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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.18 18:38:00 -
[91]
Not bothering to read the thread past the op since I already know what has been said probably down to the exact wording. I will say this however: Isn't it a comforting thought that given the nature of the game and moast especially the nature of its players that eve has only managed to accumulate a little over 300k subs given its worldwide exposure and generally excellent reviews? Maybe a data point to add to your ongoing social experiment PrismX?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Matthias Howe
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.18 18:45:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Matthias Howe on 18/06/2010 18:45:08
Originally by: omgfreemoniez Edited by: omgfreemoniez on 18/06/2010 18:25:34
Originally by: Horus Val The real world is a harsh place, I'm afraid, and New Eden is no exception to that rule.
If you saw a blind old lady in the street drop her purse, would you take it and walk off? No witnesses.
No, but your point is well taken, indeed. I'm Horus Val as well btw - just hit the wrong profile.
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Julius Blackstar
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Posted - 2010.06.18 18:49:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Zeba Not bothering to read the thread past the op since I already know what has been said probably down to the exact wording. I will say this however: Isn't it a comforting thought that given the nature of the game and moast especially the nature of its players that eve has only managed to accumulate a little over 300k subs given its worldwide exposure and generally excellent reviews? Maybe a data point to add to your ongoing social experiment PrismX?
Last I checked, 300K subscribers is actually on the higher-end of subscriptions for a quality MMORPG. If you are comparing to WoW, that one is a total phenomenon.
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Obyrith
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Posted - 2010.06.18 18:59:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Blane Xero These days I kill players who do something stupid or stand to (hopefully) learn something from being killed. An example being some idiot who was mining in a Barge in a 0.4 system with a jump to Hisec, in the first belt of the system at the warp in point mining into a can.
He wasn't pleased, but it taught him he was doing something stupid.
Yeah, mining.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.18 19:10:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Julius Blackstar
Originally by: Zeba Not bothering to read the thread past the op since I already know what has been said probably down to the exact wording. I will say this however: Isn't it a comforting thought that given the nature of the game and moast especially the nature of its players that eve has only managed to accumulate a little over 300k subs given its worldwide exposure and generally excellent reviews? Maybe a data point to add to your ongoing social experiment PrismX?
Last I checked, 300K subscribers is actually on the higher-end of subscriptions for a quality MMORPG. If you are comparing to WoW, that one is a total phenomenon.
Oh I'm not talking about which mmo has the biggest subscriberbase or even why eve only has around 300k of them. I'm talking about the mind set of those 300k subscribers. Something that your comparison shows quite nicely though probably not in the way you are thinking.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Indimiel
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Posted - 2010.06.18 19:26:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Zeba Oh I'm not talking about which mmo has the biggest subscriberbase or even why eve only has around 300k of them. I'm talking about the mind set of those 300k subscribers. Something that your comparison shows quite nicely though probably not in the way you are thinking.
Not bothering to read your posts since I can use my great psychic powers to see and foresee everything you have ever said or will say, but given the detailed psychological profile I have accumulated of you and your family through the not-at-all-abstract interaction I have had with you through internet forums and make-belief spaceship pilot games I will be evemailing you the RSVP to be my best man, as you are clearly a superior person to anyone one will ever have a chance to meet.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.18 19:30:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Indimiel
Originally by: Zeba Oh I'm not talking about which mmo has the biggest subscriberbase or even why eve only has around 300k of them. I'm talking about the mind set of those 300k subscribers. Something that your comparison shows quite nicely though probably not in the way you are thinking.
Not bothering to read your posts since I can use my great psychic powers to see and foresee everything you have ever said or will say, but given the detailed psychological profile I have accumulated of you and your family through the not-at-all-abstract interaction I have had with you through internet forums and make-belief spaceship pilot games I will be evemailing you the RSVP to be my best man, as you are clearly a superior person to anyone one will ever have a chance to meet.
Wow! See what I mean about the comforting thought? I was simply stating that eve has a very aggressive and ruthless playerbase. Now imagine if there were even moar of them..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Indimiel
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:27:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Zeba I was simply stating that eve has a very aggressive and ruthless playerbase. Now imagine if there were even moar of them..
Is it your submission that:
I - players in other games such as any FPS, WoW pvp servers, mafia wars, etc. do not indulge in any and all actions allowable within the scope of the rules and mechanics to demonstrate their avatar is superior to another player's? II - people should not indulge their aggressive impulses in a game and save them up for real life? III - all of the 300k players are exceptionally aggressive and ruthless, and defy any manner of standard distribution?
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:28:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Indimiel
Originally by: Zeba I was simply stating that eve has a very aggressive and ruthless playerbase. Now imagine if there were even moar of them..
