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Ivorr Bigun
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:11:00 -
[91]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
So, we've locked in that you have to be doing something for 2-3 minutes per planet. If not the clickfest that is spending 2-3 minutes per planet restarting extractors, what would you prefer they make you do for those 2 or 3 minutes per planet that would be less tedious?
Does this make me dense? I sure don't think so, but maybe I guess.
ok maybe dense was a little strong my bad
I guess my main point out of this is that with the current implementation i believe CCP have played straight into the macroers hands without 'fixing' it so regular players can pull pretty much the same income.
I would favor a timer of some sort - similar to activating a cyno or /shudder a mining laser: no more clicking but you are at least required to wait the time out before moving on to the next planet. This is more in keeping with traditional "watching a movie while i do it" eve industry.
Originally by: CCP Shadow bodily fluid
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Helgur
Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:48:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun
I would favor a timer of some sort - similar to activating a cyno or /shudder a mining laser: no more clicking but you are at least required to wait the time out before moving on to the next planet. This is more in keeping with traditional "watching a movie while i do it" eve industry.
Thats a pretty good idea actually
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:07:00 -
[93]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Let's say, for the sake of argument...
Okay, we've covered the extremes. So, where is the happy medium?
...
So, we've locked in that you have to be doing something for 2-3 minutes per planet. If not the clickfest that is spending 2-3 minutes per planet restarting extractors, what would you prefer they make you do for those 2 or 3 minutes per planet that would be less tedious?
A happy medium ...
My rational: Continuous attention should not be necessary, but more attention should provide the best returns.
I suggest extractors should provide diminishing returns if not attended/re-surveyed.
It could easily use the current bands. When extactors are started, they extract at the maximum rate for 30 mins, then drop to the 5 hour rate, the 23 hour rate, and finally the lowest rate, before being mined out and halting.
A player can optionally resurvey at any interval they find acceptable. Those that don't mind 'working it' can still resurvey every 30 minutes or so, others every day or every few days.
The worst of clickfest is avoided, but working is rewarded.
It is tedious because there is no thought required for the clicking. The attention/resurvey could be made less tedious by having something requiring a little thought, a minor decision. Perhaps a slider or cross-hair that needs to be re-centred. Some thing like that would also make it resistant to macros.
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Olleybear
I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:16:00 -
[94]
Well, all of the arguments are moot. I read the CSM minutes and CCP agrees that the clickfest has to go. They do however want the timesink to continue.
Quote from CSM Minutes:
"In the immediate future, CCP plans to improve the player control, move away from the annoying click-fest, and enable personalization upgrades and progressing pins over time."
Get the CSM minutes here.
The relevant text is near the middle of the minutes.
I have hope for PI. If the interaction is something enjoyable, the way scanning for anomalies with probes is enjoyable, then I for one will head back down the PI hole and have fun. I believe others will to.
Turns out CCP agrees that PI currently is an annoying click-fest. \o/ I lub you guys!!!!
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Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
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Posted - 2010.07.14 21:34:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari It is tedious because there is no thought required for the clicking. The attention/resurvey could be made less tedious by having something requiring a little thought, a minor decision. Perhaps a slider or cross-hair that needs to be re-centred. Some thing like that would also make it resistant to macros.
why do I get an 'oil imperium' reminiscence?
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DeepFear5
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Posted - 2010.07.14 23:19:00 -
[96]
I agree with OP, this game have way too many things that needs to be fixed by CCP if they want to stay in business. 1. I am tired of flying the ship by clicking all the time. There have to be other ways to fly yr ship besides clicking. 2. Most new players find that making ISK to fund purchases of better ships, DOES NOT realistically represent ISK/hour earning rate for majority of us. ( Doing L4s gets very repetitive in about 2 month.) 3. Those who say that you can make lots of ISK in null sec, must keep in mind that you have to defend that space as well, and that cuts into ISK/hour. 4. My opinion - Longer that it takes to make ISK, more money CCP will make in subscriptions. 5. With an introduction of PI, we can easily see that CCP is simply ignoring all the old problems and adding more new ones.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.15 15:23:00 -
[97]
CCP: Here's what is intended to be a low-income, low-entry barrier crafting system. Have fun! Players: WHAT THE **** CCP? I HAVE TO RUN 40 PLANETS TO MAKE ANY REAL MONEY FROM THIS, DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH CLICKING THAT IS?
