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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:A lot of debate is being made regarding bombs in high sec. I put forth that only the non lethal bomb types of Void and Lockbreaker be available for use in high security space. Since these types cannot kill, the absence of a security hit from using them is also of less impact. (Remote detonate still gets sec status hit) Yes, because neuting and jamming aren't hostile or harmful at all. Neuting and jamming are effective combat tactics in support of DPS.
However, any tactic without guidance and direction has very limited value.
It is entirely possible that in HS space some fights might start after a bomb is used.
It is not at all likely to be the decisive element in such a conflict. Too inefficient compared to already available tactics. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Feather Storm wrote:This would be grieffed to hell and back even with just the lockbreaker and void bombs usable in HS.
Here is what would happen. I'll pick the juiciest target, an Ice mining op, and the most appropriate weapon, the lockbreaker.
1: Ice mining op sets up nice long cycle time so they are stuck there. 2: Drop a lockbreaker in the middle of the fleet on a timer weather they leave to avoid it or stay and get hit with it I have just screwed their op. 3: I can do this over and over with no ability on their part to stop me and no sec hit or CONCORD response.
Welcome to free grieffing and Ice only coming from Null and Low. Out there people just shoot you for getting close to their mining ops.
added bonus by your logic as long as I have a legit reason like being a member of a low/Null corp/alliance they can't even successfully report me for grieffing to a GM no matter how often I do this to them. I always have an "in game reason" to do it. I'm just looking to improve/maintain my alliance/corp's profits.
So no this is not a good Idea at all.
One last thing in nature violence is never random, it may be unexpected but it is never random. Ahhh, I am a miner. Since you must be describing high sec, I will treat it like that. Your griefer had to wait until the op was running to know where to plant the device. Assuming our rat tanker could not simply pop it, we work around it. Void bomb? Who cares, our exhumers need to be cap stable, so they will regenerate before it becomes a problem. Lockbreaker? I read the OP, so unless everyone is AFK, they just move OUTSIDE the 10 KM radius. The best your griefer can do is make possibly one piece of ice annoying for unboosted macks. We get bigger headaches from rats. You DO realize we need to warp out and back if they aggro the wrong ship, right? We expect interruptions. Hardly enough to ruin an op. All done. By your logic: what prevents the original griefer from coming back and planting a new bomb? Are we expected to constantly move? How would you effectively mine then? Macks have enough range with ice harvesters to simply shift outside the radius. We already need to move, and be ready to warp thanks to gankers and rats. That lockbreaker range limit means we won't even need to break cycle, just shift before 10 minutes is up, and lock onto a new berg outside that area for next cycle.
I wish this was the worst problem we had to deal with. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
72
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Posted - 2012.07.24 20:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Feather Storm wrote:This would be grieffed to hell and back even with just the lockbreaker and void bombs usable in HS.
Here is what would happen. I'll pick the juiciest target, an Ice mining op, and the most appropriate weapon, the lockbreaker.
1: Ice mining op sets up nice long cycle time so they are stuck there. 2: Drop a lockbreaker in the middle of the fleet on a timer weather they leave to avoid it or stay and get hit with it I have just screwed their op. 3: I can do this over and over with no ability on their part to stop me and no sec hit or CONCORD response.
Welcome to free grieffing and Ice only coming from Null and Low. Out there people just shoot you for getting close to their mining ops.
added bonus by your logic as long as I have a legit reason like being a member of a low/Null corp/alliance they can't even successfully report me for grieffing to a GM no matter how often I do this to them. I always have an "in game reason" to do it. I'm just looking to improve/maintain my alliance/corp's profits.
So no this is not a good Idea at all.
