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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Davoidd
Caldari New Hanseatic Holdings New Hanseatic League
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Posted - 2010.06.06 11:34:00 -
[1]
So, this might really be a noobish question but still i'm gonna ask it
Is there a downside to grouping weapons? I mean, apart from the fact it looks less cooler but, when your enemy uses defender missiles and stuff?
Davoidd
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 11:36:00 -
[2]
I'm no expert, but when I ran missions in a Drake, I used to group my launchers. However they do have a reload time and as such they would all reload with the same delay. This sometimes gave some NPCs time to recharge shields or armor... So I figured it might be better to fire each launcher shortly after one another to keeo the rain of damage going on the ship. That's what I saw as disadvanatage.
Apply | Sigs
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Phaedra Stargazer
Minmatar Rising Sun Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 12:03:00 -
[3]
There's one disadvantage the way I see it.
If during a mission I'm shooting smaller targets with my Maelstrom I can often alpha them with a couple of guns together. Should they all be grouped together I would waste something like half a volley. Therefore I divided them in 2 groups, a bit more flexible but still not too much micromanagement.
During PVP this is less of a problem I guess since you'll always want to concentrate your firepower on one target longer than 1 volley.
Phaedra
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.06 12:08:00 -
[4]
The question is far from noobish
If I am running mission or PvPing in a Zealot/Ishtar with pulses/blasters then the ROF is so fast that there is no significant downside to having all weapons grouped. This changes as you move up in ship size and weapon class, more so for PvE rather than PvP as the ROF on Tachyons, if you are firing a full weapon group at a smaller target, wastes a lot more time when a gun or two will generally melt most frigates.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Donatella D'Tren
Harbingers of Chaos Inc. Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.06.06 12:20:00 -
[5]
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you use missiles in PVE each volley shot has a chance to be hit by defender missiles from the target (if they have them). Also targets can only use 1 defender volley per cycle. So ungrouping your launchers gives you higher DPS overall as each individual missile has a lower chance of being defended against.
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Davoidd
Caldari New Hanseatic Holdings New Hanseatic League
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Posted - 2010.06.06 12:26:00 -
[6]
So, there are 2 downsides?
- when shooting smaller targets you could waste your folley, depending on enemy ehp - when using your weapons separately there is a smaller chance of getting hit by defenders, tho this doesn't make sense.. a defender missile should only destroy 1 attack missile right? It's not that when using say 6 launcher in one group the defender destroys the whole group?
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Jack bubu
Lyonesse. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.06 12:43:00 -
[7]
There is another downside if you are in large fleetbattles.
When lag hits, weapons tend to get stuck in their cylce and if they are grouped the whole group will get stuck instead of only one weapon..
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:06:00 -
[8]
Regarding defender missiles.
I may be mistaken but I think defender missiles can actually hit and destroy part of a grouped volley. So in a case of 6 launchers grouped, the defenders may destroy 2 missiles of the group and let 4 missiles pass.
If I'm correct in this it shouldn't make much of a difference to defender missiles whether launchers are grouped or not.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:13:00 -
[9]
Regarding defenders: In pvp it increases the effectiveness of defenders. They will all go to the missile group heading your way, they will all hit and take one missile out (depending on missile size), while otherwise they all go straight for the closest one and ignore the 5 friends following that missile. However except 3 falcon pilots no one uses defender missiles in pvp, so doesnt really matter.
NPCs have a set chance to fire a defender missile, one defender missile will take out one missile you fired (except torps, they are immune), and if it hits a missile group it removes one missile from that group. (So 6 rocket launchers grouped, you fire, npc fires defender, then the missile group does for 5 missiles damage instead of 6). It depends on npcs, but the trigger happy ones have around 20% chance to shoot a defender missile. So against a CNR with 7 launchers it will most likely shoot 1.4 defender missile per volley, when grouped it can only fire one defender missile -> you lose less dps. Additionally i am pretty sure the chance it fires a defender missile increases against a missile group, but not all that much. So lets say it becomes 40% or so, then on average against a CNR it will fire 0.4 defender missiles instead of 1.4 defender missiles. They take out same amount of damage, so you effectively gain another missile launcher compared to ungrouped CNR.
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Sefredius Mengsk
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:22:00 -
[10]
The Lag. Why cant anyone think about the lag??
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 13:26:00 -
[11]
Heat management can also be an issue with grouped weapons.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 00:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jack bubu There is another downside if you are in large fleetbattles.
