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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 06:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Umega I'd say it takes blurred vision to not grasp that +1 turret and +1 low with +falloff trait over optimal = signficantly greater dps. Don't need eft.. just need basic common sense.
Yes because a gank fit glass cannon or no tackle med extender wolf that gets 50 dps(less without overheat) moar than a gank jag with full tackle or scram and ew mod and tank is 'significantly moar' dps in the context of a frigate gang. Do you even play the game or just troll like intigo? Oh wait..
Originally by: Umega Don't respond, idc.. why don't you actually prove a jag is on the same tier as a wolf in dps. Otherwise as far as I am concerned, my statement stands til you can prove your point.
Point has already been proven earlier in the thread. Still waiting for you to prove your point with useful fit comparisons that will benefit a gang instead of your place on the killmail by getting those few crucial tenths of a percent moar damage dealt but I think our dear readers already know the truth.
Originally by: Umega I'll just continue about my day and half expect you to spin your wheels and dodge the point,
I never dodge the point but you seem to be doing rather well at that skill set atm. Shall we name thee the Artful Dodger?
Originally by: Umega and rant about something else other than actually proving a jag is at the same lvl of dps as a wolf.
Never said the jag is at the same level of dps as the wolf. However the difference is so small(50 dps if both are gank fit) that its fairly irrelevant when adding in all the extra goodness a jag brings to the gang over a wolf.
And yes I replied after all when I had said I wouldn't if you stalled again but you are nearly as amusing as intigo so why not. Please continue to amuse me with your replies as this reply took me all of 5 minutes to compose because you make it so easy.
Originally by: Gedeon Starchaser Why choose?
They both require the same skills, for the most part. Buy them both, try them out, see which ones work in which situations.
For my part, Wolf is my assault ship of choice. 200mm AC II + Barrage + 2 x TE II + Wolf's falloff bonus make for some unhappy slicers and interceptors who think they can orbit you at 20km and snipe you or lock you down until their friends get there. Solid for missions and for pvp, not the best at anything, but lots of fun.
For solo against stupid or inexperianced pilots the wolf can be quite a suprise if they try to kite you. But then you run acoss the smart pilot and you die horribly. ffs I have killed wolfs in my shield tanked ab rifter before the gang could arrive.. The sad fact is that the wolf simply can't fit tackle along with a decent tank and still put out acceptable dps so it dies far too fast to put its negligable additional dps to any real use.
Jag >>>>> Wolf which is what the thread is about. But by all means buy a few wolfs and see for yourself as experience is always the best teacher.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.07.26 07:10:00 -
[32]
Its like.. you almost grasp'd the whole point of this arguement. But not quite..
When a gang has tackle.. is another point more valuable, or roughly 25% more dps from a ship? I don't see how the answer to that question isn't sinking in. I woulda figured for you, it would have by now.
Doesn't that 50 or so dps spread begin to add up when you sub out jags for wolves when adaquate tackle is already achieved? Dead is dead.. the faster it dead, the faster it ain't shooting back, trying to run, stalling for reinforcements, more time to move onto other targets.
There.. that should make it clear enough.
Yes.. I already stated the jag is more versitile, but ignoring the wolf's potential/ability and what it does bring as opposed to the jag is a pretty moronic, one minded, a rather poor and unstratagic thought process in approach.. imo.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 07:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Umega Its like.. you almost grasp'd the whole point of this arguement. But not quite..
When a gang has tackle.. is another point more valuable, or roughly 25% more dps from a ship? I don't see how the answer to that question isn't sinking in. I woulda figured for you, it would have by now.
Its like.. you almost grasp'd the whole point of this thread. But not quite..
Now if we were talking about a cruiser or higher gang where 25% moar dps might actually add up to something significant then your point of view makes sense. But in the context of a frigate gang that 25% is meaningless given the already low dps that 25% modifies when tackle and ew are paramount to maximise your ability to catch and kill targets. Frigs with two mids suck for frigate gangs and always will 25% extra damage or not.
Originally by: Umega Doesn't that 50 or so dps spread begin to add up when you sub out jags for wolves when adaquate tackle is already achieved?
There is no such thing as adaquate tackle in a frig gang. There will be a point where you all spread out and your shield tanked 'gank' wolf with no tackle just reduced your gangs chances of getting a kill. Nice to be selfish for that extra few spots closer to the top of the killmail for you it seems.
