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SomebodyKickedMyDog
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.04 20:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Sisohiv
Originally by: Kal Murmur
Originally by: Sisohiv I dont find its the time involved that makes PvP in EvE so corny. I've had long battles and insta pops. The thing I find is, its futile. I can with 100% accuracy determine if I will win or lose before the locks are made.
No you can't. I have several corpmate's that regularly take on and beat 2-4 opponents solo. Using the same ship and fitting, I would certainly die. There's a whole level of tactical flying that everyone seems to either forget about, or just not know about. Maybe if people concentrated a bit more on learning what can really be done with an Eve ship and a bit less time wanting to nerf stuff, we might be a more satisfied, happy bunch. ;)
Just a quick clarification btw, this post isnt an 'omg, I'm so l33t!' one. I don't know how the hell some of the best pvp pilots in Eve do the stuff they do and I certainly can't do it myself, but its damn impressive to watch and I'm happy to (slowly) pick up as much of it as I can. It just seems a shame that so few people seem to be willing to spend the time learning the advanced techniques, and fall into the old trap of thinking there's nothing there beyond 'lock, point, web, F1, orbit'.
It's knowing your ships, knowing thier ships. Knowing ships in EvE.
I would say there's more involved than just knowing the ship types. Other factors include how the ships are fit, the pilots' SP (more SP means higher dps, stronger tank, etc), their implants, even whether or not the pilot is using boosters. (And of course tactics).
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Tenokiro
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Posted - 2010.06.04 20:34:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Tenokiro on 04/06/2010 20:34:58 Sergei Le'Poof - You can't possibly claim that the length of a fight equals the amount of enjoyment that you will recieve. If you dislike waiting so long for fights then why not simply arrange inter-alliance fights/tournaments, or even arrange such fights with other corps/alliances through the forums.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.04 20:57:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Tenokiro Edited by: Tenokiro on 04/06/2010 20:34:58 Sergei Le'Poof - You can't possibly claim that the length of a fight equals the amount of enjoyment that you will recieve. If you dislike waiting so long for fights then why not simply arrange inter-alliance fights/tournaments, or even arrange such fights with other corps/alliances through the forums.
I would claim that.
Fun in fights increases (on average) at least quadratic with length. Proportional because longer having fun is more fun, and then another increase because longer fights are almost always more fun fights (that is if you want a fight and not just a km).
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.04 21:28:00 -
[64]
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog I would say there's more involved than just knowing the ship types. Other factors include how the ships are fit, the pilots' SP (more SP means higher dps, stronger tank, etc), their implants, even whether or not the pilot is using boosters. (And of course tactics).
independently of SP and other stuffs, only a very restrict number of ships can, indeed, be a jack-in-a-box.
if you know the ships well enough, you know that in pvp, there are only a certain number of ways to setup ship Y or Z to it's best efficiency.
xcept the domi. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.06.04 21:37:00 -
[65]
Basically, would you rather have a fun fight that you lose, or a dull fight that you win? Overwhelmingly, EVE players have chosen option two.
Of course, a lot of those players would probably prefer a fun fight, but when there's no guarantee that your opponent won't choose a sure win over fun and hotdrop / neutral RR / station hump / ECM alt / bait & blob you, it's hard to resist the temptation to get in there first.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.04 22:51:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Tenokiro Edited by: Tenokiro on 04/06/2010 20:34:58 Sergei Le'Poof - You can't possibly claim that the length of a fight equals the amount of enjoyment that you will recieve.
Well there is certainly a correlation. Don't get me wrong that 1-2 minutes fight is intense and immensely fun but is out of proportion in regards with the amount of time needed to get such a fight. This has nothing to do with patience.
Roaming around does indeed take patience and there is certain fun in the hunt in itself. However I start to wonder with increasing frequency if a whole evening (2 hours) is worth wasting away looking for that1-2 minutes of fun that may not even come. What I am saying it goes both ways -either increasing the time of fun from 1-2 minutes to more(see HP buff) or somehow decreasing the 1-2 hours time-to-fun:
-My simplistic way of increasing the 1-2 minutes fight was a hp buff. There may be better ways, some interesting ones were suggested already. I am no developer- I am trying to foster creative dialogue if the problem perceived by me is wide spread.
- If the 1-2 hours time-to-fun could be somehow decreased to say about half, that it would be an immense improvement. How to achieve that though? Somehow lure/drag/force more people to pvp? I think the only strategies that CCP followed that had limited succes in htis area was FW (which they have now stopped bothering with) and Wormholes (which encouraged small hisec corps to "claim" space, build and defend it). Live events? Battlegrounds ()?
