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Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 10:51:00 -
[1]
Ok picture the scene - the pirate capsuleers is in his ship and makes an announcment to the ships crew..."AARRR you scurvy dogs... we are going to carry out a suicide gank on that hulk over there. We'll get concorded in about 20 seconds, but don't worry, I'll be in my next ship doing it again in a few minutes. Oh, did I mention its a suicide attack...that will be your suicide, not mine, because I have clones. Enjoy the afterlife. Thank You"
As anyone who knows anything about RL pirates would know, they are inherently democratic, though cowardly, institutions; democratic because the crew would vote on what to do (the captain could suggest not order), and get rid of the captain (usually through the combination of a sharp knife and the captains throat) if he didn't do what the crew wanted to do - and cowardly because if there was any real risk they would run away.
EVE pirates often post that risk = reward, but where is the risk for a pirate in Eve? There is none, because he accepts that he is likely to lose his ship, or deliberately loses it.
So how to address that issue in Eve? Simple - implement a 'reputation standing'; the more ships a captain loses (not just pirates, but any player) the harder it becomes to recruit a crew and therefore fly a ship.
I would also like to suggest that a new skill is set up, that of crew training, which could affect offensive, and defensive levels, plus flight skills. The crew training skill could be linked to the chracters' standings so tha that the higher your standings, the quicker a crew trains (which is what would happen in RL).
OK, I'm off to find a tin hat and a trench to hide in...
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Fumitsugu Sylwia
Guristech One Stop Research
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Posted - 2010.07.09 10:55:00 -
[2]
I would appreciate the opportunity for parrots, eyepatches and peglegs when Incarna arrives. Also the ability to attach a Jolly Roger to my Incursus. That's realism
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Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 10:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 10:57:34 It would be a simple blood red flag most of the time - skull and cross bones came later
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LorenzoEDGE
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Posted - 2010.07.09 10:59:00 -
[4]
mostly pirates fly in fast frigates correct me if im wrong but to my knowledge frigates are one-man ships.
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:07:00 -
[5]
So what you're suggesting is a game mechanic to make people even less willing to engage in pvp? As if it's not bad enough already trying to get a decent fight.
I'm sorry that you got suicide ganked. Actually I'm not. But even if I agreed that suicide ganking should be nerfed (I don't), I still don't think there's any reason to penalise people wanting to do pvp.
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Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 11:12:34 POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
BTW I've not been killed or anything, its just an idea I've had for a while - but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:13:00 -
[7]
Crew have escape pods as well, engine doesn't show them to prevent lag.
So why should the crew care as they'll be escaping as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
Holby City
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:40:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Holby City on 09/07/2010 11:41:07 .
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Kimet Ethonise
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:44:00 -
[9]
Anyone doubting that frigates have crews should go read the Mission Description for Worlds Collide.
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Argus Kell
Gallente Silver Edge Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 11:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 11:12:34 POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
BTW I've not been killed or anything, its just an idea I've had for a while - but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
Where is it you're getting that information about the ships (I'd imagine its from novels and the like but I've never read them and I'm genuinely interested). Also, PVP doesn't infer that at all. PVP literally infers Player Versus Player. Nothing more. I'm not a pirate but I like the risk of being suicide ganked. I like being jumped and having to escape; it's what makes Eve such an interesting game to me... always a risk.
I don't think its fair to try and impose your own opinion of PVP on a game that you can already see has a clear direction it is taking with its PVP that many (including the developers it seems) are more than happy with.
I also don't think you can viably stretch the standards of modern or historic pirates to cover the pirates of the theoretical Eve universe any more than you can stretch the military tactics of Napoleon's soldiers to the soldiers of Star Wars or Battleship Galactica.
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Feiticero
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Posted - 2010.07.09 12:32:00 -
[11]
I would like to see the following mechanic implemented to reduce griefing of young players:
Every time you pod kill a player more than 1 year younger than yourself your Charisma attribute is reduced by an increment, gradually culmulating as you evil deeds multiply.
Eventually there would be a mechanic to earn back this charisma by doing 'pirate community service' whereby those gate campers would have to act as scouts for carebears flying through lowsec.
In addition, should your evil pirating deeds remain unrectified by the aforementioned good deeds then eventually Errol Flynn will spawn in an invulnerable frigate and destroy you.
Feiti
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Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 12:51:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 12:58:00
Originally by: Argus Kell
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 11:12:34 POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
BTW I've not been killed or anything, its just an idea I've had for a while - but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
Where is it you're getting that information about the ships (I'd imagine its from novels and the like but I've never read them and I'm genuinely interested). Also, PVP doesn't infer that at all. PVP literally infers Player Versus Player. Nothing more. I'm not a pirate but I like the risk of being suicide ganked. I like being jumped and having to escape; it's what makes Eve such an interesting game to me... always a risk.
I don't think its fair to try and impose your own opinion of PVP on a game that you can already see has a clear direction it is taking with its PVP that many (including the developers it seems) are more than happy with.
I also don't think you can viably stretch the standards of modern or historic pirates to cover the pirates of the theoretical Eve universe any more than you can stretch the military tactics of Napoleon's soldiers to the soldiers of Star Wars or Battleship Galactica.