Originally by: Umega Dead is dead.. the faster it dead, the faster it ain't shooting back, trying to run, stalling for reinforcements, more time to move onto other targets.
There.. that should make it clear enough.
Yes dead is dead and unfortunately that ship you tackled in your wolf who instapopped you because you had no tank or simply missed the tackle because you well.. ummm had no tackle is now at his safe or docked up and lolling at you in local as your fc /facepalms for letting you talk him into bringing your zomg dps wolf along.
Originally by: Umega Yes.. I already stated the jag is more versitile, but ignoring the wolf's potential/ability and what it does bring as opposed to the jag is a pretty moronic, one minded, a rather poor and unstratagic thought process in approach.. imo.
You don't sub out jags for a wolf in a frigate gang ever. The wolf brings an additional 50 dps overheated to a gang over a jag and loses a web/ew mod, speed and tank. So to repeat a comparison from earlier in the thread you can either take a glass cannon or tackless shield tanked wolf that puts out 300 dps overheated or you can take a bog standard jag that puts out 250 dps overheated that has tank scram, web/ew and nano. What fc in his right mind would choose the wolf? What pilot in his right mind would choose the wolf?!
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.07.26 08:22:00 -
[34]
Zeba yes 50 dps isnt much. but also rember there frigates, 50 dps is alot bigger than it sounds. also the faster u kill it the faster u cant die. tank means nothing if u cant kill it Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 08:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Zeba yes 50 dps isnt much. but also rember there frigates, 50 dps is alot bigger than it sounds. also the faster u kill it the faster u cant die. tank means nothing if u cant kill it
Solo? Sure thing and there are a few situations were the wolf in an experienced pilots hands would be a good ship to use. But in the context of a gang where smaller stuff pretty much instapops to your gangs aggregate dps or the larger stuff that takes a bit longer to kill usually can't hit you due to trans and ew issues that 50 dps is meaningless. Especially when you have to give up precious ew and tackle mods to get it. So lets delve a little deeper into what 'in context' means in this debate.
Lets take your typical small gang roam and only use jags and wolves to keep it ontopic to this thread. Gang size is six pilots who all know each other well and can count on each other to not need hand holding past following the fc's target priorities.
Gang 1: 3 jaguars and 3 wolves both setup for gank and tank with some useful ew on the jags.
Roster: 1 jag with web scram. 1 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting. 3 wolves with no tackle or ew because we have adaquate tackle after all and extra ew is for sissies.
Aggregate dps: 1650
Gang 2: 6 jaguars setup for tank and gank with even moar useful ew mods.
Roster: 2 jag with web scram. 2 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting.
Aggregate dps: 1500
Does it really need to be any clearer?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:11:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Diomidis on 26/07/2010 09:12:08
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Zeba yes 50 dps isnt much. but also rember there frigates, 50 dps is alot bigger than it sounds. also the faster u kill it the faster u cant die. tank means nothing if u cant kill it
Yeah m8s, if the Wolf is such a success, the Retribution should be so much better: more range, more tracking better/equal dps, but it isn't the case.
It's rarely the case that a tackler has point/web on something and just waits for you to kill it in frig gangs, and also there are very few cases where 3x Jags cannot kill what 3x Wolfs can, but a lot of cases where any number of wolfs cannot catch what the same number of Jags could.
There is no "dmg dealer" concept in frig gangs - it's all about speed (both for catching up and fleeing) and tackle abilities. I could buy that theory if we were talking sniping frigs, but lolz...
I could also buy the "glass-cannon dmg dealer" concept if you were using a Daredevil as an example, but we are talking what? 390 overheated dps or something in realistic fit with Neutrons - which happens to be combined with one of the strongest tackling bonuses in the game.
-----
The same logic is behind bigger ships too: why bother with Zealots and Deimoses etc in CR HAC roams, when the Vaga can DPS nearly the same and tackle way better, while shield-buffer-tanking way better and even receive RR way better due to the resist / speed combo it packs?
Versatility wins, and unless we are talking sniping/blobing/great out-number or out-gang scenarios, the Vaga is always better than the Zealot.
Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:39:00 -
[37]
Always thought it would be interesting to fly in a gang with one wolf one jaguar (2 man gang).
Jag fits as much damage as possible, wolf fits as much tank as possible. People would (I think) generally assume the jag is tanky and less dps-y and thus not primary it. However, its not the case.....so the wolf could sit there and soak up damage while the jaguar has freedom to zip around shooting.
