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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.10 17:18:00 -
[1]
Linkage
Go pilot analytics! Go!
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.06.10 17:28:00 -
[2]
EVE nerdage engaged.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:07:00 -
[3]
and the only mention of insurance was to say it was keeping prices of minerals up. No stats on number of payouts, total ISK payouts, or anything. It's like insurance fraud never happened.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:09:00 -
[4]
Originally by: QEN
In total, 3,200 different characters lost at least one strategic cruiser, and the character that lost the most lost 16 of them, at an estimated value around 10 billion ISK, including fitted modules. Of those 16 cruisers, 6 were lost to PVE, and 10 were lost in PVP battles.
Ouch.
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:12:00 -
[5]
Unbelievable, the QEN finally recognises insurance fraud.
What everybody in the game knew last November, the bottle neck in T1 production was pyerite and when IER was at 102 for ROKH's it was profitable to keep buying pyerite. At least 3 times I cleared Jita of pyerite.
I am hoping we busted the insurance system in Oct-Jan through our efforts.
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Azureite
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:18:00 -
[6]
T3s in wormhole space, proof at last.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.10 18:31:00 -
[7]
Half of the report are pretty pictures (not talking about the graphs) or explanations of game mechanics.
If central banks IRL would write reports the way CCP writes the QEN it would be very hard to maintain a somewhat stable currency...
IMO a good report on the state of the economy should feature the following:
(1) what are our general policy goals? (2) what happened since the last report (3) how did our policies/actions work out during that period? (4) what do we expect to happen without us doing anything unusual? (5) in broad terms - what are we going to do to tweak/avoid the scenario in (4) (6) in-depth review of some topic of general interest
currently CCP does (2), (6) and to a very limited degree (3).
(1) and (4), (5) would add a great deal of transparency and predictability to the economy of EVE.
We recently had several people advising to liquidate as much as possible before patchdays (in general, not due to the expectations of wide-spread deflation). This is clearly not efficient and largely due to the mistrust people have in CCP's ability to achieve its stated goals and the prevailing uncertainty rgd the content/scope of CCP's real goals. More transparency would help.
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TornSoul
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Half of the report are pretty pictures
They are not just pretty - They are actually rather spectacular in my opinion. Downright awesome in fact.
Almost each and everyone of them is a desktop wallpaper to be - if only... one had the right resolution of them.
Serious kudos to the artist doing them/setting them up.
The QEN always get's ridiculed in here for it's (MD) content - So I thought a nod to the artist was in order - Because if nothing else, that part of the QEN is in my opinion draw dropping beautiful.
---
With that out of the way :
I think the reason why most MD regulars gets "upset" about the QEN every time for not being "in depth" enough, or "thorough" enough regarding MD interest, is that they've misunderstood the "mission" of the QEN - Or the target audience.
It's *not* the hardcore MD regulars (or hardcore industrialist in general).
That would be such a small and insignificant portion of EVE's playerbase, it would not be worth spending the resources, it takes to make a QEN, on.
The QEN, to my understanding, aims broader than that, namely at the new, or at least curious, industrialists, and those in the mid range as well.
The content is (mostly) balanced towards that, and as such accomplishes it's goal pretty well actually.
It's a dumbed down version (of what hardcore MD'ers crave) if you will.
I'm not saying the QEN's (not to mention their release freqency...) is perfect - far far far from it. However do keep in mind when asking for changes what the real audience is.
As some has said before, most of what's in the QEN the MD'ers already know beforehand - and more.
/asbestos diclaimer This is not a defence - But more a clarification perhaps.
BIG Lottery |
Rhennthyl
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 10/06/2010 18:37:59 Half of the report are pretty pictures (not talking about the graphs) or explanations of game mechanics.
If central banks IRL would write reports the way CCP writes the QEN it would be very hard to maintain a somewhat stable currency...
IMO a good report on the state of the economy should feature the following:
(1) what are our general policy goals? (2) what happened since the last report (3) how did our policies/actions work out during that period? (4) what do we expect to happen without us doing anything unusual? (5) in broad terms - what are we going to do to tweak/avoid the scenario in (4) (6) in-depth review of some topic of general interest
currently CCP does (2), (6) and to a very limited degree (3).
(1) and (4), (5) would add a great deal of transparency and predictability to the economy of EVE.