When lag hits, weapons tend to get stuck in their cylce and if they are grouped the whole group will get stuck instead of only one weapon..
Yeah but instead of the server having to to do just 1 volley calculation, it ends up having to do 8 single-gun calculations. So by not grouping you are increasing the lag on the server for you and everyone else, thereby increasing the chance of your mods locking up
Though I can see one side *cough* the defenders *cough* purposefully ungrouping their weapons and lagging out the system, giving themselves an even larger advantage over the attackers.
Originally by: Marko Riva Heat management can also be an issue with grouped weapons.
Actually grouping provides an advantage to overheating I think. If you overheat a rack of ungrouped modules the ones in the middle will burn out first, reducing your damage the longer you overload. While grouped mods can all suffer the same, higher amount of damage, without having to worry about individual weapon failure.
So you can keep the rack overloaded longer without having to worry about weapons burning out, increasing the time you can stay overloaded.
Whats wrong with frigates? |
Hait
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Posted - 2010.06.07 01:53:00 -
[13]
Another potential problem is with faction/t2 crystals in lasers. If you have all guns grouped and one crystal breaks the entire group cannot be fired till it's reloaded; which can be an issue if you've run out of spares. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.06.07 02:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: ghosttr
Yeah but instead of the server having to to do just 1 volley calculation, it ends up having to do 8 single-gun calculations. So by not grouping you are increasing the lag on the server for you and everyone else, thereby increasing the chance of your mods locking up
What is your point? Grouping weapons means that you will be completely unable to shoot for the rest of the fight, and so will anyone else who was dumb enough to group their weapons too. If your alliance uses weapon grouping, you will lose every. single. fight. with next to zero kills.
Nobody cares whether it increases lag slightly. If you're using grouped weapons, you're going to lose the fight. Same goes for auto repeat. Sure, it's putting more load on the server if you set auto repeat off on all your ungrouped guns and start deactivating them manually. But if it's the only way to do consistent damage nobody will care.
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Ryhss
Caldari Victory Fleet Systems C.H.A.L.I.C.E.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Donatella D'Tren Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you use missiles in PVE each volley shot has a chance to be hit by defender missiles from the target (if they have them). Also targets can only use 1 defender volley per cycle. So ungrouping your launchers gives you higher DPS overall as each individual missile has a lower chance of being defended against.
That's what I think too.
Originally by: Abrazzar I don't know what's going on but I am terribly upset about it.
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ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: ghosttr
Yeah but instead of the server having to to do just 1 volley calculation, it ends up having to do 8 single-gun calculations. So by not grouping you are increasing the lag on the server for you and everyone else, thereby increasing the chance of your mods locking up
What is your point? Grouping weapons means that you will be completely unable to shoot for the rest of the fight, and so will anyone else who was dumb enough to group their weapons too. If your alliance uses weapon grouping, you will lose every. single. fight. with next to zero kills.
Nobody cares whether it increases lag slightly. If you're using grouped weapons, you're going to lose the fight. Same goes for auto repeat. Sure, it's putting more load on the server if you set auto repeat off on all your ungrouped guns and start deactivating them manually. But if it's the only way to do consistent damage nobody will care.
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu. Whats wrong with frigates? |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.06.07 03:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: ghosttr
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
LOL
Haven't done a major blob fight(400+) post tyrannis. But cycling was definitely a problem in Dominion. Went through a two hour fight firing three salvos because i grouped my guns. Never flew into a blob with guns grouped after that. Worst that happened after that was one gun out of 8 would cycle infinitely.
As for grouping helping lag... Let me introduce to you this thing known as Game Theory
and further more why do i even need a sig? |
ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 04:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: ghosttr
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
LOL
Haven't done a major blob fight(400+) post tyrannis. But cycling was definitely a problem in Dominion. Went through a two hour fight firing three salvos because i grouped my guns. Never flew into a blob with guns grouped after that. Worst that happened after that was one gun out of 8 would cycle infinitely.
As for grouping helping lag... Let me introduce to you this thing known as Game Theory
So basically its myth, and you know it, but your following it because you got lucky a few times
Actually, luck is all it is.
Under lagged conditions your guns firing works kind of like a dice roll. In that being the chance that the server processes your guns damage calculations. With 1 group acting as 1 calculation there is a set chance that your damage will be processed. But with more guns, and less chance with each, your betting on at least 1 of those working.
Which would actually make sense And statistically you would have a better chance of getting some dps through.