Obviously, not got round to trying it, as the number of times ive had a friend around with a jag/wolf ready to do whats needed when theres a 2 man af gang floating around........is zero :( ******** SIG :O ******** |
Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.07.26 17:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Zeba yes 50 dps isnt much. but also rember there frigates, 50 dps is alot bigger than it sounds. also the faster u kill it the faster u cant die. tank means nothing if u cant kill it
Solo? Sure thing and there are a few situations were the wolf in an experienced pilots hands would be a good ship to use. But in the context of a gang where smaller stuff pretty much instapops to your gangs aggregate dps or the larger stuff that takes a bit longer to kill usually can't hit you due to trans and ew issues that 50 dps is meaningless. Especially when you have to give up precious ew and tackle mods to get it. So lets delve a little deeper into what 'in context' means in this debate.
Lets take your typical small gang roam and only use jags and wolves to keep it ontopic to this thread. Gang size is six pilots who all know each other well and can count on each other to not need hand holding past following the fc's target priorities.
Gang 1: 3 jaguars and 3 wolves both setup for gank and tank with some useful ew on the jags.
Roster: 1 jag with web scram. 1 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting. 3 wolves with no tackle or ew because we have adaquate tackle after all and extra ew is for sissies.
Aggregate dps: 1650
Gang 2: 6 jaguars setup for tank and gank with even moar useful ew mods.
Roster: 2 jag with web scram. 2 jag with long point and td. 1 jag with scram and td. 1 jag with scram and dual extenders for baiting.
Aggregate dps: 1500
Does it really need to be any clearer?
Actually a MSE wolf can fit a slightly stronger tank than a MSE jag and still put out more dps, yes minus the point. Which makes things interesting when people might expect a glass cannon wolf and such isn't the case.
Also your numbers are false. A duo-MSE jag isn't going to put up 'comparable' numbers anymore. So your little scenario is a bit off and false in rallying to your point. The difference in DPS increases. And to add to all of this.. the fits I was trying to come up with for a jag to come as close as possibe to a wolf in dps had no neuts, when the wolves had neuts. Would you dare say that a neut isn't an important ew aspect then?
So in your scenario, dps difference is actually bigger. And is also 3 neuts on the 3/3 side vs zero neuts on the 6 jag side. Unless you want to give the jag neuts, making their fits more difficult in hitting closer to the wolves. Lets make sure everyone has all the info here so they can decide. Hmmm, yup.. you shoulda made it clearer.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Owen Drakkar
Terra Nostra
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Posted - 2010.07.26 18:21:00 -
[39]
I like this one.
[Jaguar, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come shoot at me, I live in Heimatar. Please? |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 19:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Umega Actually a MSE wolf can fit a slightly stronger tank than a MSE jag and still put out more dps, yes minus the point. Which makes things interesting when people might expect a glass cannon wolf and such isn't the case.
That typicaly misleading omni ehp total you are seeing is due to the wolf having a bit more hp in armor and hull. The jag has at least 700 more ehp in its primary shield buffer which is the one you rely on anyways as once you are past shields on both ships you die pretty quick even solo.
Originally by: Umega Also your numbers are false. A duo-MSE jag isn't going to put up 'comparable' numbers anymore. So your little scenario is a bit off and false in rallying to your point. The difference in DPS increases.
You are correct. I forgot that you have to 'downgrade' to 125mm on the dual extender so that ship will only get 200 dps overheated.
Revised numbers:
Gang 1: 1600 dps
Gang 2: 1450 dps
I mean really mate..
Originally by: Umega And to add to all of this.. the fits I was trying to come up with for a jag to come as close as possibe to a wolf in dps had no neuts, when the wolves had neuts. Would you dare say that a neut isn't an important ew aspect then?
For a solo boat then that small neut can literally turn the battle especialy with capless guns. In the context of the frigate gang I listed the stuff those 6 small neuts can effect in a reasonble time died nearly instantly and the stuff that doesn't die quick will snicker at 6 small neuts as it still dies horribly. Besides you need all of your cap to run the ew side of things so using a small neut would not be very smart as both ships are not exactly the kings of cap.