You can't have it both ways - if this is me 'imposing my opinion of pvp on others', then if I choose not to be involved with pvp then you can't impose your desire to do so on me...because it then becomes a form of bullying.
I was using the comparison with old-time pirates because it can be argued that EVE is a role playing game, and if you're role playing as a pirate then my original post is 'valid'.
In any case I still think the wider issue of 'crew training' as a skill is a good one, and none of the respondents have critiscised it.
BTW I've been playing for about 16 months, but not with this character which is maybe what has consused some of the respondents
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Jones Bones
Final Agony
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hestia Mar but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
lolwut?
You don't "get" EVE.
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Syekuda
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:32:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
--------------------------------------------------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
ISAAC ASIMOV |
Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 13:50:49
Originally by: Jones Bones
Originally by: Hestia Mar but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
lolwut?
You don't "get" EVE.
Well, I might not 'get' your EVE, but I'm not playing your Eve, I'm playing mine.
I know it goes against the pvp myth, but pvp is a minority part of the game given more prominence than it deserves - you only have to read the pvp'ers whining posts because its difficult to do solo pvp anymore.
But that takes the argument off track - the original post was to discuss introducing risk to piracy - but maybe some pirates are scared of that?
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Jones Bones
Final Agony
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:52:00 -
[16]
Risk to piracy?
You're talking about suicide ganking. Of which their are numerous risks and guaranteed ship loss.
Who am I kidding, you're trolling or extremely naive.
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Astald Ohtar
Tous Pour Un Une Pour Tous
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Posted - 2010.07.09 13:56:00 -
[17]
i just buy tones of salves for my boat to work as crew members, why do i need charisma?
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Torothin
Shadow Morning
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:03:00 -
[18]
Piracy is not suidice ganking. Suicide ganking is suicide ganking. Piracy is being in low-sec, empire, or 0.0. Locking down a ship taking him into hull and demanding a ransom for his ship. Or kill his ship and ransom the pilots pod. That is piracy in it's finest form. Just thought I would clarify things for the idiots out there. There seem to be several in this thread......
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siC0 b0b
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:07:00 -
[19]
I don't understand why is an image of a "pirate" in this game same as in Peter Pan fairy tales, child books and cartoons in general. Read about modern piracy and grow up.
Annother thing i don't understand is why isn't your character representing the whole crew, you don't have to operate ev'rything on a Titan, but you need the skills for it, same as you need skills to properly operate turrets with all the support skills, while in theory you're a captain. It's just a built in flaw, where there was a system made for playing internet space ships with some unwritten understanding of mechanics and after that ev'rything was built around it in novels and other papers.
If i ever had to put what this game gives me together, i'd assume that we're all just AIs doing ev'rything and there's no crew. I never read anything outside the game, however.
Lastly it was stated by someone from CCP that Frigates mostly don't have crews, only ships up higher do.
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Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:21:00 -
[20]
Well, I've had my say so I won't post any more on the subject.
I do wonder though, how some of you lot actually hit any ships you're targetting, becuase you completely missed the point of the OP.
Ho Ho
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Novantco
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:36:00 -
[21]
No.
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:37:00 -
[22]
What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only one Eve.
And this one Eve which actually exists allows pvp any time and everywhere. If your total safety would be intended we would have some stupid **** like PvP flags or something.
So in fact 'your' Eve in which you are totally safe and never get 'griefed' (read up about griefing, please do) doesn't exist. Whereas 'my' Eve happens to be the real one where I can shot anybody, anytime.
+ I'm pretty that all this "Pirates in the 1700's were shipbound democrates" nonsense we hear about is revisionist history fueled by the romanticizing of Pirates in popular culture. If anything I can see an environment as in other lawless societies (gangs etc.) with the captain the gangleader, alpha male or however you want to call it. Pretty sure Blackbeard for instance did convince his crew that he was the devil himself.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
You are partly correct... the pod pilot does control the ship, but according to the author below, there is still a crew for the maintenance of the vessel.
Aeon's short stories _______ Originally by: "Andracin" "you must realize the truth...there is no ship...then you will find that it is not the ship you fly that sucks...it is yourself..."
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siC0 b0b
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:39:00 -
[24]
Actually you have assumed that somehow you have a crew you don't have to supply or pay since day one where you can man a frigate, cruiser or a titan with it, with no effort and within seconds. That despite the fact cloning is so popular, your so called crew doesn't have access to it, that whenever a ship explodes only you escape meaning anyone who flies with you has no chance in combat and is actually flying a space coffin. AAAAAAAAANNNNNNDDDDD that flying a space ship is like a TV drama.
I just don't think you ever had a point.
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LadyZelda
Ordo Nigrorum Susurri Ordo Magna
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
And in one of the last sentences we find this: Pirkotan was not happy with the situation and while he was aware that many of the crew members felt the same way, he knew better than to complain. With these troubled thoughts on his mind, Pirkotan reached the bridge.
So what you imply is that the story tels about not having a crew as the pod controls the ship but, this sentence refers to a crew and reaching the bridge..... odd.
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.09 14:50:00 -
[26]
That story is about the first Caldari trial of the Jovian pod technology. So of course this particular ship has a bridge.
Read these cronicles to learn about our present day crews: click click2
I sure don't see them have a say in anything.