The major problem here isn't that PI necessarily requires too much clicking, it's that people are trying, through pure volume, to turn it into the big earner that it isn't really intended to be. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Lemming King
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:51:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Lemming King on 15/07/2010 18:55:28
Originally by: Ari Chu Why are people still crying about an activity which no one is forcing them to do? Crying AND trying to do the activity with 15 bazillion alts? What the hell is wrong with people's brains that leads them to the conclusion that if they perform the task at 15 times the intensity that the next person does, that the developers will somehow make the task simpler to please them?
The only argument which one could make that leads to the logical conclusion that CCP should make PI easier - is if it's level of difficulty actually did lead to a dramatic reduction in people using it. As long as you idiots want to use your 45 accounts mining Planets, then from a database perspective - there are PLENTY of players using PI, and therefore the system is widely used.
TLDR: duh, if CCP feels that enough colonies are being run, there is no reason for them to make the system easier. So, if you actually want them to change it - quit doing PI.
Edit cuz I forgot to type before hitting post
I'd argue that the people complaining about it being a clickfest don't want PI made easier as you are suggesting, rather we would like it made harder. As in using the gray matter between the ears to make decisions, judgement calls, ect. Make it a think sink rather than a click sink. Amount of time spent now to maintain colonies is fine imo, just give me something other to do besides mindless clicking during that time.
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Lemming King
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:12:00 -
[99]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa Let's say, for the sake of argument, they got rid of the stupid half-hour, 5-hour, 23-hour, 96-hour extract time and just made all extracters perma-run at max output up to depletion point.
You set up your colony. You show up every couple of days to collect the stuff it produces.
Knowing that you can be dang productive with only a week or so of training, (CC Upgrade 4 and Interplanetary Consolidation 4), what do you suppose the profitability would be? Well, R&D agents take WAY more skills, plus standings, and those top out at what? 50 million a month.
If PI were perma-run, it would pay, I'd guess, a max of 5 million a month maybe.
Since you could easily fuel many POSes off a single account, POS fuel from PI would be... what? 1 million a month for a large?
Let's take it to the other extreme as others are claiming it is. "Try going into PVP wit your guns set to not auto repeat...." Okay. Let's say you had to start an extractor every 2 seconds to keep them all going.... 23x7 all you did was sit there and start extractors...
In this case, I assume profits would be far higher than mining. Maybe 20 million an hour. It would cost a couple hundred million to fuel a POS for a month.
Okay, we've covered the extremes. So, where is the happy medium?
A "restart all extractors" button that lets you restart an entire planet in 10 seconds? Restart all 5 or 6 planets in less than a minute... Seems pretty close to the 5 million ISK a month end of the profitability scale to me.
Restart all of a type? So, 30 seconds per planet 2-3 minutes for 5?
Or, restart one at a time. 10 seconds per exstractor, a couple minutes per planet... 10-15 mninutes for 5 planets?
Yeah, this seems about right to me. Short enough that a lot of people will do it, but not so short that everyone will do it.
So, we've locked in that you have to be doing something for 2-3 minutes per planet. If not the clickfest that is spending 2-3 minutes per planet restarting extractors, what would you prefer they make you do for those 2 or 3 minutes per planet that would be less tedious?
Does this make me dense? I sure don't think so, but maybe I guess.
I'm with you on all this. Give me something fun for 2-3 minutes per planet. Hell, I'll even click just as much as now if its fun. How about a game of space invaders for an extra 10% yield for beating a certian score? Anything but mindless clicking.
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Sinistradi
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Posted - 2010.07.16 01:26:00 -
[100]
keep the cycle times and resource extraction yield as is. allow the extractors to autorepeat but with a catch: implement a X% (6% maybe?) chance of extractor shutdown at the end of each cycle implement a skill that lowers the chance of extractor shutdown
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Toldain
Gallente Skyforger Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2010.07.16 15:13:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Helgur
PI is not worth it. I am not wasting several hours a day of my life clicking pixels. Sorry CCP.
You seem to be saying that the problem is that you are spending time doing something that you don't like doing.
However, there is clear evidence that it is supposed to take you some time, in an ongoing fashion, to keep extractors running.