Is it your submission that:
I - players in other games such as any FPS, WoW pvp servers, mafia wars, etc. do not indulge in any and all actions allowable within the scope of the rules and mechanics to demonstrate their avatar is superior to another player's? II - people should not indulge their aggressive impulses in a game and save them up for real life? III - all of the 300k players are exceptionally aggressive and ruthless, and defy any manner of standard distribution?
I submit that EVE is full of pseudo-intellectual trolls.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:30:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Indimiel
Originally by: Zeba I was simply stating that eve has a very aggressive and ruthless playerbase. Now imagine if there were even moar of them..
Is it your submission that:
I - players in other games such as any FPS, WoW pvp servers, mafia wars, etc. do not indulge in any and all actions allowable within the scope of the rules and mechanics to demonstrate their avatar is superior to another player's? II - people should not indulge their aggressive impulses in a game and save them up for real life? III - all of the 300k players are exceptionally aggressive and ruthless, and defy any manner of standard distribution?
Wat? I don't think you are getting it mate..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:34:00 -
[101]
I think OP has a very legitimate point.
The only way past it is to consider expectations. The OP legitimizes an expectation that there are times in Eve when you are safe.
That's a false expectation. By design, this is a game based on constant risk.
Surely its not for everyone, but once you accept that Eve is actually based on constant risk and no assured safety, you'll come to expect the argument, which is true, that you consent to PvP by logging in ....
As for the sociopaths who derive pleasure from shattering others who share the false-expectation that there is some safety in the game, well yeah - I agree. It is somewhat disturbing. But I'd rather they do embrace their evil impulses here in a game then IRL.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:51:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Zeba Wat? I don't think you are getting it mate..
Yes but your conversation with him is one of the most entertaining things on the boards today.
That's kind of a sad statement isn't it... -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Aerilis
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.18 20:52:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist I think OP has a very legitimate point.
The only way past it is to consider expectations. The OP legitimizes an expectation that there are times in Eve when you are safe.
That's a false expectation. By design, this is a game based on constant risk.
Surely its not for everyone, but once you accept that Eve is actually based on constant risk and no assured safety, you'll come to expect the argument, which is true, that you consent to PvP by logging in ....
As for the sociopaths who derive pleasure from shattering others who share the false-expectation that there is some safety in the game, well yeah - I agree. It is somewhat disturbing. But I'd rather they do embrace their evil impulses here in a game then IRL.
This guy gets it :) Thanks for this well thought out post, hope you don't mind if I quote it in my OP.
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Meckle Moiyal
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Posted - 2010.06.18 21:17:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 18/06/2010 20:58:27 the question remains though as whether the Eve playerbase is sadistic because the game makes you sadistic and ruthless, or because the game attracts such personalities. If it is indeed the former, those impulses may spill out into RL. Which would be bad :/
I think people become sadistic and ruthless in eve through adaptation to the environment. In a universe with no overriding moral authority and lack of consequences(such as irl, eg death, loss of everything and not just what clothes you have on today.)its is simply the most emotionally efficient way to cope.
In this environment the most humane thing one can do is to instill this in others as harshly and rapidly as possible. They are suffering unduly in the buddist sense of things. You must expose them to this suffering so they can adapt themselves and grow. In eve Love = Tough Love.
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Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.06.18 21:28:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
I don't play Eve to pirate, steal, and scam. Scamming and stealing in Eve is easy, trying to become known as someone whose honest is not. There's pretty much nothing that anyone could do to me, or offer me ingame to make me want to "ruin" my reputation (though atm i don't have one of any note.)
Buddies \0/
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Auwnie Morohe
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Posted - 2010.06.18 23:57:00 -
[106]
Its called empathy.
Some people, like you, experience it a lot. Most people experience it a little. And psychopaths lack the ability completely.
BTW im not saying all griefers are psychopaths. Also, being better able to feel what others might be feeling is a great asset in pvp.
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Qolde
Minmatar art of eve Gunmen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.06.19 03:47:00 -
[107]
I think it's a odd little bubble us Eve players live in. This is the only place where a scammer, thief and a griefer doesn't get banned for his actions, so there would naturally have to be a higher percentage of these player types here. This game allows you that freedom.
Eve is a pretty good example of the prisoner's dilemma in action. By not being hostile towards other parties, you risk being a victim, even though if you both were non-aggressive the payoff would be greater(ie. forming a bigger blob for next time, safe carebearing activities).
The hostility towards newer players comes from more than one source. First of all, there's the noob alt/scout/spy, which we all know well and hate. This is a character who is new, but the player behind it is already a hardened vet, and is already aligned to some faction, and probably does not like you. You have to kill these people even though it can be quite hard to tell them apart from honest new players.
