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Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.02 08:34:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 02/06/2010 08:23:44 Anyone saying to group artillery in missions is a freaking idiot or trolling.
/discussion
-Liang
Ed: And I didn't see what was so awesome about the overview?
Not grouping guns has some advantages some times, even if the only advantage is to enrage soft minded trolls who cannot think for themselves why it might be advised to spread your damage especially in pve.
And the overview shows a gistum defeater at 110km when it is at 39km, and the Outlaw in wrong place. (Tyrannis Overview Bug for which the fix will be deployed tomorrow apparently) Which is what I think the thread was supposed to be about...
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:36:00 -
[32]
Remind me again why people use transversal column instead of angular velocity?
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:50:00 -
[33]
Well, angular column's got too many freaking zeroes in them that you'd need a wider column. Tranversal serves just as well as long as you know what's your guns tranversal limitation.
Another useful column is radial. It's almost mandatory. |
Buddy Friend
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Qui Shon Remind me again why people use transversal column instead of angular velocity?
I used to use the angular velocity, but relying on that ignores everything else that's also relevant, so it reminds me that hitting in EVE is not just tracking, forces me to do a rough calc... sig res, sig radius... etc.
Originally by: Liang Nuren And I didn't see what was so awesome about the overview?
Compare the overview with the target icons, esp the frig. Only 112km difference, but who's counting when frigs have the potential to web and scram. Want more and stranger? Can supply.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Buddy Friend How far is that now?
Anyone got better?
1) your terrible, group your guns, if for no other reason than "i said so"
2) You are really bad at this game NOT to know about the overview update thats been a known issue GAME WIDE since tyrannis launched.
Its not Desynch, and by calling it desynch, it shows you have NO IDEA what that ever was.
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Buddy Friend
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grath Telkin
1) your terrible, group your guns, if for no other reason than "i said so"
2) You are really bad at this game NOT to know about the overview update thats been a known issue GAME WIDE since tyrannis launched.
Its not Desynch, and by calling it desynch, it shows you have NO IDEA what that ever was.
Thanks for the bump, I appreciate the support.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:19:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 02/06/2010 11:20:13
Originally by: Sturmwolke Well, angular column's got too many freaking zeroes in them that you'd need a wider column. Tranversal serves just as well as long as you know what's your guns tranversal limitation.
Another useful column is radial. It's almost mandatory.
As long as you know it yes, but for someone who constantly switches ships it seems much easier to compare tracking from show info when you get in your ship, and then remember that for the angular column.
I leave Angular as last, and have it so only three digits are showing, four tops (so 0.02 or 0.023), shouldn't need any more then that.
Radial? Hmm, have to check it out.
Originally by: Buddy Friend I used to use the angular velocity, but relying on that ignores everything else that's also relevant, so it reminds me that hitting in EVE is not just tracking, forces me to do a rough calc... sig res, sig radius... etc.
But, transversal and angular is the same information, isn't it? Only angular is in the same units as your guns tracking, while transversal is not. So it seems to me it's transversal that needs some rough calcs done, to make sense of.
Like for instance pulse lasers without tracking mods or ship bonuses 0.04 L 0.1 M 0.3 S
Not that I've ever used Small pulses, but that progression is easy to remember when looking at your angular column. As above, because I constantly change ships it's easy to quickly show info on the gun before heading out, if you don't remember everything by heart already.
Transversal seems to me as unnecessarily complicating things.
But if I've got it wrong do enlighten me.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:24:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Liang Nuren And I didn't see what was so awesome about the overview?
The distance to the Arch Gistii Outlaw... ... 114 km away on overview, 2.146 km away on selected object view.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Radial? Hmm, have to check it out.
It'll tell you the relative real-time positioning of your ship vs others. Any (+) positive values indicates a red shift (w.r.t astronomical lingo) and any (-) negative values indicates a blue shift.
Infinitely useful when you're chasing someone or to indicate that someone's MWDing towards you at full burn. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:32:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Qui Shon Radial? Hmm, have to check it out.
Closing/escape speed. Very handy.
Quote: But, transversal and angular is the same information, isn't it? Only angular is in the same units as your guns tracking, while transversal is not.
