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Komi Toran
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Posted - 2010.07.03 00:00:00 -
[31]
It's not that you do not have a choice with learning skills, it's that the game forces you to choose between a giant douche, and a **** sandwich.
Whichever you choose, Kenny still dies.
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Miika Finsa
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Posted - 2010.07.03 05:16:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Miika Finsa on 03/07/2010 05:19:27 a new character can get all of the learning skills to 4/3 within a week training at double speed.
oh noes.. the horror
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Vargas Blackburn
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Posted - 2010.07.03 11:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Miika Finsa Edited by: Miika Finsa on 03/07/2010 05:19:27 a new character can get all of the learning skills to 4/3 within a week training at double speed.
oh noes.. the horror
Oh yes, training skills that don't add to the enjoyment of the game are a *great* advertisement for the game and not a deterrent for a new player in the least.
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Trick Novalight
Caldari Instapop Industries Amici Noctis
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Posted - 2010.07.03 13:04:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 02/07/2010 18:38:35 Learnings is a must, if you don't train them, you'll waste time and training learnings is a time waste as well, so it's a doom-loop.
I personally left EVE 4 times in the beginning already, just because of the learnings. It ****ed me off to login, add more to my queue, log off and do this for few months.
I pulled it off and maxed my learnings because there's atm no better MMORPG than EVE. Other newbies aren't like me or many others with paying monthly and here you get practically NOTHING in the first 2 months of your subscription.
How many people are idiots like us and pay money for nothing?
With out training learning skills, you can add an extra 100 days to any high end skill plan. this doesn't seem optional if you actually...you know...want to PLAY the game.
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.07.03 13:14:00 -
[35]
Learning skills are a time investment, not a time sink imo.
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Party Scout
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Posted - 2010.07.03 14:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mr LaForge Learning skills are a time investment, not a time sink imo.
They are a timesink to reduce another timesink... It's a compounded time sink, which makes it even worse. They add nothing to the game, just forcing you to chose between a slow start of the game, or a slow advancement of the game... Either choice is not fun. Those are not choices a game should force on players.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.04 00:51:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 04/07/2010 00:55:13
You know... there are more options than 1. Train all Learning Skills at the start before doing anything else and 2. Never train Learning Skills at all
Also I wrote instant gratification. If a game is not gratifying, I hope everybody is so smart not to play it. But again, not instantly gratifying doesn't equal not gratifying at all.
Last but not least, skill training in Eve is only a time sink, if all you want to do in the game is training skills. I really hope, though, that you actually want to play and have fun. Training itself doesn't cost you time, because it happens passively. Again, the exception is watching the SP counter tick. Again, I sincerely hope nobody does that.
And no, you don't need 15mio SP to PvP. You're also not supposed to fly the biggest ships within a week or even month. Playing Eve takes time and patience. But on the other hand the game doesn't 'start' at level 80 or whatever. Imho it's good that way.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Yolo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.04 22:22:00 -
[38]
// Signed.
CCP Already introduced the solution for this problem. The ability to give us Skillpoints to use as we please.
Now finaly kill the Learning Skills Once and for all.
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Cedims
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Posted - 2010.07.07 05:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Yolo // Signed.
CCP Already introduced the solution for this problem. The ability to give us Skillpoints to use as we please.
Now finaly kill the Learning Skills Once and for all.
Well said.
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Ydyp Ieva
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.07.07 06:47:00 -
[40]
Learning skills are fully optional, it is your choice to spend 1 month on them or not. If you spend the time to invest in them it pays of later. It just like the market where you stuff that is low and then have to wait to get it a bit higher and sell it again. So let's get rid of the market to.
And then we got the standing with npc corporations, get rid of it to as it takes time to increase them to unlock level 4/5 missions for iskmaking. Is also a waste of time doing level 1 and 2 missions. So get rid of those to.
Oh wait if I continue we don't have anything left in eve any more to do. So suck it up and go cry somewhere else if you please.
If they change something to learning skills I would say: bring back the old requirements for the advanced learning skills. Meaning you need level 5 for the basic learning skill instead of the now level 4 (which has already brought the time down tremendously). ---------------------------------- None of yet! |
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.07.07 06:48:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Yolo // Signed.
