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Wallymarts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Wallymarts on 04/06/2010 00:37:02 Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it. I know that a BPO takes a LONG time to pay off, and im better off with BPC's and running 5 at a time, to increase production, but how the hell do you guys do it?!
Do most big Manufacturers have haulers?! (Charons etc etc)
I want to do it, but its so tough to make money :(
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darkneko
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:40:00 -
[2]
most of us dont work alone
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:42:00 -
[3]
Originally by: darkneko most of us dont work alone
Does 37 alt accounts still count as alone?
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Wallymarts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:44:00 -
[4]
Originally by: darkneko most of us dont work alone
That might be the problem. Not sure how a group of people would help an manufacturing operation, but im open to theory :D
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:53:00 -
[5]
A group of miners mines for minerals and then manufacturing happens.
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Wallymarts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 00:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mr LaForge A group of miners mines for minerals and then manufacturing happens.
but i could just buy it all....
Maybe a corp with a POS to do ME/PL + Copying would be good.
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Qel Hoth
Visionary Explorers
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Posted - 2010.06.04 01:12:00 -
[7]
The main problem, especially with t1 stuff, are the "the minerals I mine are free" idiots. ----- The above does not represent the opinions of my corp or alliance. |
Sky Mart
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Posted - 2010.06.04 02:21:00 -
[8]
The problem with this logic is you don't take into account that it is a game and people play for fun. IF max ISK for one's time is the goal, no one would PVP as you would take a loss on a ship you loose and therefore, you would only PVE with the best missions/Rats/anomolies you could find. If time equals ISK it is impossible to believe anyone would PVP. Now people do PVP and take the LOSS because it is FUN.
If you mine and manufacture for FUN and you end up with more ISK at the end than you had when you started you technically made a profit...could you have made more...yes....did you take a loss...no.
Is it STUPID to sell for less than max profit...if you enjoyed your game I think not.
I've never met a single person yet that thought "I mined it so it's free". I have met people that are willing to value it at less than someone else for many reasons. Think about this scenario....If I mine lots of minerals...and I have a freighter to move it....and the best price is "WAY OVER THERE" I can move it or if I could sell it here at say a 20% loss over the price I could get "Way over there". So i could loose the time traveling which will cost me ISK(as transport costs me time that could have been spent mining to make ISK).. or I could do the smarter thing and build something here that I can undercut the market by say 10% as a way to sell my minerals and get paid faster and spend more time mining which nets me more ISK. If I can mine enough in the time I would have spent hauling to cover the 10% hit I'd take by NOT hauling it then I sold it below one's expected cost but made the same ISK/HR of play time as I would have hauling "way over there" for the best price....plus I didn't need to have spent the capital to buy a freighter. So here "selling at a loss" could make you more than you would have selling the minerals if you were willing to build and sell at a 5% loss assuming all other conditions equal. It is all in perspective of the one doing the activity.
Or to look at it another way...if you do a level one mission your taking a loss...because you could have been doing a level 4 and made more... see how silly that sounds.
If they sell it at what you think is a loss, be smart and buy it up
I know they talk about "I mine it so it is free" on these Boards a lot. But remember, that if you tell a lie often enough and long enough eventually people will start to believe it that is why they do it. I'm convinced the ones that started that line are the same one's selling at a perceived loss and laughing all the way to the bank.
The real issue is supply and demand...T1 has a huge supply as all the "new" guys can do it...more supply than demand and price drops till profit is almost nil and that is before you factor in previously that ratters flooded the market with T1 drops from loot once that is factored in the price goes low enough you start hearing the "mined minerals are free crowd". What they should be saying is Loot drops are FREE. As you get more into production you'll find items that you can make money on. My current one I can sell for twice what the materials cost me to buy on sell orders...once I start getting with buy orders my profit will increase even more. Best way to find a niche market...think supply/demand.... Also remember everyone else is also looking for something to make a profit on so it is a constant search. After all if you found it, eventually someone else will and most likely undercut you so their stuff sells before yours. So don't get stuck in I can make this forever for tons of profit...instead find a niche, exploit it, but don't get too attached....
