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CyberRaver
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
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Posted - 2010.07.25 22:04:00 -
[31]
Op was obviously not around when MWD fit ships ruled eve and were uncatchable with webs Scrambles are perfect the way they are L2p
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.07.25 22:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: el Sabor Nope, I think it adds a nice dynamic to the game. Makes PvP a little more complex.
...would you prefer to be hit witha 90% web?
Dynamic? Get within range, be pinned, wait for his friends to arrive, die? I would hardly call that dynamic, in fact its the exact opposite. With the ****ty mechanics that EVE offers for controlling range, I consider scramblers to be way out of line and just as bad as the old webs, which were fixed for a reason. á
I think CSM is a pretty cool guy. eh creates e-drama and doesnt afraid of anything. |
F15T0
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Posted - 2010.07.26 00:08:00 -
[33]
scrams not OP reely....... maybe teh activation deelay cud use removing... kinda busted wen u get outranging the ship wit scram but mwd still fails to turn on...
neds fixing
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.26 00:10:00 -
[34]
Edited by: The Djego on 26/07/2010 00:12:03
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: el Sabor Nope, I think it adds a nice dynamic to the game. Makes PvP a little more complex.
...would you prefer to be hit witha 90% web?
Dynamic? Get within range, be pinned, wait for his friends to arrive, die? I would hardly call that dynamic, in fact its the exact opposite. With the ****ty mechanics that EVE offers for controlling range, I consider scramblers to be way out of line and just as bad as the old webs, which were fixed for a reason.
I think you forget that the tackler back in the days had to survive a web range fight with his pray and if my memory serves me well, most of the time his mods ended in my cargo and everything the friends found was a wreck as they droped out of warp. Actualy killing things like 10km/s intis was a bit more tricky(in plated blaster ships) than dealing with suizide tacklers, but this might be just me.
Ofc this was back in the days where eve was less blobby, solo was more common and even if nano was the norm, close range was not the joke it is now for solo. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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n0thing
Gallente Executive Intervention The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.26 00:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Terrutder Edited by: Terrutder on 25/07/2010 21:07:24 Edited by: Terrutder on 25/07/2010 21:06:25
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: n0thing You do know that chance based disruptors will promote blobbing, right?
Atm, you need 1-2 ships to stop other ship. So, if its chance based, means the more ships you bring, the more points you get, the more chance we take the target down.
Now instead of roaming gangs of 5 ships and up to 50 ships, you will see roaming gangs of only 50 ships
Damnit.. I was saving that one for when someone else tried to defend his idea.
pff.. you can only d'oh...
and no it will not encourage blobing at least not more as it does atm. no one undocks without scram anyway...
atm its u blob or u dont do anything.. and if hes idea sucks then go and come up with better one.
I find it being good idea.
whatever makes eve less blobwar is good - obviously guys like you enjoy lagfest or what?
Better one is already in-game. And it gives blaster boats slight chance to catch something.
Oh and btw, to ensure my gang roam gets something to shoot at, oh hell yes I will blob in case of chance based scramming. And if not blob, how you like 10 dictors spamming bubbles all over system?
---
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Terrutder
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Posted - 2010.07.26 06:51:00 -
[36]
you still dont get it do you?
current system makes us blob or go home
that system would make us blob or go home... but with a little side effect, people might actually go and look for trouble knowing that they have slight chance to get away when target goes "omgomgomg im agroed, guise jump in"
and yes there would be more dictors and hictors which makes game more fun.
And I say again.. whatever idea helps eve get away from blobfck.. I support it 100%.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.26 06:54:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Terrutder And I say again.. whatever idea helps eve get away from blobfck.. I support it 100%.
Me too. But sadly that solution is not in this thread.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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n0thing
Gallente Executive Intervention The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Terrutder you still dont get it do you?
current system makes us blob or go home
that system would make us blob or go home... but with a little side effect, people might actually go and look for trouble knowing that they have slight chance to get away when target goes "omgomgomg im agroed, guise jump in"
and yes there would be more dictors and hictors which makes game more fun.
And I say again.. whatever idea helps eve get away from blobfck.. I support it 100%.
I do support it too, but that particular one wont bring any good.
Everyone will know that you have slight chance of getting out, means null-sec route gates will be even more spammed with bubbles, anchored and dictor/HICtor ones. Chokepoints will be alot more crowded, forcing roaming pilots to bring more buddies.
