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Aurelius Valentius
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.06.17 06:56:00 -
[1]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1335065
Simple Solution is much the same as the .01 ISK trade solution - Miners need to set prices in a general manner that all can reference and follow as a general rule, much like couriers often do (the EVE un-written standard)
Someone needs to do the work of posting a general mineral price guide for all EVE to reference:
Ore X at X.XX ISK as a general rule, Mineral X at a X.XX ISK and so on.
Not that everyone would follow it, but it would be a general "Cartel" style of price setting - people could sell at whatever, but there would be a referenc of what each "should generally" be sold at.
This would be important for new players that simply mine and dump on the market and have no idea of even the simple Buy/Sell Order Process of moving items on the market.
I will fully admit to the idiocy of simply pushing "Sell" at whatever price was listed for the "Sell this item" for over a year before I read and found out about trade, .01 ISK and the like. Now I only ever sell with sell orders, I use the going rates to set orders and to work worth - something that I was totally obilivious to for a long time, it was all due to a "trading guide" - so perhaps (unless there is such a thing and I again state my ignorance/idiocy) there could be some kind of market rate guide.
Anyone take on this item for clarification or more info?
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Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2010.06.17 08:44:00 -
[2]
^^ This post is made of weaksauce. 1/10.
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Agente
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Posted - 2010.06.17 08:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Agente on 17/06/2010 08:48:00 Yes, I completely agree. Lets start with:
Trit 1000 isk Pye 5000 isk
and so on
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.06.17 09:08:00 -
[4]
This has been tried to do for several times at several places in the eve-universe, and as you have to bring it up again, it tells you that it never worked.
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BradleyJohnson
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Posted - 2010.06.17 09:22:00 -
[5]
Originally by: My Postman This has been tried to do for several times at several places in the eve-universe, and as you have to bring it up again, it tells you that it never worked.
indeed, the market is far too disparate, and simply enormous... the masses competing against you win out everytime. What you really need is to hit the over supply problem at the source... as Hulkageddon showed, was a very good way of boosting mineral prices
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Steve Celeste
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.06.17 09:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: BradleyJohnson as Hulkageddon showed, was a very good way of boosting mineral prices
It boosted prices by one whole percent
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Steirmann
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Posted - 2010.06.17 10:58:00 -
[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
/thread
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.17 11:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: BradleyJohnson
indeed, the market is far too disparate, and simply enormous... the masses competing against you win out everytime. What you really need is to hit the over supply problem at the source... as Hulkageddon showed, was a very good way of boosting mineral prices
There is, according to the QEN, roughly 16000 hulks in use. We destroyed 1200 exhumers about half to two thirds of which were hulks off the top of my head.
That's barely scratching the surface. For my events to impact the mineral market in a meaningful way I would have to run then almost back to back for months at a time to chip away at the existing ships, AND I would need for my players to destroy more hulks than would be built in response.
As much as I'd like to be that influential, I think that sort of monumental effort is far beyond the scope of what I can get people to do for lulz.
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Allvan Harl
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Posted - 2010.06.17 12:04:00 -
[9]
Haha. What you are proposing is price fixing or creating a cartel. That never works. Just look in the real world. OPEC? First thing everyone does is start cheating on their production levels to 'make a little bit more than the next guy'. Price fixing? Nixon tried that and and inflation was around 12-15%. Volker had to literally commit career suicide to fix it. Why do you think the Fed's #1 mission now is to keep inflation low?
You might get your prices for minerals, but those mining ships will skyrocket in price as producers adjust prices to pay for those price-fixed minerals. You think Hulkaggedon I and II were cool? Wait till the price of those Hulks rise back up around 500 million isk a ship. The pirates will start drooling again and Hulkageddon will be a weekly occurance.
As they say, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Let the market be. Rather than whine about it not doing what you want it to do, examine it to find what is profitable and do that.