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D DD
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:03:00 -
[27]
Edited by: D DD on 09/07/2010 15:04:20
Originally by: Hestia Mar As anyone who knows anything about RL pirates would know, they are inherently democratic, though cowardly, institutions; democratic because the crew would vote on what to do (the captain could suggest not order), and get rid of the captain (usually through the combination of a sharp knife and the captains throat) if he didn't do what the crew wanted to do - and cowardly because if there was any real risk they would run away.
Don't we already have this from the standpoint of a corporation or alliance? If the FC/CEO/Director is a ******, people don't want to fly with him.
Originally by: Hestia Mar Simple - implement a 'reputation standing'; the more ships a captain loses (not just pirates, but any player) the harder it becomes to recruit a crew and therefore fly a ship.
How would one gain standings? Or, would it just be that after a while everyone (we all lose ships eventually) will not be able to fly anything?
Originally by: Hestia Mar
I would also like to suggest that a new skill is set up, that of crew training, which could affect offensive, and defensive levels, plus flight skills.
Don't we already have these?
Offensive: gun, drone, and missile skills. Defensive: shield, armor, and hull skills. Flight skills: navigation, spaceship command
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Eelis Kiy
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hestia Mar pvp infers consent from both sides
It's called the undock button. -----------------------------
>>where the frack is my ship?<< |
Argus Kell
Gallente Silver Edge Mercenaries Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:18:00 -
[29]
As always this is all just nonsense with an OP who won't discuss their ideas but will just argue for them. Eve Online has always been described as PVP game by the developers. Even in the respect of market PVP.
Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I don't see the need for any of the OP's ideas, even in regard to suicide ganking and to say that Eve Online isn't a PVP game is ridiculous.
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War Kitten
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hestia Mar
As anyone who knows anything about RL pirates would know, they are inherently democratic, though cowardly, institutions; democratic because the crew would vote on what to do (the captain could suggest not order), and get rid of the captain (usually through the combination of a sharp knife and the captains throat) if he didn't do what the crew wanted to do - and cowardly because if there was any real risk they would run away.
WTF??
First off, "RL pirates" refers to what? Movies? Novels? or do you know some Somali pirates off the coast of Africa that are actually operating today?
Secondly, no ship or vessel on land, air or sea, is run by a democratic process. You would crash, get lost or be shot down by the first opponent you encountered. One man leads, the crew follows him - not vice-versa. It's a dictatorship.
Quote:
EVE pirates often post that risk = reward, but where is the risk for a pirate in Eve? There is none, because he accepts that he is likely to lose his ship, or deliberately loses it.
Accepting the risk/loss is not the same as no risk.
Quote:
So how to address that issue in Eve?
No issue, no need. |
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Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:32:00 -
[31]
Pirates cannot 'properly' flourish because of the way EVE handles criminals:
Only two types of punishment: loss of ship, loss of sec status A 100% arrest and conviction rate
The loss of ship is determined by the criminal, and the loss of sec status is predetermined. Everyone that commits a 'crime' knows exactly what is going to happen to him. With predetermined punishment and 100% conviction rate, any premeditated crime should not occur unless the punishment is too low.
It is like the police destroying your getaway car when you rob a bank. If you know the car is cheaper than the booty from the bank, then of course everyone is going to rob banks with their cheap cars.
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:38:00 -
[32]
Accepting the fact that you are going to get blown up does not mean there is no risk. It means the OP is a dumbass.
I accept the fact that I'm going to lose 150m worth of Dramiel when i shoot a cruiser in a belt. does it always happen? no. is he going to be a bait? maybe. will he fight? maybe. either way, i'm already fully committed win or lose, and thats risk.
If you're too stupid to understand that everytime you undock you consent to pvp, then you should go back to wow. i actually fly amarr |
Hestia Mar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 15:38:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell As always this is all just nonsense with an OP who won't discuss their ideas but will just argue for them. Eve Online has always been described as PVP game by the developers. Even in the respect of market PVP.
Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I don't see the need for any of the OP's ideas, even in regard to suicide ganking and to say that Eve Online isn't a PVP game is ridiculous.
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
My OP was not that there should be no pvp or Pirates, but simply that if you're no good at it, you won't get a crew.
As for EVE being a pvp game - maybe that was the intention, but of the 25000 or so players online now, how many are in high sec doing carebear stuff - 20,000? I'm happy with the way things are, so if I choose to go into low-sec I know what could happen to me. As someone said earlier, there is no 'my Eve' there is only Eve. Fair enough. But for the particiapnts in Hulkageddon to to gank some noob who is in his first mining cruiser, just 'cos they can, without any consquences, is riduclous; their suicude is not a consequnce because they don't lose anything whereas the noob miner might lose just about everything.
There was a post in a forum earlier this week from a 5-day player wanting to know how to fit a gank ship for Hulkageddon - but would he do that if he knew that he probably wouldn't be able to fly another ship for a week or so? No - he's doing it because there no consequences for him
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Sun'Tzu Yin
Gallente Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:39:00 -
[34]
There was a post in a forum earlier this week from a 5-day player wanting to know how to fit a gank ship for Hulkageddon - but would he do that if he knew that he probably wouldn't be able to fly another ship for a week or so? No - he's doing it because there [are not enough consequences to satisfy me]
There, fixed that one for ya, no charge this time.
