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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.04 10:30:00 -
[1]
I have gathered together as many of the good PI suggestions as I could find into a single omnibus proposal, which you can read here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Interaction_Omnibus_Proposal_(CSM)
I would greatly appreciate the assistance of the community in the final editing stages of this proposal; please place your feedback in this thread.
Thanks in advance, Trebor
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.07.04 11:00:00 -
[2]
Many great ideas ,
Allthough i am afraid that making rescanning extractors to easy will make PI market crash.
Remember we have no way to eliminate competition ( yet ).
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.04 12:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Allthough i am afraid that making rescanning extractors to easy will make PI market crash.
Can you explain your concern in more detail (in other words, what is the chain of consequences, and how would you tweak things in order to mitigate them)?
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.07.04 13:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Allthough i am afraid that making rescanning extractors to easy will make PI market crash.
Can you explain your concern in more detail (in other words, what is the chain of consequences, and how would you tweak things in order to mitigate them)?
I would wait with this particular change until we can conquer planets/kill other people infrastructure.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.04 14:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Allthough i am afraid that making rescanning extractors to easy will make PI market crash.
Can you explain your concern in more detail (in other words, what is the chain of consequences, and how would you tweak things in order to mitigate them)?
Many people - myself included - are avoiding PI because the level of clicking involved is too high. As the interface gets less godawful, people who are avoiding it might start participating in it, thereby increasing the supply and lowering prices. As someone who fuels several towers, I like this thought, but it's an entirely believable consequence. Same reason why I think that inventors might not be as happy as they'd like to think they will be if CCP ever allows batched installations of science jobs.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.04 15:12:00 -
[6]
But by that logic, CCP should actively try and make PI as mind-numbing as possible, so that it has fewer players, therefore less competition for producers, which means higher prices, until the point where the profit is so high that even Herschel Yamamoto will throw himself into the Hell of Ten Thousand Clicks.
If someone can make a plausible argument that a particular feature request has unintended consequences, great -- that's the kind of iteration I want to see, and that I want to encourage CCP to do with CSM (and through CSM, with informed players). But "Gee, this might cause prices to change" won't cut it.
You of all people, Herschel, should be in favor of changes that favor thinkers over clickers.
Or did you perhaps forget your <sarcasm> tags?
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.07.04 15:41:00 -
[7]
To be honest, PI is completely unsalvageable.
CCP designed a low level micromanagement design with no higher level strategy at all. It's a carbon copy of pos reactions.
As such, no matter how much you refine the ui, the underlining mechanics prevent the feature from being meaningful in any way.
A better system would work by taking the current one and replacing the micromanagement with a macro view of the planet, managing colonies from a high level strategic view with optional micromanaging. If I could just tell my colonies to extract in a general area, and produce whatever and optionally directly interfere with that process, the system would be much better.
The current system lacks any opportunities for high level gameplay, interaction, competition or conflict. It's a purely mechanical system.
Basically, any minigame that i lose to simple recorded mouse movements is garbage. PI is such a system.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:17:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 04/07/2010 16:20:25
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow But by that logic, CCP should actively try and make PI as mind-numbing as possible, so that it has fewer players, therefore less competition for producers, which means higher prices, until the point where the profit is so high that even Herschel Yamamoto will throw himself into the Hell of Ten Thousand Clicks.
If someone can make a plausible argument that a particular feature request has unintended consequences, great -- that's the kind of iteration I want to see, and that I want to encourage CCP to do with CSM (and through CSM, with informed players). But "Gee, this might cause prices to change" won't cut it.
You of all people, Herschel, should be in favor of changes that favor thinkers over clickers.
Or did you perhaps forget your <sarcasm> tags?
Oh, don't get me wrong, I support making it easier. Carpal tunnel is a medical condition, not a game balance tool. I'm just saying, that when you remove the pain from painful-but-profitable game activities, you usually remove a good pile of the profit too. It's not enough to make me stop supporting it(especially for a game mechanic I don't even partake in), but I can see why it'd be a concern for some.
Originally by: Batolemaeus To be honest, PI is completely unsalvageable.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this guy. PI is based on Farmville, when it should have been based on SimCity or Civilization. I'm not actually sure how it can be made into a good system.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.07.04 16:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto ...
Yep same here, I'm really curious how ccp is going to build all that 'conflict' and 'combat' for dust into PI as it is now.
~o~
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.07.04 17:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 04/07/2010 16:42:07 To be honest, PI is completely unsalvageable.
