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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Johnny Gurkha
We Are Flaming Dragon
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Posted - 2010.07.14 10:48:00 -
[91]
a 29 page wall of text I'm not reading because I can sum it up in bullet points:
a) the game is broken b) ccp can't do anything because of a crappy console fps c) it will remain so for along time to come and theres not alot you can do about it
do i get a cookie? |
Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.14 11:38:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 14/07/2010 11:39:03 There's a beauty to this mess: - players keep playing eve -> eve remains profitable -> management stays the course -> players lose - players quit en masse -> eve gets into the negative -> eve gets shut down -> players lose
There's a chance that enough but not too many players quit to make management take notice, take the right actions AND get eve back on track. Pretty slim if you ask me. So, will eve go the way of 9 out of 10 MMOs?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.14 11:49:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Johnny Gurkha a 29 page wall of text I'm not reading because I can sum it up in bullet points:
a) the game is broken b) ccp can't do anything because of a crappy console fps c) it will remain so for along time to come and theres not alot you can do about it
do i get a cookie?
There's other things of significance in there, plus a few scattered gems of good news, but yeah, you've got the core of it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Smyrk
SRE Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:51:00 -
[94]
The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:09:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
Something has broken. Instead of the PDF it is returning a HTML page about the PDF. Because the URL ends in .pdf your browser is just passing it as is to the PDF viewer which is unable to display it.
I will try to find out what has happened...
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Rage Spear
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:20:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Rage Spear on 14/07/2010 16:22:04 Really embarrassing for CCP and depressing for the rest of us.
Hopefully this debacle will force CCP to realise that a relatively small effort from them to fix the really easy and frustrating problems would pay massive dividends in terms of community relations.
EDIT: Pulling the minutes off the website probably won't help
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:25:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
It better be identical :P By all means change the shiny stuff like logos, but not any contents :P
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Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:47:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu on 14/07/2010 16:47:30
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Smyrk The PDF link appears to be broken at the moment; it worked for me yesterday. Anyone else seeing a message like "File does not begin with %PDF-" trying to open it?
A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
I might be in need of a tinfoil hat, but just a note; The original version is safely on my disk and I will be comparing the two for any ninja edits.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: CCP Navigator A new version of the PDF should be uploaded. I have alerted the proper authorities and this should be fixed asap. Apologies for any delay.
What changed, if this is a new version?
Life In Low Sec |
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Rage Spear
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:51:00 -
[101]
Could you define "New Version" please? There were some pretty glaring spelling errors that I could understand you wanting to sort out.
Will there be a change-log and have the CSM been consulted about the changes?
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Virtuozzo
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:53:00 -
[102]
Original version, just in case they accidentally the original and didn't save a copy :P
Btw, it lacked logos and such :/ ≡v≡ once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business. Now all that's left, serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna. |
Jarnis McPieksu
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:55:00 -
[103]
I did a cursory comparison between what's downloadable now and what is saved on my 2nd PC and saw no difference, so it seems to be the same file.
:puts the tinfoil hat away:
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:03:00 -
[104]
Wow, the drama resulting form the latest CSM minutes is better than the game itself. It has all the needed features; intrigues, lack of trust, lies, damn lies, layoffs, incompetence, extortion, threats you name it.
CCP has certainly lost the ball when it comes to customer trust.
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TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:19:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu I did a cursory comparison between what's downloadable now and what is saved on my 2nd PC and saw no difference, so it seems to be the same file.
:puts the tinfoil hat away:
A quick diff shows 3 lines were changed and in each case it was to add to (or correct) the list of CCP who attended.
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
Cyndre Valryssian
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:57:00 -
[106]
Isn't it better to admit now that the CSM is a nice idea in theory but in actuality it really IS a marketing exercise to demonstrate engagement with the customer base to defuse tensions and encourage subscription retention? Ultimately CCP develop and run the game and so decisions will always reflect their interests, ambitions and vision. Players are no doubt heard from forum posts, feedback and petitions and it is unlikely CCP is not aware of what frustrates them as demonstrated in alot of the feedback from the meetings.
I'd rather see regular state of the game blogs from senior developers encompassing design vision and stated aims than continue to push the facade that is the CSM, a group that from voting figures doesn't even enjoy the full confidence and support of the player base.
The latest minutes just seem to confirm the obvious and the real influence is exercised by players and their choice over whether to subscribe or not. I for one continue to trust CCP to support their creation and unlike some companies (SOE **Cough cough**) they genuinely do seem to care about the game as more than a financial endevour.