Originally by: Umega So in your scenario, dps difference is actually bigger. And is also 3 neuts on the 3/3 side vs zero neuts on the 6 jag side. Unless you want to give the jag neuts, making their fits more difficult in hitting closer to the wolves. Lets make sure everyone has all the info here so they can decide. Hmmm, yup.. you shoulda made it clearer.
Herp Derp you really don't play the game do you.(or at least with competant gang mates. you: hey gaiz lets go on a zomg super duper shield tanked wolf roam! gaiz: Yay!)
However I do salute your theory crafting and eft warrioring as you almost made it a good fight.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2010.07.26 20:55:00 -
[41]
AF need to be fixed in general. I'd still take a wolf over a jag any day however. You actually get to use all three of it's bonuses. Here's a few other reasons:
Jags with "only" a 50 DPS difference from a wolf are using lolrockets. Take those off or put on a small nuet/nos and the real DPS difference is 60-70+. (you can also put lolrockets on the wolf) It gets up to an 80 DPS difference overheated.
The DPS comparison again is only on paper. It drops as you go deeper into falloff. A wolf's falloff is much superior to a jaguar's.
The EHP superiority of a jag over a wolf can be anywhere from 2k - 5k EHP depending on how much DPS the jag wants to give up. I'd take my wolf against jags across that spectrum and consistently win.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 21:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf AF need to be fixed in general.
Agree. The rifters 7.5% per level tracking bonus would propel the wolf into a great arty boat which is what its really supposed to be using instead of ac.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf I'd still take a wolf over a jag any day however.
*glances at your name* I smell a bit of bias.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf You actually get to use all three of it's bonuses.
Not typically unless you are in a rare kiting duel with another kiting frigate in an even rarer 1 vs 1.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Jags with "only" a 50 DPS difference from a wolf are using lolrockets.
Fair point but rockets only suck vs other frigates and have no issues applying full damage to larger hulls. And even against frigates they do a large portion of their theoretical damage when the target is scrammed and webbed.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Take those off or put on a small nuet/nos and the real DPS difference is 60-70+.
You are now bickering over less than 10 dps and we have already covered why small neuts on a gang frigate are not optimal when it takes up fittings you could use for better dps or tank or even both.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf (you can also put lolrockets on the wolf) It gets up to an 80 DPS difference overheated.
But to do that you have to go to a lower tier of guns or gimp some other aspect of the ship which will actualy keep you right around the same overall dps. Besides you just stated that you prefer neuts so please stick to one line of reasoning.
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf The DPS comparison again is only on paper. It drops as you go deeper into falloff. A wolf's falloff is much superior to a jaguar's.
The EHP superiority of a jag over a wolf can be anywhere from 2k - 5k EHP depending on how much DPS the jag wants to give up. I'd take my wolf against jags across that spectrum and consistently win.
And yet this isn't about lolsolo 1 vs 1 even though I don't think your glass cannon wolf is going to kill my jag first. It's about what ship to use in a general sense. Also thank you for trying to use the wolfs falloff bonus as defence for its usefulness. If you want to actually use your scram and neut you are going to have to get into the 5k range of your target and be able to dictate the range to keep it there. So we have a ship with no web or nano because you gotta have 2x te and 2x gyro to make it worth boarding with only two mids that is also not very fast trying to dictate range on a ship with a web and scram which can get to its 1k optimal range and stay there. So now we have a dead wolf and a purring jaguar that didn't even get into armour.
The Wolf Sucks.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.07.26 22:57:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Anddeh McNab Wolf is one of my favourite ships to fly in fleets. I like to build them as glass cannons. Four 250mm arties in highs, AB and point in the midsm 2 gyrostabs and 2 nanofibers in the lows. You can go crazy and add some damage rigs if you want too. Helloooo 1k alpha on a frigate sized hull.
That's a little over half the alpha of a Thrasher. Congratulations. -- Sent from my douchePhone using Look@MEEEEE!
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 00:15:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Zarnak Wulf The DPS comparison again is only on paper. It drops as you go deeper into falloff. A wolf's falloff is much superior to a jaguar's.
The EHP superiority of a jag over a wolf can be anywhere from 2k - 5k EHP depending on how much DPS the jag wants to give up. I'd take my wolf against jags across that spectrum and consistently win.