CCP Already introduced the solution for this problem. The ability to give us Skillpoints to use as we please.
Now finaly kill the Learning Skills Once and for all.
No they gave you 100,000 sp. good for 2 days. Did not even factor in if toon is remapped higher. Free points for me since had skill in qeue....but the flat rate sp sucked tbh (one toon spec'd int/mem after learning trained...he gets more than a 100,000 in 2 days).
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Andreya
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.08 10:33:00 -
[42]
the pros and cons of learning skills. so far ive seen only one valid 'pro' to having learning skills in game
it weeds out the instant gratification kids. yes, maybe it does, but that means less impatient nubbins for me to kill.
so no, ill add that to the 'cons' list.
seriously, there is nothing positive about having learning skills. they do not offer anything good to the eve universe. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.07.08 11:28:00 -
[43]
Skillpoints are needed to prevent 1 day olds from climbing into a T3 and going round pwning all in sight.
Keep skills. It can get a bit frustrating waiting for the longer ones, but the outcome is ultimately worth it (because once it's trained, it's trained).
if you don't like it, go back to The Sims.
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Bilko Bobski
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Posted - 2010.07.08 11:49:00 -
[44]
Skillpoints themselves are definitely a great idea and something to be kept; as for the learning skills - I'd have to agree, they serve no real purpose in the game and simply make an already difficult game even harder to get into.
My solution would be to remove learning skills, and add a new learning module/rig for ships - requiring a certain skill to use effectively. This module would be akin to having an on-board library, or more advanced skill-injection system; meaning you'd be able to learn certain skills faster while in your ship (and in game terms could function using learning-scripts, bought from the market). The advantages of such a system would be:
1)More accessible learning system for new players to get into 2)More of a focus of being in your ship instead of being in a station/offline to learn 3)Risk vs Reward of training a skill faster, by sacrificing a combat slot 4)Risk vs Reward of having to keep your ship outside of a station for more of the day 5)Benefit of linking learning into the economy
Just an idea, but I feel it would help to solve the issue of "if we got rid of learning skill (which we want to) then what will we replace it with?".
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.07.08 13:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Andreya
seriously, there is nothing positive about having learning skills. they do not offer anything good to the eve universe.
then don't train them. Not seeing the issue. If you all hate and despise them that much leave that part of the market section collasped and don't buy. Eve has lots of "useless" skills, pick and choose outside of them. All laser and amarr ships skills are useless to my combat toon since no desire to fly their ships or shoot lasers. Have an indy with close to 6 mil of skills useless to a combat only type player. have another alt real good at charons...ship most of eve has no need or desire to own or fly. One mans useless skill is another mans bread and butter.
Some people want these skills....some don't. sandbox game, make your choice and then carry on with the plan of the day.
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StinkRay
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:04:00 -
[46]
Edited by: StinkRay on 08/07/2010 15:03:56 Remove them all and fire the idiot that designed them!
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SemiCharmed
Clans of the Sanctums
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:51:00 -
[47]
I don't know what everyone's problem is with the learning skills, i've been playing for 4+ years and i still haven't finished training my learning skills....
Not to mention i didnt start training the learning skills about 6-7 month into the game, and a year after that i started getting the tier 2 ones going, didn't bother me in the slightest.
If you want to go from level 1 to 100 in 2 weeks pi** of and go play world of warcraft, you dont lose anything in that game except your dignity, soul, money, life and respect. - ok maybe you do lose everything.. meh. --------------------------------------------
Remember Kids, Only YOU Can Prevent Fourm fires. |
Vincardi
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.08 17:36:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Vincardi on 08/07/2010 17:38:09 No. Keep them...
As one pilot said before, it's an option. - you don't have to study it. It's not mandated and it's totally free choice to use it. No one is forcing you to purchase the book.
If you don't like the skill then don't study it. Why try to fix something that is not broken?