Anyway just a thought after reading.
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Rhok Relztem
Caldari CGMA Synergist Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.07.14 22:58:00 -
[107]
After reading through the minutes (and some sections more than once), I'm left with mixed feelings about CCP, the actual effectiveness of the CSM, and the future of EVE in general.
I'm all for Incarna personally and have been anticipating it for a long time, but after reading the responses from the devs at the meeting, Incarna is not going to be anything like I (and probably many others) had envisioned and hoped for. Incarna is going to be nothing more than a piece of fluff that has literally no game impact and will be left floundering in a semi-finished state shortly after it is released. There will be no interaction with Dust players in the stations, no walking in your ships, and probably no walking on moons nor your PI complexes, etc. There will be no fighting or other activity other than pure socializing and playing mini games. The potential is there for Incarna to be an outstanding addition to the EVE universe, but I seriously doubt it will ever come close to that potential.
The winter expansion that is supposed to be all about fixes and polish is also going to include new character models which will force every EVE player to redo their avatars. This isn't just a shiny new feature or merely an upgrade, it is the precursor to Incarna since with Incarna, you will need full-bodied avatars and not just a head and shoulders pic. That in itself is a major undertaking and doesn't involve just graphics. So where is the time and manpower coming from for the 'fixes & polish' they say is going to be the focus of that winter expansion? I fully expect that there will be some, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that those fixes and polish won't include any of the major issues (i.e. FW, lowsec space, learning skills, bounty hunting & smuggling, lag, imbalances of weapons and ammo, useless ships, etc.).
18 months in the gaming world is a long, LONG time. There are a lot of games on the horizon, many anticipated by the same type of player that plays EVE. CCP claims that data doesn't support the assumption that polished content retains more players and sells more subs than does new features and additions. That is just ludicrous. How many games have failed due to poor maintenance and half-finished features? How many games have languished with a small player base due to broken promises of improvement and updated features while rolling out update after update of things the players care nothing about and fixing things that aren't broken (the new PLEX revision is a great example)? The data doesn't support it simply because there is no MMO developer with the gonads to attempt an entire expansion of nothing but fixes and polish. If CCP truly wants to commit to excellence as their new motto for the year states, then stall DUST 514 and Incarna for a period and commit the resources and manpower to fixing and polishing the basic EVE. My guess is that the media and the gamers would eat it up. CCP would be hailed as truly innovative and committed to excellence and I'd bet that the subs for EVE would go up as well as a higher interest in DUST 514 when it is released.
My gut feeling is that the devs and management are beginning to lose interest in EVE after all of these years. DUST 514 and WoD are becoming the focus and Incarna is just a way of placating the many players (whether a majority or a very vocal minority) who have been clamoring for it since the beginning. Many, if not most, of the devs no longer even play the game, they have lost touch with the players, CSM is nothing more than a figurehead of the players that really has no power to get anything done, and all of the major issues with the game are more or less ignored.
I'm currently only playing EVE. I happen to like most of the devs and the game is still, IMO, one of the best on the market today, but its future is beginning to worry me. I've played many MMOs and other genres in my gaming lifetime and have witnessed many go down this same path. I hope I'm wrong.
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.15 02:11:00 -
[108]
Second life in stations = Incarna
Ring a bell anyone
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.07.15 09:01:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 15/07/2010 09:07:40
Originally by: Cyndre Valryssian Isn't it better to admit now that the CSM is a nice idea in theory but in actuality it really IS a marketing exercise to demonstrate engagement with the customer base to defuse tensions and encourage subscription retention?
I disagree because very little more would be required for it to be more than just marketing: CCP committing some dev resources to CSM requests (as implied by "stakeholder" status). This must be reflected in CCPs resource planning. Even just 5% of the total dev resources would do wonders. I'm guestimating that would mean about half the resources of one scrum team. Seeing that many CSM requests are low hanging fruits, a lot could be done with that already.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.15 14:15:00 -
[110]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Wow CCP alt much?
Your excuses for CCP are absolutely pathetic
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.15 14:35:00 -
[111]
Originally by: JitaBum
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
Wow CCP alt much?
Your excuses for CCP are absolutely pathetic
hmmm..
how appropriate, you fight like a cow !