CCP designed a low level micromanagement design with no higher level strategy at all. It's a carbon copy of pos reactions.
As such, no matter how much you refine the ui, the underlining mechanics prevent the feature from being meaningful in any way.
A better system would work by taking the current one and replacing the micromanagement with a macro view of the planet, managing colonies from a high level strategic view with optional micromanaging. If I could just tell my colonies to extract in a general area, and produce whatever and optionally directly interfere with that process, the system would be much better. A simple area of influence could represent the area in which you can build, growing by planting special pins (similar to the settlers/anno). When two borders touch, there is a conflict zone (tie-in to dust). Border influence should be influenced by shipping/producing military related hardware, which neatly lays ground work for dust while opening room for territorial disputes over local resources.
The current system lacks any opportunities for high level gameplay, interaction, competition or conflict. It's a purely mechanical system.
Basically, any minigame that i lose to simple recorded mouse movements is garbage. PI is such a "game".
This. The only fun part of PI is the first part setting up everything then it just stops. Making people click a bunch of **** for no reason is not game play, it's just pointless make work. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.07.04 20:43:00 -
[11]
Actually, thinking about it some more, PI devs should probably take a look at The Settlers 2 for a game that features a map of localized resources, area of influence and complex micromanagement combined with high level strategy with conflict added in.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 04/07/2010 22:00:17 Edited by: Di Mulle on 04/07/2010 21:59:42 Edited by: Di Mulle on 04/07/2010 21:56:12
Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 04/07/2010 16:42:07 To be honest, PI is completely unsalvageable.
CCP designed a low level micromanagement design with no higher level strategy at all. It's a carbon copy of pos reactions.
As such, no matter how much you refine the ui, the underlining mechanics prevent the feature from being meaningful in any way.
A better system would work by taking the current one and replacing the micromanagement with a macro view of the planet, managing colonies from a high level strategic view with optional micromanaging. If I could just tell my colonies to extract in a general area, and produce whatever and optionally directly interfere with that process, the system would be much better. A simple area of influence could represent the area in which you can build, growing by planting special pins (similar to the settlers/anno). When two borders touch, there is a conflict zone (tie-in to dust). Border influence should be influenced by shipping/producing military related hardware, which neatly lays ground work for dust while opening room for territorial disputes over local resources.
The current system lacks any opportunities for high level gameplay, interaction, competition or conflict. It's a purely mechanical system.
Basically, any minigame that i lose to simple recorded mouse movements is garbage. PI is such a "game".
Completely agree.
The very basic level of Pi is designed in the way which inevitably puts us into a "bottleneck" - anything that is left to improve is a way to clickity click more comfortably.
It is not even a "minigame". A game element is present outside of PI - watch markets, decide what to produce, plan your hauling, etc. PI itself is not a game at all - just apply some planetary layout, which are already designed, and then just click click click for many years to come.
Sorry to sound so pessimistic... Current PI implementation can have lots of improvements ofc, and proposed ones are well thought out, but it is just like doing a make-up for a corpse. It will look much better, but still 100% dead.
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.04 21:58:00 -
[13]
Trebor, I haven't touched PI at all because I find the whole concept more like my RL job than a game, with none of the benefits like RL money. That said, you've obviously put a lot of hard, professional work into your proposal, and I'll support you even if only for that. Also, I voted for you and I like to see my tax ISKies being put to good use
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Janice Polito
Tech 3 Hotsauce Limited
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Posted - 2010.07.04 22:00:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Janice Polito on 04/07/2010 22:00:29 Processors should be given a setting that allows them to consume more than 3000 units every 30 minutes. This toggle could be found under the "Stats" heading and have 3 levels -
Level 1 - As it functions now. Level 2 - Double the processing (6000 units processed into 40 units every 30 minutes), at a cost of four times the processor's normal CPU. Level 3 - Doubled again (12000 units processed into 80 units every 30 minutes), at a cost of four times the processor's CPU again.
What this does is allows planets to use all that extra CPU they have, and prevents planets focused on extraction from having to devote half their powergrid to processing. Some of my setups in highsec perma-run 5-6 processors with only 7 extractors, I assume it's far worse in nullsec.
This also helps alleviate the supply crunch going on in P2 and P3 products, and makes P4 production less of a logistical nightmare. Even more so if the toggle is also given to Advanced processors.