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Reais
Minmatar Lynx Frontier Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.12 02:15:00 -
[49]
/Signed with Caveat
I have all learning skills at 5 (ALL learning skills) (1) Refund everyone the amount of SP they have in learning (5.3 Mill SP for me) (2) Give everyone a bonus of +10 to all attributes + multiply their end attributes by 1.1 (the skill "learning" bonus) (otherwise, find some other way to compensate for the loss of the multiplier).
Old guys like me win, because I get 5 mill sp back to spend Mid-guys get 3-4 mill sp, and are no longer disadvantaged to old guys like me New guys win because they dont have to spend a month training skills that are basically mandatory for all characters - because they're cripled in learning time in the future otherwise.
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Saerin Dippidy
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Posted - 2010.07.12 04:23:00 -
[50]
Not surprising that people who were wise enough to invest time in learning skills are generally opposed to doing away with them. I did myself, but I see a lot of merit in nerfing their importance.
Imho, their primary benefit is increased complexity in developing your online persona. For me, figuring out how to make my character the most capable in the shortest amount of time was fun. I spent a good amount of time reading and planning skills in Evemon before I ever launched a missile. I don't expect that most casual gamers would be inclined to this kind of pleasure, so the argument against learning skills resonates.
I also get that removing them "dumbs down" character development and thus removes a satisfactory element for a large part of Eve's traditional (and necessarily biased) player base. I like advantages as much as the next person. I still get a kick out of meeting older characters with fewer skill points or poorly thought out skill maps.
I'd posit, however, that as Eve continues to ramp up in "endgame" complexity, the learning curve can be flattened early on without sacrificing too much of what makes Eve such a thinking (wo)man's game. When game mechanics were more limited, the additional depth of experience that learning skills provided were probably a net positive when balancing barriers to entry and the need to offer something different in the MMO market. Now, with so much to wrap your head around in later stages of character development and 0.0 life (not to mention the ever increasing and bewildering variety of items to learn about and leverage while you are still new), the importance of learning skills as an "atmospheric" mechanic is diminished. In other words, nowadays there are plenty of other ways to exert your intellectual superiority.
I'd personally love to see more casual gamers in Eve. Might even get some of my friends in, which would be cool. Ultimately, more new players in Eve = economic joy for established players and corps. Keep your minds open.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:55:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Saerin Dippidy In other words, nowadays there are plenty of other ways to exert your intellectual superiority.
A great reply all in all. thank you, I enjoyed reading it. However, I'm not sure if I agree with that quoted statement. Nowadays, a lot of the core game revolves around blob warfare and fotm fleets. PvE is easy, Trading is easy (game-mechanical-wise), researching is easy, P.I. is ... well ... tedious at best. The game received a lot of width recently, but not necessarily depth.
This means, keeping in mind that casual gamers are the ones most likely to jump ship at the next oportunity, that many players would reach their 'endgame content' or goal(s) faster and leave Eve sooner. It has been proven time and again by 'free' games in the most recent past, that 'time invested' is a very strong incentive to keep playing and/or keep or start paying. On the other hand those games try to attract players and keep them in line with early achievements and rewards. But it's not the same. I agree the start should be fun and rewarding so that more new players keep playing. I don't think the time to reach goals in any profession in Eve should be shortened.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Rahnim
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Posted - 2010.07.13 06:54:00 -
[52]
I heard that CCP wants to remove the learning skills themselves, so all you haters out there, who don't want them removed... GTFO :P
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Rahnim I heard that CCP wants to remove the learning skills themselves, so all you haters out there, who don't want them removed... GTFO :P
also heard they have been wanting to get rid of lag too...Might mean more learning in the future if "progress" since apocrypha any indicator. Down to 200 in system crashes in tyrannis...dominion was at least 400 playable. Prior releases 800-1000 tolerable from what I hear. Better chance of 22 learning skills than 0 lol...
Ohh and they have been fixing af's several patches too. Even got them into sisi testing for pre dominion....still ain't got that mythical bonus (was supposed to be AB in dominion to complement the heavy tackler role they are supposed to have...never get past testing) to make them more accepted. Would not hold your breath.
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Extraterra
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:13:00 -
[54]
Jeahhhhh remove the skills for all in Eve !!!!
