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Larkonis Trassler
EMIX INC
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:53:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 09/07/2010 17:50:48 You guys are a bunch of short-sighted whiners.
Check it out. You have a PLEX you want to sell. You want to sell it in X station. Instead of putting it in your cargo, LEAVE IT IN YOUR REDEEM ITEMS BOX (or convert it there or whatever) and then once you arrive to the destination get it out. Easy peasy.
Hey Siig, talking of redeem items boxes, still waiting on that 2 bil to show up in mine.
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Elsymir Crystalblood
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:57:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom This allows another player to directly STEAL my ... item
Not sure if this is a troll (probably, oh well), but I'll bite:
The most core assumption about your argument? That you own the PLEX? Especially since you paid cash for it? Yeah that one.
It's wrong.
You surrender your $40 in order to have access to two PLEXes, nothing more. The EULA of most MMOs clearly lays out that all content in the game itself is expressly owned by the game developer (here, CCP), and, essentially, that you are just "renting" any property, digital or otherwise, that you acquire while playing the game.
PLEXes are no different. As a digital item in CCP's game, they are expressly owned by CCP. You gave them $40 to rent those PLEXes, but in doing so surrendered to their terms and conditions of rental - which, come the thirteenth, will include the possibility of spontaneously losing those PLEXes as a result of player actions should you choose to leave a station while carrying PLEXes in your cargohold.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what you're paying for before paying for it.
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Melkath Bandrom
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:01:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
...except that you buy the code FOR the PLEX with cash, not the PLEX itself.
It doesn't matter. The fact is that cash could be spent with the expectation that it would be applied toward my game time or whatever other reason I decide to use it for. That item, should it be destroyed or stolen is still an item that could be purchased for cash.
If I pay CASH for something, CCP should NOT introduce a game mechanic that allows theft or financial damage to me. It's that simple. Stealing a PLEX paid for with cash is on par with character theft IMHO. It's the same because in both cases CASH was spent on creating/maintaining my character. Character theft is illegal. So should PLEX theft be.
ANY ITEM anyone legally purchase in game should not be exposed to this game mechanic, no matter if there is a code or not.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
...except that you buy the code FOR the PLEX with cash, not the PLEX itself.
It doesn't matter. The fact is that cash could be spent with the expectation that it would be applied toward my game time or whatever other reason I decide to use it for. That item, should it be destroyed or stolen is still an item that could be purchased for cash.
If I pay CASH for something, CCP should NOT introduce a game mechanic that allows theft or financial damage to me. It's that simple. Stealing a PLEX paid for with cash is on par with character theft IMHO. It's the same because in both cases CASH was spent on creating/maintaining my character. Character theft is illegal. So should PLEX theft be.
ANY ITEM anyone legally purchase in game should not be exposed to this game mechanic, no matter if there is a code or not.
Don't get me wrong - I agree with you.
Problem is that you pay for the code, not the PLEX... and that technically you don't own any items, CCP only lets you "rent" everything on TQ (for lack of a better word: play around with it)
Item DB | Sigs
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Sakrak
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:05:00 -
[35]
I think this topic just shows that Eve players will whine about anything. CCP is giving another option, that is it. You still have your 100% safe way of doing things. To those that think a PLEX = Real Money. if a PLEX is money, what happens when you sell it for ISK? Does ISK = money then? If a = b, and b = c, then a = c. Does this mean that any item that is bought with ISK derived from a PLEX should not be able to be destroyed?
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom
Originally by: Dan O'Connor
...except that you buy the code FOR the PLEX with cash, not the PLEX itself.
It doesn't matter. The fact is that cash could be spent with the expectation that it would be applied toward my game time or whatever other reason I decide to use it for. That item, should it be destroyed or stolen is still an item that could be purchased for cash.
If I pay CASH for something, CCP should NOT introduce a game mechanic that allows theft or financial damage to me. It's that simple. Stealing a PLEX paid for with cash is on par with character theft IMHO. It's the same because in both cases CASH was spent on creating/maintaining my character. Character theft is illegal. So should PLEX theft be.