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War Kitten
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:53:00 -
[35]
Edited by: War Kitten on 09/07/2010 16:54:08
Originally by: Hestia Mar ... I'm happy with the way things are, so if I choose to go into low-sec I know what could happen to me.
/thread |
Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ghaylenty I accept the fact that I'm going to lose 150m worth of Dramiel when i shoot a cruiser in a belt. does it always happen? no. is he going to be a bait? maybe. will he fight? maybe. either way, i'm already fully committed win or lose, and thats risk.
You do realize of course that 'Dramiel' and 'fully comitted' are the two words that go least together when talking about EVE PvP. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Absent Cloaker
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:02:00 -
[37]
First, please don't say hoorah, only marines use that and you whine to much to be a marine.
The sandbox feel of Eve is perfect, it allows all types of events to take place. One of my favorite being hulkageddon, I'm not a industrialist or am I going and suicide ganking them. But the idea that this type of event can and has occurred is what attracts me to eve. I do have many contacts in game that are industrial/mining pilots, and you know what they do during hulkageddon...mission. That's right they keep informed and actually counter the fact that the pirates broadcast the dates of the event on open forums.
In Eve it is important to stay informed, this is even more important than skills or the ship you fly. When I look for pilots to pvp with, I look for the ones who try to stay informed and are observant of there surroundings, I really don't care if they fly a Vigil or a Nyx.
I'm glad you would like to see a change, and have proposed one that you believe is reasonable, the fact that you can do this is a testament to Eve's strength. I would personally not approve of your idea for the simple reason that the 'crew' is there to maintain the ship, and when you go out to suicide gank, like scuttling a ship, you evacuate the crew.
AC |
Bulllrock
Heroes.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:51:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Absent Cloaker First, please don't say hoorah, only marines use that and you whine to much to be a marine.
Swing and a miss mate. Marines say "Oorah," not hoorah. Hoorah is something little kids say when they get a new bike.
The whole crew idea could be interesting, but it would never work out. Punishing people for losing ships, on top of the x isk lost and possibly their pod with expensive implants? Welcome to WoW v2.
Now, if you were to say, only people in highsec criminally engaging somebody would lose that standing attribute, then possibly it could work out.
But you just said, "people who lose a ship," more or less, so yeah, that'll never fly.
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Holby City
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:59:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
You've missed my point. I didn't say "because it is suicide", I said "Because they think it is suicide". You could be on a mission, or even be the target of a suicide gank and all these self-aware crew members ditch you and leave you to die when you may have had a fighting chance. There is no real need for your idea and if you were to implement it where would the little guys' free will end?
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Danny Lonnegan
Caldari Nex Somes Ubertas Venator Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.07.10 19:50:00 -
[40]
Even if I thought suicide ganking was bad, completely breaking PVP to prevent it is stupid. Everyone who PVPs loses ships; it's inevitable. OP is suggesting that anyone who does it--whether pirating, or roaming in a small gang, or doing Red vs. Blue, or fighting in a big alliance war--eventually loses the ability to play the game at all. It wouldn't even just affect PVPers--wormhole carebears die all the time; this system would punish them, too.
Really, this idea isn't anything besides a thinly-veiled suggestion to turn EVE into a PVE game. You can't even voluntarily PVP under this system. You may as well come right out and say CCP should implement PVP flags, or split the server into PVP and PVE shards, because that's actually a less terrible idea than this one.
Honestly, I have no idea why people sign up for a PVP game and then insist it ought to be turned into WOW in Spaaaaaace!.
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omgevenmoarfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.07.10 21:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only one Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only my Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that your opinion is false, and mine is true, STFU!
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2010.07.10 22:12:00 -
[42]
I agree with the Op you could not get people to just suicide themselves how would that eve work.
Alara> So your Dirt poor and your entire family is starving is that correct. Crewman Bob> Yes I am poor and my family will die soon, I will do anyhting. Alara> 5000ISK will feed them all for the rest of there life but you will die. Ganker Bob> I guess I have no choice. Alara> Welcome to the team Breakrooms on the third deck, Human Resources is in the airlock
I mean sure if your some kinda monster but everyone in eve will have too large a moral centre for this.
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Orimei
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Posted - 2010.07.11 01:00:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Orimei on 11/07/2010 01:02:32
Originally by: omgevenmoarfreemoniez
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only one Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that there isn't your Eve and my Eve. There is only my Eve.
Originally by: Orimei What you have to 'get' is that your opinion is false, and mine is true, STFU!
Well, I happen to play this game called Eve where I can shot anyone, anywhere. It's in the game mechanics. Care to explain how you think the game mechanics are only there in my opinion?
Actually I think you are right, all this PvP was just a figment of my imagination. Sorry for the inconveniance.
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Zemkhoff
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Posted - 2010.07.11 07:33:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Holby City
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 15:42:27
Originally by: Argus Kell Realism isn't always best. Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?
I said I wasn't going to post again, but this just takes the biscuit - "Would you like it if your crew ditched you mid-mission because they were convinced it were suicide?" - hoorah, someone has finally hit the nail on the head - that was my whole point, because thats what would happen...
You've missed my point. I didn't say "because it is suicide", I said "Because they think it is suicide". You could be on a mission, or even be the target of a suicide gank and all these self-aware crew members ditch you and leave you to die when you may have had a fighting chance. There is no real need for your idea and if you were to implement it where would the little guys' free will end?