And change the neutral remap Counter to 6 Month or 3.
I think this is the Best for all.
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Baeresh
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Posted - 2010.08.03 12:25:00 -
[55]
As a new player I don't mind them . . here is what I did.
I planned out what I wanted to do first using Evemon. . which I found after a day in game. The first plan was to get some decent skills for a frigate and destroyer. This plan "suggested" a few learning skills first. . which I did. then I got to the point I wanted in game. After this I decided I wanted cruisers etc. . again Evemon suggested some learning skills that would help cut the time down. Now I am working on a Raven.
I am sure if I had trained all of those learning skills first it would have saved me a day or two of training - but I enjoyed the game as I went and did the training and learning skills in increments.
There can be an in-between and maybe once I am in game a year I will freak out and wish I had them. Actually while doing the sisters if Eve missions I planned out at one year plan and did those learning skills before wanting to get into the Raven so all is good.
I am a fairly casual player though so for me it works out very well. I suppose if I wanted to play 24/7 I would hate the slow skill gain.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.03 20:46:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 03/08/2010 20:49:58 I am 1.5 years old now I've long since trained the learning skills to 5/4. They should be removed, they add absolutely nothing to the game and they discourage new players. This is most certainly not about "zomg go play wow". Depending on the individuals mindset learning skills will be a real turn off. Anyone who fires up evemon will see that training learning skills first is clearly what you want to do if you intend on playing eve very long at all.
Some people are driven by a desire to be optimal, I know I am. Heres what I remember of my "new player experience". I started a character, played for 5 days, did some missions, created a 6 month plan in evemon and found out I had completely jacked up my attributes on character creation. Made a new character (this one) and then basically didn't even play for the next month while learning skills were cooking.
Now sure, you can say that "oh hey you don't HAVE to train those skills first, just mix them in with other fun skills and don't worry about it much". And of course thats exactly what I tell new players our corp picks up. You know what? most of them don't take the advice, some make it through, many just quit out of frustration. I'm not going to claim that they all quit for that reason alone, the game isn't for everyone. However you also cannot reasonably claim that those not able to tolerate learning skills would probably just quit anyway.
With most all other skills your getting something you can actively do something with, ability to fly a new ship, use missiles/guns, mine, place more orders, etc. However having a skill system that specifically targets new players and basically tells them "don't play eve for a month" is just stupid stupid idiotic game design that *nobody* not players, not ccp, benefits from.
Refund the sp, ditch the learning skills, possibly add more to the implant system. CCP realized that the old queue-less skill system and inability to reassign attributes was a stupid way of handling it, and they changed it, and the game is vastly better for it, its time to address the learning skills.
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.03 22:45:00 -
[57]
Who forces someone to skill them? I skilled them everytime i could afford to skill it and where it would make sense, it took a long time till i had the first on 5 and trained the advanced. Now CCP removed the L5 lvl cap on the advanced which make it quite easy to get a good level pretty fast. Also if you concentrate on the attribute skill that harmonizes with your skill helps alot.
Like everything in eve you need to think before you do something. Every player tells every newb "Skill the learnings first" ... thats plain wrong.
But well, i wouldnt care if they get removed as long as there is compensation for the wasted skilltime and lost attributes.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.08.04 00:48:00 -
[58]
You know.. there's not even one player I could name who really had a problem with learning skills. I honestly think most new players don't mind them at all. Well, until some powergaming min-maxing idiot comes along and makes it a problem, that is.
From what I can tell, old(er) players are the ones who mostly complain about such 'issues'. Probably because someone is impatient and wants to train up one or more alts as fast as possible? I don't know. But fact is, learning skills are not a problem, some people make them a problem.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
xXx Vice
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.04 01:19:00 -
[59]
If you don't want to train the learning skills if you think its boring then don't train them. And take forever to train all your other skills. Don't mess with a system that works and works well. Yeah it was boring but I trained all my learning skills to level V and now I'm done with it. No more boring learning skills. So stop complaining.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.08.04 03:25:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Turdilious No. Keep learning skills.
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