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BradleyJohnson
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Posted - 2010.06.17 12:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: BradleyJohnson on 17/06/2010 12:58:41 Edited by: BradleyJohnson on 17/06/2010 12:57:35
Originally by: Steve Celeste
It boosted prices by one whole percent
Really, so little? I would have sworn that it had a greater effect where I was, but then maybe it was just some other macro-market event. How did you work it out?
Originally by: Helicity Boson
There is, according to the QEN, roughly 16000 hulks in use. We destroyed 1200 exhumers about half to two thirds of which were hulks off the top of my head.
That's barely scratching the surface. For my events to impact the mineral market in a meaningful way I would have to run then almost back to back for months at a time to chip away at the existing ships, AND I would need for my players to destroy more hulks than would be built in response.
As much as I'd like to be that influential, I think that sort of monumental effort is far beyond the scope of what I can get people to do for lulz.
You may only have scratched the surface, but you don't just affect the market by destroying Hulks (or Exhumers), but you put the fear of God into miners in general, by making the risks seem more real, and you would affect mineral production that way (miners take fewer risks, and produce less). You may argue that it's impossible to measure, but I maintain it's still a very real, and macro scale effect. Just as a disclaimer: I am a little hazy on when they've taken place, and I haven't tried to crunch numbers myself. I just had the impression that there was a correlation.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.17 13:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: BradleyJohnson
Just as a disclaimer: I am a little hazy on when they've taken place, and I haven't tried to crunch numbers myself. I just had the impression that there was a correlation.
Well, i'm glad there are at least a few people that realize hulkageddon really isnt really about popping hard working players that are at the keyboard :)
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Seminole Sun
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Posted - 2010.06.17 13:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: BradleyJohnson
Just as a disclaimer: I am a little hazy on when they've taken place, and I haven't tried to crunch numbers myself. I just had the impression that there was a correlation.
Well, i'm glad there are at least a few people that realize hulkageddon really isnt really about popping hard working players that are at the keyboard :)
Did you find that Hulks or Mackinaw's were more likely to have Pods sitting around afterwards?
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.17 15:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Seminole Sun
Did you find that Hulks or Mackinaw's were more likely to have Pods sitting around afterwards?
I honestly can't tell you, Im only telling you about the things that were heard frequently in the event channel during hulkageddon II.
I /do/ know from personal experience that its /not just/ hulks no, I was present for the smartbombing of a bunch of macks and the pods were there the next morning.
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Khun SP
Paramite Factories
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Posted - 2010.06.17 15:42:00 -
[14]
Totally agree with Bradley, btw nice to see you mate more risks = less likely to do some mining = higher prices.
The cartel idea is waste of time. As everyone knows, the invisible hand rules the markets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.06.17 16:13:00 -
[15]
The best way to raise mineral prices is for miners to stop mining. As supply drops, prices will go up.
However, the equilibrium point at which a given pilot decides the activity no longer produces enough revenue will vary from one player to another. This means the market determines the prices -- you might think the trit price is too low, but if everyone else thinks it's fine, guess what happens?
--
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Bad Princess
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.17 16:21:00 -
[16]
But............but............but........I mine my minerals, so they are free!
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2010.06.17 16:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Casiella Truza The best way to raise mineral prices is for miners to stop mining. As supply drops, prices will go up.
However, the equilibrium point at which a given pilot decides the activity no longer produces enough revenue will vary from one player to another. This means the market determines the prices -- you might think the trit price is too low, but if everyone else thinks it's fine, guess what happens?
The fact that 'enough revenue' varies from player to player is exactly why there is a problem.
For an active player that mines because he wants to mine, 10m/hr is pretty much the floor before mining is no longer worthwhile.
For a 23/7 macro that only needs to buy plex for 2 accounts, 870k/hr is break even, and anything beyond that is gravy.
If you believe that letting the market set the floor for mining income is the right answer by itself, then you believe that mining is not a viable carrer for an active player, and only macros should mine.
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Clansworth
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Posted - 2010.06.17 17:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Casiella Truza The best way to raise mineral prices is for miners to stop mining. As supply drops, prices will go up.