One last thing in nature violence is never random, it may be unexpected but it is never random. Ahhh, I am a miner. Since you must be describing high sec, I will treat it like that. Your griefer had to wait until the op was running to know where to plant the device. Assuming our rat tanker could not simply pop it, we work around it. Void bomb? Who cares, our exhumers need to be cap stable, so they will regenerate before it becomes a problem. Lockbreaker? I read the OP, so unless everyone is AFK, they just move OUTSIDE the 10 KM radius. The best your griefer can do is make possibly one piece of ice annoying for unboosted macks. We get bigger headaches from rats. You DO realize we need to warp out and back if they aggro the wrong ship, right? We expect interruptions. Hardly enough to ruin an op. All done. By your logic: what prevents the original griefer from coming back and planting a new bomb? Are we expected to constantly move? How would you effectively mine then? Macks have enough range with ice harvesters to simply shift outside the radius. We already need to move, and be ready to warp thanks to gankers and rats. That lockbreaker range limit means we won't even need to break cycle, just shift before 10 minutes is up, and lock onto a new berg outside that area for next cycle. I wish this was the worst problem we had to deal with.
Ok...... so you actually expect this to be used by solo griefers (DESPITE it having no penalty to them or their security status)? You don't think this would become a massive minefield thing? |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2021
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:22:00 -
[64] - Quote
Never mind miners. Think about the use for this in incursions. It could wipe whole fleets. Lockbreakers and void bombs going off on logi? And remember...these are DISGUISED. Otherwise no one would ever stumble into them.
OP demonstrates a startling lack of creativity in thinking of ways this could be abused. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
61
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Posted - 2012.07.24 20:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me. |
Krotch Vader
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.07.24 20:29:00 -
[66] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Never mind miners. Think about the use for this in incursions. It could wipe whole fleets. Lockbreakers and void bombs going off on logi? And remember...these are DISGUISED. Otherwise no one would ever stumble into them.
OP demonstrates a startling lack of creativity in thinking of ways this could be abused. I dunno bout that part.
I think it would be pretty quick that noone trusts a wreck inside 10km to them. First thing a camper learns is to avoid poison ivy and stuff like that. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
72
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me.
So Hulkagedon already forced CCP to buff mining barges. But you are ok with a remote detonation bomb that puts you 'only' into hull? |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me. So Hulkagedon already forced CCP to buff mining barges. But you are ok with a remote detonation bomb that puts you 'only' into hull? Hold on, the high sec devices don't do that at all.
Please stop reintroducing aspects of this idea that have been removed, and for good reason.
Neither lockbreaker nor void will deal damage like that.
They ONLY break locks or drain cap. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
61
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:45:00 -
[69] - Quote
FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me. So Hulkagedon already forced CCP to buff mining barges. But you are ok with a remote detonation bomb that puts you 'only' into hull? Just reread the OP, I don't see anything like that listed for damage on the high sec bombs. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
72
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Posted - 2012.07.24 20:47:00 -
[70] - Quote
I keep forgetting he edits his posts. Either way, so many people keep pointing out the potential for griefing. |
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Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
61
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:47:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me. So Hulkagedon already forced CCP to buff mining barges. But you are ok with a remote detonation bomb that puts you 'only' into hull? Just reread the OP, I don't see anything like that listed for damage on the high sec bombs. It was never part of the OP, it was just in one post as a possible limit to damage.
It was later adopted that only the two ECM style bombs would be used in high sec instead. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:53:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mary Annabelle wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:FireT wrote:Mary Annabelle wrote:Jeesh that was a wall of text, had to shrink it.
You expect solo griefers to coordinate on a meaningful level?
We already have perpetual hulkageddon. Nope. I am thinking we are going to be popping these on each other to mess with bots more than anything. I hate those things competing with me. So Hulkagedon already forced CCP to buff mining barges. But you are ok with a remote detonation bomb that puts you 'only' into hull? Just reread the OP, I don't see anything like that listed for damage on the high sec bombs. It was never part of the OP, it was just in one post as a possible limit to damage. It was later adopted that only the two ECM style bombs would be used in high sec instead. Is void considered ECM?
I always... NM, not complaining. Accurate enough.
And yes, as I pointed out earlier, the half hull thing was never in the OP, and I only actually spoke of it in that one post. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2022
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Is void considered ECM?
Neuts are considered part of ECM so far as I know.
As I've already pointed out: neuts and jamming are hostile actions and can result in the destruction of ships, and should evoke a concord response if used on neutral parties in highsec.