For one, they "survey" button doesn't just give you results, it has a timer. Somebody did that on purpose. For another, upthread is a quotation from the CSM that quote CCP as saying the clickfest is going away, but not the time sink.
It takes four clicks to restart an extractor, and one click per planet. I have 8 extractors per planet, and 5 planets, one character. That's 165 clicks to reset everything. I run 24 hour cycles mostly, sometimes 5 hour, and rarely a 30-minute, to restart things.
I'm sure that I do more than 165 clicks when I run an anomaly. I'm sure I do more than 165 clicks when I'm gathering materials and manufacturing something.
Anybody who gets RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome from this has got some serious body mechanics issue, or a horribly bad mouse setup.
Really, it sounds like you are suffering from stress burnout - induced by committing yourself to doing something you didn't realize was going to be so time consuming, and has to be done EVERY SINGLE DAY. I think the people you should be talking to are your corpmates/CEO.
The "I'm going to do this all by my/our selves" thing is very prevalent in EVE. My corp has it too. I guess people get some satisfaction from it, but it doesn't make much sense to me. You'll be more efficient if you specialize, and then trade with other people.
---- http://toldaintalks.blogspot.com - Because reading me sure beats working!
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.07.16 16:20:00 -
[102]
I've been doing pi for a while now and the clickfest does get old atm am training a second char for pi plan on eventually having 3 2 extraction and produce p1 1 with just factorys to produce p2-4 but yeah I usually do 23 hour cycles and don't do them every day but eventually will have a ton of p1's by time I get to training up char that will do factory so could produce any item as needed
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Malcolm Roberts
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Posted - 2010.07.16 19:32:00 -
[103]
All of you against PI are absolutely right.
No one should do it. NO ONE.
I urge all of you to stop doing it and save your time for something more productive.
It's a dirty job, so I volunteer to do it. I will do that much for my fellow players.
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Svarty II
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.17 02:03:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Malcolm Roberts All of you against PI are absolutely right.
No one should do it. NO ONE.
I urge all of you to stop doing it and save your time for something more productive.
It's a dirty job, so I volunteer to do it. I will do that much for my fellow players.
It IS very very boring, though.
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Gordon Freemonkey
Caldari Hair-Trigger Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.18 06:49:00 -
[105]
So let me get this straight.. CCP makes PI so you can run 6 planets on one account. You can build p1-p4 materials per planet or on the same planet. Your complaining about trying to maximize profit(i.e. too much clicking taking away from scanning through the market)with a system that is semi-passive income and currently low income because the market is flooded?
I look at it as less time spent grinding for mats or less Isk wasted on POS fuels vs the time spent attaining those mats through other industrial means.
Ntm a lot of ppl are in decent sized corps. If you actually coordinated your PI properly... you'd be mimicking 8 accounts and 40 planets... but then wheres is the isk/hour gained from the automated 5 hour 23 hour or even 96 hour dep times doing your fuel farming for you? less time and money wasted fueling POS' and more time out killing your war dec.
You can always hit 96 hour dep and just pop out calc to do some light math and figure out how much your gonna make vs what you need... and if you still feel overwhelmed by this system thats almost completely automated then you present the math stipulating why it is so inefficient and a waste of time. I personally am going to keep using it comfortably because i trust the fact that CCP will not implement a system into its game without having already done all the math on possible setups.
It works... you just haven't figured out how CCP rigged it to work. Think about their trailer.... sandbox.. player interaction.. planetary interaction.. hmm if only players interacted instead of the "f u, i fly solo" bit.. who knows, but think about the bigger picture... not just your own account(s)
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Drevar
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Posted - 2010.07.18 11:50:00 -
[106]
I wonder if the design decision to allow 6 planets was too much to begin with? What if the limit had been 3? Say 1 at lvl 1, 2 at level 3, and 3 at level 5. You could then double the output rate on extractors; basically the drone fix (cut max # in half and double the hp/dmg).
It would lead to interesting logistics with the link and storage limits (especially in low/null sec), but then again, we want more of a think-sink rather than click-sink, right?
Drev
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TotensBurntCorpse
Minmatar Miners of Moria Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.18 15:27:00 -
[107]
So far I have found PI to be rather interesting. This however has declined as I get more of my alts doing it also. I have no problems with how the system is to work. I do have agony with the fact of reseting each extractor one by one, this is very very tedious. I have also found that bright colored planets, gas giants and ice planets are just painful to the eye to look at while doing PI on them. Suggestions: 1) can we not gang extractors ? simialar to ganging weapons on ships ? 2) can we not change the color of bright planets so I am not going blind trying to see white text on a white planet ?