How likely would it have been that counterstrike would become a game where people competitively play for money if valve had decided that the guns should randomly jam for the sake of realism? Or if was one-shot one-kill regardless of weapon or bodypart? Or if there was no spamming through walls?
Realism in trivial video games is usually stupid. And boring.
All those nice videos of people in curses or other FOTM-solopwnmobiles killing multiple people? Say goodbye to those.
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Clytamnestra
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.07.11 09:57:00 -
[45]
Creating simulations to emulate aspects of the real world, is not game design.
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Rocktown
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Posted - 2010.07.11 14:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Edited by: Hestia Mar on 09/07/2010 11:12:34 POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
BTW I've not been killed or anything, its just an idea I've had for a while - but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
pvp=player versus player. You don't have to consent for me to violence your boat.
The argument that blowing up a hulk in highsec isn't pvp is a weak one. |
Vee Raa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.07.11 15:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hestia Mar .. realism ...
You asked for it, the engineering crews are deactivating your warp drives right now.
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Dirlewanger
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:22:00 -
[48]
Actually, having ship crews as BONUS (not penalty) that you must pay a salary to and which grow in skill (and exponentially in price) would be fun.
Have "patriot" ones for FW, better than average and cheaper, but take them to 0.0 and they **** off.
Have pirate ones that bail ship if you don't kill players
Merc ones that are in it only for the money and cost a lot
etc etc.
Think of them as mods with manias. Levels 1 to 5, with the best giving say 5% to damage and tracking for example. Others better repair, tank, target locking, whatever - just small increments though.
Would be a pretty decent money sink too.
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Absolom Hues
Gallente Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:32:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Absolom Hues on 12/07/2010 18:32:39
Originally by: Dirlewanger Actually, having ship crews as BONUS (not penalty) that you must pay a salary to and which grow in skill (and exponentially in price) would be fun.
Have "patriot" ones for FW, better than average and cheaper, but take them to 0.0 and they **** off.
Have pirate ones that bail ship if you don't kill players
Merc ones that are in it only for the money and cost a lot
etc etc.
Think of them as mods with manias. Levels 1 to 5, with the best giving say 5% to damage and tracking for example. Others better repair, tank, target locking, whatever - just small increments though.
Would be a pretty decent money sink too.
Ya... you could also have Fanatic Crews that could be used for Suicide ganks: "For the Cause!....." "Boom" _______ Originally by: "Andracin" "you must realize the truth...there is no ship...then you will find that it is not the ship you fly that sucks...it is yourself..."
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Gligan
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:32:00 -
[50]
actually if you read the stories posted on the site you'll know that the whole reason of the pod is that 1 person can command the whole ship. There's still ships with crew,however capsuleers ships are 1 man 1 ship. That's why in the intro movie they tell you you're a demi god.
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Radcjk
Failed Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Hestia Mar Ok picture the scene - the pirate capsuleers is in his ship and makes an announcment to the ships crew..."AARRR you scurvy dogs... we are going to carry out a suicide gank on that hulk over there. We'll get concorded in about 20 seconds, but don't worry, I'll be in my next ship doing it again in a few minutes. Oh, did I mention its a suicide attack...that will be your suicide, not mine, because I have clones. Enjoy the afterlife. Thank You"
As anyone who knows anything about RL pirates would know, they are inherently democratic, though cowardly, institutions; democratic because the crew would vote on what to do (the captain could suggest not order), and get rid of the captain (usually through the combination of a sharp knife and the captains throat) if he didn't do what the crew wanted to do - and cowardly because if there was any real risk they would run away.
EVE pirates often post that risk = reward, but where is the risk for a pirate in Eve? There is none, because he accepts that he is likely to lose his ship, or deliberately loses it.
So how to address that issue in Eve? Simple - implement a 'reputation standing'; the more ships a captain loses (not just pirates, but any player) the harder it becomes to recruit a crew and therefore fly a ship.
I would also like to suggest that a new skill is set up, that of crew training, which could affect offensive, and defensive levels, plus flight skills. The crew training skill could be linked to the chracters' standings so tha that the higher your standings, the quicker a crew trains (which is what would happen in RL).
OK, I'm off to find a tin hat and a trench to hide in...
Piracy is an act that has occurred as long as man has had boats. They all didn't operate the same way and captains typically had their own enforcers or means of preventing said mutinies as well.
Also, PvP is, by definition, Player vs. Player. Consent is not implied nor stated.
Originally by: Kimet Ethonise Anyone doubting that frigates have crews should go read the Mission Description for Worlds Collide.
That's also a non capsule vessel.
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Cattegirn
Rampant SR
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:52:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
That's the correct version. While a pod controlled ship *can* have crew, the pod pilot replaced traditional crews by removing the human factors of space travel from the equation. (i.e., sickness, life support, etc.)
Also why, theoretically, the NPC ships perform much worse than the capsule-based equivalent hull.
Eve has a pretty weak storyline, with the novel being only connected to the game in theme, and the rest being mere justifications (albeit creative) for game design. |
RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:34:00 -
[53]
its a suicide ship, shouldn't even need a crew!
