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Tellace
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Posted - 2010.07.01 23:44:00 -
[1]
A couple random thoughts that have come up...
If the Intaki mind transferal equipment is capable of delivering our minds into a completely new cloned body, and yes Sansha made some terribly horrific hybrids, is it not possible to transfer a human mind directly and completely to a databank on a ship?
Wouldn't this negate both the need for pods and jump clones/facilities?
Can this not be done safely, saving quite an extensive amount of resources and while using existing protocols?
Even more bizarrely is it not possible that this could be an explanation to the rampant rogue drone proliferation/rebellion to their Gallentean creators and as I have seen and defeated 'sentient' drones in former Gallentean experimental territory as a possible success of a transferred mind into a completely mechanical/technological body via Intaki transferal technology?
I do recall in my early days a certain scientist using drone assistance to create various weapons and was found to have been hybridized his mind with drones himself.
Again Sansha's so called "Rogue Slave Trader" forces too have tampered with Intaki tech, so I cannot come down to hard on Intaki.
As for Jove pods, if any of these above could be proven true, one major question is to why they were suddenly given to us Caldari, could they not be just a test bed for their so called Jovian 'madness?' -- Since the topic of drones -- computers -- and rumors of massive genetic manipulation in their past history, could they not be now having trouble coming up with simple ideas, and using us to proxy them out?
What if, ironically, through this modification of their bodies, they have simply hit a maximum threshold for human capacity for thought, knowledge retention and regulation of their own bodies to the point of insanity and without another novel breakthrough only two solutions left: Give up something within the mind itself, or proxy it out into some technical hardware giving a true ghost or soul to the machine...
Could Sansha, if he's still around, suggested - dare say capitalized on this, perfected it, and rewarded with wormhole technology?
At any rate, I do not support any of Sansha's forced abductions/conversions or whatever the hell its called, but still their are elements--shards that could potentially be very useful, understood to the letter, and beneficial to all empires and especially to us Caldari.
I, for one, could deal without the eggish-goo day in and day out. Man I am curious of the days of old fighter tech sad to see it reduced to nothing but simulations, flying is fun, free, a test of skill and Caldari Pride!
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 00:02:00 -
[2]
I believe a good friend of mine, Verin Haktain, once came up against a man who had fully transferred his mind into a ship's computer.
Apparently the results were less than satisfactory, but you'd have to ask Verin about that directly. -----
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Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.02 04:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tellace I, for one, could deal without the eggish-goo day in and day out. Man I am curious of the days of old fighter tech sad to see it reduced to nothing but simulations, flying is fun, free, a test of skill and Caldari Pride!
Well most of the navy and pirate ships we encounter are not piloted by capsuleers but regular pilots. So that tech is not totally obsolete or archaic in this age. The pods are what allow us to transfer to new clones if the old ones get blown up. When a normal pilot is shot down, she is dead dead. |
James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:07:00 -
[4]
I did away with my pod some time ago. I find great comfort in having an efficient crew to interact with and that my ship runs just as well. I do not trust the jove enough to so blindly use their technology.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 05:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: James Vayne I did away with my pod some time ago.
Originally by: James Vayne my ship runs just as well.
No you didn't, and no it doesn't. -----
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Mithfindel
Aseyakone
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Posted - 2010.07.02 06:37:00 -
[6]
Sure, with a good command crew you can get almost the same performance as with a pod, but that requires drills, drills and drills... and when something really unexpected happens, it isn't the same performance anyway. Worth to note that those of us who fly something bigger than frigates will need a crew anyway*. And of course, when not using the capsule if someone destroys the lifeboats - assuming you get in a lifeboat in time - you're dead. No brain burner there.
There's still the old school way of taking periodical slow mind scans, but I couldn't care less lying a whole day in an operating room every once in a while to backup my memory. Plus the red tape to activate a mind backup is pretty horrible, unless there's proof - mostly in the form of your recent dead body intact enough to ID - that you're really dead, as CONCORD regulations don't allow being multi.