And yet this isn't about lolsolo 1 vs 1 even though I don't think your glass cannon wolf is going to kill my jag first. It's about what ship to use in a general sense. Also thank you for trying to use the wolfs falloff bonus as defence for its usefulness. If you want to actually use your scram and neut you are going to have to get into the 5k range of your target and be able to dictate the range to keep it there. So we have a ship with no web or nano because you gotta have 2x te and 2x gyro to make it worth boarding with only two mids that is also not very fast trying to dictate range on a ship with a web and scram which can get to its 1k optimal range and stay there. So now we have a dead wolf and a purring jaguar that didn't even get into armour.
The Wolf Sucks.
Eh? You do understand how falloff increments work, right? The chane-to-hit formula and all that good stuff going from 90-50%? Ok jag or wolf jumps right on top of each, jag ain't getting out of wolf's falloff and they BOTH in optimal. Scenario B - They race towards each other, wolf is already pumping out higher dmg to begin with, and with greater accuracy and greater ranges. Please do present the facts to the public correctly, Zeba. And you want to make comments towards me if I really understand this game.
And do you really want to use a crutch of saying the jag can dictate range vs a wolf? Come on, seriously? If you're in optimal, chances are he/she is too. With the extra punch.. with a neut on your addmittedly craptacular cap.. so really, Zeba.
Wolf doesn't, in reality.. suck. The only thing sucking around here is your unability to acknowledge what is reality and misinforming the public to do it your way when other viable options exist for players to take and succeed with.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Srialia
Misfit Toys
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Posted - 2010.07.27 00:36:00 -
[45]
And people wonder why Israel and Palestine can't get along.
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Captain Nares
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Posted - 2010.07.27 01:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Srialia And people wonder why Israel and Palestine can't get along.
Coz the ability to speak, write, push buttons and use fork doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a stupid monkey
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 05:34:00 -
[47]
*grins in anticipation*
Originally by: Umega Eh? You do understand how falloff increments work, right? The chane-to-hit formula and all that good stuff going from 90-50%? Ok jag or wolf jumps right on top of each, jag ain't getting out of wolf's falloff and they BOTH in optimal.
Wolf dies horribly due to no tank or if med extender fit and the jag pilot is not a moron the jag simply warps out. Though even with a med extender the jag will completely dictate range and melt the wolf as it effortlessly tanks it due to the better primary buffer.
Originally by: Umega Scenario B - They race towards each other, wolf is already pumping out higher dmg to begin with, and with greater accuracy and greater ranges. Please do present the facts to the public correctly, Zeba. And you want to make comments towards me if I really understand this game.
Yes because the extremely slight extra damage the wolf does with its bit of extra falloff in the 2 seconds it takes the jag to get in optimal range and lock the wolf down with its web will somehow turn the tables.
Originally by: Umega And you really want to use a crutch of saying the jag can dictate range vs a wolf? Come on, seriously? If you're in optimal, chances are he/she is too. With the extra punch.. with a neut on your addmittedly craptacular cap.. so really, Zeba.
Again if you are glass cannon fit so you can do that zomg extra punch damage and actualy mount tackle even a rifter will pwn you. Every time. so really, mate..
Originally by: Umega Wolf doesn't, in reality.. suck.
Wolf does, in the fake reality of the game.. suck totally and completely.
Originally by: Umega The only thing sucking around here is your unability to acknowledge what is reality and misinforming the public to do it your way when other viable options exist for players to take and succeed with.
D-:
Let me repeat.
D-:
Gleefully awaiting your next suicide run.
Originally by: Captain Nares
Originally by: Srialia And people wonder why Israel and Palestine can't get along.
Coz the ability to speak, write, push buttons and use fork doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a stupid monkey
But the monkeys are so amusing with their antics. How can one resist to play with them?
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.07.27 05:52:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Ambaseter Doggy on 27/07/2010 05:52:53 zeba the with the incresed damage it means the wolf can kill the jag faster than than it can be poped. also with just 1 dcu 2 on mine i get 6k ehps and 180 damage. with a scram and nuet.Also i have a sar2 on it it can live. the wolf dosent suck. you just dont no how to use it Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 05:56:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy Edited by: Ambaseter Doggy on 27/07/2010 05:52:53 zeba the with the incresed damage it means the wolf can kill the jag faster than than it can be poped. also with just 1 dcu 2 on mine i get 6k ehps and 180 damage. with a scram and nuet.Also i have a sar2 on it it can live. the wolf dosent suck. you just dont no how to use it
wtb: Wolf that can simultaniously neut, scram and rep on a horribly gimped capacitor. D-:
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:08:00 -
[50]
i never said stable. Anyways lets just agree to disagree. The jag is awesome for solo and jags+wolfs make a powerful gang. Fair enough? Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:19:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy i never said stable. Anyways lets just agree to disagree. The jag is awesome for solo and jags+wolfs make a powerful gang. Fair enough?
