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Bourreau
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:09:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Cearain 2) allow all the frigs including t2. The second option would at least give some more variety instead of just tons thrashers.
As an added benefit there would finally be a reason to use EAS over recon.
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Flashh Gorden
COLD-Wing
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:14:00 -
[62]
Nothing wrong with letting destroyers in a minor plex. Up untill FW Destroyers were useless. The only reason to train them was because you needed destroyer 5 for interdictors. FW gave destroyers a new lease of life finaly these ships were doing the job they were supposed too. Sadly they are outclassed by the faction frigs and the golden day of the destroyer is gone again.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:57:00 -
[63]
Drams and Daredevils are a real problem (so is the Cynabel to a certain extent) in their extreme OP over just about any other frig size hull. The OPness is mainly in the speed, however, and a small nerf to that should bring them back into being still OP, but less so. 15% speed nerf should fix it.
That is probably flogging a dead horse, though. CCP doesn't seem to have much contact with the game these days with their obsession with the whole PI/Dust514 thing and I don't think things will improve much anymore. Better just to train up for a DD, Dram yourself and leave the rifters for thowaway tackle.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.28 12:48:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Flashh Gorden Nothing wrong with letting destroyers in a minor plex. Up untill FW Destroyers were useless. The only reason to train them was because you needed destroyer 5 for interdictors. FW gave destroyers a new lease of life finaly these ships were doing the job they were supposed too. Sadly they are outclassed by the faction frigs and the golden day of the destroyer is gone again.
Destroyers especially the thrasher is overpowered *in a minor plex*. I'm not saying they are overpowered as a whole but in a minor plex they are pretty ridiculous. At least with faction and pirate faction frigates they cost some money and therefore involve some additional risk. Moreover they add some variety instead of just more thrashers! The thrashers big disadvantage is its larger sig radius. They take more damage from larger guns than frigates. However in a minor plex this is no disadvantage at all because all the guns will be smaller guns anyway.
2 t1 friates can have a decent chance bring down a dramiel. Its very unlikely they can bring down a thrasher. Thrasher has about 8-9k ehp and @250 dps. Dramiel about 5-6ehp and 150 dps. Yeah the dram is faser so it has a better chance to escape two frigates. But the thrasher has absolutely no reason to escape them. It will just blow them up.
I agrees destroyers aren't great. But just allowing them in minor plexes to give them a boost is not a good idea.. I guess we could say the same thing about moas not being great, so why not let them in minors. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.28 16:40:00 -
[65]
Drams and daredevils are the king of the hill. You're either dead or you're flying one of them. No conceivable way any T1 frig (or really, any other faction frig) can survive an encounter.
There are counters to destroyers. 1) tracking disruptors, 2) You can kite a short range destroyer, you can get under the guns of a long range destroyer. But most importantly, 3) you can outrun a destroyer and have some ability to control range or disengage if things go bad. Destroyers win most of the time, but not all of the time. You even sometimes have a shot against a Thrasher, and almost always you can harrass them for a while for a little fun. Tracking disruptor Rifters are deadly (for example).
Also under the right circumstances, a T1 frig can take an interceptor - especially if he gets in web range.
Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.07.28 17:38:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 28/07/2010 17:39:32
Originally by: X Gallentius Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun.
I have found (trial and error with faction is expensive ) a Slicer fit that has an even chance against Dramiel's ("even" in this case meaning 'not automatic defeat'). Currently testing a back-up fit that is not as tailor made to open up a larger target pool. Requires an absurd amount of micro-management of range/cap/heat and for the opponent to miscalculate his approach .. but nailed two yesterday, both flown by experienced pilots. They both missed their approach so overshot me giving me several volleys "for free" as they slowed down.
Destroyers are very powerful but limited as you so expertly describe. The gap between them should be looked at though, Thrashers are just too damn good compared to the other three .. but still limited.
-Edit- Addendum: And no I will not share the fits
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.07.28 17:47:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Ralnik on 28/07/2010 17:47:51
Originally by: X Gallentius Drams and daredevils are the king of the hill. You're either dead or you're flying one of them. No conceivable way any T1 frig (or really, any other faction frig) can survive an encounter.
There are counters to destroyers. 1) tracking disruptors, 2) You can kite a short range destroyer, you can get under the guns of a long range destroyer. But most importantly, 3) you can outrun a destroyer and have some ability to control range or disengage if things go bad. Destroyers win most of the time, but not all of the time. You even sometimes have a shot against a Thrasher, and almost always you can harrass them for a while for a little fun. Tracking disruptor Rifters are deadly (for example).
Also under the right circumstances, a T1 frig can take an interceptor - especially if he gets in web range.
Once you engage a dram or daredevil you're dead. period. They have superior firepower and enough speed to disengage even if webbed. Not fun.