Also, one suggestion that's been brought up that I didn't see on your list:
Make links cost no powergrid, only CPU: encourages more spread-out colonies, stops punishing PI setups that don't keep links as few and as short as possible. |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.04 23:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Janice Polito Make links cost no powergrid, only CPU: encourages more spread-out colonies, stops punishing PI setups that don't keep links as few and as short as possible.
Not sure I agree with this one. You want to impose costs to make people think a bit more about colony design. But if you get a F&I thread going on this and there is significant support, I will add it.
As for the processor tweak, I'm more dubious about that one just because of the extra programming it's going to take -- it might displace fixing 2-3 other things that would be higher priority.
I understand that some people have, shall we say, strong feelings about the PI design. But realistically it is not going to get a from-scratch redesign, so the issue is how to iterate it into something that more EVE players will like and use.
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Sebastian Baseesh
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Posted - 2010.07.04 23:50:00 -
[16]
The point is: all the whine about "how much time it takes to restart the processors" is simply not true. I just checked my daily restart routine and watched the time used: 80 seconds for one colony with 12 extractors. This is hardly much, considering that it has to be done only once a day if in 23h mode. So making it even easier is basically giving out ISK for free. If you can't even be bothered to invest 10 minutes a day, why should you get any money at all from it?
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.07.05 05:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh The point is: all the whine about "how much time it takes to restart the processors" is simply not true. I just checked my daily restart routine and watched the time used: 80 seconds for one colony with 12 extractors. This is hardly much, considering that it has to be done only once a day if in 23h mode. So making it even easier is basically giving out ISK for free. If you can't even be bothered to invest 10 minutes a day, why should you get any money at all from it?
The point is this is a game, and PI is a mini game, it should be fun and engaging. Even at the slightest level something to make it interesting would be better then now. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.05 09:46:00 -
[18]
OK, I did my ranting, now let's do this refreshing of a corpse.
Just would like to clarify:
"Windows and panes
* Move the PI interface into standard EVE windows. "
Does it only mean making pin info window with the same functionality as others (resizing, color schemes) - which would be good, but not crucial. Or it means also moving the main interface (the one with "submit" button) into a window. Current fixed placement is extremely annoying and inconsistent with other UI. Of course, this was noticed at a test phase and proposed, and of course nothing happened.
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Sebastian Baseesh
Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 10:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sebastian Baseesh on 05/07/2010 10:15:00 Edited by: Sebastian Baseesh on 05/07/2010 10:14:27
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh The point is: all the whine about "how much time it takes to restart the processors" is simply not true. I just checked my daily restart routine and watched the time used: 80 seconds for one colony with 12 extractors. This is hardly much, considering that it has to be done only once a day if in 23h mode. So making it even easier is basically giving out ISK for free. If you can't even be bothered to invest 10 minutes a day, why should you get any money at all from it?
The point is this is a game, and PI is a mini game, it should be fun and engaging. Even at the slightest level something to make it interesting would be better then now.
Completely true. I just want to discourage the "one button to restart them all". Everything in EvE should have an opportunity cost. If the need to invest time diminishes the opportunity cost goes down. PI mostly makes my 0.0 Logistics a bit easier. It is not the highlight of my day. I wouldn't call it "not fun" because it saves me tedious trips to empire to fuel a POS.
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.07.05 10:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh
PI mostly makes my 0.0 Logistics a bit easier. It is not the highlight of my day. I wouldn't call it "not fun" because it saves me tedious trips to empire to fuel a POS.
You deconstructed PI in just three sentences. Not bad.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.07.05 11:27:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 05/07/2010 11:29:22
Originally by: Di Mulle Does it only mean making pin info window with the same functionality as others (resizing, color schemes) - which would be good, but not crucial. Or it means also moving the main interface (the one with "submit" button) into a window. Current fixed placement is extremely annoying and inconsistent with other UI. Of course, this was noticed at a test phase and proposed, and of course nothing happened.
The latter. Everything but the actual planet backdrop should be in eve-style windows, so they can be moved to suit the tastes of the player. I have edited the proposal to make this more clear.
And TBH, it would be nice to have the ship control interface visible when in space and in planetary mode. Any reasons why that shouldn't be added?
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh Completely true. I just want to discourage the "one button to restart them all". Everything in EvE should have an opportunity cost. If the need to invest time diminishes the opportunity cost goes down. PI mostly makes my 0.0 Logistics a bit easier. It is not the highlight of my day. I wouldn't call it "not fun" because it saves me tedious trips to empire to fuel a POS.
