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Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:41:00 -
[1]
Before you jump on me, this is intended as constructive criticism. If these issues were resolved I'd probably be much more interested in remaining a subscriber. If these issues don't bother you, that's fine; it's obvious that tens of thousands of players are willing to put up with them. If you're one of those players, you don't need to defend your contentedness. :)
So, I've been playing computer games for a long time, been a sci-fi fan for a long time, etc. Finally put together a new PC so I can play current games again. Saw EVE on Steam and decided to give it a try. Played for a couple weeks and decided to subscribe. Finally took some long-haul trips and got disenchanted enough to say something about it. I have some simple, concrete suggestions, and some big-picture thoughts.
Let's go with the simple ones first.
The UI needs a complete overhaul.
- The fonts. Need I say more? How many years has it been this way? How many expansions have been released without fixing this? Where are development priorities? I suppose pitching a better font as padding the bottom line would be difficult compared to pitching new content, but that's no excuse.
- It would benefit tremendously from a simple drop-down menu bar at the top of the screen, such as you find in OS X, or any plain old Windows application. The vertical icon bar is no substitute. The EVE UI is more complicated than office apps' UIs.
- No offense intended to the original artists, but the icons in the "neocom" bar look like icons from 1995. There's hardly any visual distinction; they're mostly amorphous blobs of colors.
- The HUD is...not a HUD. It certainly doesn't resemble anything that comes to mind when I think of incredibly advanced spaceship command interfaces, neither in its appearance nor functionality. The style of the Star Map in EVE is quite attractive, and it would be good if the ship command interface looked like it came from the same millenium. :) For an example of what I mean, look at these: http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/about/screenshots.html This one is an especially good example: http://www.introversion.co.uk/defcon/screenshots/screenshot3.jpg Smooth, anti-aliased, vector-drawn graphics, in well-chosen colors. Imagine if elements like that were displayed on top of your space view. Imagine if the shield/cap/hull and modules resembled that interface. As it is now, it looks more like it belongs in a fantasy game than a spaceship game.
- Hotkeys. Configurable hotkeys. I've seen plenty of posts on this forum asking for them, all the way back to at least 4 years ago. Why can't I Ctrl+W to warp? Why can't I even Ctrl+Click to unlock a target? Combat should be about tactics and strategy, not about clicking the right buttons over and over again. The UI should not get in the way of the pilot's ability to quickly command his ship. You might want to google "HOTAS" for starters.
- The UI can't queue actions. If I'm dropping out of warp at a stargate, and I click the Jump button while I'm just barely still in warp, it just fails. Why can't this sophisticated spaceship queue the Jump command? Don't mention the autopilot, because this is just one example of this behavior.
(...post limits are annoyingly short...)
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Criss AngeI
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:46:00 -
[2]
ur stuffz, i can haz?
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Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:47:00 -
[3]
Simple things that are very annoying and easy to fix, but haven't been:
- When I expand the Drones In Space category, the game doesn't remember that. Every time I undock and launch drones, I have to wait for the drone window to disappear, reappear, and then I have to expand the category again so I can monitor my drones. This is a prime example of fighting the UI, and it'd be trivial to fix.
- Even if turrets or launchers are identical and have identical ammo, I have to tediously unload them before I can group them, and then reload them.
- After doing that, I have to manually stack the unloaded ammo. Why isn't there a Stack Automatically option?
Why can't I create groups or folders in my inventories? What if I want to keep some long-term items separate from new loot and salvage? I shouldn't have to buy a cargo container to do this.
UI Summary: The UI gets in the way of having fun. The player often feels like he's fighting the UI more than the enemies. The game tends to be about button-clicking work more than about cleverly solving interesting problems in competition with other players.
2. The tedium needs to go.
- EVE should be about fun, not repetitive button-clicking. (Strangely, I realize that there are many players who find that to be fun. I'll get to that later.) We're flying highly-advanced spaceships, which can travel across the galaxy faster than light itself. But these same ships can't automatically fire their weapons at the next locked target when the first target is destroyed, and they can't automatically target the next hostile ship during an engagement (I know there's a module for that, but using it would deprive your ship of a valuable slot; it shouldn't have to be a module). Combat shouldn't be about activating your weapon over and over again. Again, combat should be about tactics and strategy; about piloting your ship better than the other guy; about planning your engagements so as to give yourself an advantage over your enemy.
- (I'm going to pick on mining here as an example.) I've never had any desire to mine in EVE. I don't understand why anyone would find the idea of shooting rocks which merely float there in space to be fun. Watching a progress bar crawl along is not fun (that's akin to watching your cargo hold fill up). Piddly NPC rats don't help; even a mining bot can take care of those for you (just look on Google).