Personally I am at a crossroad - Eve pusses me away from pvp and believe me I am not rally fond of the current pve content. The only thing that had me logging in is the market but andI ander if CCP may be nopt capitalizing a huge opportunity as that 1-2 minutes of fun is unique in Eve and something I have not experienced in an other game. This is their niche and they should find ways to enhance it and make it more easily experienced and accessible.
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:10:00 -
[67]
There is no problem with the PVP in this game.
It's an MMO for crying out loud. If you want a game that requires skill to fight other people you are in the wrong place. EVE is as good as it gets as far as PVP in an MMO is concerned. Love it and stick around or hate it and go play something that takes some skill.
Mr Epeen
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:23:00 -
[68]
Back in Delve 1 QY6 saw nearly constant skirmishes, even if each engagement only lasted a few minutes there was near constant fighting going on. So it seemed more like 1 giant battle spanning hours.
Also, I have been in fleet fights that have lasted for over an hour.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.05 00:59:00 -
[69]
Pvp in Eve is not locking, scrambling, shooting etc. Pvp in Eve is intel gathering, planning, fleet organization, etc. Once a fight has started there's really not much you can do to change the outcome.
Maybe that's the problem?
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.05 01:15:00 -
[70]
There was actually a time when CCP was seriously contemplating in making PVP more strategic and having to last longer than just pressing F1-F8.
But there was a core group of whiney "BOOM HEADSHOT HAHA" players, mostly gankers that were against it. When CCP implemented a defense buff to ships they cried and whined and I think the whole idea eventually was scrapped.
The idea was to be able to target certain systems of a ship to disable certain aspects, like engines, weapons, etc. Ships were supposed to last longer in fights. I actually liked the whole concept.
But BOOMHEADSHOTers whined that fights were taking more than 30 seconds and such.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
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Herateis
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Posted - 2010.06.05 06:06:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Herateis on 05/06/2010 06:09:04
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof PVP fights in Eve are very short. You spend 1-2 hours to get a fight and then it is over in 1-2 minutes. I think this is out of proportion and does not allow several strategic factors to play a role such cap stability and active tanking to just name two.
so you're saying its like random stranger sex.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 There was actually a time when CCP was seriously contemplating in making PVP more strategic and having to last longer than just pressing F1-F8.
But there was a core group of whiney "BOOM HEADSHOT HAHA" players, mostly gankers that were against it. When CCP implemented a defense buff to ships they cried and whined and I think the whole idea eventually was scrapped.
The idea was to be able to target certain systems of a ship to disable certain aspects, like engines, weapons, etc. Ships were supposed to last longer in fights. I actually liked the whole concept.
But BOOMHEADSHOTers whined that fights were taking more than 30 seconds and such.
I think the individual ship part targetting would be too complex, when you already have the "strategy" by different module fittings. They need to come up with a clear rock-paper-scissor element in the game. its kind of muddy right now. If they made it more intuitive, you'd see more strategtic fightss based on different module groupings.
They should increase the health of all ships 20%.
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Reangorette Bianie
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Posted - 2010.06.05 06:13:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sergei Le'Poof PVP fights in Eve are very short. You spend 1-2 hours to get a fight and then it is over in 1-2 minutes. I think this is out of proportion and does not allow several strategic factors to play a role such cap stability and active tanking to just name two.
To resolve this I think an HP buff is in order here similar to what happened for titans/super-carriers/(a dps nerf would be a nightmare to balance). This HP buff is more needed the smaller the ship class is, as for example I can not comprehend how a frigate can have less ehp than a fighter/fighter bomber. It should have to be at least similar or greater. You could take that as a base and grow hp for other classes in similar proportions.
Where would this new hp should go then? To give a little twist all of the new hp should go to structure, thus rewarding the use of damage controls by sacrificing weapon or speed upgrades. This will also not necessitate balancing of shield/armour mods and rigs.
Thoughts?
I think they all need either more manna or the tactics illustrated here: Nul Sec tactics 101
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.05 06:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Hellox1 If jumping to another sistem would randomly drop you somwhere on the outer ring, instead at the jumpgate exit spot, gatecamping would be solved.
that would also be more realistic.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.05 06:26:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: SomebodyKickedMyDog I would say there's more involved than just knowing the ship types. Other factors include how the ships are fit, the pilots' SP (more SP means higher dps, stronger tank, etc), their implants, even whether or not the pilot is using boosters. (And of course tactics).
independently of SP and other stuffs, only a very restrict number of ships can, indeed, be a jack-in-a-box.
if you know the ships well enough, you know that in pvp, there are only a certain number of ways to setup ship Y or Z to it's best efficiency.
xcept the domi.
a quit playing for a bit, and came back to the tyrannis patch, but not because of any of that gimmick marketing. I played around with EFT after taking such a long time off, andfound some surprising fits.