Remember in real life people made ton's of cash selling "pet rocks" and "farts in a can" etc. However, they were smart enough to not tie a lot up in inventory so when the market dried up then weren't left with a ton of unsaleable stuff.
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Sky Mart
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Posted - 2010.06.04 02:28:00 -
[9]
Do you need your own Charon...no, not if your willing to share some profit with someone else to do your hauling for you. Is it helpful to own, I think mine is.
I can run 10 production slots at my skill level on 1 character, and still run 9 invention jobs at the same time. Couple of mil an hour x 10 slots, times all the hours I'm not playing but my production runs are in process adds up.
Actually BPO's can start paying off within hours of purchase... you only need ME0 copies for invention...you get a -4 ME T2 BPC from a copy of a 0 ME BPC and you get a -4 ME T2 BPC from a copy of a 3000 ME BPC...you only need to research the BPO if you plan to produce the T1 product. You do need a way to make copies though for invention. Copies in NPC stations are a long wait though, this is where a POS comes in handy.
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.06.04 03:23:00 -
[10]
umm yea we use charon lots but if you don't have one try red frog freight service it works just as well its just lil slow. knowledge is power |
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.06.04 04:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wallymarts Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it.
Whoa there buddy... 2 mil per hour times 11 manufacture lines times 24 hours per day times 30 days per month makes... *drumroll*... 15.84 BILLION ISK/MONTH PER CHARACTER !!! If you find some items that can make you 2 mil ISK/hour, you should be thanking the gods they were oh so sweet and merciful and whatnot so nobody else noticed those items before you. A much more reasonable estimate would be something around a maximum of 5 bil ISK/month per character if you're quite damn lucky and you're also manufacturing stuff with rather expensive blueprints. Most people would consider it a decently good deal even if it would be just under 1 bil per month per character.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.06.04 05:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Wallymarts Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it. I know that a BPO takes a LONG time to pay off, and im better off with BPC's and running 5 at a time, to increase production, but how the hell do you guys do it?!
Do most big Manufacturers have haulers?! (Charons etc etc)
I want to do it, but its so tough to make money :(
You either do have your own freighter, you use courier contracts or you use large volume buy orders, or all three together.
Some corporations organize mining operations where all their noobs go mining, then get paid poorly in ISK and their boss gets all the ore. --
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Ralle030583
Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.06.04 08:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Wallymarts Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it.
Whoa there buddy... 2 mil per hour times 11 manufacture lines times 24 hours per day times 30 days per month makes... *drumroll*... 15.84 BILLION ISK/MONTH PER CHARACTER !!! If you find some items that can make you 2 mil ISK/hour, you should be thanking the gods they were oh so sweet and merciful and whatnot so nobody else noticed those items before you. ...
it always scare me to see what Akita find in posts... i would be lucky with a 2m/h item to produce.. oO
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Qoi
New Eden Warriors
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Posted - 2010.06.04 08:32:00 -
[14]
we do it very slow but rhythmic
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Qoi we do it very slow but rhythmic
Go on.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Qoi we do it very slow but rhythmic
Go on.
With the occasional shifting and repositioning. It can be compared to mining. --
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Nobzy
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Posted - 2010.06.04 09:32:00 -
[17]
Akita T already answered your question, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
When I got in to manufacturing, I was at a loss like yourself, as to how do the bigshots do it. I was looking at the market and the material requirements the wrong way. I was looking for a huge profit in one run of items.
The truth only became apparent later, when I realized the exactly same thing Akita T just told you, you have 11 skill slots, and lots of time.
If you find that meager margin, multiply it by 11, and the amount you can build them, say, in a week. And there's your profit.
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Wallymarts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 10:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Wallymarts Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it.
Whoa there buddy... 2 mil per hour times 11 manufacture lines times 24 hours per day times 30 days per month makes... *drumroll*... 15.84 BILLION ISK/MONTH PER CHARACTER !!! If you find some items that can make you 2 mil ISK/hour, you should be thanking the gods they were oh so sweet and merciful and whatnot so nobody else noticed those items before you. A much more reasonable estimate would be something around a maximum of 5 bil ISK/month per character if you're quite damn lucky and you're also manufacturing stuff with rather expensive blueprints. Most people would consider it a decently good deal even if it would be just under 1 bil per month per character.
