that they are kicking up a stink about.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:07:00 - [13] Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 08:09:15 Originally by: Caldari 5 And if we use that ratio on the quality of the planets we would have 4%:12%:36% if based off the HighSec Current or moving it the other way have 11%:33%:100% based off the 0.0 current It's the the difference between the 4% and the 11% that they are kicking up a stink about. The listed "percentages" refer to the TOTAL amount of resources on a planet in a linear fashion, but the speed of extraction is anything but linear. Thing is, you won't be extracting "stuff" that much faster on a crummy highsec planet than on a 100% planet... at best 3-4 times faster, if even that much, if you pick the hotspots on both. It's just that the 100% planet can accommodate much more players having significantly more extractors total (on multiple hotspots or on larger hotspots) before the yield starts to drop off heavily for both highsec junkplanet or 0.0 uberplanet. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Hand That Feeds	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:11:00 - [14] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 08:09:15 Originally by: Caldari 5 And if we use that ratio on the quality of the planets we would have 4%:12%:36% if based off the HighSec Current or moving it the other way have 11%:33%:100% based off the 0.0 current It's the the difference between the 4% and the 11% that they are kicking up a stink about. The listed "percentages" refer to the TOTAL amount of resources on a planet in a linear fashion, but the speed of extraction is anything but linear. Thing is, you won't be extracting "stuff" that much faster on a crummy highsec planet than on a 100% planet... at best 3-4 times faster, if even that much, if you pick the hotspots on both. It's just that the 100% planet can accommodate much more players having significantly more extractors total (on multiple hotspots or on larger hotspots) before the yield starts to drop off heavily for both highsec junkplanet or 0.0 uberplanet. So basically all the highsec planets will be dead planets in 1 or 2 weeks whilst the 0.0 will be going for Years, due to the population densities :P
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Caldari 5 So basically all the highsec planets will be dead planets in 1 or 2 weeks whilst the 0.0 will be going for Years, due to the population densities :P No, there is a minimum extraction potential too, it's bottom-capped, you can't go below that (it's a percentage of maximum, how much has not been said, but we'll figure it out soon enough... probably 20% or so of maximum). Also, if left alone, a hotspot will very quickly regenerate to maximum for that planet (in a matter of days, how many, not disclosed either), as there's a constant (again, some percent of maximum) replenishing going on at some (again not yet disclosed) intervals. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Hand That Feeds	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:22:00 - [16] it's going to be a fun ride to find out all those variables :P
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 08:44:00 - [17] Originally by: Caldari 5 it's going to be a fun ride to find out all those variables :P More of a chore, really. And you could probably already do that on SiSi if you wanted to. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.01 11:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Caldari 5 So basically all the highsec planets will be dead planets in 1 or 2 weeks whilst the 0.0 will be going for Years, due to the population densities :P No, there is a minimum extraction potential too, it's bottom-capped, you can't go below that (it's a percentage of maximum, how much has not been said, but we'll figure it out soon enough... probably 20% or so of maximum). You have a link to that? I recall CCP saying the exact opposite. Originally by: Akita T Also, if left alone, a hotspot will very quickly regenerate to maximum for that planet (in a matter of days, how many, not disclosed either), as there's a constant (again, some percent of maximum) replenishing going on at some (again not yet disclosed) intervals. Again I have some doubt about the "very quickly" as the regeneration rate was boosted on Sisi for testing purposes.