The second reason people kill new players is because of an inferiority complex. They've been blown up so many times that they feel so powerful when they finally get that rifter kill. Everyone wants to be Keyser Soze in this game. So mercy is seen as weakness, even though it takes more balls to drop your guard and let the little fish go.
The final reason people kill new players, is tradition. It's now part of the game, and there's a thousand excuses to cop a global for a shuttle with 2 exotic dancers in it. "He was in lowsec he knew the risks." "A kill is a kill." "I just like blowing stuff up." "I am trying to get my K/D ratio up." "My finger slipped."
These excuses make it okay to kill things that cost you more in time and ammo than you get from these kills. Sadly most "PVPers" don't see much point in this game past killboards, but as much attention they pay to them, they don't notice that most kills by "top" pvper's are just ganks on noobs. Every once in a while there's a true good fight in there, but it's mostly fluff. They dont' realize that some unknown player with a rather crappy killboard sitting in a highsec trade hub could kick their ass 1v1 in almost any shiptype, and some nonpirate fleet could kick their ass 5v5 or 20v20. Of course, the laws of war dictate that a fair fight is not favorable, which is cool too. But don't go bragging about how you're so elite because you killed a cruiser 5v1.
This doesn't matter, they'll troll and smack, because it makes them feel better about themselves, and they'll continue to gank noobs because somehow it does the same.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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ObviousTroll Alt
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.06.19 04:50:00 -
[108]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez Edited by: omgfreemoniez on 18/06/2010 18:25:34
Originally by: Horus Val The real world is a harsh place, I'm afraid, and New Eden is no exception to that rule.
If you saw a blind old lady in the street drop her purse, would you take it and walk off? No witnesses.
Yes
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Cozmik R5
Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:16:00 -
[109]
If you have to ask the question, you are.
Contract stuff to Cozmik R5 plzkthxbai ____________________
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:23:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Ehnea Mehk Edited by: Ehnea Mehk on 18/06/2010 09:11:47
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 18/06/2010 04:53:10 Eve is a cold, ruthless game, I know that. There are scammers and ebil pirates behind every roid. I really like PvP in Eve, but I could never get over that when I killed an unsuspecting noob, I was destroying potentially hours of work they put into their ship.
I have absolutely no problem with killing (whether through fair fights or ganks) people who are similar to me, who are consenting to PvP and have no problem with losing their ships. This was one of the reasons I joined FW, because by being in FW you're consenting to PvP anywhere, anytime by enemy militias. But when I hear stories about other people who play the game only to harm others, ganking miners, griefing mission runners, scamming noobs in Jita, pirates not honoring ransoms and laughing maniacally as they pod every innocent person who comes through their system, it makes me uneasy. I mean you always have your griefers in every game, people who rely on ruining other peoples day in order to grow their e-peen. What concerns me, though, is that such a large percentage of the Eve population participates in and encourages this behavior.
Am I too soft for this game? Should I give you all my stuff? Do I need to HTFU?
They consent to PVP when they click the undock button.
Actually no, when I undock in 1.0 space, I do so because I am not here to PvP against a player. That's why I go to high-sec space in the first place where CONCORD is. If I wanted to PvP, I would go to low-sec space. And yeah, there are people out there who do attack other players just out of sheer delight of making them unhappy and uncomfortable, particularly when the person, in high-sec space, is unarmed. I'm not sure what it is called in other countries, but this particular sort of "combat" is called bullying.
I hope you dont lose anything too expensive when you find out for yourself that you're playing some kind of dream-version of EVE that doesn't really exist.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Chopper Rollins
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:28:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Natalie Caladan Edited by: Natalie Caladan on 18/06/2010 13:07:48 The fear of punishment stops most people from committing crimes, not the absence of the possibility.
NOPE. Fear of punishment deters criminals who lack the qualities that stop 'most' people from committing crimes, like decency, self-esteem and empathy. Just had to throw that out, carry on.
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Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:39:00 -
[112]
A tournament subsystem, running through eve, parallel to pvp, would both prepare pilots properly for pvp, and serve to settle the `who is best` debate.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.19 11:55:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Qolde
You should naptrain everyone and not engage in that stupid thing called peeeveeepee
Most of 0.0 is taking your advice already.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Ultim8Evil
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.06.19 13:23:00 -
[114]
Is this thread not getting a little bit too "deep" for a game?
I very much doubt that anyone, n00b or not, will be found in their car with the garage door shut and the engine running just because you pewpewed their internets spaceship.
I fully expect my arse to be handed to me on a plate at any time, hence, I fly with the intent to do the same to others given the chance. That is the risk of undocking.