AH, well then, i should keep to myself and not let anyone know, lol.
And, people are ALWAYS buying this item too, maybe ill be the next big high roller.
Thank you everyone for your support.
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William Mill3r
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Posted - 2010.06.04 12:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: darkneko most of us dont work alone
Does 37 alt accounts still count as alone?
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Ritzenhoff
Gallente Ritzenhoff Industrial Design
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Wallymarts Edited by: Wallymarts on 04/06/2010 00:37:02 Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it. I know that a BPO takes a LONG time to pay off, and im better off with BPC's and running 5 at a time, to increase production, but how the hell do you guys do it?!
Do most big Manufacturers have haulers?! (Charons etc etc)
I want to do it, but its so tough to make money :(
Couple of million isk/hour would be wonderful - I take it that's revenue rather than profit though, right?
Sounds like you're doing it fine, anyway. Manufacturing isn't one of those things you have o be at the keyboard to do, I've always got various jobs on the go. One big minerals/materials purchase and transportation once a month, a few trips to sell the manufactured items at hubs, reasonable (although in my case relatively small scale) bit of extra isk for what is very little effort once you have your operations set up smoothly. Main thing is to do yor research in the first place and find profitable items, and don't confuse profit and revenues.
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Wallymarts
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Posted - 2010.06.04 14:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ritzenhoff
Originally by: Wallymarts Edited by: Wallymarts on 04/06/2010 00:37:02 Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it. I know that a BPO takes a LONG time to pay off, and im better off with BPC's and running 5 at a time, to increase production, but how the hell do you guys do it?!
Do most big Manufacturers have haulers?! (Charons etc etc)
I want to do it, but its so tough to make money :(
Couple of million isk/hour would be wonderful - I take it that's revenue rather than profit though, right?
Sounds like you're doing it fine, anyway. Manufacturing isn't one of those things you have o be at the keyboard to do, I've always got various jobs on the go. One big minerals/materials purchase and transportation once a month, a few trips to sell the manufactured items at hubs, reasonable (although in my case relatively small scale) bit of extra isk for what is very little effort once you have your operations set up smoothly. Main thing is to do yor research in the first place and find profitable items, and don't confuse profit and revenues.
Thats Profit, taking into account jita mineral prices, and BPC cost, + installation/duration.
Ive got about 5 items that make anywhere from 1-3 mil in pure profit, and move an average of 100-500 a day in Jita, I can make more money moving it out in bumslum eden, but that takes money, and my time is money :) And thats with PE 4, ofcourse id make 4% more once i get it to 5.
I was thinking of doing retrievers, since they are selling like hotcakes, but, they are low profit :(
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Elldranga
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Posted - 2010.06.04 16:35:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Elldranga on 04/06/2010 16:37:47
Originally by: Qel Hoth The main problem, especially with t1 stuff, are the "the minerals I mine are free" idiots.
Yeah, people can be pretty stupid with their asking prices, or at least more worried about their convenience then their profit. It occurs enough that it impacts market values rather than just being an occasional profit for someone who's paying attention.
That said, it CAN be more profitable to mine/manufacture than to just buy and manufacture. It really depends on your local market, your local opportunities, etc.
Edit: to Skymart, I'm afraid there really are people out there who do argue that the minerals are free. It's not suprising actually, because you find some similar types of foolishness in real life too in some businesses.
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Nahkep Narmelion
Gallente CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
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Posted - 2010.06.04 16:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Qel Hoth The main problem, especially with t1 stuff, are the "the minerals I mine are free" idiots.
No kidding, there is a mammoth thread in Market Discussions that has gotten into that. Even forum regulars who I thought were well past the notion of opportunity cost are having lots of trouble.