ANY ITEM anyone legally purchase in game should not be exposed to this game mechanic, no matter if there is a code or not.
It's this simple, CCP is ADDING to the current Plex mechanics. The existing ones work 100% and your plex is fine unless you're dumb as **** and get scammed. Otherwise there is no reason for you to need to take advantage of thesee ADDED game mechanics.
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Melkath Bandrom
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Elsymir Crystalblood
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what you're paying for before paying for it.
Personally I don't use PLEX to maintain my characters. I pay once a year in cash so I won't be pulling around the PLEX in my cargohold. It's just the issue that no matter how you chose to look at it and no matter what kind of legal argument anyone can pose, To pay extra for something and to have it stolen/destroyed is wrong. CCP knows this i should hope.
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Sneaky Neko
Echoes of Reality
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:07:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Sneaky Neko on 09/07/2010 18:07:59 Well, if you think PLEXs are so valuable lets make a deal. I'll give you a very valuable PLEX worth REAL LIFE MONEY in return for a measly freighter BPO.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zofe Stormcaller The first time someone gets ganked with a plex in the cargohold I want to see the killmail, and the impending forum thread of RRRRAAAAGGE and QQ.
I want to buy the actual tears on ebay.
PLex-o-gheddon.
The dark harsh sandbox just got darker and harsher. This is clearly a signature. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:14:00 -
[40]
Quote: Are you crazy? Do you know how many people will emoragequit when they're ganked with PLEX in their cargo?
Maybe we're a little crazy, yes, but we truly think the benefits outweigh the risks here. One of them is to combat the perception that PLEX is a more valuable item than others in the game which, of course, it isn't (anyone who has lost a titan/carrier/T2 BS/etc knows this full well). Among the risks of course is that people will start losing PLEXs' en masse and cancel their subscriptions. We will be monitoring that extremely closely as well as all other aspects of PLEX trade/usage patterns. Remember, we're not forcing anyone to undock with PLEX, in fact we're making things a little bit safer (if people choose to use the option) by allowing redeeming of PLEX to all stations instead of just NPC stations. The choice and risk is always at the discretion of the player, just like it should be.
TL;DR
if you undock with a plex, make sure your in a tanked ship.
Also if you lose a plex in a gank, too bad, people have lost more isk in a gank than your pittiful little gank.
See reference Shrike Goonswarm Pandemic Legion Morsus Mihi The great Heist The E-bank Theft Ginger Magician Any freighter ganked in Uedama.
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Aldor Fisax
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:15:00 -
[41]
The problem here is that a few people feel that you own a PLEX when you buy it. That is not true. You rarely own anything on your computer except the hardware. If you notice, EULA's are End User Licensing Agreements, not End User Ownership Agreements. While courts continue to debate if you own or license software, at present, you license it. As such, anything you purchase is generally partially-owned by the originating company, and your license can be terminated by clauses stipulated in the agreement.
Now, the other thing people have a problem with is that if a player pwns you and destroys or loots your PLEX, you feel that you just got robbed of real money. However, in general, you're paying $X dollars per month. You spend most of your time in game, (which is what you have purchased) missioning and lets say you earn 100 million isk over that month time. Now, you use that isk to buy a BS and fittings. Effectively, you've turned $X into 1 BS with fittings. Now you're BS gets pwned. Why is this not stealing of real money. Just because it took more steps shouldn't change the equation. (I don't think it is just to clarify).
Further, people get perma-banned in games all the time. You played said game for several months paying dollars per month, only to have your account permanently banned (and possibly destroyed). In effect, all the money you put into the game has been lost. And this doesn't even to begin to talk about games that use a micro-payment system, where the items and such you buy with micro-payments can be lost.
So basically, the tl;dr version is it is not stealing or destruction of real property, and it's withing CCP's rights (and has been done by other games) to allow this.
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Ori Blake
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:16:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Sakrak I think this topic just shows that Eve players will whine about anything. CCP is giving another option, that is it. You still have your 100% safe way of doing things. To those that think a PLEX = Real Money. if a PLEX is money, what happens when you sell it for ISK? Does ISK = money then? If a = b, and b = c, then a = c. Does this mean that any item that is bought with ISK derived from a PLEX should not be able to be destroyed?
