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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:39:00 -
[841] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:Tippia wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote:But you cannot realistically ask this of other people. You can, and people do. They may also use alts, but that's just another option. It's not the only alternative. But they don't. Static alts and tower sitting offgrid booster are pure afk characters, no input required. You cannot ask of a player controlling a single character to do this, because he won't.
Gonna point out that most of the fleets I have taken part in do indeed have people with these rolls. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8673
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:40:00 -
[842] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Irrelevant. Nope. It's what keeps PLEX from being P2W: the simple, unquestionable, irreproachable fact that PLEX does not provide you with anything you cannot get your hands on through other means. No amount of payment is required.
Since paying doesn't give you any kind of special advantage, it's not P2W. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:42:00 -
[843] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mechael wrote:Irrelevant. Nope. It's what keeps PLEX from being P2W: the simple, unquestionable, irreproachable fact that PLEX does not provide you with anything you cannot get your hands on through other means. No amount of payment is required. Since paying doesn't give you any kind of special advantage, it's not P2W.
Payment is never required. You don't have to choose to pay to win, even in a golden ammo scenario. But you can choose to pay to win. EVE provides that choice just as much as the next P2W game. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:42:00 -
[844] - Quote
Mechael wrote: Degrees are irrelevant. Where the money goes is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you can spend real money to generate an advantage in game.
Have yet to see this advantage. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8673
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:42:00 -
[845] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Payment is never required. Dingdingdingding!
Thus, no P2W. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:45:00 -
[846] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mechael wrote:Payment is never required. Dingdingdingding! Thus, no P2W.
By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever, because no one can ever be forced to pay against their will. In any game, not just EVE. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8673
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:46:00 -
[847] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. GǪand what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W.
Quote:By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever Not in EVE, no. In other games there are, because there are things you can pay for that non-payers can never have. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:48:00 -
[848] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mechael wrote:Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. GǪand what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W.
If an advantage can be paid for with real money, regardless of whether or not it can be obtained in any other way, then that is a pay to win mechanic. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:48:00 -
[849] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mechael wrote:Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. GǪand what you have been pointing out is not something that is unique to paying. It's an advantage anyone can have. Thus no P2W. Quote:By that logic, there is no such thing as P2W ever Not in EVE, no. In other games there are, because there are things you can pay for that non-payers can never have.
But you don't have to pay for them. Just like you don't have to pay for them in EVE, or anywhere else. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:48:00 -
[850] - Quote
Tippia wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote:But they don't. GǪand thus we arrive at option 4: get a better corp. Because yes, they do.
Why so strawman? The case studied is the solo, alt-less player
In the case of corps, static scouts and offgrid boosters are invariably afk alts. Why don't players actively fulfill those roles? because they require no input, it's much easier to use an alt and have another ongrid combat pilot;
Tippia wrote:GǪby choice it's not a problem to begin with. He still has plenty of options available to him, but he chooses not to use them. So all you're doing is comparing someone who choses to make use of advantages and someone who doesn't. This tells us nothing about alts or about P2W. It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I'm comparing solo players who don't use alts, vs. those who do. And as proven in the link, no options are there. This tells us everything, or almost, about alts and P2W. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:49:00 -
[851] - Quote
Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.
Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for. |
EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:51:00 -
[852] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote:Tippia wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote:But you cannot realistically ask this of other people. You can, and people do. They may also use alts, but that's just another option. It's not the only alternative. But they don't. Static alts and tower sitting offgrid booster are pure afk characters, no input required. You cannot ask of a player controlling a single character to do this, because he won't. Gonna point out that most of the fleets I have taken part in do indeed have people with these rolls.
Static alts, not mobile. In my experience of nullsec or wh corps, I have never seen any instance of alts not being used as "eyes", and tower sitting offgrid boosters.
Why shouldn't people use them so, since it requires zero input |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:51:00 -
[853] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.
Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for.
Alts. PLEXes (and by proxy, Aurum.) These are things that must be purchased with real money, whether you're doing the purchasing or someone else is. Who does the paying is irrelevant. The relevant thing is that they are advantages that must be paid for with real money. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:52:00 -
[854] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote: In the case of corps, static scouts are invariably afk alts.
Thats about as usefull to a fleet as hulk in a POS bash. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 20:53:00 -
[855] - Quote
Mechael wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
Then you're beyond my help. It's been pointed out as clearly, obviously, and succinctly as is possible. Anyone can spend real life money to tip the balance of the game in their favor via PLEX, via Alts, which are both inarguabley advantageous in that the provide you with the means to do stuff. Just like any other resource. You get a thing, in the game, for real money.
Name the in game things that I cannot get without paying real cash for. Alts. PLEXes (and by proxy, Aurum.) These are things that must be purchased with real money, whether you're doing the purchasing or someone else is. Who does the paying is irrelevant. The relevant thing is that they are advantages that must be paid for with real money.