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Launcelot Vigee
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.07.12 23:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Orimei + I'm pretty that all this "Pirates in the 1700's were shipbound democrates" nonsense we hear about is revisionist history fueled by the romanticizing of Pirates in popular culture. If anything I can see an environment as in other lawless societies (gangs etc.) with the captain the gangleader, alpha male or however you want to call it. Pretty sure Blackbeard for instance did convince his crew that he was the devil himself.
Hello. First post. Actually, it was true that pirate vessels were run as 'democracies', but not in the sense of the standard liberal democracy that we are used to. Leaders were 'elected' largely by consent, as more or less a vote of confidence in their abilities to (1) find the marks, as piracy was and is an economic venture, and (2) keep themselves alive, as a dead pirate has no way to spend his money. Edward Thatch was no doubt one bad, bad man, but even he required the consent of his men, lest he be a captain without a crew, as there would be nothing to stop them from walking away the next time they were ashore.
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Dotard
Minmatar Com-Star SOLARIS - SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.07.13 10:39:00 -
[55]
Constant antipie blobsquads in any lowsec sound risky enough to me. Every second target is bait. And if it's not, it's usually not worth it.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:29:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dirlewanger
mods with manias.
Actually quite a good idea ^^
It doesn't take much imagination to fight the gankers, last year I bagged myself a faction fit CNR thanks to kill rights. This year my alt will be mining in the busiest belts with a neon 'kill me' sign above his head.
If you really want CCP to do something about suicide ganking then introduce a working bounty system. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |
Dotard
Minmatar Com-Star SOLARIS - SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.07.13 11:47:00 -
[57]
Originally by: yani dumyat If you really want CCP to do something about suicide ganking then introduce a working bounty system.[/quote
This actually seems like a good and simple enough idea.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.14 12:10:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hestia Mar
Originally by: Jones Bones
Originally by: Hestia Mar but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
lolwut?
You don't "get" EVE.
Well, I might not 'get' your EVE, but I'm not playing your Eve, I'm playing mine.
He's right, you don't get EVE at all.
Besides, it isn't yours, it's CCP's EVE. To add, you consent to space based ship PVP when click on undock whether you like it or not.
HTFU.
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Eskaron
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.20 07:41:00 -
[59]
from my opinion the only problem about pirates is that there are no (or very very few) pirates. A pirate should ransom not just shoot everything.
98% of the so called pirates i met are genrating theyr isk through mission runner or trade alts and just blow a bit of isk in low and nullsec while calling themself pirates. But never do ransoms. Another reason is that nobody wants to pay ransoms. i tried it multiple times to offer ransoms but nobody wants to pay.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.20 13:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Eskaron 98% of the so called pirates i met are genrating theyr isk through mission runner or trade alts and just blow a bit of isk in low and nullsec while calling themself pirates. But never do ransoms.
My ebil pie rat alt character ransoms every chance she gets. Here's the problem, though: Very few people will pay ransoms, which means you need to blow their ship up in order to get anything of value. Then you run into the problem that it takes a LOT of successes to cover the costs of just one loss.
I try to keep my character as independent as possible using only loot/ransoms for income, but it difficult to break even much less make a decent profit. Taking insurance into account, flying T2 ships is a true luxury when you have this kind of play style.
Of course you can always take an ultra-conservative stance on target selection, which is what I used to do, but then I ended up not getting into any combat at all and that gets boring after a while. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:08:00 -
[61]
The assumption that Eve piracy and pirate crews would opperate similarly to those of the "Golden Age" of pirates is a falicy. Pirates during those days had to rely on the help of each other in the crew. This is not the same as Eve. Eve pirates are more, well, have you read any of the Warhammer 40k novels? That is more the impression I get. It's a harsh, cold universe and well... in a battleship, most of the crew aren't exactly there voluntarily. They are press-ganged into fighting, they have no say on following the captain's orders, and it is by no means a democracy. They are basically slaves.
I, as captain in my pod, could easily vent all the gasses in my ship at a whim. I don't care, I'll just press-gang another crew later, or there is even one already waiting. The crew, for the most part, are hoping just to survive, make a small living or maybe their freedom.
So I don't think it works like the way you think so there would be on point to this realism you suggest.
Look at the chronical on planetry interaction. If a capsuler thinks nothing of bombing cities into oblivion just so they can mine the planet dry, well, I don't think they all care that much for their crew.
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Aerion Va'rr
Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:13:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia The assumption that Eve piracy and pirate crews would opperate similarly to those of the "Golden Age" of pirates is a falicy. Pirates during those days had to rely on the help of each other in the crew. This is not the same as Eve. Eve pirates are more, well, have you read any of the Warhammer 40k novels? That is more the impression I get. It's a harsh, cold universe and well... in a battleship, most of the crew aren't exactly there voluntarily. They are press-ganged into fighting, they have no say on following the captain's orders, and it is by no means a democracy. They are basically slaves.
I, as captain in my pod, could easily vent all the gasses in my ship at a whim. I don't care, I'll just press-gang another crew later, or there is even one already waiting. The crew, for the most part, are hoping just to survive, make a small living or maybe their freedom.
So I don't think it works like the way you think so there would be on point to this realism you suggest.
Look at the chronical on planetry interaction. If a capsuler thinks nothing of bombing cities into oblivion just so they can mine the planet dry, well, I don't think they all care that much for their crew.