This is pretty much how I see it as well. Dessies are in no way OP like the Dram is as it really has no counter in minor plexes other than over powering force and then it's still not going to die but rather run away.
I wouldn't however put the daredevil on the same page as the Dram, simply because while yes the DD is a powerful frig it's weakness in the fact that it "has" to commit to a fight and doesn't have the same luxury or ability to get away as a Dram does.
Dessies however can almost always be countered or harassed and are not always able to flee so easily.
If you bump it up into cruisers in med plexes, the Cynabal is a nasty beast and obviously Op to anything else that can show up solo. However at least in med's you can counter a Cynabal with a Arbitrators and bonused tracking disruptors.
On the frig front however the only real counter in that way to a Dram is a sentinel because it's t1 variant the cruficer is just not up to par, with out a gang to support. At that point the Dram would run off because of the gang making the cruficer irrelevant.
If Sentinels could get into the Minors it would at least put a check in place for the Drams and give a way to counter them. However that would just further demote T1 frigs into uselessness in plexes.
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baembi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 02:20:00 -
[68]
greetings,
the best solution would be to introduce a new plex class that only allows vanilla t1 frigs. this would give the newbs a chance for some cheap and competetive pvp experience. they will get owned by deadspace fitted rifters and slaved tristans but they have a chance. i think everyone would like it.
Considering all the whine about factionfrigs ...adapt or ****ing die, there are alot ways to counter them, especially thrashers are designated to get rid of the lil pimpmobiles.
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Cattegirn
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Posted - 2010.07.29 03:33:00 -
[69]
I'm curious if anyone wants to take a guess, what portion of players *willing* to fly frigates in fw can fly Dramiels and afford them at typical loss rates? |
Sergei Le'Poof
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Posted - 2010.07.29 08:13:00 -
[70]
I can fly them but I refuse too not because of isk but because I hate how they look like a ram's head and because I thing they are broken(OP). I bet you though that even if the looked like a flying piece of horse**** people woul still fly them because they like to fly solopwnmobiles. I guess they are compensating for something, like people with flashy expensive cars.
Isk wise in FW you can make 70-100m an hour in level 4 missions (via unique lp items like navy cap booster charges, navy micro aux cores etc) so money is not really an issue. People hesitate to fly them though because they are afraid of thei kb isk ratio(lol) if they lose one.
Lots of pirates fly them too and annoyingly the last two I fought escaped because they were stabbed (now how lame is that?).
So: fly solo and small gangs? If you see dramiels(and angel ships in general) just refuse to engage them, run or blob the hell out of them if possible.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.29 10:12:00 -
[71]
Nah, most ppl refuse to fly them because most of your targets will just dont fight you /or fit especially to counter you/. Also these ships have unbelievable gtfo ability, so if you die, everyone knows YOU ****ed up as pilot.
Tbh i think they shouldnt be able to get into minor plexes but whatever. Daredevil? Its do or die so no one really thinks its THAT good /but yes, properly fitted it can probably kill every frig in game/.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:16:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Cattegirn I'm curious if anyone wants to take a guess, what portion of players *willing* to fly frigates in fw can fly Dramiels and afford them at typical loss rates?
When it comes to "typical loss rates" then the Dramiel is in a league of its own, they are only ever lost due to pilot error or faulty intel so anyone who can afford the down-payment can afford to fly them.
As for willingness to fly frigates .. as far as I am concerned it is the primary reason for being in FW, there is no other place in Eve where specialising in lights in the same way is viable. Frigates and cruisers are quite simply more fun (and challenging) to PvP in as damage/EHP/slot ratio is the best in Eve thus making pilot actions deciding factors rather than FoTM modules/fittings/ships.
Daredevils are still a rarity so I can not in good conscience make any judgements regarding their power. I do fear them though, mostly because of the 100% range/speed control they possess with the god-webs but also because they actually work pretty damn well with more than one fit so one can never know what is coming
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.02 21:06:00 -
[73]
You don't see more people flying drams because they aren't op for the price. Frigates wonĘt engage unless they are caught. If you run into 2 of anything you will likely not be able to fight. People understand their strengths now so your not going to get a bunch of free kills.
For minor plexes the Thrasher has about 25% more dps and ehp than a dram. I agree a tracking disruptor could be helpful. But keep in mind they do get a bonus for tracking and itĘs probably less than 10% of frigate fits have a tracking disruptor.
If I am with 2 t1 frigs I will go ahead and try to kill a dram. If they both have webs there is a good chance we can kill it. Would I engage a thrasher? Probably not why bother? Most likely result is we will both end up dead and even if we kill it ū its just a about 17 mill ship.
If I am in a dram would I engage a thrasher? Probably not. Would I engage a dram if I'm in a thrasher? sure.