-----
*) Take the crews vs. no crews to EVE Fiction forum area, or just read the latest chronicle, please.
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James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:14:00 -
[7]
Edited by: James Vayne on 02/07/2010 07:15:25
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Originally by: James Vayne I did away with my pod some time ago.
Originally by: James Vayne my ship runs just as well.
No you didn't, and no it doesn't.
And you've been inside my ship and seen its operation, have you? I might inform you that there are plenty of ships out there crewed by non-capsuleers who do just as well as capsuleers.
My pod is on standby as an escape pod, but that is all. Don't presume to tell me what is and what is not so.
If you believe it is impossible to do without your pod then you are deluded.
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Sun'Tzu Yin
Gallente Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:22:00 -
[8]
You are certainly delusional about the comparative performance of capsuleers versus conventional bridge command. I destroy dozens of conventionally 'piloted' battleships a week...in a t1 cruiser. Now back to your regularly scheduled hallucination.
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Saxton Hale
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: James Vayne I did away with my pod some time ago. I find great comfort in having an efficient crew to interact with and that my ship runs just as well.
I assume you don't learn any skills related to piloting in that case? Manufacturing research only?
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James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Saxton Hale
Originally by: James Vayne I did away with my pod some time ago. I find great comfort in having an efficient crew to interact with and that my ship runs just as well.
I assume you don't learn any skills related to piloting in that case? Manufacturing research only?
Clearly you being a pod isolated from all humanity has addled your own brain. One does not require a pod to learn, my friend.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 07:59:00 -
[11]
Mr Vayne is correct. I too do not utilize the pod system to run my ships. Instead I use a combination of the usual well trained crew, verbal commands and implants coupled with a simple neural band and some hefty processors integrated into my command chair. This lowers the potential performance of my ship system by only 10%, a drawback I find as acceptable price for retaining my humanity. Coincidentally it seems to have made me one of the few starship captains out there who actually pay a thought to the wellfare of their crew when commanding a ship.
The neural imprinting does not have to be done via a pod either - you do not spend your entire day in your pod, do you? Well I hope you don't, because you do not have to. Again, the imprinting process can be successfully done without being chained to the pod. In fact, most of the pod's functionality can be replicated without requiring a hydrostatic environment which is there to protect you from external sensory input and trauma in case of, literally, too much jolting around.
The only issue is that of neural flashing when your pod is about to get cracked open. But a simple adaptation of the "jump clone" technology can deal with that. Your neural pathways can be scanned on the fly. And transmitted. And stored into a ready clone. You do not need some Jovian contraption to fry your brain moments before you actually die, instead you, existentially, have more than one body. I find that thought liberating.
I am surprised more capsuleers haven't had similar modifications done to their systems and operations. Perhaps they like those lost 10% too much.
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Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.02 08:14:00 -
[12]
you poor, sad, deluded people. It's a shame when pilots construct such elaborate fantasies to reject a reality they don't like. - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 09:29:00 -
[13]
Actually what is sad is that so many capsuleers so blindly buy into this whole pod business. You people really are used to have everything done for you, including your thinking it seems. So go ahead, float in that goo bath of yours without asking yourself any of these important questions:
-if the hydrostatic environment is there to protect you from the supposedly superior maneuvering ability (and consequent g-forces) and you still need your unprotected crew to survive in order to maintain your ship systems, what is the point? Furthermore since all our ships and stations are equipped with artificial gravity generators, why bother with hydrostatic, sealed environment at all? You could be comfortably suspended in a stasis field to achieve the same effect. In fact I have one such field for my bed.