According to EvE Lore and whatnot- supposedly Jovian Capsule technology allows us to single man these vessels iirc. But the novel 'Empyrean Age' would suggest that ships have a crew, given the massive size of some of them, this seems very reasonable; Being able to singlehandedly command a Dreadnaught for instance, would give me the SNL Mike Tyson at Sizzler's Syndrome ('Who doesn't like my **** in the butter tray').
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.07.20 14:35:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Gladys Pank on 20/07/2010 14:39:46 They should also make missioning more realistic and give security hits or impose jail time or even revoke pilot licenses for a suitable duration based on war crimes (one day per ship destroyed at the least) on mission runners for all those people they brutally murder on a daily basis.
Looks like 1 crew member to me. Signature removed. Not related to your in game character or related to EVE Online in any way. Navigator |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.20 15:39:00 -
[64]
the novel mentioned that they still had crews when the technology was immature. these days the only ships that have crews on them officially i believe are npc pirate ships.
a capsuleer is supposed to be a demigod, dune-esque. their ships are capable of such incredible things because they are piloted by only one person. the canon reason for npc's being weaksauce is that they are 'regular' people whilst we are badasses among badasses.
there was some novel excerpt posted a week ago or so that talked about how a hyperion, if it was piloted by anyone but a capsuleer, would crush the bodies of the crew simply based on the laws of motion. i actually fly amarr |
Valerius Marcus
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Posted - 2010.07.22 22:49:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kimet Ethonise Anyone doubting that frigates have crews should go read the Mission Description for Worlds Collide.
From The Jovian Wetgrave
Quote: "This is a capsule," Anu said to the Caldari. "It is used to control a ship. With it a ship a big as this one can be controlled with only a handful of crew and smaller ships, like your frigates, can even be controlled by a single person."
(emphasis added)
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Terbulus
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Posted - 2010.07.23 00:12:00 -
[66]
I remember seeing messages in game, when I try to switch between ships too fast, that says "hang on, your crew is still transfering" or something along those lines. its in the game. we have crews.
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Serrad Trenn
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.23 01:01:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Valerius Marcus
Originally by: Kimet Ethonise Anyone doubting that frigates have crews should go read the Mission Description for Worlds Collide.
From The Jovian Wetgrave
Quote: "This is a capsule," Anu said to the Caldari. "It is used to control a ship. With it a ship a big as this one can be controlled with only a handful of crew and smaller ships, like your frigates, can even be controlled by a single person."
(emphasis added)
Though, contrary to what others in this thread seem to think this also means, that larger ships have crew, even with capsule. Also: All these lives...
btt: Restricting someones ability to fly ships because of too many ships lost is a bad idea. And even though it could maybe make sense story-wise, that crews mutiny in these kinds of situations it would be bad for the game, imo.
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FarosWarrior
Amarr Pure Dutch Damage Corp United Royal Dreams
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Posted - 2010.07.23 14:32:00 -
[68]
Internet spaceships is also realistic of course!
Oh wait...
Always lootin' Always shootin' Always movin'
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Svarty II
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.24 14:51:00 -
[69]
Realism in Eve is a joke. If there were realism, CONCORD would not just blow up your ship and leave you to go and get another one.
It's like robbers in a store having their getaway van destroyed by the cops and then being allowed to go on their merry way.
If you want realism, characters who CONCORD blow up should then be put in jail for several years.
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Jalabaster
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Posted - 2010.07.24 20:56:00 -
[70]
Quote: POD = just you Frigate = Small crew Cruiser = More Crew BC = Larger crew BS = Thousands of crew Dread = 10s of thousands of crew Titan = 100s of thousands of crew
Um, I'm only like a month old, but doesn't the EVE backstory go something like this? Jovians give humans pod technology, enabling single humans to be capable of piloting ships that once took a crew of over a thousand men. That's just what I heard, but hey, I'm only a month old; what do I know.
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Agent Mutilate
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Posted - 2010.07.25 03:55:00 -
[71]
wait, you have a crew in EVE? when'd that happen?
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Kai Saito
Gallente Blowing Coal
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Posted - 2010.07.25 19:04:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Hestia Mar but suicide ganking hulks isn't pvp, because pvp infers consent from both sides
PvC? Pirate vs Carebear
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Salen Kane
Amarr Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:42:00 -
[73]
Lets also put realism in mining! Whenever a neutral locks a hulk, the hulk crew should mutiny, kill the capsuleer and offer the netural to take ownership of the hulk, because that course of action offers them the best chance of survival. Also, during hulkageddon, no mining ships should be able to undock because the crews would all go on strike. Those who would equate EVE violence with RL violence deserves to suffer both. |
Anhenka
Minmatar Jotunheimr Productions Ltd. Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.08.10 00:14:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Feiticero I would like to see the following mechanic implemented to reduce griefing of young players:
Every time you pod kill a player more than 1 year younger than yourself your Charisma attribute is reduced by an increment, gradually culmulating as you evil deeds multiply.
In addition, should your evil pirating deeds remain unrectified by the aforementioned good deeds then eventually Errol Flynn will spawn in an invulnerable frigate and destroy you.