I can already see some null-entry system with 20-30 local daily and around 20 bubbles in space. ---
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Djakku
0utbreak Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:25:00 -
[39]
NERF MOTSU. BRING THEM TO POINT FOUR. This is not a signature. |
Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:38:00 -
[40]
With chance based tackle....if the chance is calculated per cycle (5 seconds for a 24k), then its unfeasible to kill a lot of larger ships using smaller ships (or even those of the same class)
E.G. even at 90% chance to warp jam per cycle, it means if the target ship can tank for 45s its statistically likely to survive.
So, lets say the average solo fit bc has 70k ehp and 600 dps.
That would mean it takes 117 seconds assuming perfect damage projection to kill another battlecruiser with the same ehp/dps stats. That means, even with a 90% chance to warp disrupt, you'd only have them tackled for 105 seconds of the 117 seconds it would take to fight. And it takes only a split second to warp. If they are aligned and hitting the warp button frequently, it means they have a 12s window throughout the fight during which they can escape.
However, there are other factors too. Scrams are range limited, add capacitor strain (I know in many of my active tanked ships I loose point from bad cap managment, if only breifly) and many solo pvp'ers use ecm drones and the chances of maintaining a point for the entire fight drop even lower. Remembering all the time that beign warp disrupted is a binary status. You can either warp, or you cannot, and if you can warp, you only need to be able to for a split second.
Watch some eve pvp videos, its very common for people to align to a object once they decide its time to leave, and hammer warp either hoping the tacklers loose points and/or they force them to loose points by cap/range control over them.
Another thing to consider is that those ehp stats are quite low really. I know my ehp fit bc's have more than 70k ehp, and most of those ehp fit bc's would be very very happy to be applying 600 dps.
So, even with such a high percentage chance to warp jam, it would be very difficult to near-impossible to solo with a single warp disruptor 2. This would mean fitting multiple warp disruptors, making viable solo pvp ships even more rare, and would leave the viable ones as either glass-cannon gankmobiles or armor tanks.
My final thought, is that the one other truely chance based thing I can think of in pvp is ecm, and look how much people like that.
i cant be bothered to thik about the arty boost it would imply. Gangs of pests alpha'ing bc's and bs's in my lowsec where solo once reigned? no thanks.
******** SIG :O ******** |
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Djakku
0utbreak Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:46:00 -
[41]
Just to add more complication to the mix... what is chance to scram was based on sig radius? =O MATHS IMPLOSION!!!!
Also, would a "chance based scramming" mechanic make my 6-point trimarked drake fit fotm? This is not a signature. |
Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:50:00 -
[42]
Different size warp disruptors? Intys get warp disrupt strength bonus? Lowslot mods to improve warp jam strength (think signal distortion amps)? Shadow serp scram prices go thru the roof? How would stabs effect chance based tackle? Do warp disruption points get a stacking penalty? Does heat increase warp disrupt strength?
******** SIG :O ******** |
Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:53:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Terrutder you still dont get it do you?
current system makes us blob or go home
that system would make us blob or go home... but with a little side effect, people might actually go and look for trouble knowing that they have slight chance to get away when target goes "omgomgomg im agroed, guise jump in"
and yes there would be more dictors and hictors which makes game more fun.
And I say again.. whatever idea helps eve get away from blobfck.. I support it 100%.
No
YOU don't get it
All YOUR suggestion does is make solo completely useless.
Soloing a single target requires more time to kill than if you blobed it, you have less tackle to keep it in place.
So your target has longer to live, meaning more chances for tackle to fail, a problem blobs wouldn't have
Quote: chance to get away when target goes "omgomgomg im agroed, guise jump in"
And what's to stop him from going, "omgomgomg I'm aggroed, spam warp away, lol his tackle failed I'm out"?
Nothing. What ever works FOR you, can work AGAINST you.
The differance is this would effectivly mean that there is very little chance for a SINGLE PERSON, AS IN SOLO, AS IN ALONE to hold down another person and kill it. AKA blobing becomes even more important ------------------------
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Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 09:56:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ctp Hawkeye on 26/07/2010 09:56:36
Originally by: Shade Millith stuff
3 posts up bro ******** SIG :O ******** |
Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:06:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ctp Hawkeye Edited by: Ctp Hawkeye on 26/07/2010 09:56:36
Originally by: Shade Millith stuff
3 posts up bro
I didn't even read the thread past what the post I was refering too.
It was to stupid to not reply to. ------------------------
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Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:29:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Ctp Hawkeye Edited by: Ctp Hawkeye on 26/07/2010 09:56:36
Originally by: Shade Millith stuff
3 posts up bro
I didn't even read the thread past what the post I was refering too.
It was to stupid to not reply to.
Can totally sympathise with that ******** SIG :O ******** |
Deerin
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:35:00 -
[47]
Chance based scram would disrupt the whole eve economy, which is based on ship decay. Much less ships will blow on this system, which will reduce the demand.