-if we widely use the available jump clone technology which allows us to transfer our consciousness to another body on request, what is there to prevent us from actually duplicating our personality within several bodies? Nothing. And if we can do this, as has already been done successfully, why do we need the pod neural flashing device? We don't. If one of our bodies is killed, the spare is brought from the artificially induced coma and our existence is continued. Furthermore the process of personality transfer between jump clones is simply bandwidth-dependant data transfer, there is practically nothing preventing us from continually performing a low-intensity neural scan which can then be used to update our spare bodies in the event of our current body dying. In other words, we are infomorphs, we are essentially reduced, or perhaps elevated, to the state of pure data. And yet you cling to the Jovian fairy tales and outdated technology and methods.
All this technology exists. It is around you. And still you blindly float in that Jovian contraption, most likely an unwitting victim of some inhumane medical experiment.
Because the last, and most important question you should be asking yourself is - why? Why have the Jovians gifted the pod technology to the Caldari, to be propagated throughout the cluster? Out of benevolence? I think not. Especially not in the light of Sansha fleets anchored outside their stations. Do you seriously believe that the Nation, which uses current weapons and ship technology, could possibly have beaten a force which easily thrashed the fleets of the most powerful empire in the history of the cluster?
The answer is pretty obvious - the Nation did not defeat the Jovians - the Nation is working with them. Which makes the Jovians just as much of a threat. And casts suspicion on all their "gifts".
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 09:35:00 -
[14]
Also, to reply to mr. Tellace as to why we shouldn't just become true infomorphs and simply download ourselves into our ships - it has to do with our inherent psychological barriers. We are underneath it all still very much human. Our mind is made to fit into a human body. If we lack such a container, I suspect serious psychological trauma and disorder would ensue, eventually destroying our personality altogether.
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 09:39:00 -
[15]
Fact: There is no known way for a conventional vessel to outperform capsuleer-piloted vessel of the same type and class.
Fact: It is not even possible to fly a capsule-fitted ship without the presence of a capsuleer in a capsule.
Fact: With the exception of fighters and fighter-bombers, no capsuleer-available BPO produces a human-piloted space vessel that is not capsule-fitted.
Fact: Anyone who claims that they can pilot a capsule-fitted ship without a capsule and get the same results is either lying or delusional.
Strongly-Held Opinion: Most people who claim the above are likely both.
All available listed scientific and observational data supports the first four statements, and as far as I can tell from the general calibre of those making the discussed claims, available evidence supports the fifth assertion.
Reality is unique among continuums in that it is not subject to change due to belief, no matter how strongly those beliefs are held. -----
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 10:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Fact: There is no known way for a conventional vessel to outperform capsuleer-piloted vessel of the same type and class.
The performance gain is negligible. Conventional command methods, if a properly trained and semi-independant command structure is used yield only slightly lower performance levels. Seems capsuleers, so used to do pretty much everything with direct commands, have forgotten that a properly trained weapons officer can designate targets on his own, without waiting for a command to do so, or that the chief engineer can activate the shield defense systems or nanite repair pumps without a direct command. A properly trained force of hundreds of human beings even has the potential to outperform a single capsuleer, despite the myth.
Quote: Fact: It is not even possible to fly a capsule-fitted ship without the presence of a capsuleer in a capsule.
Tell that to my engineering crews which yank that thing out of its socket on every ship I purchase, and convert it to a conventional escape pod. After all the pod is designed to survive the explosion of the ship and the socket is usually close to the bridge anyway. A simple egress mechanism is all that's needed.
Quote: Fact: With the exception of fighters and fighter-bombers, no capsuleer-available BPO produces a human-piloted space vessel that is not capsule-fitted.
Our ships are modular. Their structure is designed to be refitted, and often. What do you think happens when you order a nano-fiber internal structure to be fitted? Most of the bulkheads are replaced! You order it by plugging an icon into a user interface slot, but your crew replaces most of your ship's interior. And somehow it is impossible to do a little rearranging of the pod systems? Please.
Quote: Fact: Anyone who claims that they can pilot a capsule-fitted ship without a capsule and get the same results is either lying or delusional.
