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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.06.08 23:31:00 -
[1]
With respect, Ankhesentapemkah could likely reduce (though not eliminate) some of the sentiment arrayed against her by looking for ways to work with the CSM and improve current processes rather than go it alone in parallel. From the minutes:
Quote: Ankhesentapemkah agreed with Dierdra but stated the secretary had the main privileges to do those things. Ankh complained that if she did things on her own accord with the wiki, then she would get the blame if anyone disagreed, adding that someone else would get the credit if she did things right. Ankh continued that she would unfortunately have to set up her own initiative and bypass the CSM for now and that if CSM5 liked what she did it could be adopted.
I definitely do not belong to the anti-Ankh camp, but after reading these minutes, I can understand why it exists far more than before. Her suggestions regarding links to issues and whatnot seem like good ones, but as the CSM pages don't appear to be moderated, nothing prevents her (nor, technically, any other player) from working to improve things in their current state.
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Alticius Espionicus
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Posted - 2010.06.09 00:17:00 -
[2]
Ankh's number one priority is not the CSM. It is Ankh.
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.06.09 01:48:00 -
[3]
Casiella,
You may well be right. Still, a gentle caution not to jump the gun here.
Most of the CSM represents a narrow range of special interests, Mynxee acknowledges an anti-Ank sentiment, and we've little idea of the neutrality (i.e. absence of political bias) of these meeting notes. Most of us have seen these dynamics in other public, private or non-profit spheres. No surprise there.
Setting up a separate issues-wiki may indeed be a mistake, or it may be a smart move to avoid politicized bickering and scape-goating.
So lets see what happens here, and hold *all* the members of the CSM accountable for collaborating, doing a good job, and representing the interests of the *entire* EVE community.
Delilah
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Alticius Espionicus
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Posted - 2010.06.09 02:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Delilah Wild Mynxee acknowledges an anti-Ank sentiment
Not in those minutes. She acknowledged disagreeing with Ankh on some issues. There is a rather large difference.
Originally by: Delilah Wild and we've little idea of the neutrality (i.e. absence of political bias) of these meeting notes.
Since I'm a helpful alt troll, here are the raw logs for the first meeting. And here are the raw logs for the second. Hope that helps!
Oh, and come back when you have a clue what you're talking about.
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.06.09 03:13:00 -
[5]
Thanks for linking these threads. It will make it easier for folks to follow what is going on.
At the same time, please consider that my thoughts on special interests, sentiments, and neutrality are not dependent on one set of minutes.
I think you'll find it useful both in and out of Eve to consider alternative meanings to words and actions before firing off a hostile response.
Delilah |
Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.06.09 05:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Delilah Wild Most of the CSM represents a narrow range of special interests, Mynxee acknowledges an anti-Ank sentiment, and we've little idea of the neutrality (i.e. absence of political bias) of these meeting notes. Most of us have seen these dynamics in other public, private or non-profit spheres. No surprise there.
Oh hey, look, it's someone who doesn't get the difference between 'I disagree with you' and 'I am automatically opposed to everything you stand for. Furthermore, ****s****s****s, rabble rabble.'
Also lawling at Ankh: two meetings, two paranoid meltdowns. Awesome.
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Alticius Espionicus
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Posted - 2010.06.09 07:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Delilah Wild Most of the CSM represents a narrow range of special interests, Mynxee acknowledges an anti-Ank sentiment, and we've little idea of the neutrality (i.e. absence of political bias) of these meeting notes. Most of us have seen these dynamics in other public, private or non-profit spheres. No surprise there.
Oh hey, look, it's someone who doesn't get the difference between 'I disagree with you' and 'I am automatically opposed to everything you stand for. Furthermore, ****s****s****s, rabble rabble.'
Also lawling at Ankh: two meetings, two paranoid meltdowns. Awesome.
To be fair, the fact that Mynxee appears to be the former and not the latter is making me reconsider my vote for her.
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IHaveNoFace
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Posted - 2010.06.09 11:02:00 -
[8]
I guess Quote: Psychopathic virgins
and evil griefers that like PVP hold a grudge eh?
Reap what you sow.
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.06.09 13:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alticius Espionicus
Originally by: Delilah Wild Mynxee acknowledges an anti-Ank sentiment
Not in those minutes. She acknowledged disagreeing with Ankh on some issues. There is a rather large difference.