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.07.16 06:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.07.16 16:17:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Ban Doga Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
This seems to be the six dollar question. Is CSM going to give input on incarna and Dust? If not then it seems their input is not relevant. If CSM members are going to give input on incarna and dust, then they should make it clear it's just their own personal opinions and not claim its the views of the players as a whole. No players really know enough about these other games to discuss them or formulate opinions of how they should be developed.
-Cearain
Make fw occupancy pvp instead of pve: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906 |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:22:00 -
[114]
This to be fair has to be resolved CCP must invest in polishing game content for a time, personally I'm hopefull they will eventually get the message but we're already startinjg to loose long term players like flies we all know of them we've all played with them hell it might be an idea to start a forum and list all the people you know who have left the game due to frustration with this issue.
However I'd like to explain how the top level managers don't have a clue whats happening through my own experiences of corporate business, it goes something like this:
Staff/Low end managers: "GOD DAMNIT SOMETHINGS TERRIBLY WRONG HERE!"
Middle management at the board meetings: "As you can see we're doing exceptionally well in these areas here are some (Cherry picked) statistics showing our great success".
Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
Rinse repeat until company starts loosing money and low level workers get made redundant followed by asset stripping and eventual sale of the entity.
Descisions made of win
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Krans Hopeson
Hulkageddon Orphanage HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:31:00 -
[115]
Originally by: FlyingSpoonyBadger Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
This is probably true -- or would be if CCP wasn't a privately owned company owned by the execs. -- "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." |
FlyingSpoonyBadger
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Posted - 2010.07.16 23:42:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Krans Hopeson
Originally by: FlyingSpoonyBadger Execs: "Excellent work you've justified my position to the shareholders".
Shareholders "Are we still making money? Good".
This is probably true -- or would be if CCP wasn't a privately owned company owned by the execs.
Board members are always incentivised by share options its a way to actually try and force them to do well (By linking their own personal economic gain through company growth, this also explains a lot behind why CEO's want immediate growth as they're generally only with a company for a limited period before they cash in), either way however someone is making the cash and basing their descisions on what middle management (Or whoever is pulling the figures out of their hat at the time) are reporting. Problem is the middle management barrier which is generally based upon the fact that no one wants to say "We need to improve in areas X & Z" because that means either a solid questioning on why there is a problem in the firstplace or an increased workload whilst the changes are being made and hell who wants that eh?
Anyhoo this is just a theory on my behalf so please don't take it seriously I could well be and probably am wrong most of the time
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Philderbeast
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Posted - 2010.07.17 10:27:00 -
[117]
well i just got around to reading these and i must say it's disappointing...
there was a lot of wait 18months fr bug fixes, and no real commitments to fix the issues.
I hope that the CSM will be able to post the list of issues in the backlog publicly will be good to see whats going on and be able to see its progress to being delivered.
but my biggest disappointment is that CCP cant spare a small team of devs to work on the polish of the game, I'm sure even a team of 3 - 5 could make a huge impact working on the little things.... surely they can spare that many to keep people subscribed to the game?
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Darveses
DAEDALUS X The Final Stand.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 12:25:00 -
[118]
Originally by: ThisIsNotMyAlt
how appropriate, you fight like a cow !
Monkey Island = Best Game ---
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.17 19:44:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ban Doga Edited by: Ban Doga on 16/07/2010 06:11:10 Now that CCP stated most of the resources are already committed for the next 18 months, what will the next CSM meetings be about?
It appears there is little sense in pitching more proposals since the reaction has to be "after Incarna/Dust".
This seems to be the six dollar question. Is CSM going to give input on incarna and Dust? If not then it seems their input is not relevant. If CSM members are going to give input on incarna and dust, then they should make it clear it's just their own personal opinions and not claim its the views of the players as a whole. No players really know enough about these other games to discuss them or formulate opinions of how they should be developed.
I suspect that the upper management of EVE would sell their daughters to a renegade Klan biker gang before they let the CSM get within 30 meters of anything to do with Dust. or Incarna.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
TeaDaze
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Posted - 2010.07.18 11:27:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Malcanis I suspect that the upper management of EVE would sell their daughters to a renegade Klan biker gang before they let the CSM get within 30 meters of anything to do with Dust. or Incarna.
According to CCP Zulu(park)'s dev blog CCP are including Incarna teams when talking about the number of dev's working on Eve.
Thus if Incarna is Eve then the CSM would in theory have the same input as they do with flying in space (I'll leave that open for a joke about the CSM having no real input ).
TeaDaze.net Blog | CSM Database |
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