I can get them with isk. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:02:00 -
[856] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mechael wrote:There are so many things wrong with what you're saying here I don't even know where to begin. Just explain how paying and ending up on the same level as those who don't means you're paying to win. Oh, and the advantages of alts and PLEX can be had just fine without paying for it.
Tell me how alts and PLEX can exist without someone paying real money for them? Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:03:00 -
[857] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Oh, and the advantages of alts and PLEX can be had just fine without paying for it.
Which is wrong, since the issue is far more complex than P2W.
But then again, it's very understandable why people think so |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:04:00 -
[858] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:
How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:04:00 -
[859] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.
Alts which I have without spending any extra RL cash.
Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:06:00 -
[860] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote: How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel.
We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system. Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source.
Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2290
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:06:00 -
[861] - Quote
Mechael wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.
And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.
I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash. Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game.
Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical.
By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win.
Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8673
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:07:00 -
[862] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input? If you want to scout properly, yes. If you don't want to miss things, it can also be a bit more involved than having a second client open.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:07:00 -
[863] - Quote
Mechael wrote:
Someone did. And someone, almost always at least two people, benefited from doing it. Again ... benefiting in-game from someone spending real money on the game.
But I didnt. Doesnt matter if someone spent the cash the fact is that I spent nothing and got exactly the same thing as the people who did. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2290
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:08:00 -
[864] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:baltec1 wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote: How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel. We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system. Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source. Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb.
And if you feel it is an advantage you can get it without paying a penny.
Round and round we go.... again.... To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2290
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:10:00 -
[865] - Quote
This thread is now about how every video game on the market is pay to win, because at some point you have to pay something to play (whether in game or out of game)... and paying that fee is the only way to win because if you can't play you can't win.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:11:00 -
[866] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Mechael wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.
And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.
I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash. Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game. Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical. By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win. Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose.
That's the admittance fee, which while being a form of paying to win (obviously, as you have to pay in order to be able to do anything at all in the game, right? And the devs can't make the game for free ... unless they're making Dwarf Fortress or something,) it is currently the only acceptable form of paying to win. Anything above and beyond that is where I draw the line, really. And believe me, if there were a better game than EVE out there, I wouldn't be here. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
baltec1
Bat Country
1665
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:11:00 -
[867] - Quote
EpicFailTroll wrote:baltec1 wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote: How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input?
It does if you need to keep an eye on where the enemy is and what they are doing. I wonder if this is why SoCo fleet had such horrible intel. We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system. Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay there as a zero-input requiring intel source. Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. But you know all that, and just play dumb.
99% of intel that flows into the intel channels of 0.0 does not come from afk alts but from nullbears doing their things. AFK alts are useless as they provide no intel on shiptypes, direction, and are prone to miss a lot of targets. |
EpicFailTroll
Hedion University Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:12:00 -
[868] - Quote
Tippia wrote:EpicFailTroll wrote:How is looking at an open client on a second monitor complicated? Does it require keyboard input? If you want to scout properly, yes. If you don't want to miss things, it can also be a bit more involved than having a second client open.
We are talking about static scouts. "Eyes" in 1337-D1KS, which do not require input, but are here just to watch for local spikes and fleet movement through said system. Any corp worth its salt has several "eyes" around, which just stay in key systems as a zero-input requiring intel source. A good way to proceed is to have corp leaders or officers each have one additional account with one of such "eyes" on it. The login info can be shared, since those accounts only contain static scouts, very little risk involved. When some officers aren't online, their alt scout can be used by other officers.
Of course, you need mobile alts, actually played. Those are different, since they do require input. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8673
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:13:00 -
[869] - Quote
Mechael wrote:And the devs can't make the game for free Sure they can. There are quite a few F2P games out there, and they're becoming increasingly popular. More and more of them are also not P2W in spite of being F2P. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2290
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:14:00 -
[870] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Mechael wrote:baltec1 wrote:Mechael wrote:
They were bought and paid for with real money. There is no way to get them into the game without someone paying real money.
And even if you could get them into the game solely via in-game means, the fact remains that you could also get them by paying for them. And any advantage that you can pay for with real money is a pay to win mechanic.
I dont have to spend a penny, which means that they are getting exactly zero advantage over me by spending real cash. Except the part where they get more of said advantage over you by spending real cash. No matter how much ISK you are making through solely in-game means, you could be making more if you bought PLEX in addition to it. And that's not even getting into how useful alts are for making in-game money. Alts which must be paid for, by someone, with real money. Alts which alter the balance of the game. Everything in the game requires payment to get, at a minimum you must pay your subscription fee (in ISK or Cash) your definition of pay to win in nonsensical. By your definition there isn't a game out there that is NOT pay to win. Surely you are not being this obtuse on purpose. That's the admittance fee, which while being a form of paying to win (obviously, as you have to pay in order to be able to do anything at all in the game, right? And the devs can't make the game for free ... unless they're making Dwarf Fortress or something,) it is currently the only acceptable form of paying to win. Anything above and beyond that is where I draw the line, really. And believe me, if there were a better game than EVE out there, I wouldn't be here.
This gets better and better. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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