45 Longslide	Posted - 2010.06.01 13:29:00 - [19] Logic, tradition, and EVE lore have always dictated 0.0 being superior to low sec and empire. However, with regards to felsic magma I'm having problems seeing the logic in the distribution. I've scanned 50+ lava's in systems ranging from 0.4 to 0.1 and have so far only seen one that was close to 40% ( in a 0.3 iirc ) and a second that was close to 25% ( 0.1 iirc ). The rest have been negligible to nonexistent. Same thing for the 5 or 6 lava's i scanned in NPC 0.0. A friend in W space has a lava that scans +/- 50%, better than average but not amazing. Aside from that most other elements seem to be fairly well distributed, but i've yet to scan a 'Win' system that had excellent allocations of more than 2 semi rare elements.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.01 16:21:00 - [20] Edited by: Akita T on 01/06/2010 16:21:50 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Akita T Also, if left alone, a hotspot will very quickly regenerate to maximum for that planet (in a matter of days, how many, not disclosed either), as there's a constant (again, some percent of maximum) replenishing going on at some (again not yet disclosed) intervals. Again I have some doubt about the "very quickly" as the regeneration rate was boosted on Sisi for testing purposes. :shrug: you could probably say that... I guess it depends on what you call "very quickly"... on SiSi, it almost appears as if it happens on a daily basis or even more often, so even if they boosted it one order of magnitude, at worst you get something like a week. I didn't do enough testing to be absolutely sure. Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Caldari 5 So basically all the highsec planets will be dead planets in 1 or 2 weeks whilst the 0.0 will be going for Years, due to the population densities :P No, there is a minimum extraction potential too, it's bottom-capped, you can't go below that (it's a percentage of maximum, how much has not been said, but we'll figure it out soon enough... probably 20% or so of maximum). You have a link to that? I recall CCP saying the exact opposite. Linkage : Originally by: CCP Incognito There appears to be some wrong information floating around. A) Yes there is depletion, the more extractors that are in an area the faster a resource depletes. How fast depends on how many extractors and what kind of deposits you use. There is a 'ideal' number of players for each planet based on factors I am not going to reveal. B) Resource regenerate over time. C) There is a minimum resource level, it is defined as a percentage of the initial un-depleted value. D) There is no redistribution of resources, it works like a hole. You dig a hole with extractors and it fills back in over time. If you dig at the same rate as it refills the hole it will never empty. Hope this clears things up. There you go (it's from a test server feedback thread). _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _

Steve Thomas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.01 16:57:00 - [21] Edited by: Steve Thomas on 01/06/2010 16:59:54 I think some people are also not getting why Akita and I both think that 0-0 and Wspace need a bit of a boost its because the mechanics enforce a kind of diminishing returns on things Ignoring the other mechanics for a second lets say a given world you can put down 20 total extractors or processors + the spaceport on a perfect world you need 1 processor for each extractor and can put down 10 of each on a 50% world you need 2 extractors to feed 1 processor so you end up with 6 full speed processors and one partial now the odds are your wanting to refine that stuff a bit more on perfect worlds you need 2 Basics to feed one advanced, so you end up with 8 Extractors feeding 4 final processors (or 1 P3 process, with leftovers of <1 P2 on the 50% world you can take down the underyeilding processor and the extractor feeding it to get 2 full P2 processors going and have enough mats comeing up to feed a 3rd processor, so you can either run a third at 50 % (useing the surplust matterial elsewhere) or you can set it up to produce whatever P1s you need elsewhere and thats before things like routing kick in further complicating if not reduceing the number of extractor-processors you can use. that said, 0-0 space is better. Its just not quite the OMFGBBQZXORLUST that some people feel it should be. maybee if they get around to adding the Sov stuff. who knows. . . . . . . . . a (Long) Guide to Pi
Vilgan Mazran Aperture Harmonics K162	Posted - 2010.06.01 18:52:00 - [22] What's the highest cycle time for 23 hour extraction that someone has seen? Highest I've seen is like 2100 so not sure how people are planning on running 1 extractor/factory without micro managing it on shorter extractions (yuck!)
Steve Thomas Minmatar	Posted - 2010.06.01 19:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Vilgan Mazran What's the highest cycle time for 23 hour extraction that someone has seen? Highest I've seen is like 2100 so not sure how people are planning on running 1 extractor/factory without micro managing it on shorter extractions (yuck!) I was doing a hypothetical example to show my point. and some people are getting in 10-12 30 min cycles + 1/2 5 hour runs a day. Granted you have to wonder about there sanity. . . . . . . . . a (Long) Guide to Pi
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2010.06.02 07:41:00 - [24] Edited by: Rip Minner on 02/06/2010 07:42:08 I have been wondering about the 0.0 sov plantes and what not myself. I can see them some how working them into sov upgrade mecanics. That just mite be why they did not start them out with omfgoodlustlolzzz poor high/low sec scumie plants cant compare right out the box. Sov upgrades on this will also leave npc 0.0 and wh were they are now with no way to compet with 0.0 sov systems as well. Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Ceyna Lakise Spartan Shipyards	Posted - 2010.06.02 08:16:00 - [25] If my corp can use PI to bring our isk cost of running CTs to 0, that's enough success for me. Like anything else this should be one diversification in many aspects of industrialists, not the singular gold mine.