I did say that I have an overall 10% performance decrease. After all, I do not run drills for my crews all day long. Mea culpa. But the technology has progressed significantly since the pod tech was first introduced, mr. LeHane. Miniaturization, automation, systems integration, crew training - all that is what really counts, not the ability to issue a few dozen (at best) command types instantaneously.
In fact, all available scientific data supports MY claims - which is why I was able to put them into effect. I invite you to specifically prove why any of what I said is untrue. Jump cloning, artificial gravity and inertia stabilizers, infomorph psychology, modular ship systems, all this is technology we are surrounded with and use daily. I am just recombining the existing knowlegde and technology in slightly unorthodox ways. Which apparently is enough for you to think of me as a delusional man.
I suppose if someone asked you to use a knife as a makeshift screwdriver, you would be inclined to call them insane.
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James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.07.02 11:22:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane Fact: There is no known way for a conventional vessel to outperform capsuleer-piloted vessel of the same type and class.
Fact: It is not even possible to fly a capsule-fitted ship without the presence of a capsuleer in a capsule.
Fact: With the exception of fighters and fighter-bombers, no capsuleer-available BPO produces a human-piloted space vessel that is not capsule-fitted.
Fact: Anyone who claims that they can pilot a capsule-fitted ship without a capsule and get the same results is either lying or delusional.
Strongly-Held Opinion: Most people who claim the above are likely both.
All available listed scientific and observational data supports the first four statements, and as far as I can tell from the general calibre of those making the discussed claims, available evidence supports the fifth assertion.
Reality is unique among continuums in that it is not subject to change due to belief, no matter how strongly those beliefs are held.
You seem to have forgotten that space travel was around quite a while before the jove began supplying their unfathomable technology so the Empires could better fuel their wars against each other.
You also underestimate the ingenuity of the Minmatar to alter a ships construction to one's desired needs. Fine shipwrights that they be.
Fact: Being in a pod for too long has addled your brain and separated yourself from reality.
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 12:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa Do you seriously believe that the Nation, which uses current weapons and ship technology, could possibly have beaten a force which easily thrashed the fleets of the most powerful empire in the history of the cluster?
The answer is pretty obvious - the Nation did not defeat the Jovians - the Nation is working with them. Which makes the Jovians just as much of a threat. And casts suspicion on all their "gifts".
I consider it more likely that the Nation was (is) working with some Jovians, not all. Those of Admiral Ouria's faction. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.07.02 13:47:00 -
[19]
The real question is indeed what we would need a body and all that horrible meat bag thingies for if we could just transfer our minds into a computer.
That would be so much more efficient I think.
Not impossible that Sanshas made that huge step forwards. It also would explain why they would think that using a body - as we capsuleers still do - is a mistake and dead end, because the evolution/genetical engineering of the body is pretty limited and near its end as we can see at the Jove. Evolution of computer technology is by far not that fragile and error prone, so it could be assumed superior.
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Dryner Oaklaw
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:27:00 -
[20]
But.... why refusing your pod? you're her and she is you. I can't leave her and she don't want to leave me. The night in the substance i heard her voice calling the jove space. I'm not sure if i'm human anymore, but... a man who could live two thousand deaths, is already human? Trying to keep your Humanitas, is hopeless. One day or another, you'll wake up and see the beauty of space. This is a place with no feeling, only the power of emptiness. I've heard one day a very old story about a man called bud'ha who wanted to leave his desires. I'm like him, i've no desires. Only the true happiness of the bio-electronical liaison with the Machina. blah.... |
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:52:00 -
[21]
Ah, podpilots claiming they aren't podpilots. There has always been a few of these nutties around.
Next up they will claim to have blue skin, pointy ears and only come out at night. I have seen freaks like that for sure, on some Gallente terrestrial planet, I have forgotten where. But, they wore most certainly in no shape to even enter a starship.