Like thread poster I am disappointed in how PI works but not what it does. I think the non requirement for skills to do it makes it a viable game option for novice players as an entry to manufacturing and trading. But for ppl such as myself who enjoy the non pew pew aspects of eve ( and have for several years now ), this implementation makes moon mining appear positively sexy. TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty.
Dislikes Not much. |
qpod
Caldari Q-POD
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Posted - 2010.07.18 20:41:00 -
[108]
clickfest = heavens for the bots
maybe CCP's idea was to catch all bots? I cant imagine a sane human clicking those extractors for several hours a day, every day.
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Tarix Loken
Northstar Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.18 23:42:00 -
[109]
First rule of game design: a game should be fun not a tedium.
While PI is quite nice and fun overall, clicking a million times on those stupid extractors is not even with just 5 planets.
Seriously it would be a great improvement to control all extractors with the according command center if one wishes to. Why is it even called a "command center" in the first place if i cannot "command" anything with it?
As an option all you bejeweled fanboys can still happily click every single extractor if you feel the need for it.
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Pirokobo
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.19 03:53:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun Now somewhere along that logic chain you could add "profit becomes large enough to make players re-enter PI." This I concede as truth. However you are now talking about people who walked away. Their entry barrier is substantially higher so you are still at 4.
How?
Remember, people were doom and gloom about removing seeded shuttles but when trit hit 4 ISK everyone switched to Veldspar.
Everything in this game has its price. Especially effort.
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Valhallas
New Eden Robotics
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Posted - 2010.07.19 09:28:00 -
[111]
I posted this in another thread, but I think the idea has merit so i'm posting it here as well.
How about extractors CAN auto repeat, but become more dangerous and risky to operate the longer they are left unattended.
So double clicking on extractors is actually to maintain them, not start them up again.
So maybe after a week unattended there is maybe a 10% chance there will be a BP style 'rig explosion' on an extractor.
You can then choose to pay to clean up the mess. Or more likely, if you a USA based corp, just walk away from the whole mess, leaving toxic metals and chemicals scattered over a wide area. |
Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.07.19 10:05:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Valhallas
So maybe after a week unattended there is maybe a 10% chance there will be a BP style 'rig explosion' on an extractor.
You can then choose to pay to clean up the mess. Or more likely, if you a USA based corp, just walk away from the whole mess, leaving toxic metals and chemicals scattered over a wide area.
You seem to be concealing some pent up emotion. Show me on the doll where the bad folks form BRITISH Petroleum touched you.
Patri
I'll Roshambo you for that Titan |
Ghia Downrider
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Posted - 2010.07.19 17:18:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Ghia Downrider on 19/07/2010 17:18:42
Originally by: Ivorr Bigun
As a famous literary character once said "dont they teach logic in schools any more?"
Logic: 1.Players try PI. 2.Players largely quit PI. 3.Small numbers of players make large profits from high PI prices. 4.High PI prices drive up production of pretty much everything. 5.Players cant afford to buy anything. 6.players quit.
I hoped they'd teached it, you'd probably hadn't so much errors in your own logic chain
1) If there is ANYthing that can produce high profit with small afford, more and more people will start doing it, and so reduce the profit that can be made by lowering the prices. 2) If something so easy to produce is too expensive to be build, ppl start to build it theirselves instead of buying it
a chain from "ppl start PI" to "ppl quit, because everything is not affordable" simply is just one thing: nonsense
Yes, a clickfest of 15 Minutes per char is bothering, but still i think CCP should leave it the way it is. If there WAS something to restart all extractors at once, there were too many players doing PI
@OP: "mimimi I cannot restart nuffty-five alts on omgty-seven accounts in 2 Minutes, to earn wtfty billions ISK per hour!" ?? reread your post, and think about what you'd think about the game if 400000 ppl would do the same.
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Ghia Downrider
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Posted - 2010.07.19 17:43:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Tarix Loken First rule of game design: a game should be fun not a tedium.