Additionally, if there were more slots to ships than they can fit via PG and CPU, then you can make different and more interesting choices about fits, such as a lot of low fitting cost items to do a lot of things, or a few high fitting cost items to specialize in few things. that would be very interesting.
IMO, frigates need +2 fit slots to their main tank form, +1 fit slot to their auxiliary slotting, such as mid for gallente or low for caldari.
Then you'd see more interesting tactical setups, and so on. leave the PG and CPU the same on all these ships, as this limits their DPS/tank, but they can put on other modules with low requirements to give even more abilities to be useful.
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Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.06.05 09:46:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ekrid
IMO, frigates need +2 fit slots to their main tank form, +1 fit slot to their auxiliary slotting, such as mid for gallente or low for caldari.
Then you'd see more interesting tactical setups, and so on. leave the PG and CPU the same on all these ships, as this limits their DPS/tank, but they can put on other modules with low requirements to give even more abilities to be useful.
That is not a bad idea at all. This could work instead of a general hp buff. Interesting...
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.05 10:40:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Grimpak on 05/06/2010 10:40:49
Originally by: Herateis They should increase the health of all ships 20%.
and then you would have the very same indirect nerf that we need 3-4 years to fix.
you can't even fathom what the HP buff nerfed, so let's just use one argument about it: Alpha-strike based weaponary was totally nerfed (read artilleries), and you know how much it took to fix them.
edit: I do agree with probably adding a few more slots here and there on the friggies tho. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.06.05 10:57:00 -
[77]
Haven't read all of the thread, but the reason why there shouldn't be a hp buff is that it would ruin solo'ing and fast action even more. The longer fights last, the more chance to get other people in on both sides. Just imagine someone being able to say 'help I'm in trouble 5 jumps away' and then just relax until his buddies arrive. This is already happening to some extent, let's not make it worse.
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2010.06.05 10:58:00 -
[78]
remove stacking penality from all modules, so the ships will be able to field more powerful tank.
:D
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:18:00 -
[79]
Originally by: To mare remove stacking penality from all modules, so the ships will be able to field more powerful tank.
:D
and then the return of the gankageddon.
and the tempest with full rack of gyros ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2010.06.05 11:32:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: To mare remove stacking penality from all modules, so the ships will be able to field more powerful tank.
:D
and then the return of the gankageddon.
and the tempest with full rack of gyros
that was the point
also you forgot the typhoon and domi filled with nanos
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Drakonium
Sublime Tactic
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Posted - 2010.06.05 12:31:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Drakonium on 05/06/2010 12:32:41 I would love to see fights last longer too.
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Anastasia DC
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.05 12:38:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Anastasia DC on 05/06/2010 12:41:45 Want longer fights with fewer jumps? See below.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1330948
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.05 12:40:00 -
[83]
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: To mare remove stacking penality from all modules, so the ships will be able to field more powerful tank.
:D
and then the return of the gankageddon.
and the tempest with full rack of gyros
that was the point
also you forgot the typhoon and domi filled with nanos
you dont have to remove the stacking penalties from EVERYTHING - just the HP mods, so gankageddons and nanogeddons would still not be possible. but meh, the BOOMHEADSHOTers would have ***** attacks.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2010.06.05 16:03:00 -
[84]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: To mare remove stacking penality from all modules, so the ships will be able to field more powerful tank.
:D
and then the return of the gankageddon.
and the tempest with full rack of gyros
that was the point
also you forgot the typhoon and domi filled with nanos
you dont have to remove the stacking penalties from EVERYTHING - just the HP mods, so gankageddons and nanogeddons would still not be possible. but meh, the BOOMHEADSHOTers would have ***** attacks.
everything or nothing. boosting tank leaving gank the same would totally imbalanced.
ps: never considered that a gankageddon have 0 (zero) tank?
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.05 16:55:00 -
[85]
very uneven fights end predictably quickly, very even fights can go on for quite some time, especially with larger buffer ships and active tank vessels.
The only real "issue" with EVE in my opinion is that there is no counter for "bring the most ships". There is no strategem you can use (in low sec at least) to discourage the use of a giant tightly packed blob of as many ships as you can muster.
Heavy bombers and bombs in low-sec might alleviate this somewhat.
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