- My point is that CCP should consider the existence of out-of-game bots as an indication that something's wrong with the part of the game that the bots play. Let the player train up some skills and earn some money and spend it on automated mining systems. Let him fly escort patrols if he's worried about his in-game bots getting blown up by rats or other players. Let other players train up skills to hack into his bots and steal them. Let the player choose to accept the risk of having his bots mine autonomously while he's AFK or offline. Give the player the choice, and don't force him into tedious, monotonous, repetitive tasks (Farmville, anyone? ugh).
(...really, really too short...)
(...five MINUTES? Are you kidding me? Does CCP actually want feedback? This is what I get for taking the time to write up constructive criticism?)
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:51:00 -
[4]
In before this gets tossed to F&I to languish for all eternity
Also, you can skirt the 5m posting timer by logging out/logging in again
Also also, yes the UI needs an overhaul. We've asked. Lots. _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:52:00 -
[5]
Some larger-scale observations:
I think some people become so immersed in the game that they don't want anything to change. Sometimes they want all players to have to suffer through the tedium that they suffered through. It gets to the point where, not only do they accept the tedium, but they begin to value it. They perceive it as productive work (in the realm of the game). They vehemently resist any idea of automating this "effort", and the "skill" it requires. They lash out at players who prefer fun, interesting actions, calling them "lazy." Players who aren't "lazy," and who are willing to mindlessly click the same buttons over and over, are enabled to gain a significant advantage (financially, at least) over players who prefer fun.
This attitude is detrimental to the game. It holds it back from reaching its full potential. Just think about it: in a universe with such advanced technology, all of these boring tasks should be automated. The player's role should be to make tactical and strategic decisions (not just in combat, but in the market, etc), and to interact with other players. In our real world, games should automate as much tedium as possible so we can spend our playing time doing fun tasks that engage the mind.
If certain players enjoy these tedious tasks so much, watching their imaginary cargo hold fill up with imaginary stuff, and watching their imaginary bank balance get bigger, then let other players hire them at a lower cost than is required to purchase automation skills and equipment. But the player should have the choice to automate these repetitive tasks.
EVE has so much potential. The emphasis on player interaction and player-driven changes in the universe are unparalleled. But it's being held back by artificial restrictions and inefficient interfaces. For these reasons, I will likely let my subscription expire.
I realize that there are many thousands of satisfied, happy, and even addicted players. Good for them; they've found a game they enjoy. I guess we don't share the same definitions of "game" and "fun." :)
2ó
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Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate In before this gets tossed to F&I to languish for all eternity
Also, you can skirt the 5m posting timer by logging out/logging in again
Also also, yes the UI needs an overhaul. We've asked. Lots.
That's not encouraging. Haha.
Well, I suppose CCP doesn't have much incentive to reinvent the UI as long as they have so many subscribers. If they did, though, they'd greatly increase their potential subscriber base.
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Sangeli
Gallente Space Explorations and Excavations Galactic Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.13 03:58:00 -
[7]
agreed
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:03:00 -
[8]
I agree with you. This game is not perfect and a number of the changes that you are proposing will be beneficial.
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Ruby Khann
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:05:00 -
[9]
Agreed, but since you're leaving, can I have your stuff?
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Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:06:00 -
[10]
Good post, but you will find the rest of the eve community bored to death with it becase these issues have been addressed time and time again.
CCP has its own direction for the game and it involves MAJOR additions which dont take into account many of the things you've mentioned.
Many of us hold on (like in a bad marriage) hoping CCP will change and start listening to the playerbase a little more.
So far...nothing.
-------------------------------------- If you don't like my posts, then why waste your time commenting in them? -------------------------------------- |
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:06:00 -
[11]
1: The UI is due for an update again (it has had several in the past). You could have chosen an example of a UI style that might have some remote possibility of being useful in EVE.
2: Finding the fine line between streamlining game play and removing necessary player interaction in the game is always difficult to find. In my opinion automatic targeting and weapons fire, not to mention authorized mining bots, steps over that line.
Mining should require interaction, and needs more of it, not less. Finding more interesting "ways" to interact with the game while mining is not a bad thing, more challenges are good as well. Click and walk away is a swift ticket to a drop in subs.
Auto targeting is usually impractical, auto firing will get you killed in many situations, and auto jumping through a gate in a combat situation will get you killed more often than it will save you.
You should have spent more time playing the meat of the game instead of mining/traveling in Empire.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:10:00 -
[12]
CCP is much more interested in touting "the next best thing" than it is with improving on it's established product
It's nothing new and it's hard to find a thread where it doesn't enter the discussion at some point. It's also pushing away their more time tested and loyal customers.
The problem with always pandering to people that love "the next best thing" is, eventually, "the next best thing" isn't going to be your game.
CCP does need to bone up and improve established elements of the game instead of new content and expansions. If they did I'm sure it would impress enough people to get older people active again and still bring in new players. "A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:10:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 13/06/2010 04:10:35
Originally by: Wilet Fox That's not encouraging. Haha.