Thawed Corpse	Posted - 2010.06.02 08:24:00 - [26] Thanks for all the insights here. I have an additional question, which is prompted by my reading that you cannot place PI structures on planets that are claimed or under some corps sovereignty. Therefore I'm thinking either of joining a zero-sec corp or just ninja colonizing some worlds in zero sec. Are there many zero-sec systems that are even unclaimed? Or do you pretty much have to join a zero-sec corp to get your greedy monopolistic mitts on these worlds? Thanks.
Agallis Zinthros Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.02 08:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Thawed Corpse If any of this is even remotely true, how can it be good for anyone in eve to make only the pirates rich and leave everyone else poor? Living in null sec a pirate does not make. I am a soldier, not some petty pirate. I don't kill for loot, and I don't ransom. I kill for my corp, my alliance, my blues, and most importantly for fun. Maybe its time someone got rid of the training wheels and learned what EVE was really like? It's not piracy, its surprise PVP.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.06.02 10:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Thawed Corpse Are there many zero-sec systems that are even unclaimed? All planets in NPC-controlled 0.0 areas, namely from regions Venal, Great Wildlands, Curse, Stain, Syndicate, Outer Ring. _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.06.02 11:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Caldari 5 So basically all the highsec planets will be dead planets in 1 or 2 weeks whilst the 0.0 will be going for Years, due to the population densities :P No, there is a minimum extraction potential too, it's bottom-capped, you can't go below that (it's a percentage of maximum, how much has not been said, but we'll figure it out soon enough... probably 20% or so of maximum). You have a link to that? I recall CCP saying the exact opposite. Linkage : Originally by: CCP Incognito There appears to be some wrong information floating around. A) Yes there is depletion, the more extractors that are in an area the faster a resource depletes. How fast depends on how many extractors and what kind of deposits you use. There is a 'ideal' number of players for each planet based on factors I am not going to reveal. B) Resource regenerate over time. C) There is a minimum resource level, it is defined as a percentage of the initial un-depleted value. D) There is no redistribution of resources, it works like a hole. You dig a hole with extractors and it fills back in over time. If you dig at the same rate as it refills the hole it will never empty. Hope this clears things up. There you go (it's from a test server feedback thread). TY, I had seen the quoted part but hadn't considered the effect of that (potentially) granting a minimum extraction value. It all depend if it is something that is reset at DT (i.e. at DT every planet get at least X% of the initial resources or get an increase of the current resources, whatever give a larger number) or if it is a minimum value that will always be available. We will see.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.06.02 11:30:00 - [30] Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 02/06/2010 11:32:04 Originally by: Agallis Zinthros Originally by: Thawed Corpse If any of this is even remotely true, how can it be good for anyone in eve to make only the pirates rich and leave everyone else poor? Living in null sec a pirate does not make. I am a soldier, not some petty pirate. I don't kill for loot, and I don't ransom. I kill for my corp, my alliance, my blues, and most importantly for fun. Maybe its time someone got rid of the training wheels and learned what EVE was really like? You beat me to it. There's also the question of, "How many ships do you lose?" In empire, running lvl 4's I can make a ton of isk and I know I won't lose a ship. In 0.0 I rat or run CAs to make money then when I have the cash I go off and shoot at stuff which has a much greater chance of me ending up in a clone vat. so greater risk = greater reward why is that so hard for people to get their heads round? If you don't like the PVP and just want to PVE and make uber monies go play the X series and mod it so you start with billions. edit: there are also lots of systems available http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Querious for example all you need to do is take and hold them, good luck with that ;) -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value



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