Not quite. Transversal + range gives you the same information as angular (for the purposes of determining tracking). On its own, transversal tells you nothing because it could be taking place just in front of your nose (making tracking the target a "#&%) or at the other side of the grid (making tracking a non-issueà although max firing range might be) and it could still show the exact same value. Angular is simply transversal/range, and the fact that also has the same unit as the tracking of your guns is very handy ù all you have to do is apply some rough multipliers depending on the target size to give you an idea of whether you can track it or not (I go by ~⅓+ for smaller targets, 3+ for larger).
——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Buddy Friend
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:44:00 -
[41]
The column questioners are right. Radial/Angular is the right thing to monitor. A few years ago I spat the dummy because I wasn't hitting as often as the angular velocity would suggest. So I tried something new, transversal, keep it low, learn the formulas, you'll hit. Maybe angular velocity's resolution is not high enough to be useful when you're using big guns. 0.0001 and 0.0002 is very different.
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Buddy Friend
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Posted - 2010.06.02 11:47:00 -
[42]
4n4l retentives can just use this I guess
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.06.02 12:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Buddy Friend 4n4l retentives can just use this I guess
Ahh awesome. I was just dreading having to create a calc sheet of my own for the old TP vs TC debate. Saved me a bunch of work. Thx.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
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Posted - 2010.06.02 13:20:00 -
[44]
trolling used to mean something
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.06.02 14:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian trolling used to mean something
Yes, but only back in 1990's.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.02 18:52:00 -
[46]
Anyone saying to group artillery in missions is a freaking idiot or trolling.
/discussion
-Liang It was suggested that the op set up a few weapon groups so as to not waste any dps on overkill shots and not just bunch them all up into a single volley. There is no need for an entire ungrouped rack of arties on any mission especialy with a set of light drones. So good roll of the dice liang. You came up both freaking idiot and troll in one throw. 07
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Marchocias + = +
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Qolde
Minmatar art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.06.02 19:41:00 -
[47]
Grouping arties would be a total waste. Most ships will be popped before they even get into drone range, and if they did get into drone range, the drones wouldn't reach them before the 7-8 arties would. The only reason for drones is if you miss one, which doesn't happen often. Plus you guys forget that the refire rate of arties is between 10-20 seconds. It's not that much bandwidth being used. If guy was using rails or some other low alpha long range turret, I would agree that it's arguable. But you got a weapon that can instapop many ships. No need to add unnecessary complexity to it.
About using arties in missions at all? Some missions are better done with arties. Some off the top of my head would include Smash the Supplier, Massive Attack, The Assault, Mordus Headhunters, Pot and Kettle, and In The Midst of Deadspace.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.02 20:02:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Qolde Grouping arties would be a total waste. Most ships will be popped before they even get into drone range, and if they did get into drone range, the drones wouldn't reach them before the 7-8 arties would. The only reason for drones is if you miss one, which doesn't happen often. Plus you guys forget that the refire rate of arties is between 10-20 seconds. It's not that much bandwidth being used. If guy was using rails or some other low alpha long range turret, I would agree that it's arguable. But you got a weapon that can instapop many ships. No need to add unnecessary complexity to it.
About using arties in missions at all? Some missions are better done with arties. Some off the top of my head would include Smash the Supplier, Massive Attack, The Assault, Mordus Headhunters, Pot and Kettle, and In The Midst of Deadspace.
In level 2 and three missions an arty thrasher and arty cane are both excellent choices and will quickly shred the rats. But I always grouped at least a portion of my guns to shoot different targets. The thrasher was setup with 2 single guns a 2 gun group and a 3 gun group with the cane using three 2 gun groups. Lock em up and go down the list selecting the proper gun group vs the target with the f-keys. Quite efficient.
Originally by: Qolde It's not that much bandwidth being used.
My arse.
Lets look at your guns from the servers point of view.
Ungrouped: Each gun uses a seperate call to the server with the server having to dedicate a process to each gun that has to be computed one after the other then sent back one after another.
Grouped: Each group sends the data for all guns in one call only needing one process to compute the result and send it back.
That is a hell of a lot of node bandwith and processing power that just got saved especially if everyone does the math to find the optimal grouping for their weapons and groups them.