Now depending on the number of people there should be a point where everybody processing 8 weapons firing instead of 1 would reduce the chance on each gun to such an extent where group firing would reduce lag enough (between many people) to be more effective overall.
Prospecting! |
Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.07 05:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: ghosttr
Originally by: Batolemaeus
Originally by: ghosttr
Yeah but instead of the server having to to do just 1 volley calculation, it ends up having to do 8 single-gun calculations. So by not grouping you are increasing the lag on the server for you and everyone else, thereby increasing the chance of your mods locking up
What is your point? Grouping weapons means that you will be completely unable to shoot for the rest of the fight, and so will anyone else who was dumb enough to group their weapons too. If your alliance uses weapon grouping, you will lose every. single. fight. with next to zero kills.
Nobody cares whether it increases lag slightly. If you're using grouped weapons, you're going to lose the fight. Same goes for auto repeat. Sure, it's putting more load on the server if you set auto repeat off on all your ungrouped guns and start deactivating them manually. But if it's the only way to do consistent damage nobody will care.
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
Maybe someone at CCP should have told that to the saved fittings screen designer in the last patch. It's the only mission change that really annoys me, the rest I don't care about.
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Ziven0x
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.07 06:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: ghosttr
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: ghosttr
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
LOL
Haven't done a major blob fight(400+) post tyrannis. But cycling was definitely a problem in Dominion. Went through a two hour fight firing three salvos because i grouped my guns. Never flew into a blob with guns grouped after that. Worst that happened after that was one gun out of 8 would cycle infinitely.
As for grouping helping lag... Let me introduce to you this thing known as Game Theory
So basically its myth, and you know it, but your following it because you got lucky a few times
Actually, luck is all it is.
Under lagged conditions your guns firing works kind of like a dice roll. In that being the chance that the server processes your guns damage calculations. With 1 group acting as 1 calculation there is a set chance that your damage will be processed. But with more guns, and less chance with each, your betting on at least 1 of those working.
Which would actually make sense And statistically you would have a better chance of getting some dps through.
Now depending on the number of people there should be a point where everybody processing 8 weapons firing instead of 1 would reduce the chance on each gun to such an extent where group firing would reduce lag enough (between many people) to be more effective overall.
It would really be great if it actually worked that way, but you go ahead and group your weapons and watch that once cycle for 2 hours and I will upgroup them and continue to do 90% of my damage the entire time.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.06.07 06:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: ghosttr
Under lagged conditions your guns firing works kind of like a dice roll. In that being the chance that the server processes your guns damage calculations. With 1 group acting as 1 calculation there is a set chance that your damage will be processed. But with more guns, and less chance with each, your betting on at least 1 of those working.
I see you have absolutely no clue of how Eve works, how Lag works and how Battles work. It has been proven in dozens of large scale battles that entire groups of guns become stuck when a locked target dies with guns still cycling. You can't rewarp after every volley just to be able to shoot once. It's a proven fact that ungrouped guns with auto repeat off are able to put out substantially more dps than any other setup. If you had any clue you'd know what happened to a certain inexperienced WI capfleet that didn't know about those bugs. You'd also know that grouped guns don't inherit changes to the auto repeat setting from their parent, making it impossible to put consistent dps on a target even after breaking the group, since all but one will still be set to auto repeat and stuck until the pilot does a session change.
I wish you good luck with grouping in lag, you'll need it.
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ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 06:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ziven0x
Originally by: ghosttr
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: ghosttr
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
LOL
Haven't done a major blob fight(400+) post tyrannis. But cycling was definitely a problem in Dominion. Went through a two hour fight firing three salvos because i grouped my guns. Never flew into a blob with guns grouped after that. Worst that happened after that was one gun out of 8 would cycle infinitely.
As for grouping helping lag... Let me introduce to you this thing known as Game Theory
So basically its myth, and you know it, but your following it because you got lucky a few times
Actually, luck is all it is.
Under lagged conditions your guns firing works kind of like a dice roll. In that being the chance that the server processes your guns damage calculations. With 1 group acting as 1 calculation there is a set chance that your damage will be processed. But with more guns, and less chance with each, your betting on at least 1 of those working.
Which would actually make sense And statistically you would have a better chance of getting some dps through.
Now depending on the number of people there should be a point where everybody processing 8 weapons firing instead of 1 would reduce the chance on each gun to such an extent where group firing would reduce lag enough (between many people) to be more effective overall.