Well, I suppose CCP doesn't have much incentive to reinvent the UI as long as they have so many subscribers. If they did, though, they'd greatly increase their potential subscriber base.
I think they realize that they have an incentive to do it because of increased subscriptions, but i think that enough of their money is being spent on non-EVE related development that they can't really consider it right now. A UI overhaul would be a massive project, and would probably necessitate changes to a lot of other things (eg, the POS UIs are awful, but it probably wouldn't help to upgrade the UI if the code is still an awful minefield behind the scenes)
Maybe after incarna. _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
Draku Rykenen
Gallente The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:12:00 -
[14]
In regards to UI.
There is a two layer reality going on here.
A) EVE's complexity and mountain of data and intricacy are the primary attractions for most long term pod pilots.
B) In order to handle the aforementioned, substance has taken priority over form.
I'm not suggesting that it could not be done any better, just that the overview in specific and the UI as a whole sacrifice Neat'o factor for brute force functionality for a reason.
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Cadde
Gallente 221st Century Warfare
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:14:00 -
[15]
By far the most constructive "ragequit over random stuff" post I've read!
But the problem is as you said yourself, players accepting the tedium of the UI that leads CCP to believe they are doing something right because the playerbase is growing every expansion and for what it's worth. That is all they really want to happen. The very moment EvE start losing players every expansion is the time CCP will start actually paying attention to what people really want.
I've said it before and I'll say it again...
CCP, please dedicate an expansion to just fixing stuff we already have. Proper balancing och certain modules and the likes, overhauled UI, better game backbones, more hotkeys, less tedium, more entertaining "grind activities" and so on.
A very good example is the missions, especially level 4 missions... The reason nobody sane is doing them is because they are not even worthy of being called a game. It's like playing solitaire for the millionth time in a month! (Except you win every time!) The only reason people do them is because they spawn tons of isk for them to either spend on new cool toys that makes missions go faster or to fuel their war efforts. But why does it have to involve a completely mind destroying activity as grinding missions to have a good time fighting for about 3 minutes?
Imagine if all those grind activities actually where fun (dangerous / risky) with lots of interesting happenings...
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ranger 1 1: The UI is due for an update again (it has had several in the past). You could have chosen an example of a UI style that might have some remote possibility of being useful in EVE.
I have some ideas in my head, but I don't know of an existing example that illustrates what I have in mind. Basically it would entail moving most elements to the edges of the screen, making them more compact, and using fewer colors with more distinctive shapes. More like a real aircraft HUD, but with more possibilites.
Quote: Mining should require interaction, and needs more of it, not less. Finding more interesting "ways" to interact with the game while mining is not a bad thing, more challenges are good as well. Click and walk away is a swift ticket to a drop in subs.
You might be right. I was thinking that a player would have to spend money to earn the ability to automate it, and the money he'd earn from the mining would be used to fund more entertaining endeavors.
Quote: Auto targeting is usually impractical, auto firing will get you killed in many situations, and auto jumping through a gate in a combat situation will get you killed more often than it will save you.
Of course. What I had in mind was something like a configurable Combat Mode, with some presets. For example, the F-16's avionics have preset modes that select weapons and appropriate radar modes, including auto-locking, with the use of a simple four-way hat switch on the stick. It wouldn't be all-or-nothing, always-or-never.
Quote: You should have spent more time playing the meat of the game instead of mining/traveling in Empire.
Well, I haven't given up just yet. I've read about a lot of fun PvP interaction, but building one's skills and finances up to that level seems to take a while. I haven't even mined, actually, because it doesn't interest me at all. :) I was hoping to join a good corp, but I hit a minor roadblock in that attempt. We'll see if I can find what I'm looking for.
Originally by: Cadde CCP, please dedicate an expansion to just fixing stuff we already have. Proper balancing och certain modules and the likes, overhauled UI, better game backbones, more hotkeys, less tedium, more entertaining "grind activities" and so on.
Truly, if they'd devote even 50% of their resources to overhauling and improving what already exists, it'd make a huge difference.
Quote: A very good example is the missions, especially level 4 missions... The reason nobody sane is doing them is because they are not even worthy of being called a game. It's like playing solitaire for the millionth time in a month! (Except you win every time!) The only reason people do them is because they spawn tons of isk for them to either spend on new cool toys that makes missions go faster or to fuel their war efforts. But why does it have to involve a completely mind destroying activity as grinding missions to have a good time fighting for about 3 minutes?
Imagine if all those grind activities actually where fun (dangerous / risky) with lots of interesting happenings...