But go ahead and be selfish and not group your guns. But don't ***** if it gets laggy because everyone else followed your example.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Marchocias + = +
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Amateratsu
Caldari The Pegasus Project
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Posted - 2010.06.02 20:05:00 -
[49]
I'd be very interested to know what your skills and fittings are to get that level of damage.
My best to date is 5519 for a group of 4x TII seige launchers. á
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.02 21:16:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/06/2010 21:25:44
Originally by: Zeba That is a hell of a lot of node bandwith and processing power that just got saved especially if everyone does the math to find the optimal grouping for their weapons and groups them.
Like, ungrouped. This is artillery we're talking about. Only a idiot or someone who is lazy is going to group artillery.
Next you'll tell people who use fast-firing guns to unfit damage mods because they're causing too much server lag, lol.
I thought you were just trolling the poor guy with the group guns stuff but you're actually that daft.
Originally by: Zeba Ungrouped: Each gun uses a seperate call to the server with the server having to dedicate a process to each gun that has to be computed one after the other then sent back one after another.
I hear it's awesome programming practice to spawn a new process for every client command, did you pick that up in web programming for dummies?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.02 21:31:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/06/2010 21:35:41
Originally by: Cpt Branko Like, ungrouped. This is artillery we're talking about. Only a idiot or someone who is lazy is going to group artillery.
Next you'll tell people who use fast-firing guns to unfit damage mods because they're causing too much server lag, lol.
It's not my fault if they don't know how to properly micro manage their arty salvos and are just lazy and keep them all ungrouped. It's your lag too when the other 300 mission runners in your system do the same. *shrugs*
And why would I tell people to unfit damage mods to save on lag if it makes using them inefficient in use? Because yes a higher rate of fire does add to the overhead of a nodes performance when you add in all the other ships doing the same. That was the whole reason ccp made grouping possible so they could reduce calls to the server especially in sitations where a large number of ships are on the same node all fireing away be it a fleet fight or a crowded mission hub. There was like a whole series of dev blogs and general forum replys on zomg how much server power was recovered when everyone started grouping up their weapons. C'mon branko I thought you were not like liang and the rest.. >.>
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Zeba Ungrouped: Each gun uses a seperate call to the server with the server having to dedicate a process to each gun that has to be computed one after the other then sent back one after another.
I hear it's awesome programming practice to spawn a new process for every client command, did you pick that up in web programming for dummies?
Actually I'm not a 'web professional' so I might get the exact terms messed up now and again. Still whatever the exact terminology its a fact that going from an individual call for each gun to a single call with them grouped had an extremely positive effect on performance that even the diehard critics admited to back when fleet fights were actually fightable.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Marchocias + = +
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.06.02 21:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Grath Telkin
Originally by: Buddy Friend How far is that now?
Anyone got better?
1) your terrible, group your guns, if for no other reason than "i said so"
2) You are really bad at this game NOT to know about the overview update thats been a known issue GAME WIDE since tyrannis launched.
Its not Desynch, and by calling it desynch, it shows you have NO IDEA what that ever was.
You are a ****ing idiot, if for no other reason than "I SAID SO" Why waste a 7 gun volley to kill a ship, when it only takes one?
What overview update has anything to do with weather you group the guns or not? please elighten us ohh high a mighty troll. --
"One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic." |
Qolde
Minmatar art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.06.02 21:54:00 -
[53]
For you who say arty users should group their guns, I say fly a maelstrom for a few days then rethink your position. I know youre used to your nice little 6 second refire rate with your missiles, rails and beams, and you have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to arties. With your faster refire, yes it might be better for you to group your guns, because you're firing 2 to 3 times as fast as a Maelstrom or Mach. In fleet fights, yeah, group them to minimize lag for everyone. For missions, well, if you live in a crowded enough mission hub(i have yet to see one) and have a fast enough refire, sure group them. For an arty user, you'd be a tard to group your guns. Don't do it. Everyone else on your node will have to just accept it. There's no way you should be taking 15 seconds to kill each frigate.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Buddy Friend
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Posted - 2010.06.02 23:01:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Amateratsu
I'd be very interested to know what your skills and fittings are to get that level of damage.
That was a Mach, RF Fusion ammo, some RF gyros, lucky shot at about 60km. The character (not this one, not even the same account) has IVs and Vs in projectiles and related skills, could probably get another 5-7% more damage with more training.
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