They shouldn't be destroyed or looted because:
1. They are the only item in the game you DIRECTLY pay for in real money. 2. They are the only item in the game that DIRECTLY gives subscription time.
All other items are one stage off from that, and I think too many people here are looking at it from the PLEX buyer side. That side I can't see them needing to transport it at all as opposed to redeeming it on the spot. To them it is just ISK, but to the sellers, it's a real money cost, and a direct one. For them if they lose it its a direct loss in real world assets to replace it. For a buyer they just grind more missions.
It's moot though I think because no sane seller is going to transport them, and CCP introduces yet another "feature" it makes little sense to use.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom
Originally by: Elsymir Crystalblood
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what you're paying for before paying for it.
Personally I don't use PLEX to maintain my characters. I pay once a year in cash so I won't be pulling around the PLEX in my cargohold. It's just the issue that no matter how you chose to look at it and no matter what kind of legal argument anyone can pose, To pay extra for something and to have it stolen/destroyed is wrong. CCP knows this i should hope.
Deos the fact that your argument is illogical make any difference? Say I sell plex and immediately buy a T3 and said T3 done get blowed up - is that wrong too? Your arguments says that it is - yet seemingly you don't rage about that.
Try to understand something first before you come out an whine about it. Especially something that you say will not affect you.
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Maria Yumeno
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:20:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Maria Yumeno on 09/07/2010 18:25:27
Originally by: Lance Fighter i dont get it. People lose ships worth 300m very often.
Remind me again why people rage over plex?
(note, all numbers pulled more or less out of my ass, assuming about 100m isk = 5 dollars. )
I edited the quote, hope it's ok.
It's different 'cos its the only in game item that you can directly relate to rl money (in that you buy a plex you save $15)
Plexs become destroyable, stupid people will get them destroyed reducing circulation, increasing plex value and suddenly that 1bn isk tengu is worth 1mo game time.
The only thing that keeps them 'just like any other item' at the moment is the fact that they can't be destroyed.
Edit for clarification
This issue shouldn't affect single players, it's not a matter of o gods no....i lost my plex!! wtf!!! that is real money! It's more an issue of a real amount of dollars was put into the system and now ccp are able to remove that amount of real dollars from the system. I'm not going to start comparing it with real life financail systems for fears of getting falmed, however seeing as the plex market requires a real money investment it is the most subtible thing that we could use to make comparisons.
TLDR; CCP destory one plex, they get a free $15 with no obligations
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:20:00 -
[45]
lets not forget that plex is till 100% secure and cannot be taken from you if you choose it not to be. 100% secure.
You literally have to give it to someone. This is clearly a signature. |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:26:00 -
[46]
using plexes to trade is infact what CCP wishes to accomplish with this, so that more people buy them so they can buy their nice fancy faction CNR, carrier, or other carebearmobile.
there has to be a system of checks and balances. if it is now easier to trade plexes for items, it must now be harder to trade the plex itself. the rule change works on a law of averages -- there are people out there who are dumb as a brick (is that you by chance?) who WILL lose their PLEX in a gank because they lack foresight. CCP is infact counting on this, because it allows them to create free revenue. They gain your money, while giving you nothing.
If you are stupid enough to let that happen to you, then you deserve it. Really, you do. Welcome to EVE i actually fly amarr |
Bankoff DarkFusion
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:26:00 -
[47]
Stupid stupid idea. Players who join after this rule change will not know the history and will blithely take off with plex in hold to get the best price. Cheating CCP in the aftermath of a plex loss will be relatively easy Credit card companies will reverse charges in many cases since the amount is small if customer is convincing. Fraud investigation? Not likely given the amount. What's the point of this change? Not enough tears in the game now? Not driving away the new players fast enough?
I'm not stupid enough to undock with plex in hold and don't need this change anyway.
Argue with this any way you want, trot out the dark universe excuse again. Doesn't matter. Sure, nobody has to undock with a plex but that's not the point. CCP has just announced open season on player cash. When you announce to people that you plan to take their money and give them nothing for it, you are being about as stupid as a company can be.