I know of at least 1 t1 hull that can fight off a dram. It can't kill one but it can fight one off. No t1 hull that I know of would have a chance of fighting off a thrasher on 1v1 unless the thrasher screws up ū like has arties and lets an ab scram frig get in close orbit.
I admit I wouldnĘt really care if eve did away with destroyers altogether. They are basically built as an relatively unimaginative way to gank frigates.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.08.02 21:52:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Cearain No t1 hull that I know of would have a chance of fighting off a thrasher on 1v1 unless the thrasher screws up ū like has arties and lets an ab scram frig get in close orbit.
You are completely wrong on that part - destroyers have a disadvantage: they are slow. If I catch it, I have a chance in a t1 frigate. Unlike a dramiel which can disengage at will.
Some non-arty kills to back up my claim...
http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6721682 http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6551139 http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=5121026
etc...
Whenever I see a destroyer in my rifter - I go for it. Whenever I see a dram, there's no point. It's faster than me, tanks better than me, ganks better than me. At least destroyers have a tradeoff (albeit minor) against t1 frigates.
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Khai'ne
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.08.02 22:11:00 -
[75]
I joined FW recently to get my Caldari standings up, so I was just intending to plex in my Merlin and not look for any fights.
However in just a few hours of active play I've had a couple of good ones,running from Dramiels and Thrashers but apart from that, just engaging anything despite knowing I'll probably lose.
It's been good fun for me, so I'd say give it a go. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.02 23:47:00 -
[76]
Chat Nice kills especially the first one. The second one should train for t2 guns or at least use some sort of named guns. You killed him by doing 223 in damage. That must be a killmail error or he was very unskilled. I never even check to see how much damage regular t1 guns do. The third kill was actually a corm not a thrasher - a rail corm at that.
Let me ask on the thrashers do you just try to get in a tight orbit? Did you have a tracking disruptor or a web? Any faction implants or boosters?
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.08.03 00:16:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Cearain Chat Nice kills especially the first one. The second one should train for t2 guns or at least use some sort of named guns. You killed him by doing 223 in damage. That must be a killmail error or he was very unskilled. I never even check to see how much damage regular t1 guns do. The third kill was actually a corm not a thrasher - a rail corm at that.
Sorry about the corm (though I actually fear the 75mm rail corm just as much if not more than the ac thrasher when I'm in a rifter).
Here's another non-arty-thrasher km to make up for it :)
http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=4136759
I've got a LOT more that have the useless gallente npc's from a plex on there with 0 damage - they were practically solo kills.
It's been a long time, but I'm quite certain those km's with low damage are bugged.
Quote:
Let me ask on the thrashers do you just try to get in a tight orbit? Did you have a tracking disruptor or a web? Any faction implants or boosters?
My rifter losses and fits can be seen in great detail here: http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=324379&view=losses&scl_id=4
I'm a big fan of the TD, and my orbit depends on the targets configuration when I'm fighting a thrasher.
Are they MWD fit? Turn off the with a scram, get in close overheat the ab, tracking speed disruption and lots of overheating.
Are they AB fit? Kite at range (since I would have trouble keeping the transversal high enough otherwise) use an optimal range script, wear them down.
I'm not saying a rifter vs a dessie is a guaranteed win - but I've won a lot more rifter vs dessie fights than I've lost. I usually try to come to a fight at a slight disadvantage (smaller ship class, fewer numbers). You get more fights that way :) (This is also a reason I've flat out refused to fly the dramiel or daredevil. They are so overpowered, most people will just run from you).
Anyways - feel free to sift through my kills and losses against dessies on my kb. I think you'll find that destroyers aren't the i-win button you thought they were. At least not solo (a minor plex full of arty thrashers at range is a completely different scenario).
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.03 01:08:00 -
[78]
Thanks for the tips. I will freely admit I can see you are a better pilot than I am.
I can not really figure out all the tracking information from looking at eft. How close of an orbit can I keep? What does that mean if I have a tracking disruptor? etc. That can only be learned by practice. I am really just learning some of the basics right now at least when it comes to piloting on the fly.
I see a ton of destroyers and I may steal your fit. I see you switched to the ambits instead of tracking rigs. Were the tracking rigs really helpful? I never thought to put one a rifter because I figured if I was having problems hitting, then my enemy was having 2x as many problems.
The corm I would think is normally going to have a mwd if it is rail fit which means you are going to have trouble closing in. Against destroyers you don't get allot of time to figure out what you need to do. If I were to pick something that I would try against a dessie it would be something like your fit. But I really doubted it would work in practice.
Against the mwd destroyers how can you close the distance? They are faster than you arenĘt they? Do you keep the range or the tracking script in when you are trying to close? Do you use barrage as you are trying to close or do you just keep the faction ammo in until you can close in for the faster kill?