We recently had several people advising to liquidate as much as possible before patchdays (in general, not due to the expectations of wide-spread deflation). This is clearly not efficient and largely due to the mistrust people have in CCP's ability to achieve its stated goals and the prevailing uncertainty rgd the content/scope of CCP's real goals. More transparency would help.
edit: some people might want to add (5*) what is going to happen when taking the actions from (5) into account. IMO that kind of prediction when made by the policymaker himself will always be unrealistically optimistic and of little real value. there are other arguments for/against this point but I don't think it's a good idea to include this in public reports.
As much as I agree with all of your points for a better report, I must point out that in general, central banks in real life DO write reports that are functionally equivalent to this. The Federal Reserve's Flow of Funds Accounts of the United States is a good example.
Whether this is a reason that they have a hard time maintaining a stable currency is an exercise left to the reader.
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israus
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: QEN
In total, 3,200 different characters lost at least one strategic cruiser, and the character that lost the most lost 16 of them, at an estimated value around 10 billion ISK, including fitted modules. Of those 16 cruisers, 6 were lost to PVE, and 10 were lost in PVP battles.
Ouch.
how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
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TornSoul
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.10 19:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: israus
how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
Yeah i wondered that one as well - and that was ontop of the 10 in PvP (same guy)
My guess is it's someone who "somehow" had a ton of ISK and decided to play with t3, without having a clue what he was doing (new'ish to the game - doesnt take much to train the t3 skills ) - and not really caring about the ISK.
Nothing else really makes sense - No one is *that* bad else wise.
BIG Lottery |
Shirley Serious
Amarr The Khanid Sisters of Athra
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: israus
how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
Yeah i wondered that one as well - and that was ontop of the 10 in PvP (same guy) Nothing else really makes sense - No one is *that* bad else wise.
not even Siigari ?
Yes. Yes, I am. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:13:00 -
[13]
Originally by: israus how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
I can think of one loss: Working sleepers while getting jumped by PVPers. Killmail snatched by NPC. Originally by: TornSoul It's *not* the hardcore MD regulars (or hardcore industrialist in general). The QEN, to my understanding, aims broader than that, namely at the new, or at least curious, industrialists, and those in the mid range as well. The content is (mostly) balanced towards that, and as such accomplishes it's goal pretty well actually. It's a dumbed down version (of what hardcore MD'ers crave) if you will.
(Some portions removed to boil down the thought.) In simpler words: Marketing Fluff with semblance of substance.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Kesper North
Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shar Tegral [justify] Originally by: israus how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
I can think of one loss: Working sleepers while getting jumped by PVPers. Killmail snatched by NPC.
I thought NPCs cannot get killmails if there are any PCs on the mail; if an NPC gets final blow, the killmail goes to the PC who fired the last shot before that.
As for the QEN... I really feel they just just rename it to Annual Economic Report and be done with it. -- Killed me? Read about it in my blog! Northern Lights: Solo PVP in EVE Online
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Rhedea
Gorthaur Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:36:00 -
[15]
Not exactly printer friendlylose the big pictures.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:39:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rhennthyl As much as I agree with all of your points for a better report, I must point out that in general, central banks in real life DO write reports that are functionally equivalent to this. The Federal Reserve's Flow of Funds Accounts of the United States is a good example.
Whether this is a reason that they have a hard time maintaining a stable currency is an exercise left to the reader.
hey, you take the most boring report by one of the Central bank's with the most boring reports and then tell me it's boring and uninformative^^
Here's something to cheer you up (I think that would be the closest equivalent to the QEN in its current form; notice chapter 5 and the nice fan-charts )
But even the Bank of England's Annual report is pretty informative. Notice that my point (1) is answered on page 3 of the Annual Report PDF, the QEN needs like 5 pages only to get to the table of contents^^; the "Review of 2009/10" starts by listing the strategic priorities determined in the previous year's report and then evaluates if the objectives were met or not; this is followed by "The BankĘs priorities in 2010/11" which again begins by listing the strategic priorities for 2010/11 and gives a rough outline of the steps the bank has planned in these areas. Only after these points are answered the financial statements begin to appear
(my point (6) is answered by the bank of England in its Quarterly bulletins)
For some laughs also browse the slides of this lecture - M. King really likes his fan charts (the transcript is imo actually fairly interesting).