Jag + Wolf is giving up 2 mid slots for the ew you will absolutely need to take down larger prey. Plus 2 jags also give you the option to succesfully bait someone nasty if the second jag is dual extender fit, not to mention the better primary buffer and speed you get with the jag over the wolf. And you want to ignore all that for +50 dps overheated? jag + wolf: 550 dps. 2x jag:500 dps. lulz..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:41:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Zeba *grins in anticipation*
Originally by: Umega Eh? You do understand how falloff increments work, right? The chane-to-hit formula and all that good stuff going from 90-50%? Ok jag or wolf jumps right on top of each, jag ain't getting out of wolf's falloff and they BOTH in optimal.
Wolf dies horribly due to no tank or if med extender fit and the jag pilot is not a moron the jag simply warps out. Though even with a med extender the jag will completely dictate range and melt the wolf as it effortlessly tanks it due to the better primary buffer.
Originally by: Umega Scenario B - They race towards each other, wolf is already pumping out higher dmg to begin with, and with greater accuracy and greater ranges. Please do present the facts to the public correctly, Zeba. And you want to make comments towards me if I really understand this game.
Yes because the extremely slight extra damage the wolf does with its bit of extra falloff in the 2 seconds it takes the jag to get in optimal range and lock the wolf down with its web will somehow turn the tables.
Originally by: Umega And you really want to use a crutch of saying the jag can dictate range vs a wolf? Come on, seriously? If you're in optimal, chances are he/she is too. With the extra punch.. with a neut on your addmittedly craptacular cap.. so really, Zeba.
Again if you are glass cannon fit so you can do that zomg extra punch damage and actualy mount tackle even a rifter will pwn you. Every time. so really, mate..
Originally by: Umega Wolf doesn't, in reality.. suck.
Wolf does, in the fake reality of the game.. suck totally and completely.
Originally by: Umega The only thing sucking around here is your unability to acknowledge what is reality and misinforming the public to do it your way when other viable options exist for players to take and succeed with.
D-:
Let me repeat.
D-:
Gleefully awaiting your next suicide run.
Originally by: Captain Nares
Originally by: Srialia And people wonder why Israel and Palestine can't get along.
Coz the ability to speak, write, push buttons and use fork doesn't automatically mean that you aren't a stupid monkey
But the monkeys are so amusing with their antics. How can one resist to play with them?
Wow. You're not even worth the time anymore to bother reading any post you make anymore, anywhere, ever. And I used to think you had a clue. But apparently your ego and need to be 100% right about everything has made you blind. Kinda already knew that, just had it confirmed.
But please do keep on twisting everything around to fit your whim, claim one thing, then dismiss it when it counter-acts an original point you have made. Anyone with reasonable intelligence and reading comprehensions that actually gives a damn reading this thread will see you have done it, and quite often. So, please continue. It's getting both sad and funny at the same time and I am amused.
You shoulda left that opening statement with 'if jag isn't moron, he warps out' But you had to go on your jag-homer tangant about how since its somehow relevent that if a jag dictates range, it can melt face over the wolf. Which.. really doesn't make any sense we already established the wolf owns overall range and chance-to-hit because of such. Way to go Zeba, not sure what you grinning about when you opened up with that one. Kudos.
Claim how quick something dies is important and happens frequently, yet dismiss the benefits of 50-80 dps on a ship with better chance-to-hit and better range. Really.. thats brilliant, Zeba. Contridict yourself much?
I wouldn't exactly classify 25-37% dps difference, Plus better chance-to-hit from longer range/better falloff 'slight extra damage'. But hey, whatever reality you want to invision, knock yourself out.
Rifter vs wolf.. you're really starting to look like a jag homer thats in farther than you first anticipated. But feel free to grin it up and respond with.. something.
---------------------------------------- -Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Umega Wow. You're not even worth the time anymore to bother reading any post you make anymore, anywhere, ever. And I used to think you had a clue. But apparently your ego and need to be 100% right about everything has made you blind. Kinda already knew that, just had it confirmed.