Regarding the missions, I was thinking: imagine if agents hired players for both sides of a mission, good and bad? Instead of player-or-two vs. bunches-of-NPCs, what if it was players-and-possibly-NPC-fleet vs. other players-and-possibly-NPC-fleet? If it was done in busy mission hubs, timing wouldn't be much of a problem. Imagine the possibilities. You'd never know who'd be on the other side, and what ship and equipment they'd have. Certain restrictions would be necessary to prevent utter ganking, but would allow for very interesting situations. And to the victor goes the spoils.
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:40:00 -
[17]
Hello Kitty Online is that way
--------->
Quote: CCP Mindstar > Sorry - I've completely messed all that up. lets try again
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:41:00 -
[18]
Wilet
open up your items menu, and hit ctrl + A. Rick click and click create contract, and input the name Obsidian Hawk for a private item exchange.
kthxbai.
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wilet Fox
Regarding the missions, I was thinking: imagine if agents hired players for both sides of a mission, good and bad? Instead of player-or-two vs. bunches-of-NPCs, what if it was players-and-possibly-NPC-fleet vs. other players-and-possibly-NPC-fleet? If it was done in busy mission hubs, timing wouldn't be much of a problem. Imagine the possibilities. You'd never know who'd be on the other side, and what ship and equipment they'd have. Certain restrictions would be necessary to prevent utter ganking, but would allow for very interesting situations. And to the victor goes the spoils.
well, it's not a terrible idea but I think one of the more restrictive realities of mmos is implimenting any rewards towards a decent player vs player system without it easily being abused.
to make a system like the one you suggested worth doing (very high risk), the coorisponding rewards would have to be significant. thus you'd find a case of one side throwing for the other and they just splitting the rewards.
i'm not saying it's impossible, just difficult to impliment.
if you are as new as you say you are you wouldn't know that that very idea is pretty much what everyone expected out of faction warfare! of course we all know how far our expectations were from CCPs reality
i'd still like to see something like it implimented. "A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.13 04:49:00 -
[20]
This thread is further proof that the forums have become stale and repetative. Even the troll alts are running on fumes..
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Marchocias + = +
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Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:02:00 -
[21]
I find the current UI ok...
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
I find the current UI ok...
Same. I'm not really sure what people want when they say they need an improved ui. The ui I use does everything I need it to do in a minimalist visual fashion that saves tons of screen area. Now are there some bugs like colors on the overview getting mixed up? Sure, but a quick double tap of the tab key fixes nearly every display oriented ui bug in the game. Are there other annoying things like having to lock and unlock EVERY SINGLE BPO MANUALLY that could use a solution? FFS YES but that has zero to do with the ui. For once it would be nice to actually have the complainer detail out exactly what is wrong in their opinion about the ui and then put forward a solution that most people can agree on. But no, all we get are generic trollish rants about 'zomg something I won't arse myself to expain annoys me so fix it ccp you bastages even though I gave you no indication about what was wrong or how I would fix it'..
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Marchocias + = +
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Yavanna Akallabeth
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:13:00 -
[23]
CCP is on a mission to release DUST, nothing else can stop this momentum. We can only wait and see what will happen after that event.
Till then, we grind on, hoping the Gods will see our struggles and have pity on us.
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Plutonian
Intransigent
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:16:00 -
[24]
You must be new here. The issues you're complaining about exist for a specific reason.
You see... CCP needs our money, but doesn't like or respect us very much. |
Nooma K'Larr
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Plutonian
You see... CCP needs our money, but doesn't like or respect us very much.
Just like a bad marriage.
-------------------------------------- If you don't like my posts, then why waste your time commenting in them? -------------------------------------- |
dankness420
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Wilet Fox Again, combat should be about tactics and strategy; about piloting your ship better than the other guy; about planning your engagements so as to give yourself an advantage over your enemy.
Have you actually flown a ship in PVP?
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Wilet Fox
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:36:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Zeba Same. I'm not really sure what people want when they say they need an improved ui. The ui I use does everything I need it to do in a minimalist visual fashion that saves tons of screen area. Now are there some bugs like colors on the overview getting mixed up? Sure, but a quick double tap of the tab key fixes nearly every display oriented ui bug in the game. Are there other annoying things like having to lock and unlock EVERY SINGLE BPO MANUALLY that could use a solution? FFS YES but that has zero to do with the ui. For once it would be nice to actually have the complainer detail out exactly what is wrong in their opinion about the ui and then put forward a solution that most people can agree on. But no, all we get are generic trollish rants about 'zomg something I won't arse myself to expain annoys me so fix it ccp you bastages even though I gave you no indication about what was wrong or how I would fix it'..
I think you meant to post that on a different thread. :)
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Balsak
Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:37:00 -
[28]
Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
Sigified.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Mathias Black
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Posted - 2010.06.13 05:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ranger 1 1: The UI is due for an update again (it has had several in the past).
Wha? The UI's been exactly the same since the game released. Unless you mean adding more buttons to the neocom when they add new features?
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