I totally agree with the concept of opportunity cost, I just don't think the cost should be mindless clicking. Just to throw out an idea as an example, PI might be tweaked so that resource degrade over time, so just clicking to restart all the processors has diminishing returns. If however, you were able to move pins, then if you wanted to take the extra time to resurvey, you could optimize your returns. Time vs. Profit, and at least a bit of thinking involved -- is the cost of moving the pins worth the additional income, and how will my nearby competitors react?
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Sebastian Baseesh
Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.05 12:29:00 -
[22]
I don't have competition in 0.0 so far. :) I do agree that clicking isn't the best way to go. On the other hand: we both don't expect PI to get a radical change in the near future. As long as PI doesn't need much interaction after setting it up (which is kinda fun...) there needs to be at least some effort involved timewise. I don't think moving pins would change the way I'd do my PI unless I lose all my resources otherwise. I already overproduce raw materials and stockpile them even without actively trying to do so. I could not bother for 2 days until I'd start to run out. I do not know how that works out in highsec though where resources are more scarce. The "best" thing of course would be to redesign PI a bit to involve more "interaction" in the whole planetary thing as others already pointed out. Simply removing one source of funlessness without replacing the time-investment cannot be.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate Underworld Excavators
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Posted - 2010.07.05 12:35:00 -
[23]
great job in collecting alot of forum suggestions as well as putting in alot of thought. I support.
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Erik Legant
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Posted - 2010.07.05 14:57:00 -
[24]
Supported |
Seamus Donohue
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Posted - 2010.07.05 19:08:00 -
[25]
I will support anything that makes the Planetary Interaction Mass Clicky go away. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |
Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.07.05 22:04:00 -
[26]
Duh, I forgot that thumb-up thing.
Supported ofc.
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Soapy5
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.07.06 01:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh Edited by: Sebastian Baseesh on 05/07/2010 10:15:00 Edited by: Sebastian Baseesh on 05/07/2010 10:14:27
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Sebastian Baseesh The point is: all the whine about "how much time it takes to restart the processors" is simply not true. I just checked my daily restart routine and watched the time used: 80 seconds for one colony with 12 extractors. This is hardly much, considering that it has to be done only once a day if in 23h mode. So making it even easier is basically giving out ISK for free. If you can't even be bothered to invest 10 minutes a day, why should you get any money at all from it?
The point is this is a game, and PI is a mini game, it should be fun and engaging. Even at the slightest level something to make it interesting would be better then now.
Completely true. I just want to discourage the "one button to restart them all". Everything in EvE should have an opportunity cost. If the need to invest time diminishes the opportunity cost goes down. PI mostly makes my 0.0 Logistics a bit easier. It is not the highlight of my day. I wouldn't call it "not fun" because it saves me tedious trips to empire to fuel a POS.
*Warning: Shameless self-promotion imminent*
I agree that there has to be some sort of reward for dedicated Pibears, but the current system only serves to reward poopsockers, not critical thinkers. What PI needs is something that requires brainsweat; like someone above said, eve players prefer to think for an hour and click for a minute vs thinking for a min and clicking for an hour. Personally I think rethinking how the extractor mechanic works would make PI more fun. One idea that i threw out might alleviate some of those issues (namely the rewarding poopsockers system)
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Clovermite
Kamikaze Fleet Command Kamikaze Project
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Posted - 2010.07.06 02:34:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Clovermite on 06/07/2010 02:34:42 Excellent list.
One minor thing to add though: Make Planet Textures Viewable Again
I know it's minor, but it can be important - I can't view planets with their natural textures after getting remote sensing. Even when I'm in normal mode, I just see black or white blobs.
Nothing game breaking, but there have been contests that award PLEX for screenshots, and I don't want to miss out on a 300 mil isk prize simply because I trained a particular skill.
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Sky Falcorr
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Posted - 2010.07.06 15:13:00 -
[29]
would be nice to add a "allow queing of the next 30min\5hrs\23hrs\4days mode in extractor , when it is already in the last cycle (the one the current mode ends after)" to the list. would allow less downtime , less chances to miss the time.
if possible also add the option to feed resource A equally to a group of processors , or to all the processors that use this resource. like when we gather 3000 and have 3 processors using it - each would get 1000. would be helpfull in more complexed less clear-numbered situations.
anyway is a very good list , would be happy to see at least something implemented.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.07.06 16:04:00 -
[30]
Less clicks. The amount of isk made in PI is not worth all the clicking.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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