But please do keep on twisting everything around to fit your whim, claim one thing, then dismiss it when it counter-acts an original point you have made. Anyone with reasonable intelligence and reading comprehensions that actually gives a damn reading this thread will see you have done it, and quite often. So, please continue. It's getting both sad and funny at the same time and I am amused.
You shoulda left that opening statement with 'if jag isn't moron, he warps out' But you had to go on your jag-homer tangant about how since its somehow relevent that if a jag dictates range, it can melt face over the wolf. Which.. really doesn't make any sense we already established the wolf owns overall range and chance-to-hit because of such. Way to go Zeba, not sure what you grinning about when you opened up with that one. Kudos.
Claim how quick something dies is important and happens frequently, yet dismiss the benefits of 50-80 dps on a ship with better chance-to-hit and better range. Really.. thats brilliant, Zeba. Contridict yourself much?
I wouldn't exactly classify 25-37% dps difference, Plus better chance-to-hit from longer range/better falloff 'slight extra damage'. But hey, whatever reality you want to invision, knock yourself out.
Rifter vs wolf.. you're really starting to look like a jag homer thats in farther than you first anticipated. But feel free to grin it up and respond with.. something.
You simply must provide me the link to the rant generator you just used! It's totally first class.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Ambaseter Doggy
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:49:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Ambaseter Doggy on 27/07/2010 06:50:13 oh also jag is less specilized. wolf is all about guns. from the description "simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible" .wolf does more damage at longer range and is also better aginst larger ships . its a nich ship. jag is more versatile but cant get the same range and damage as a wolf. i am now done arguing. you guys can keep it up if youd like. Agent texas is a bit of a badass |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ambaseter Doggy from the description
All that really needs to be quoted and replied to tbh.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Fumitsugu
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:57:00 -
[56]
This topic is now about the Gallente assault frigs, the noble Ishkur and the stalwart Enyo (which I once heard described as "a slower, crappier, Wolf"
Discuss!
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 06:59:00 -
[57]
Ishkur and Enyo both suck. lol small blasters and kinetic damage plus unbonused easily killable drones..
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Dak Rattler
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Posted - 2010.07.27 07:07:00 -
[58]
It appears that Zeba is hell bent on defending this thread to the last of her fingers strength.
Regardless, here is my two cents. Ive flown both ships, quite frequently, and I must say I do like the Wolf much more than the Jaguar. Now I'm not going to spit out a bunch of nonsensical EFT facts at you, simply because I do not have them, I am talking from experience here.
REMEMBER, all of the below information is just from my personal experience, spew all the paper work at me you want, but get out on the battlefield this is what happened to me.
Jaguar pros: Tackle is amazing, additional med slots gives room for EW which I personally love, webifier comes in handy on many occasions. Extremely fast for an AF. Versatile low slots means you can pack for speed/damage/tracking, depending on your situation.
Jaguar cons: Do not like the tank, it is quite fragile, alot of shield HP, just not alot of EHP. Dps is lacking.
Wolf pros: Damage is outstanding, it is one of the major redeeming qualities (Have taken out anti-frig Carcels before through sheer dps). You can have a decent tank while still maintaining that level of dps.
Cons: Wolf is SLOW, my god that almost made me want to trash the ship altogether, however with a MWD it can get up to around a healthy 1.8km/s still slow but not god awful. Has to have a scram or else everything will get away from you.
Zeba, burn away, I am proud of what I said, I believe I gave both ships a fair chance, and each a fair amount of isk, but the wolf simply came out on top, and I have been flying it ever since.
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Deerin
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Posted - 2010.07.27 07:34:00 -
[59]
Minmatar t2 ships get bonus to EM and Thermal resistances. These are usually weak resistances on shields and this bonus results in a very nice resistance spectrum for minnie t2 ship shield resistances.
It is almost a shame to not to use them as shield tanks.....and you really can't use wolf as a shield tank.
If you are into killing amarr ships or mostly EM/Therm damage dealing ships, then wolf with the armor resistance bonuses to em/therm can really be awesome. But most damage in eve pvp is mixed.
Long story short. I like my ships to be sturdy, therefore I'd prefer jag over wolf.
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David Devant
Gallente CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.07.27 14:48:00 -
[60]
Hello. Just wondering if Zeba wants to give his theorycraft Jag pack a test vs our Wolfies. Mail me in game if so.
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