Fine distinctions between time code and plex won't help in this case. Perception is everything. People will not accept this no matter how much sense it makes from the perspective of the game.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:33:00 -
[48]
I read that last post and the potential for profit will be, astronomical to say the least.
You could make a kings ransom in a covert ops ship. This is clearly a signature. |
Melkath Bandrom
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:33:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Riedle
Deos the fact that your argument is illogical make any difference? Say I sell plex and immediately buy a T3 and said T3 done get blowed up - is that wrong too? Your arguments says that it is - yet seemingly you don't rage about that.
Try to understand something first before you come out an whine about it. Especially something that you say will not affect you.
No You are expounding on my original argument and putting hypotheticals on a specific situation. As Ori Blake said, Everything else is a one off. Top level only concerns me.
Once the plex is redeemed, it is gone. Whatever else happens with the proceeds ,whether its isk profit from sale or a 30 day player extension, it is susceptible to the accepted game mechanics. That doesn't bother me. I don't have a single problem with losing a 300M isk ship should I sell a plex. It's the fact that having the CASH paid for plex stolen it before redeeming/selling it. THATS what I have a problem with. whatever is done AFTER I get my CASH value from it matters not to me
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:38:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom
Originally by: Riedle
Deos the fact that your argument is illogical make any difference? Say I sell plex and immediately buy a T3 and said T3 done get blowed up - is that wrong too? Your arguments says that it is - yet seemingly you don't rage about that.
Try to understand something first before you come out an whine about it. Especially something that you say will not affect you.
No You are expounding on my original argument and putting hypotheticals on a specific situation. As Ori Blake said, Everything else is a one off. Top level only concerns me.
Once the plex is redeemed, it is gone. Whatever else happens with the proceeds ,whether its isk profit from sale or a 30 day player extension, it is susceptible to the accepted game mechanics. That doesn't bother me. I don't have a single problem with losing a 300M isk ship should I sell a plex. It's the fact that having the CASH paid for plex stolen it before redeeming/selling it. THATS what I have a problem with. whatever is done AFTER I get my CASH value from it matters not to me
But the plex is an ingame item just like the ship. 300 million isk in a raven or in a plex is the same exact value. The format they are in-game matters not. Engage the left side of your brain.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Riedle
Originally by: Melkath Bandrom
Originally by: Riedle
Deos the fact that your argument is illogical make any difference? Say I sell plex and immediately buy a T3 and said T3 done get blowed up - is that wrong too? Your arguments says that it is - yet seemingly you don't rage about that.
Try to understand something first before you come out an whine about it. Especially something that you say will not affect you.
No You are expounding on my original argument and putting hypotheticals on a specific situation. As Ori Blake said, Everything else is a one off. Top level only concerns me.
Once the plex is redeemed, it is gone. Whatever else happens with the proceeds ,whether its isk profit from sale or a 30 day player extension, it is susceptible to the accepted game mechanics. That doesn't bother me. I don't have a single problem with losing a 300M isk ship should I sell a plex. It's the fact that having the CASH paid for plex stolen it before redeeming/selling it. THATS what I have a problem with. whatever is done AFTER I get my CASH value from it matters not to me
But the plex is an ingame item just like the ship. 300 million isk in a raven or in a plex is the same exact value. The format they are in-game matters not. Engage the left side of your brain.
Again I bring up the point that its still 100% secure. This is clearly a signature. |
Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:50:00 -
[52]
We all knew some people would cry. CCP knew.
They will probably not take that back because you just leave with a PLEX on cargo if you want to.
All I can see is that they might give you a warning message about leaving station with it. Get over it.
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Aldor Fisax
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:55:00 -
[53]
Let us change the word PLEX to CNR for sake of argument. So CCP allows you to buy a fully T2 fitted CNR for $X. You're like sweet, and do it, fly out of the station and it gets WTF PWNED right away. Are you going to say you just got robbed?