Having said that, I don't know how -10.0 toons get enjoyment out of the game. I went -10.0 about 3 years ago and hated it. Maybe I should have had a 2nd account in Empire, but it felt like I'd closed the door on the whole EVE "experience".
In conclusion, 99.99% of players in EVE don't care/worry about other players' feelings. The 0.01% that do are handicapped by this as soon as they undock. --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Mercurye
Nubian Sundance
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Posted - 2010.06.19 13:41:00 -
[115]
Hi Aerilis!
I cant speak for you or anyone else, but what keeps my EVE-sanity is just taking breaks and rotate in the activities I do (Sometimes a little missioning, wormholes, exploration)
I also tend to strike up a conversation or respond in kind when I get convo'd myself by someone and give them some money or a pat/hug. Just to give them a feeling of understanding despite the game's environment and rules
I'll never be that die-hard and famed PvPer, and neither the brave little trader who never sad a bad thing; Its good to try to be yourself even if you sometimes doubt about whether you should change
Good luck, wherever that might lead :)
~~~~~~~~~~Sade~~~~~~~~~~ *I'm a Soldier of Love, all the days in my life* |
Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.06.19 13:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 18/06/2010 17:27:04 To clarify: I am not a griefer and do not mind getting griefed, I live in low-sec and am knowledgeable enough about the game to be relatively prosperous in my PvP adventures. My point is that so much of the playerbase of Eve seems to enjoy causing emotional harm to other players, and when questioned about how they can be fine with that they give cookie cutter responses like "they consent to PvP when they undock" and "I'm doing them a favor by teaching them a lesson". I am troubled that they find so much joy in the distress of others.
A perfect example was the post 2 above this one:
Originally by: Riedle This game is about people blowing up each other's spaceships.
If someone has their feelers hurt because you blew up their imaginary spaceship, the problem is theirs and you should feel an obligation to help them rid themselves of imaginary entitlements by blowing up their next ship as well.
Either way they will eventually 'get it' or quit.
Either outcome is good for the game.
LOL
Wait - you want me to feel guilty about a 27 year old emotionally stunted human being who emo rages about losing an internet spaceship?
Is your life so blessed as to think that that is something worthy of pity?
It is a sign of emotional immaturity and if they yell and scream cause someone blows up their internet spaceship then I am pulling a Nelson and saying 'Haaaa ha" and don't fell the least bit bad about it. Not one bit.
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Mercurye
Nubian Sundance
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Posted - 2010.06.19 14:23:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Auwnie Morohe Its called empathy.
Some people, like you, experience it a lot. Most people experience it a little. And psychopaths lack the ability completely.
BTW im not saying all griefers are psychopaths. Also, being better able to feel what others might be feeling is a great asset in pvp.
Best post since a while by the way ^^
~~~~~~~~~~Sade~~~~~~~~~~ *I'm a Soldier of Love, all the days in my life* |
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.19 15:24:00 -
[118]
There is a very large disconnect between how certain types of player actions are perceived by others, and how they are experienced by the person doing them.
The ebil pirate that just blew up your innocent hauler and trolled you in local? There is a VERY good chance he is an incredibly nice person in real life, well-adjusted, and in the case of several people I know, does volunteer work to help the sick and elderly.
They just like to play the bad guy, just like some other like to play the trader, the manufacturing mogul or the drug smuggler.
None of these playstyles are more or less valid than any others.
I feel a lot of arguing and frustration about the way certain things in EVE are as opposed to how new players think it will be could be prevented by making extra-super-duper-mega-sure that EVERYONE understands that nowhere in space is completely safe. ever. EVER.
This is an incontrovertible part of EVE's design. It is a FACT, it will NEVER change and CCP wants it that way.
Without meaning to sound harsh, if you are not prepared to deal with this reality, then you will probably not enjoy EVE in the long term. If you can see past it, work around it, and use it to your advantage... you will prosper.
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.06.19 15:49:00 -
[119]
"You consent to PVP when you undock."
No. You (should) accept the possibility and prepare for PvP when you undock/log on. That doesn't mean you consent to PvP. If I cross a busy street, then I have to (or should if I have any sense) accept the possiblity that someone might run me down with a car. I'm not however giving anyone my consent to do so. |
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.19 15:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Hainnz "You consent to PVP when you undock."
No. You (should) accept the possibility and prepare for PvP when you undock/log on. That doesn't mean you consent to PvP. If I cross a busy street, then I have to (or should if I have any sense) accept the possiblity that someone might run me down with a car. I'm not however giving anyone my consent to do so.
Good thing then, that a core principle of EVE online is non-consentual PVP.
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