No, Delilah is quite right. From the minutes linked above:
Originally by: Mynxee Mynxee addressed this point stating that she knew there was a lot of anti-Ankh sentiment. Mynxee restated her disagreement with Ankh's position on many issues but that she expected every single person on CSM5 to give Ankh's proposals and comments due consideration and to act with respect. Mynxee ended by stating that she was not tolerating any trolling or other playground crap and that she expected everyone to work together as adults.
Mynxee didn't say she disliked Ankh, but acknowledged that the sentiment exists. We do need to see how things play out, since the term just began and we have 12 months to go.
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.06.09 23:28:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Corina Jarr on 09/06/2010 23:28:54 Ignore this... I can;t find a delete button.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.06.10 10:53:00 -
[11]
[ 2010.06.05 16:35:34 ] Ankhesentapemkah > lol @ anti-ankh bandwagon. [ 2010.06.05 16:35:39 ] Mynxee > ok i count 4 for trebor and 3 for ankh [ 2010.06.05 16:35:44 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Ah well then I'll set up my own wiki parallel to this mess.
[ 2010.06.05 16:41:52 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Kinda hard to do with the anti-ankh sentiments here
tl;dr
buhu everyone hates me and all I did was refer to earlier csm's i was on
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.06.10 23:01:00 -
[12]
She could put it on a joint puzzle pirates wiki to save on hosting costs.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.06.11 11:21:00 -
[13]
Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2010.06.11 18:26:00 -
[14]
I dunno why you are all so mean to her. She's obviously passionate about the game.
Much like the people that tried to protect their villages from the witches by burning them...
It can only be for the good of Eve ----------------------
My Blog |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.06.11 22:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Casiella Truza
Mynxee didn't say she disliked Ankh, but acknowledged that the sentiment exists. We do need to see how things play out, since the term just began and we have 12 months to go.
I fail to see the problem with that.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.12 21:21:00 -
[16]
I ****ing love Space Politics.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.06.15 08:27:00 -
[17]
Third meeting, third screaming hissyfit from ankh. Awesome.
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Sujanra Acoma
Minmatar Shadow Kitty Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.15 15:44:00 -
[18]
I suspect there would be less anti-Ankh sentiment if she didn't blame anti-Ankh sentiment every time someone disagrees with her or something she proposes gets voted down.
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.15 20:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Third meeting, third screaming hissyfit from ankh.
... I think we broke her. |
Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari Original Sin.
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Posted - 2010.06.15 23:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Third meeting, third screaming hissyfit from ankh.
... I think we broke her.
There are no sweeter words than "I told you so."
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.06.16 11:44:00 -
[21]
I invite you to read the raw logs of the 3rd Meeting of the CSM at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM_Meeting_Minutes_5.003_raw_log.
Ank advocates strongly for more direct attention to Faction Warfare, loses a vote on this, and makes constructive contributions throughout the meeting. Trolls interpret this as a 'hissyfit'. Do I detect an ongoing problem with sexism here?
But the real action is Dierdra Vaal spanking Sokratesz on the record for 'snide remarks' about Ank that are 'unneeded, unprofessional and uncourteous', concluding 'dont do it again'. Sokratesz leaves the meeting early to 'catch last bus'.
Who was it having the meltdown?
Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com |
Sujanra Acoma
Minmatar Shadow Kitty Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.16 15:13:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sujanra Acoma on 16/06/2010 15:14:44
Originally by: Delilah Wild Edited by: Delilah Wild on 16/06/2010 12:48:29 I invite you to read the raw logs of the 3rd Meeting of the CSM at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CSM_Meeting_Minutes_5.003_raw_log.
Ank advocates strongly for more direct attention to Faction Warfare, loses a vote on this, and makes constructive contributions throughout the meeting. Trolls interpret this as a 'hissyfit'. Do I detect an ongoing problem with sexism here?
But the real action is Dierdra Vaal spanking Sokratesz on the record for 'snide remarks' about Ank that are 'unneeded, unprofessional and uncourteous', concluding 'dont do it again'. Sokratesz leaves the meeting early to 'catch [the] last bus'.
Interesting...
Delilah friendsofeve.wordpress.com
Edited for clarity.