The pod is a superb, brilliant piece of engineering, in all aspects. And there are no reason what so ever not to use it. The unique possibility of being revived in case of an unfortunate accident is just a small part of it, but obvious also an essential part. No, it is the possibilities to interact with everything, be everywhere, learn constantly. Those are the true wonders the pod brings to us.
Oh and for storing people on machines? It has been tried and failed. It is properly due to the incompatibility of the item you try to storage and the medium you are trying to store on. Like trying to store milk in a heated oven or, dare I say it, living humans in a crate. These things are bound to go wrong, or, more technically speaking, get corrupted. I say Sansha freaks are a pretty good example of that.
---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 16:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Next up they will claim to have blue skin, pointy ears and only come out at night. I have seen freaks like that for sure, on some Gallente terrestrial planet, I have forgotten where. But, they wore most certainly in no shape to even enter a starship.
Have you been watching those low-budget holoreels again? -----
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Andreus LeHane
Have you been watching those low-budget holoreels again?
I know I shouldn't, but I fall into the trap all the time. Damn you Gallente and your entertainment industry.
---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 17:43:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ontaku Oroa on 02/07/2010 17:44:04
Originally by: Jowen Datloran The pod is a superb, brilliant piece of engineering, in all aspects. And there are no reason what so ever not to use it. The unique possibility of being revived in case of an unfortunate accident is just a small part of it, but obvious also an essential part. No, it is the possibilities to interact with everything, be everywhere, learn constantly. Those are the true wonders the pod brings to us.
No, the pod is likely a test tube designed for infatuated lab rats. The pod is a ball and chain, but even worse than the physical kind, since this one chains your very mind. You become so addicted to it, you cannot imagine your existence without it. You are afraid to leave it because then you are forced to exist as a mere mortal, vulnerable and weak.
And yet you are vulnerable because you are used to its protection - you are so used to the idea of immortality it provides you have forgotten what it means to truly live. Not only that, you have become so complacent with the solutions it offers, you fail to even consider seeking your own. You feel weak because without the pod you are forced to rely only on yourself, and you hate that.
The pod is wonderful? I think not. The pod is a prison, and one which I delight in smashing. The Jovians are not gods, and we do not need their "gifts". I prefer to fly free, with my crew, as their captain, not some ghost in the machine, soulless and detached from the fates I lead them to.
And it is possible to do so. We have the means and the technology to do so. We only need the reason, and that reason is freedom. What more does one need?
Or you can be a slave to efficiency. Your choice.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.02 18:35:00 -
[25]
Ah, primitive Matari spiritualism. Always ready to tell you the answer of life.
Well, I will see you in the afterlife then. Or maybe not, considering my options.
---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
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Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.07.02 19:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran I know I shouldn't, but I fall into the trap all the time. Damn you Gallente and your entertainment industry.
I will give you that at least you've thus far managed to dodge the... conventions. -----
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 19:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran Ah, primitive Matari spiritualism. Always ready to tell you the answer of life.
Well, I will see you in the afterlife then. Or maybe not, considering my options.
I would be willing to bet your options are more limited than mine. For example, if your pod systems fail or if you suffer a fatal accident outside of your pod, you are lost or, at best, condemned to a lengthy amnesia.
I do not have such problems. So much for primitive "spiritualism".
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Borza Slavak I consider it more likely that the Nation was (is) working with some Jovians, not all. Those of Admiral Ouria's faction.
Perhaps. I however, given the inconsistencies with the pod design, still consider it a likely mass experiment.
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Mealtrom
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Posted - 2010.07.02 21:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ontaku Oroa I prefer to fly free, with my crew, as their captain, not some ghost in the machine, soulless and detached from the fates I lead them to.
Pod fever, seen it a thousand times. Tragic.
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Ontaku Oroa
Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.02 22:00:00 -
[30]
*sigh* Unfortunately the ability to command the most sophisticated pieces of technology mankind has at its disposal does not seem to require IQ higher than than of a monkey pushing shiny buttons. Tragic.
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