Disagree? Let me neut you out in a mission or incursion and we'll see how you feel about it. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Krotch Vader
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
FireT wrote:I keep forgetting he edits his posts. Either way, so many people keep pointing out the potential for griefing. You worry too much about that. I read some of the stuff on hot dropping, this is nothin.
I wanna just watch the bears go crazy on each other. I give ya even odds they start shooting each other over this kinda stuff before long. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:04:00 -
[75] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Is void considered ECM? Neuts are considered part of ECM so far as I know. As I've already pointed out: neuts and jamming are hostile actions and can result in the destruction of ships, and should evoke a concord response if used on neutral parties in highsec. Disagree? Let me neut you out in a mission or incursion and we'll see how you feel about it. That's hardly the same thing at all, and I am fairly certain you know this perfectly well.
A directed action like that has predictable results, and as an effect this has value in support of applied DPS.
Get some drones if you want to do that, or something else you can control.
Like the other fellow said, I would not get within 10 km of a wreck, knowing it could affect me like that. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2022
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Krotch Vader wrote:I think it would be pretty quick that noone trusts a wreck inside 10km to them.
Except it can't be helped inside a deadspace pocket. Also, wrecks in incursion sites aren't uncommon. Noobs looking around or fleets who weren't as prepared as they thought...it doesn't matter. Wrecks are just part of the scenery. And I assure you, if this were a thing, the griefers looking to kill incursion fleets would spend days seeding wrecks into the sites to condition the fleets to ignore them. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2022
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Like the other fellow said, I would not get within 10 km of a wreck, knowing it could affect me like that.
You would because the belts and gates and sites would be littered with wrecks, left by throwaway alts so that you had no choice but learn to ignore them. If you think otherwise, you haven't seen the efforts to which we can go to manipulate carebears into complacency.
If my history with incursion griefing taught me anything, it's how to manipulate people into do things even though they should know better. Social engineering is fun :) The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
425
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 21:17:00 -
[78] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Like the other fellow said, I would not get within 10 km of a wreck, knowing it could affect me like that. You would because the belts and gates and sites would be littered with wrecks, left by throwaway alts so that you had no choice but learn to ignore them. If you think otherwise, you haven't seen the efforts to which we can go to manipulate carebears into complacency. If my history with incursion griefing taught me anything, it's how to manipulate people into do things even though they should know better. Social engineering is fun :) You might be right, people can go to a lot of effort to achieve their goals.
If it takes a lot of effort, however, I am missing how this is a problem.
Even the recently referred to hotdrops takes a group of pilots standing by for the cue to act, which reflects significant group effort. I don't see this being nearly as effective compared to that.
As timed devices, in theory placed before the target pilots can see them being placed, how will the bomber know when to set the timer for? Minimum is ten minutes.
If they use the remote detonator instead, they have full consequences just like they had fired any other kind of weapon.
And a pilot can only have a single bomb active at a time. Noone makes a minefield by themselves. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Krotch Vader
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 14:14:00 -
[79] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:...And a pilot can only have a single bomb active at a time. Noone makes a minefield by themselves. I saw that in your OP too, tho it makes me think this makes your idea limited. How you can actually expect to hit anything outside of dumb luck like that gets this watered down like.
I guess its better to be limited than exploited, CCP can prolly quote you chapter and verse on what happens when you leave that bit out.
but look at the brite side, people love party poppers an fireworks! |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
432
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 13:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
Krotch Vader wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:...And a pilot can only have a single bomb active at a time. Noone makes a minefield by themselves. I saw that in your OP too, tho it makes me think this makes your idea limited. How you can actually expect to hit anything outside of dumb luck like that gets this watered down like. I guess its better to be limited than exploited, CCP can prolly quote you chapter and verse on what happens when you leave that bit out. but look at the brite side, people love party poppers an fireworks! Trying to avoid allowing the idea to create minefields, at least without meaningful effort.
(And since the time versions aren't proximity sensitive, the chances of them actually catching a specific moving ship aren't very high at all) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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