Thanks for the info. I realize that your not guaranteeing kills against destroyers with t1 but I see so many and I usually just run. I may try your fit and see if I can kill a few. Yeah I know it will be ugly.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.08.03 01:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Cearain Thanks for the tips. I will freely admit I can see you are a better pilot than I am.
I can not really figure out all the tracking information from looking at eft. How close of an orbit can I keep? What does that mean if I have a tracking disruptor? etc. That can only be learned by practice. I am really just learning some of the basics right now at least when it comes to piloting on the fly.
As close as you can! Skills help a LOT. Max out your nav and agility skills (Don't forget spaceship command to 5!). That will help you keep a tighter orbit. The 3% agility implant is a good deal, only runs a few mill. Agility agility agility.
Your signature radius also affect guns tracking you - IIRC (don't have time to check evehq) 200mm ac's have a signature resolution of 40, and a rifter has a sig of 35. You can plug away with formulas here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff
Originally by: Cearain
I see a ton of destroyers and I may steal your fit. I see you switched to the ambits instead of tracking rigs. Were the tracking rigs really helpful? I never thought to put one a rifter because I figured if I was having problems hitting, then my enemy was having 2x as many problems.
I think you're reading that backwards - I recently switch to tracking rigs over ambits.
Ambits give you more options to kite your target, but in my experience when I was overheated in at 500m, my guns would miss sometimes. Tracking rigs helped to mitigate that. They also help when tackling ships with drones - the tracking rigs have noticeably improved my ability to shoot down light drones without a web.
Originally by: Cearain
The corm I would think is normally going to have a mwd if it is rail fit which means you are going to have trouble closing in. Against destroyers you don't get allot of time to figure out what you need to do. If I were to pick something that I would try against a dessie it would be something like your fit. But I really doubted it would work in practice.
Against the mwd destroyers how can you close the distance? They are faster than you arenĘt they? Do you keep the range or the tracking script in when you are trying to close? Do you use barrage as you are trying to close or do you just keep the faction ammo in until you can close in for the faster kill?
Agility is key. First off, put an optimal range script on your td and make the dessie come closer. Burn away from the dessie, and then do an about turn to intersect it's orbit and at the same time overheat your AB (need to time this so you turn around as your AB starts a new cycle). Overheat your scram as well, and there is a good chance you can land a scram since a MWD dessie has a much worse agility than a frigate. (Back to dessies having some disadvantages vs a frigate).
You will take some hard knocks on the close approach, but if it's long range fit you can usually rep that up easily once you're under the guns.
Originally by: Cearain Thanks for the info. I realize that your not guaranteeing kills against destroyers with t1 but I see so many and I usually just run. I may try your fit and see if I can kill a few. Yeah I know it will be ugly.
Knowing what your opponent flies is key - I often look up the killboard of my opponent before engaging so I have an idea of what kind of dessie they like to fly.
Some general tactics -
vs close range fit dessies - burn in, orbit 500, overheat AB/SAR and NOS. You need the rep and cap - I only recommend overheating the guns around peak shield recharge vs the MSE thrasher, otherwise you want the to get that NOS going and giving you precious cap in my experience.
vs range fit dessies with a prop mod - this is tough. Optimal range td + range to start with, burn away and try to time an overheat cycle of the AB with a loop around and hope that your agility with a good intersect path will allow you to land a scram on the dessie.
(cont)
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.08.03 01:41:00 -
[80]
Edited by: chatgris on 03/08/2010 01:44:42 vs range fit dessie without a prop mod (these are actually quite popular) - start with a tracking speed script in your td, and burn in at an angle overheating the AB ofc.
One final note when fighting dessies - Always keep your AB and td running. Even if that means not repairing your armor. If your td or AB goes down - you're dead in a few seconds. Remember, the only thing you have over destroyers is superior agility, speed and the td. If they turn off - you will NOT win any tank vs gank games even if you can keep your repper going.
All this takes lots of practice to get down.. I lost many a rifter to dessies before I got the tactics worked out.
Unfortunately - there's a lot less frigate combat to be had nowadays due to the dramiel/daredevil. People used to feel like they were the king of the hill in a dessie in a minor, and you could often get a good fight going in with a rifter. Now, those same people tend to fly dramiels/daredevils and they chase all the other t1 frigs away.
But I wish you the best of luck finding those fights!
EDIT: One more thing - you can only look up your opponent maybe 25% of the time - often you need to decide then and there what to do. Always, ALWAYS have your combat log open. After he's taken one shot at you, your combat log will tell you what kind of gun he shot you with. There's also some voodoo with looking at ships and identifying what type of turret they have on. I haven't had the patience to work that one out yet.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.08.04 17:46:00 -
[81]
Thanks for the tips I may give that fit a try and do some dessie hunting. -Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
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