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:46:00 -
[17]
The interesting thing is that ancient salvaged materials show two major spikes in price in May and July. The first spike is almost entirely caused by Neurovisual Input Matrices, while the second one is primarily driven by Neurovisual Input Matrices and Melted Nanoribbons. It would seem that the scarcity of these items came as a surprise to the market.
Silly surprised market people. Don't you know 'bout scarcity of items and suchforth? So silly.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.10 20:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kesper North I thought NPCs cannot get killmails if there are any PCs on the mail; if an NPC gets final blow, the killmail goes to the PC who fired the last shot before that.
Well saying Killmail to NPC is a misnomer. However I'm sure that final blow by Sleeper registers as kill by NPC in the system.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente League of Gentlemen
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:13:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Originally by: TornSoul
Originally by: israus
how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
Yeah i wondered that one as well - and that was ontop of the 10 in PvP (same guy) Nothing else really makes sense - No one is *that* bad else wise.
not even Siigari ?
Siigari would probably do it with some crazy x-type fit, and the 10b in losses would certainly support at least some expense in the ship fits..
Regarding high-sec mining:
Originally by: AmarrettoDiAmarr 3-4 million ISK/hr is perhaps .15 0r .20 US$/hr; not quite prison wages and you are around less honest people.
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SirRalph
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:16:00 -
[20]
MD is filled with traderwannabees with their forum alts so they don't lose their faces.. Someday they will find the freebee!
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Dracnys
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:22:00 -
[21]
What I like about the QEN is the player and ship counts, as this info isn't available for players or at least not easily. The other stuff looks pretty and one can feel like a true businessman while looking at pretty graphs with amazing spaceship pictures. It's meant as entertainment and not as a deep economy report. The average Eve player should understand it and that's the way it is designed.
For me the player counts were interesting for calculating the total size of the market for some PI products with the help of some guesstimated numbers.
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Dan Spitty
Gallente Gunslingers Corp
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:34:00 -
[22]
I do like the amazing pictures. Very nice.
I also like how they caught 45 T3 Cruisers in a single wh-system in a snapshot :) Come on, own up ! lol
I'm guessing the pilot that lost 6 T3 ships in PvE fell asleep soloing lvl4/5 missions ? 800 million skill-points lost by people losing them is a massive number. Something to keep clone-costs down :)
What got me is almost 29,000 characters not in a rookie ship, active in Jita. Poor node :(
Nice read, thanks for that.
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Letrange
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.10 21:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: israus how do you lose 6 strat cruiser in pve?
Fly with the wrong pilots with the wrong fits then get webbed and scrammed in class 3+ wormhole did it for two of mine.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.06.11 01:07:00 -
[24]
I thought that was a much better report than the last one I remember reading (probably Q42009, but not sure). It did a much better job of noting trends, IMO.
One key "take away" point seems to be deflation (and this is PRE Tyrannis). While the report notes that manufacturing/production has not yet been affected by deflation, I wonder if that will continue. ISK seems a much safer place to be than assets for the foreseeable future.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.11 04:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 10/06/2010 18:37:59 Half of the report are pretty pictures (not talking about the graphs) or explanations of game mechanics.
If central banks IRL would write reports the way CCP writes the QEN it would be very hard to maintain a somewhat stable currency...
.
Have your read warren buffets comments about the typical corporate annual report? .. they're all puff and bs. I'm sure almost no analyst learns a thing from 90% of them.
Where they do learn a lot from is from the form 10k and particularly the notes to the financial statements.
What we quants need is a form 10k version of this puff piece.
What you want most though, you'll neither find in rl 10ks or this thing. In a rl report it would be great to get segment information on a companies various activities, including things like margins etc.. of course.. if they gave out that sort of info their competitiors would go right for the jugular ... both attacking the gold mines and trying to push the week segments to a decision to close them down and clear the markets for themselves.
Some of this info we want but don't get might be valuable to keep secret in rl for CCP... they might want to keep the number of their players paying for mutiple accounts an months of average rentention to themselves.......part for marketing to players (you need to pay for 3 accounts to keep even?) and maybe even how some demographic info they have might be used as a tool for other mmos to more easily poach players.
But also, if they were to give us too much information, the value of indpendently lookign for that iformation would be less valuable.. if they took the mystery out of what the trade volume was in each system and station, instead of taking hundreds of hours of exploration and trial and error to discover the things, then be able to profit for months after words.. the information would be easy to get.. you'd have something like a "solved game" and more players would have less interest in playing for that challenge of discovering little niches would be gone.