She lost the vote and then blamed it on the fact that people don't like her. I quote:
[ 2010.06.12 17:36:09 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Dierdra has done the same thing with his unfinished expansion and his issue was passed even though I argued against that, and now I do this thing and everyone is against me it seems. I find this odd and would say this is anti-ankh crap again.
This was a petulant and childish thing to say, and she does it EVERY TIME the vote goes against her. Sokratesz could certainly have been more diplomatic, but that certainly didn't justify the behind-the-scenes threats that were apparently made, and frankly, he had a point. Ankh shouldn't be surprised that people don't like her if she's going to A. Have the well documented attitude that she does towards the PvPing population and B. Take it personally whenever someone disagrees with her!
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.16 16:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Ank advocates strongly for more direct attention to Faction Warfare, loses a vote on this, and makes constructive contributions throughout the meeting.
Why, wouldja look at that, you just happened to fail to mention Ank's hissyfit where she whines about how people had the nerve to disagree with her and goes on for quite some time arguing about how people not voting for her proposal must be because "anti-Ank" sentiment. To say nothing of the fact that many of her suggestions are ******ed and advanced due to her complete lack of knowledge about PvP. We need to give people incentives for PvP in FW, really? And here I thought that the fact that there are ships piloted by other players there that give killmails when popped and drop loot was a pretty good incentive, and one that's good enough for the entire rest of EVE. In any case, three meetings, three hissyfits. Each time because of the same reason; Ank can't behave like a grownup and isn't able to deal with disagreements without adopting a martyr complex. You must have accidentally failed to mention that, ya know, by accident and stuff.
I think that many folks can at least empathize with Sok. And really, while Ank was having (yet another) temper tantrum over not getting her way, Sok added one joke about how it was to be expected as she's now three out of three for going a bit bonkers over minor disappointments. The fact that he was told off for by Dierdra is rather absurd, and it only happened because Sok asked folks not to make threats to him in private conversations if they were going to. And Mynxee is a fine enough CSM delegate, her agreement with Diedra's statements is troubling; it's all well and good to say that people can't try to give Ank a hard time, but if Ank is unrestrained and allowed to go bonkers once or twice every meeting, then she's the one who should be dealt with. Ank's manifest unsuitability for the CSM is the problem, not someone cracking jokes while Ank goes buggy, yet again.
And quit your bull****, we heard enough of it during the campaign. Quoting Ank is not trolling, just give it a rest already and find a new way to slander her honest critics, eh? |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.16 22:27:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/06/2010 22:27:58 So Sokratesz has less of a hissfit?
"I have been threatened, the horror"
Quote: [ 2010.06.12 18:49:08 ] Sokratesz > If I break a period of silence after a certain member says something silly with an equally silly remark, I do not appreciate threatening comments made off the record by meeting participants in an unannounced personal conversation. [ 2010.06.12 18:49:09 ] Sokratesz > If you have problems with my behaviour during these meetings you can say so right here in front of everybody else, and leave the sneaking about to the real politicians. [ 2010.06.12 18:49:31 ] Sokratesz > end [ 2010.06.12 18:49:45 ] Dierdra Vaal > sure :) [ 2010.06.12 18:50:01 ] Mynxee > umm sure? [ 2010.06.12 18:50:17 ] Dierdra Vaal > your snide remark towards ank during her (IIRC) first issue was unneeded, unprofessional and uncourteous. [ 2010.06.12 18:50:19 ] Dierdra Vaal > dont do it again [ 2010.06.12 18:50:23 ] Dierdra Vaal > happy now?
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.16 22:41:00 -
[25]
Did I mention how much I love space politics?
I think I need to reiterate that I really, really love space politics.
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FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.16 22:59:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/06/2010 22:27:58 So Sokratesz has less of a hissfit?
Stop being dense. Tu quoque is a fallacy, not a great way to argue. And even that being the case, Sok at least had a valid point. He was evidently given some sort of ultimatum off the record and it was confirmed on the record. Ank, on the other hand, pitched a hissyfit (each and every single meeting so far) simply because she didn't get her way.
Do you detect a difference? |
Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.06.17 12:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero And Mynxee is a fine enough CSM delegate, her agreement with Diedra's statements is troubling; it's all well and good to say that people can't try to give Ank a hard time, but if Ank is unrestrained and allowed to go bonkers once or twice every meeting, then she's the one who should be dealt with.