Feiti
Lulz....fully supported. A great opportunity to give the whiny people a bone while hiding the simple fact that NOBODY CARES ABOUT CHARISMA! I mean, the only CHA skill I ever trained was leadership V....for fighters, and I think 90% of the pirating segment of eve is in the same boat as me there, who didn't strip all possible points out of charisma at your first remap :)?
Can we add in a bit of Fable as well and hasve our portaits grow horns and get creepy tattoo's as our questionably moral activites continue as well :P ?
And who the hell is Errol Flynn and where can I also steal a concord frigate? If you cant be good, be lucky If you cant be lucky, dont fly Minmatar The red button is your friend |
Joe McAlt
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Posted - 2010.08.10 02:39:00 -
[75]
First, as a historical note, Pirates in the golden age did indeed operate under a kind of democratic process, the first officer was a sort of crew representitive to the captain. His role was a powerful one and no Captain would easily have disregarded his opinion. That said, it is completely immaterial to eve. If it is considered necessary to have a crew, then the game will soon create an automation rig and the whole problem will fall into the biomass converter where it belongs. Next as a player of 2 months, I would hate it if the game suddenly nerfed ganking or piracy. It's the constant threat of attack that makes minning tolerable. You hope that any ship you buy will pay for itself before it gets destroyed and then be ready to get another one. This is EVE and no one promised you'd be safe anywhere outside a station. I have been attacked several times in high sec and have only been destroyed once, but even then, I was able to get back out there quickly enough to salvage not only my wreck, but the wrecks of the attackers who were blasted by Concord. Why anyone would do that without support I can't figure out, but never the less thats what happened. For myself, I count those as wins.
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Radakos
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Posted - 2010.08.10 05:07:00 -
[76]
yar...
To be killed or to kill.. that is the game... amen
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Bagrista
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Posted - 2010.08.11 15:04:00 -
[77]
4/10, because you managed to get a lot of people to bite. This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Mackenna
Amarr Eye of God Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.11 15:12:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
From the story:
Quote:
"This is a capsule," Anu said to the Caldari. "It is used to control a ship. With it a ship a big as this one can be controlled with only a handful of crew and smaller ships, like your frigates, can even be controlled by a single person."
Crews do make sense. You don't need to look into the lore for answers here... the fact that ships continue to be built in shapes that accommodate the separation of workspaces and should clue you in here. If only one person were needed for each ship, each ship's size was only a function of the size of the equipment placed in it, and the only person on the ship were protected against insanely high inertial forces, we'd all be flying giant spheres.
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Admiral Hawke
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Posted - 2010.08.11 18:22:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Absolom Hues
Originally by: Syekuda Edited by: Syekuda on 09/07/2010 13:33:34 If you read this story (yes reading as in letters from A to Z) among many others, your single pod controls the whole ship. No crew needed afaik. I didn't read all the stories but from what I know, your pod can control everything. So your crew idea doesn't make any sense. But it's a good idea to have other bonuses since it would make sense.
You are partly correct... the pod pilot does control the ship, but according to the author below, there is still a crew for the maintenance of the vessel.
Aeon's short stories
AND - The main idea of crews comes from noncapsuleer pilots in eve(the NPCs). At least to the best of my knowledge. Either way, adding penalties to pirates is pretty meh in my opinion. Just go out and get some revenge.
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Avion Saberis
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.11 22:23:00 -
[80]
Yarr, harr, harr!
really though who cares about having a crew. There maybe parts in the game that says stuff about crew and what not, but overall, most ships dont' have crews. Just one guy in a **** filled capsule killing ppl in a BC and not having any other care in the world. If you don't like PvP, well thats you. If you had the chance to attack someone defenseless you'd take, you know you would. So stop complaining, it's quite annoying. -------------------------------------------
I like to hide, then when the right moment comes, i go pew, pew, pew, then i go back to hiding, :) |
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Cikulisuy
Amarr D00M.
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Posted - 2010.08.12 10:58:00 -
[81]
Originally by: siC0 b0b Actually you have assumed that somehow you have a crew you don't have to supply or pay since day one where you can man a frigate, cruiser or a titan with it, with no effort and within seconds. That despite the fact cloning is so popular, your so called crew doesn't have access to it, that whenever a ship explodes only you escape meaning anyone who flies with you has no chance in combat and is actually flying a space coffin. AAAAAAAAANNNNNNDDDDD that flying a space ship is like a TV drama.
I just don't think you ever had a point.
read the chronicle hands of a killer, then come back here and apologize for being a moron. ~ |
Zeuth Proxy
Caldari Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2010.08.13 08:09:00 -
[82]
Ah the crew debate. Its been awile.
Ships do have crews. While the pod pilot has full control over navigation, weapon systems, defenses, etc crews are still used to maintain the ship itself. Making sure its in top shape at all times.
Since Pod Pilots are considered "Demi-Gods" to normal civilians it is a honor to become a crew member on a ship. The money "which usually goes to their family" is more then enough to rationalize risking their life. When a ship is destroyed the crew does have a chance to escape in escape pods.
Crew Sizes- Frigates - ~8 Cruisers - ~450 Battleships - 1,000
Sadly I believe CCP stopped caring about coding in proper crew sizes into ships. The numbers where found using Evemon > Ship Browser > System > maxPassengers. There use to be a site that had more accurate crew sizes but Iam to lazy to search.
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