Back then before the scrams shut down mwd's, we had nano-craze. Everybody was fitting their ships for speed. Once past a certain speed in a larger ship, there was nothing that could hold you down without dying horribly.
Then the NerfHammer came in. Changes were made in various levels of game to prevent god-like speed tanking. MWD shutting scrams were part of this.
Honestly I'm happy with current state of scram. It allows more effective usage of med slots. It allows those 2 med slot ships to operate in pvp. 3 Med slot ships have chance for more utility. Back then pvp was about armor tanking. Now shield tank's are also used a lot.
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Ctp Hawkeye
Caldari TEAM REDEYE
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Posted - 2010.07.26 11:51:00 -
[48]
And you still have to make tradeoff's - what would you prefer:
24k for initially pointing people then hoping you can get a 10.8k heated scram on them?
24k for initial pointing and then a web that can be heated out to >16km with a tiny bit of faction love (20mil or so?) to help keep the 24k on?
Or 16km web range to slow them down, enabling you to then get a 10.8k heated scram on them for ultimate tackle?
You still have to make tradeoffs - most noticeably scrams are worse for catching people who dont want to fight (if they replace a 24k)
Also, the scram changes have made afterburners viable in pvp again. Now, its viable (if risky) to fit ab+9k on many ships of even quite large sizes.
Before the web/scram changes, if you had two mids, you'd almost invariably go mwd and 24k. If you had a 3rd mid : mwd, 24k, web. If you had 4, you'd either nano for fit the same as if you had 3 + some utility (2nd web, sebo, eccm, ewar) or start sheild tanking.
Now we can see more interesting variations, such as the emregence of dualprop on ships of various sizes (dramiels jaguars ishtars, etc etc) and also, I think more choice in tanking. Now 3 slot tackle, a.k.a the holy trinity of pvp, isnt needed all the time we have more options - ewar tanks, shield tanks, even better tackling capabilities. ******** SIG :O ******** |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.07.26 12:48:00 -
[49]
The scramble mechanic was sorely needed and could not have been left out of QR. Between higher speeds of frigates (when thrusting) and the weaker webs a MWD frigate would be nigh untouchable close in if scramblers didn't shut it down.
The question you must ask yourselves is: Did the game improve or not with the speed rebalancing in QR?
For me it is a resounding 'YES'. It opened up a ton of alternative fittings and made previously useless hulls worthwhile. Very much a case of the few being sacrificed for the many Scrambling is balanced in that it requires a very short range to be applied, so any ship using them subject themselves to all manner of nasty including being scrambled back.
If any sort of tweaking is needed, then it should be to the fitting requirements. Scramblers are very easy to fit compared to disruptors even though their power is arguably about the same.
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logeoff now
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Posted - 2010.07.26 12:58:00 -
[50]
well something has to change to make eve more solo / small gang pvp viable.
as we see that blobs work but servers cant handle that, its just ridiculous... and its boring too.
some say that eve pvp is more primitive and boring than basically any other mmo game - eve is good only on paper and chartsheets.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.26 15:35:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/07/2010 15:35:32
Originally by: logeoff now well something has to change to make eve more solo / small gang pvp viable.
Its pretty solo/small gang viable as it is, tbh. There's some things they could do to make it better for solo/small gang combat, but I think they have very little to do with the combat mechanics themselves and more to do with environmental changes - like changing sov to require lots of small gangs instead of one enormous gang.
Quote: some say that eve pvp is more primitive and boring than basically any other mmo game - eve is good only on paper and chartsheets.
Now that's just patently false. I don't find the mechanics of Eve pew pew PVP (as opposed to market/sov/whatever) any worse than any other MMO.
-Liang
Ed: And Sok, stop trolling. Scramblers are the only things that make shield tanks really viable. And they're nowhere near as powerful as webs were. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.07.26 15:47:00 -
[52]
I don't like scram shutting mwd either.
It just makes fighs so much rock paper scisors and you have no idea what you're against untill you see mwd shutdown. Only option is to fit rock+paper+scisors yourself too... which means you fit AB+Scram+Web.
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n0thing
Gallente Executive Intervention The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.26 16:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jekyl Eraser I don't like scram shutting mwd either.
It just makes fighs so much rock paper scisors and you have no idea what you're against untill you see mwd shutdown. Only option is to fit rock+paper+scisors yourself too... which means you fit AB+Scram+Web.
Thats the whole point lol, you never know what can pop up in local/scanner same as you can never know what kind of stuff people can have on.
Dont want to take the risk? Dont go <10km range, or dont engage at all. ---
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