However, the equilibrium point at which a given pilot decides the activity no longer produces enough revenue will vary from one player to another. This means the market determines the prices -- you might think the trit price is too low, but if everyone else thinks it's fine, guess what happens?
The fact that 'enough revenue' varies from player to player is exactly why there is a problem.
For an active player that mines because he wants to mine, 10m/hr is pretty much the floor before mining is no longer worthwhile.
For a 23/7 macro that only needs to buy plex for 2 accounts, 870k/hr is break even, and anything beyond that is gravy.
If you believe that letting the market set the floor for mining income is the right answer by itself, then you believe that mining is not a viable carrer for an active player, and only macros should mine.
The good news being that macro's don't impact high ends as much... Head out to 0.0, or better yet, w-space, and make your mining money there... Intel/Nomad |
FunzzeR
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.06.17 17:43:00 -
[19]
You generally find that cartels fail to maintain the desired quota or price, unless the cartel has a credible means to enforce the agreement. Which is impossible given the large numbers of participants. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2010.06.17 18:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Clansworth The good news being that macro's don't impact high ends as much... Head out to 0.0, or better yet, w-space, and make your mining money there...
I'll agree with you about WH space, you are NEVER safe there. Macros & AFKs in WH space are suicidal.
In 0.0 otoh, it doesn't take much to secure a dead end constellation, making the area a haven for semi-attended or multi-boxed mining. All the 'miner' needs to do is come by every 5-10 minutes to drop ore from his hold. If a scout sounds the alarm the foreman warps the fleet to a death-star.
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Journey Man
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Posted - 2010.06.17 18:16:00 -
[21]
All pointless. The real problem is that there is a very limited market for asteroid minerals. I have just started producing T2 stuff and the minerals required are still easily provided by the odd mission (apart from Morphite). Quite frankly with a glut of nearly everything on the market I wouldn't be making anything except that I have some dodgy customers who can't visit high sec.
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Clansworth
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Posted - 2010.06.17 19:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Clansworth The good news being that macro's don't impact high ends as much... Head out to 0.0, or better yet, w-space, and make your mining money there...
I'll agree with you about WH space, you are NEVER safe there. Macros & AFKs in WH space are suicidal.
In 0.0 otoh, it doesn't take much to secure a dead end constellation, making the area a haven for semi-attended or multi-boxed mining. All the 'miner' needs to do is come by every 5-10 minutes to drop ore from his hold. If a scout sounds the alarm the foreman warps the fleet to a death-star.
I didn't say you couldn't macro in 0.0, or w-space for that matter, just that the numbers of those willing/capable to do so are so small that they don't 'impact the high-ends as much' as the low ends. This, IMHO, is the key reason those top end ores are still profitable. Intel/Nomad |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.06.17 20:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow
Originally by: Casiella Truza
However, the equilibrium point at which a given pilot decides the activity no longer produces enough revenue will vary from one player to another.
The fact that 'enough revenue' varies from player to player is exactly why there is a problem.
[...]
If you believe that letting the market set the floor for mining income is the right answer by itself, then you believe that mining is not a viable carrer for an active player, and only macros should mine.
No, I believe that a fair player market should set the floor. CCP should continue to remove macro-miners and anyone else breaking rules, as they break the market model. In other words, a free market doesn't mean "anything goes", it means anyone can compete within the rules and regulations.
--
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2010.06.17 21:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Casiella Truza
CCP should continue to remove macro-miners and anyone else breaking rules...
Continue to remove macro-miners? Don't you mean they should start removing macro-miners?
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.06.17 22:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Casiella Truza However, the equilibrium point at which a given pilot decides the activity no longer produces enough revenue will vary from one player to another.
And for someone that macro mines, and is signed up with multi R&D agents to pay for free game time on the account, there is virtually no low end point where he stops macro-ing.
That is, of course, until CCP gets very serious about going after the macros and banning them.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.06.17 22:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Journey Man All pointless. The real problem is that there is a very limited market for asteroid minerals.