With the CSM so closely scrutinized by the public when logs/minutes are released, consider the strategic implications of my responses to delegates' behavior in meetings before judging too quickly.
Life In Low Sec |
Tyrin Amari
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Posted - 2010.06.17 15:29:00 -
[28]
Quote: Do I detect an ongoing problem with sexism here?
What's next the race card... get over yourself.
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.06.17 16:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Delilah Wild on 17/06/2010 16:00:43 I agree with FinnAgain that quoting out of context is a poor form of argument. May I suggest that he and his partisans on various threads stop doing so? At the same time, I appreciate Venkul Mul's providing us the fuller textual context when quoting Dierdra Vaal's spanking of Sokratesz. An example of what FinnAgain and others should aspire to.
If you read the various logs of this CSM, you will find some members of it either acknowledging and/or cultivating an anti-Ank bias. Mynxee provides us a small example by trading on this in the post above. A shame really, given the professionalism she has otherwise demonstrated in the CSM meetings.
And still, folks like FinnAgain say that Ank's commenting upon this bias constitutes an evidentiary claim for a melt down. FinnAgain, had you ever thought of placing that comment in the context which gives it a wider meaning? Sujanra, had you bothered to read the substance of the whole meeting and its constructive interactions between Ank and others?
No. You cherry-picked a minor disagreement to created an excuse for more Ank bashing. Why? If FinnAgain's post is indicative -- and in the broader context of this debate, it is -- because she doesn't share a myopic focus on his kind of pvp.
Add onto this the coded sexist language about women having hissyfits, temper tantrums and the like. Frankly, I wonder who is having the real hissy when I read your statement to me, 'And quit your bull*****, we heard enough of it during the campaign'.
Seems to me you folks have a special talent for digging yourselves in deeper and deeper.
Localhorse and others have thoroughly debunked claims such as yours about Ank and pvp. In addition, I have been advocated for win-win approaches to developing the game to benefit all Eve's citizens -- high, low and null sec. May I gently suggest you contribute something constructive as well? You might start by pressuring Sokratesz and his kind to stop the trolling, both on and off the CSM, and get down to work on improving Eve.
Ironically, the day before this flare-up, I posted on Sokratesz' need to act in a more responsible manner. I was quite surprised to see that need validated on the record shortly thereafter. Dierdra Vaal did the right thing in calling him out on his poor behaviour.
You inadvertently raise an issue, however, that I think Ank should take to heart.
Sokratesz has demonstrated his bad faith, and it is now an official part of the CSM meeting logs. So are his partisans' bad faith, as recorded in this and other forum threads. Because of that, Ank should let this 'ank sentiment' issue drop. We all know about the bias. Giving it more emphasis is a distraction from other issues, and provides fodder for trolling. How she constructively deals with this trolling is a more pressing matter. This brings us full circle to the broader meaning and advice of the original poster, Casiella Truza.
With this in mind, I want to encourage Ank to help shift the terms of debate by continuing to urge those representing special interests on the CSM to join together in win-win solutions. This may mean graciously losing on certain issues of process or substance in this round of the CSM. Yet I believe a proactive effort to build bridges and foster a larger consensus remains a more important goal. It will set a proactive tone and professional expectations for future CSMs. And I hope that, over time, those who continue to troll will be marginalized from the mainstream of constructive dialogue and action.
I don't know whether Ank will take this advice. It isn't easy. It takes patience and discipline to deal with the truant behaviour of people like Sokratesz. And perhaps Ank doesn't suffer fools gladly. Most strong women I know do not. Yet at the same time, one must expect, adapt and transcend such behaviour in any politicized circumstance.
Delilah http://friendsofeve.wordpress.com
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.17 16:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/06/2010 22:27:58 So Sokratesz has less of a hissfit?
Stop being dense. Tu quoque is a fallacy, not a great way to argue. And even that being the case, Sok at least had a valid point. He was evidently given some sort of ultimatum off the record and it was confirmed on the record. Ank, on the other hand, pitched a hissyfit (each and every single meeting so far) simply because she didn't get her way.
Do you detect a difference?
Read the quote, Sokratesz was scolded, not threatened.
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