Bottom line. You do not have infinite amounts of time. Thus, time you do have is scarce. Scarce items usually have a price (either explicit [i.e. a wage] or implicit price [forgone opportunities]) greater than zero.
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Ritzenhoff
Gallente Ritzenhoff Industrial Design
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Wallymarts Thats Profit, taking into account jita mineral prices, and BPC cost, + installation/duration.
Ive got about 5 items that make anywhere from 1-3 mil in pure profit, and move an average of 100-500 a day in Jita, I can make more money moving it out in bumslum eden, but that takes money, and my time is money :) And thats with PE 4, ofcourse id make 4% more once i get it to 5.
I was thinking of doing retrievers, since they are selling like hotcakes, but, they are low profit :(
Then you are doing it right
Get your PE up to 5, you are onto a winner.
I must admit I haven't worked out my profits on a per hour basis, but 1-3m/hour sounds pretty good to me. And yeah, ships tend to be a bit rubbish for profits, although I have a couple of BPOS which do OK, but the modules have better margins and are faster to produce. I tend to only make ships when I want one (make more than I need and sell the others) or when I am heavily overstocked on low-end minerals which ships need in bulk, and it's easier (and there's still profits) to shift the ships than in dumping the minerals on the market.
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Arthur Frayn
Edurus Erectus
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Posted - 2010.06.04 17:53:00 -
[25]
Build T2 ships. They're the first things I started building when I got into production. Training the skills only took me a month. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
ZeeOhSix
Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics
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Posted - 2010.06.04 20:10:00 -
[26]
Sometimes I think the folks that have made the transition to industrialists forget what it was like to get started :)
The journey is pretty interesting. The first phase is finding out that even with the right skills, etc. there are more ways to lose money than make it. I bought a set of researched BPOs thinking "Well, they're researched and I have PE V, so I can make at least a bit of money on all of 'em!". Nope. So I cranked the ones that were profitable pretty hard and made some ISK - sometimes 3-4M for a week's run. Bought a few more BPOs, doing the research to find out where I could make ISK. Started experiementing with T2 and finally reached a point where I'm making (what I consider) good money.
The cool thing is that there's no end in site...start by making ammo, end by making...anything.
So if you're starting in T1 stuff, it is kinda all about a) quantity, b) production capacity/efficiency and c) getting the right prices. At the peak of my T1 manufacture, I was buying a couple of freighters/week of materials and a couple back to a hub using Red Frog.
Not sure any of this is helpful, just one guy's perspective.
The business of EVE is business!
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Diraus Omega
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Posted - 2010.06.04 21:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Wallymarts Edited by: Wallymarts on 04/06/2010 00:37:02 Ive been running the numbers for a couple things, and nothing seems to make more then a couple mil an hour when you are producing it. I know that a BPO takes a LONG time to pay off, and im better off with BPC's and running 5 at a time, to increase production, but how the hell do you guys do it?!
Do most big Manufacturers have haulers?! (Charons etc etc)
I want to do it, but its so tough to make money :(
you do know that if you have 1 production line making a couple of mil an hour pumping out stuff for the full month gives you a profit of 1.44 billion. not a bad income.
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Gordon Fell
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Posted - 2010.06.06 11:36:00 -
[28]
There are other neat tricks, like slapping some production arrays on your POS; these come with 0.75 time multipliers (and if I'm not mistaken, the tech I ones multiply material requirement by 1.0). This can add up very nicely when doing larger amounts of ammunition.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.06 21:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: darkneko most of us dont work alone
Does 37 alt accounts still count as alone?
Yes, in fact the more alts the more alone you are!
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Grikath
SWARTA Mostly Clueless
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Posted - 2010.06.07 00:34:00 -
[30]
Elementary economics misses in the OP's post...
[price of 1 PLEX] / [days in month] = [min amount to play for "free" for a month] in net profits on any endeavour in EVE.
If his net profit is already at several mil an *hour* he easily makes the minimum amount needed to play for "free" *and* do something like solid expansion.. If he chooses to pay for his account the traditional way, he will have > 300 mil a month free to re-invest.
I don't see the problem here.
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