I would agree with this. It is pretty easy to start using most T2 mods, and even if you can't use T2 there is a glut of named and meta 0 coming from missions.
Ditto drones.
That leaves only ammo and T1 ships to use up the minerals. My main PVP's pretty regularly, and I lose a lot of frigs and cruisers. Less so with battleship. People consider it a MAJOR score to get a VERY infrequent carrier or dread(or major afront losing one).
I hear capitals pop like pop rocks in 0.0, but I'm not sure how many of the minerals for those come from the corps own mining ops vs. buying at high sec trade hubs.
Let's check the minmatar kill board and see what T1 ships we claim to have killed this week... 68 frigs 36 destroyers 54 cruisers 77 battle cruisers (really, that many?) and 46 battleships (Again, I'm surprised it is that high)
That isn't going to support an army of macros.
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Jay Wareth
Amici Noctis
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Posted - 2010.06.18 00:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I hear capitals pop like pop rocks in 0.0, but I'm not sure how many of the minerals for those come from the corps own mining ops vs. buying at high sec trade hubs.
Here's a hint: I am going to build my first carrier with one month's worth of refined loot from ratting, and I don't even work that hard. With PI meaning that we can produce our POS in 0.0 there is very little reason for most of us to even go to empire, ever. Even my single system renter alliance is pretty much totaly self sustaining. The most effect we might have on the hi sec markets is selling excess minerals and high meta/ faction loot.
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BradleyJohnson
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Posted - 2010.06.18 07:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jay Wareth
Here's a hint: I am going to build my first carrier with one month's worth of refined loot from ratting, and I don't even work that hard. With PI meaning that we can produce our POS in 0.0 there is very little reason for most of us to even go to empire, ever. Even my single system renter alliance is pretty much totaly self sustaining. The most effect we might have on the hi sec markets is selling excess minerals and high meta/ faction loot.
I think there is a serious problem! New players struggle to compete in empire, because Macros push prices to the floor. While those in Null-Sec have little or no interaction with Empire, and pretty much just get richer. Anyone wanting to have a decent gaming experience has to grind sh*t forever before a non-empire corp is willing to take them on, and they are always strapped for cash. Having chosen mining as a main earner (from time invested training-wise) How much fun are you going to have if after 6 months of playing you can still only fit a T1 Battlecruiser, just? The answer - multiple accounts and PLEX whoring, and why would CCP want to stop that?
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.06.18 09:59:00 -
[29]
Edited by: My Postman on 18/06/2010 10:01:36
Originally by: Allvan Harl Haha. What you are proposing is price fixing or creating a cartel. That never works. Just look in the real world. OPEC? First thing everyone does is start cheating on their production levels to 'make a little bit more than the next guy'. Price fixing? Nixon tried that and and inflation was around 12-15%. Volker had to literally commit career suicide to fix it. Why do you think the Fed's #1 mission now is to keep inflation low?
You might get your prices for minerals, but those mining ships will skyrocket in price as producers adjust prices to pay for those price-fixed minerals. You think Hulkaggedon I and II were cool? Wait till the price of those Hulks rise back up around 500 million isk a ship. The pirates will start drooling again and Hulkageddon will be a weekly occurance.
As they say, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Let the market be. Rather than whine about it not doing what you want it to do, examine it to find what is profitable and do that.
Haven¦t seen Hulk prices over 200m during (and short after) Hulkageddon 2, at least not Jita or other major hubs. There where other ships you made 100 % profit, and thanks to Helicity i started producing/buying them again.
As mining in highsec came useless after Tyrannis/insurance nerf, i will be happily doing my L4¦s, and hope to make a lot of profit in "other" ships.
Good luck to Helicity.
Edit: spelling
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.06.18 12:06:00 -
[30]
It's all the macros that ccp continues to allow run a muck.
I mean who the hell really mines ore for fun? --
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you." -John Wooden |
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