While PI is quite nice and fun overall, clicking a million times on those stupid extractors is not even with just 5 planets.
lol, then eve is the wrong game for you. Eve is hard work, grinind all day, and ALWAYS trying to find a better profit then you already make.
whatever you do intense is boring. All day mining is boring, all day missions is boring, all day ratting is boring, all day clicking extractors is boring.
mix it, and it is fun.
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Merdaneth
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:16:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Ghia Downrider mix it, and it is fun.
Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.
The goals are there, the rules are there. The challenge is minimal and interaction appalling. As game design goes, PI sucks. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Rick Sheridan
Gallente Highland Corp.
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:12:00 -
[116]
Here is my 2 isks worth on this subject. I only have 3 of my 5 available planets set up right now. Yes it can be tedious work for 3 planets and I can only imagine the work when I am at full production. Especially when i set them on the 30 minute cycle. I personally do not want PI to be easier. Actually i would like to see more people leave PI all together. That will mean that someone like me, who will be committed to PI until the end, well I will make all the profits from the end products you buy on the market. Yes CCP should look at making some changes to keep PI working at tip top shape. My concerns with highlighting multiple extractors: Yes it will be easier to get them up and running again but I can just hear the tears from folks when they realize that sweet spot they were on has moved. Like mining, moon harvesting, blue print production and market trading PI is not for everyone. If you think you have it tough try PI in low sec only. Even with a blockade runner that will get your heart pumping for a bit. It will even make you wish for the good old click fest days.
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Merdaneth
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:46:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Rick Sheridan
I personally do not want PI to be easier. Actually i would like to see more people leave PI all together. That will mean that someone like me, who will be committed to PI until the end, well I will make all the profits from the end products you buy on the market.
Dude, its a game. I'm perfectly happy to see you (or anyone) say if that they like or enjoy the PI interaction. I haven't seen anyone enjoying the clickfest in itself. You are sounding like a rat pressing a lever for CCP to give you a treat, hoping only a few rats remain so you can get a bigger share of the treats.
If the major attraction of a mini-game design is getting rewarded with some virtual currency you can spend on other (fun) parts of the game, then I say something's wrong with the mini-game. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Ghia Downrider
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Posted - 2010.07.19 22:30:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Ghia Downrider on 19/07/2010 22:41:08
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Ghia Downrider mix it, and it is fun.
Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.
The goals are there, the rules are there. The challenge is minimal and interaction appalling. As game design goes, PI sucks.
to you. maybe. sad
some ppl "live" in Jita, doing trading all day, and love it. nice, if they want to let em. i BET those ppl say about pvp "it sucks" some ppl are sitting in a belt all day, watching some roids pop eventually, targetting the next, and start mining that one. and love it. nice too some ppl buy these minerals, bring it to a factory, and build ships of it. or ammunition, or whatever ppl need for pvp. and love it. nice some ppl carry cargo from planet a to planet b, over and over again. and love it. nice some ppl keep asking their agents for a few enemies to kill em by facerolling f1-f8. and love it. get the point? if there were'nt several different aspects of the game, it would suck. it's fun because you can do A LOT MORE then just pew pew. and love it.
to bad some ppl cannot tolerate flavors other than their own.
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Ghia Downrider
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Posted - 2010.07.19 23:02:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ginlene You guys are all babies.
erm... no. not really. sorry
Originally by: Ginlene
Even shooting takes time, how is clicking on targets and clicking on guns repeatedly for hours any different than doing it for extractors?
yes. the extractor doesnt shoot back :-)
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.20 03:51:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 20/07/2010 03:54:06
Originally by: Helgur I have subscribed to 3 accounts which I have trained 8 alts for P.I.
Originally by: Helgur It feels like I am wasting my time/life on something ridiculous.
Yup, it sounds like you're wasting your time/life to me too.
I do agree that PI isn't fun and that it should be. But using that many characters for it will probably be tedious no matter what, not to mention a waste of money and too many hours one's life.
Games are supposed to be fun. If you're not having fun, stop doing whatever is not fun.
Originally by: Alaylia Elow I'm seeing a common theme among those who complain about the click fest, and that's multi-accounts with dozens of planets. Sounds like a user generated problem.
Definitely this, although PI is boring even for me and my one character. Trying to do PI with a alt slave army trying to do everything yourself is a sure way to get burnt out very quickly. -----SIGNATURE-----
Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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