Ok enough for now.
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.11 05:39:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 11/06/2010 05:44:25
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Have your read warren buffets comments about the typical corporate annual report? .. they're all puff and bs. I'm sure almost no analyst learns a thing from 90% of them.
Where they do learn a lot from is from the form 10k and particularly the notes to the financial statements.
I think we're talking from very different perspectives here.
I see CCP as some kind of a combined government and central bank. If you want to have stability in the market (which is achieved by having the trust of market participants) your number one concern should be predictability.
I know what goals the FED wants to achieve, I know what goals the ECB wants to achieve and I know what goals the Bank of England wants to achieve. I have no idea what the guidelines behind CCP's economic policy are.
I see charts which sometimes show positive and sometimes negative inflation. I have no idea if CCP cares about the price level at all (if not, why report it?), if they have a certain price level in mind or if they have a certain target rate of inflation.
CCP decides to buff T2 and nerf T1 insurance - do they just want to nerf insurance fraud (why? what of their more general guidelines says that insurance fraud is a bad thing?), do they want to achieve some different distribution in fleet compositions? (what are the basic guidelines? do they have some target percentage of each ship-type? do they look at ship roles?) are they concerned about mineral prices? do they want to nerf miners' incomes? do they see the need for a stronger price floor of T2 mats?
What kind of target income does CCP envision for miners, mission runners, ... ? How does the risk/reward equation they try to follow look like?
In EVE we are essentially living in a planned economy (there are markets but CCP can tweak the requirements under which the markets operate - the broker system, artificial price floors, distribution of raw materials, level of technology - to achieve the desired outcome). BUT we have no idea what the desired outcome looks like and therefore we tend to interpret CCP's actions/the results of said actions in the most pessimistic way imaginable. Which leads us to having almost no trust in CCP's abilities as a (benevolent) economic planner.
In the words of Mervyn King (yes, maybe I am a little fanboi of him ) Quote: [...] I tell you that our ambition at the Bank of England is to be boring. Not, I hasten to add, at events like this. But in our management of the economy where our belief is that boring is best.
Macroeconomic policy has, for most of our lifetime, been rather too exciting for comfort.[...]
[...] Our aim is to maintain economic stability. A reputation for being boring is an advantage - credibility of the policy framework helps to dampen the movement of the see-saw. If love is never having to say sorry, then stability is never having to be exciting.[...]
This has nothing to do with the reports written by commercial entities and does in no way "solve" EVE.
But all the rampant patch-day speculation and price spikes, all the pointless discussion about T2 BPOs, the anger of people who got their stock of POS structures nerfed last week and many many more avoidable nuisances are at least partly due to us having no clue what the driving policies behind CCP's decisions really are (and how good CCP is in achieving these goals in practice).
WTB: Taylor rule for EVE.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.11 06:07:00 -
[27]
Ok mme, I hear what you're saying....I'm probably guilty of answering something in a previous thread.
Yeah, it would be nice to hear goals and general circumstaces where they might think of ways to respond without giving specific information to eliminate the thrilss of responding to fluctuating market conditions.
Still, it seems pretty plain from reading the reports that they do favor price stability... like it best when people spread themselves among a wide assortment of ships...they seem to be neutural on Jita as a main hub..not terribly negative about its role.. they definiteley seem to want players to migrate to more dangerous areas after a while playing...they're quite proud of the use of Wormholes, glad people are using more expensive higher powered ships, a bit neutral about how much they like 0.0 ...
Look at the adjectives they choose and what they chose to talk about and what they chose to omit.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.11 06:24:00 -
[28]
For example
"This would indicate lively speculative trading with these high-end minerals as the market adjusts to the increased supply. We anticipate more volatility in this market in the coming months."
"lively" is a very positive word ... if they didn't like it, it would be maybe "chaotic" or "erratic" .
The reinforce their comfort with this as a positive game element with the use of the word "anticipate" instead of "we fear" , or something more neutral like "it is likely" .
You gotta be a bit of a rhetoritician (even if you're dyslexic)
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quygen
Minmatar Acting Neutral
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Posted - 2010.06.11 07:12:00 -
[29]
He even has a Qen Team now? Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
^ You seen it CCP =) Now go fix! |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.06.11 07:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso even if you're dyslexic
I am a dyslexic?
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