It would really be great if it actually worked that way, but you go ahead and group your weapons and watch that once cycle for 2 hours and I will upgroup them and continue to do 90% of my damage the entire time.
Did you even bother reading my post
Just in case let me reiterate myself.
I said that under load situations the chance of your weapons firing becomes like a dice roll. In other words, its by chance if your weapon gets to fire or not.
Weapon grouping, reduces load on the server increasing your roll for the group. And individual firing increases load on the server, giving you more rolls, but with less chance each.
Statistically the more rolls you get the better chance you have of firing.
Now this effect for 1 player is not all that much, but the larger the group the more the server has to work, creating more lag especially when nobody is grouping weapons.
So for examples sake, lets say we have a 200v200 fight. If all these players are using grouped weapons the server is having to make 400 damage calculations. And it can handle at most 300 damage calculations, you have a 75% chance of your 1 weapon group working properly. BUT if everybody is packing 6 guns, and only half the people are grouping you have the server trying to make 1200 damage calculations, and if its max is 300, you get 6 25% chances of having 1 of your weapons work if your aren't grouping. Vs just a single 25% chance if you are grouping.
Understand?
Or do I have to simplify it even more? Prospecting! |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.07 06:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: ghosttr
Originally by: Culmen
Originally by: ghosttr
Increases lag slightly, lol. If each ship has 8 guns ungrouped then thats 8x the load the server is having to handle. And manually activating guns also increases the load, although by a smaller amount.
Dont know where you got this (mis)information, but surely sounds like an eve myth to me.
Why do you think the devs want us to group weapons? Why do you think that all the mass testing on sisi asks you to group weapons? Its not for ****s and giggles, it helps reduce the lag, by a substantial amount even.
If for some reason you still believe that nonsense proof or stfu.
LOL
Haven't done a major blob fight(400+) post tyrannis. But cycling was definitely a problem in Dominion. Went through a two hour fight firing three salvos because i grouped my guns. Never flew into a blob with guns grouped after that. Worst that happened after that was one gun out of 8 would cycle infinitely.
As for grouping helping lag... Let me introduce to you this thing known as Game Theory
So basically its myth, and you know it, but your following it because you got lucky a few times
Actually, luck is all it is.
Under lagged conditions your guns firing works kind of like a dice roll. In that being the chance that the server processes your guns damage calculations. With 1 group acting as 1 calculation there is a set chance that your damage will be processed. But with more guns, and less chance with each, your betting on at least 1 of those working.
Which would actually make sense And statistically you would have a better chance of getting some dps through.
Now depending on the number of people there should be a point where everybody processing 8 weapons firing instead of 1 would reduce the chance on each gun to such an extent where group firing would reduce lag enough (between many people) to be more effective overall.
Only an idiot would go in to a heavy lag situation with their weapons grouped. If you're concerned about lag, then just dont join the fight- that will help a lot more than you sitting in the lagged system frantically pressing F1 and swearing but at least feeling good that your one successful volley in 3 hours contributed less lag.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.06.07 08:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ekrid on 07/06/2010 08:49:03
Originally by: Jack bubu There is another downside if you are in large fleetbattles.
When lag hits, weapons tend to get stuck in their cylce and if they are grouped the whole group will get stuck instead of only one weapon..
as missiles are actually explosions of a certain radius, and grouped missiles all fire exactly the same time, the 1 defender will take out all the missiles. Missiles don't explode on contact but on proximity.
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CCP Gangleri
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.07 09:16:00 -
[25]
Edited by: CCP Gangleri on 07/06/2010 09:17:59
Originally by: Ryhss
Originally by: Donatella D'Tren Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when you use missiles in PVE each volley shot has a chance to be hit by defender missiles from the target (if they have them). Also targets can only use 1 defender volley per cycle. So ungrouping your launchers gives you higher DPS overall as each individual missile has a lower chance of being defended against.
That's what I think too.
This is not how it works. A defender missile hitting a group of missiles will reduce the group by one, it will not take out the entire group. ------------------ Tester, Scrum Master Quality Assurance
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.07 09:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ekrid as missiles are actually explosions of a certain radius,
ābut they're not area-o-effect weapons, so no, they don't destroy more than one missile a pop. Against grouped missiles, they reduce the damage count for that blob by 1 missile, just as if they had all been fired separately and one of them got nicked by a defender.
(Unless we're talking about sturdier missile types such as torps and capital missiles, in which case you need four defenders to kill one missile, and in those cases, the same amount of defenders is still required to reduce the damage of a grouped missile swarm). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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