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Melkath Bandrom
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Riedle \
But the plex is an ingame item just like the ship. 300 million isk in a raven or in a plex is the same exact value. The format they are in-game matters not. Engage the left side of your brain.
It's the RL money spent on the PLEX. In-Game format means EVERYTHING! I can use 300M isk spent in ingame, that doesnt bother me. It's losing the 300m that I basically spent RL cash on thats the issue.
If I buy a plex for cash and sell it in game for 300M isk, buy a ship and get it blowed up, thats not a problem to me. I spent the money and got the proceeds and spent them. Whatever happens after that is GAME ON!. That dont bother me a bit.
When i spend cash and do NOT see the proceeds from that cash purchase, I tend to have an issue.
If you can't understand that then i dont know what else to tell you. Thats the simplest I can make it.
Isk earned INGAME through mining and such does NOT hold the same value to me as ISK I spent cash on and recieved through plex sales.
I could make a TRILLION isk in game with mining/PVE/Market or whatever and that isk is only worth $15 to me, as I only spend $15 a month membership. But if I spend $40 on a 2 month plex, lose one or both of them though theft or destruction before getting my value from them, Thats 600M isk that is worth RL $40 to me. It's a different value dynamic on ingame isk VS purchased isk.
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Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:01:00 -
[55]
If you decide to leave station with a PLEX you are gambling in a game. You can still use it safely if you will.
If you go to a casino and put your money on a game, you might lose it.
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Aldor Fisax
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:02:00 -
[56]
I think Barkaial makes a good point. But further, you argue as if you didn't get your value. You already got what you paid for. They gave you your PLEX. What happens after that is subject to the EULA and T&A just like every other item in game. Again, I postulate that if the PLEX was instead a CNR that you were paying for (real $) and it got blown up right away, would you still be mad?
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Fikreta
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:02:00 -
[57]
What's the big deal? So many ships bought for rl money via GTC trades are being destroyed every day. 300 mil ISK is 300 mil ISK, it doesn't really matter where you throw it - to PLEX, ship or whatever.
GJ CCP
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War Kitten
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:03:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ori Blake
I agree its not real world theft due to EULA and licensing, but it's a generally stupid decision to add a feature that gives absolutely no benefit to an item you pay real money for while adding a ton of risk if you use the feature. Thankfully in this case you can just not transport them, so the end result wont be that harmful. But I have to ask why CCP cares so much about this when they could be fixing stuff that matters.
Just because you fail to see the benefit added does not make it a stupid decision.
And seriously, you think the people that made this decision have anything to do with fixing stuff? Yeah, I wish accounting and marketing and upper level management were working on bugs in our computer system too. Because THAT would help...
"Here's your sign." - Bill Engvall |
Melkath Bandrom
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:04:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Again I bring up the point that its still 100% secure.
I don't think it is, why would they allow PLEX to drop if it were secure? I'm betting whoever picks it up can redeem/sell it as any other loot. It may be secure in that they wont get my personal or financial RL info, but nothing else
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:06:00 -
[60]
YOU GUYS DO KNOW THAT YOU CAN APPLY A PLEX FROM ANYWHERE IN THE GALAXY AS LONG AS IT IS IN ANY OF YOUR STATION HANGARS, RIGHT ?!? AND THAT YOU CAN REDEEM A FRESHLY CASH-PURCHASED PLEX TO ANY STATION AT ANY TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE TO REDEEM IT WHERE YOU ARE NOW ?!? Or that you can also sell it to or buy it from somebody else anywhere in the galaxy as long as you use a PRIVATE (as opposed to public) contract ?!?
If you're reckless enough to move your PLEX around ESPECIALLY when there's very little need to do so, you're also accepting the possibility of a loss. The only people that NEED to move a PLEX are inter-station market traders, and for them losing a PLEX is no better nor worse than losing any other item worth about 300 mil ISK at this time.
PLEXes might be the closest thing to RL cash in EVE, but they're still just another in-game item, and should receive no special treatment. Also, more PLEX destroyed = more potential cash in the future for CCP. And that is a GOOD thing for all of us.
TL;DR : this change is made out of the letters W, I and N.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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