Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:21:00 -
[1]
I wanted to ask people in here about their opinions and general take on the lag issue and to how great an extend it can be influenced by changes to general ingame economics.
My theory is that congestion on the servers and the allocated bandwidth is a direct result of the current mechanics of eve economics and "ecological" thinking.
The HUBs in EVE are filled with huge numbers of players. Why?
Mainly my answer would be convenience and stability of prices. You go to Jita because there you can buy and sell everything and trust that you will get a reasonable price for it and available volumes.
Would you go to Jita if you didnt need to?
Second EVERYONE has to go, because logistic and shipping services are next to non existent. The ones there are not used much, and not many wants to even consider a profession in shipping.
All market and contracts are basically LIVE updated. No matter where you are currently you get your information on sales and buys everywhere in the universe. In short servers need to keep you live updated at all times. When this is about hubs that means more strain on bandwidth allocated for you even though your arent located in JITA.
In short the Mega-HUBs are by their nature allocating a lot of BW to needless updates.
---
My question to players and devs would be could we not benefit from shifting load onto CPU on servers and less on managing BW AND CPU demanding operations?
What would happen if contract numbers and market orders were not limited in numbers? (YES ITS THAT DEAD HORSE.. but let me elaborate)..
TO the servers there really is not that much difference whether items are in hangars or on the market. Actually since you dont need refreshing viewing the hangars there might even be less load. So with a reduced limitation to orders people would opt to put much more of their current passive assets on markets at a decided price. Thus availability of items would improve GLOBALLY. Indeed Supply would go up a lot in the early phase, but it would level out rather quickly. Due to the nature of economics a price equilibrium of price would settle faster without the barrier of active orders.
Same goes for contracts especially couriers. If more piles could be in outstanding couriers less items would need refresh with client. The increase number of outstanding courier contracts would warrant the growth of shipping as a profession. Especially if a tab showing isk/m3 that you could sort by. View of courier contracts should then ofc be limited range wise same as the tradeskill. Since this again would mean less LIVE refresh connections with servers and the packets would be more bulk the micro packs back and fourth, again this should help servers on bandwidth. --
The question I am asking is really.. Would such changes not also help player behavior spread out more. While creating more "interesting" fog of war on markets. Since differences between regions would be more sensitive to individual players activities. Especially since the playerbase would be able to stay locally focused, and only move around by interest and exploration, opportunity scouting etc.
--
The current orders and contracts limit should be a daily SESSION changes instead. So plaing a new contract or order and manipulating them cost 1 session change. This would also limit alleged bots or at least equal the ground with players.
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams. |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:30:00 -
[2]
sigh
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shar Tegral sigh
REPORTED
|
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:49:00 -
[4]
Can't fight human nature
Store |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:54:00 -
[5]
Caleb is just mad that he didnt train 3 alts with 8M SP in trading :)
Go go 1000+ market orders :)
|
Phoebe Halliwel
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:56:00 -
[6]
The current squawking about lag issues in eve are nothing to do with trade hubs, or highsec at all. Thread name is a little misleading. The "lag issue" currently is related to PVP not market clickfests. You've had Jita perma-reinforced, shut up with the whining. If you sit in Jita multimanaging many, many orders... you cause the lag, and you can live with it
Le sigh More like backhand.
Just because the hubs are moderately laggy in certain timezones, because of obssessive twitch clickers, doesn't necesitate a game change. Jumping into a 20 man gatecamp and blackcreening, losing ship+pod repeatedly does. Being told by CCP that lag related issues are non reimbursable when the core game is PVP, and marketed as a single shard game in which many 100s of people can fight, is literally game breaking for some people.
This half arsed proposal isn't even related to market discussions, there are other forums you can post in if you log in to update your orders and find the market screen laggy or your items hangar slow.
The current lag issue is pretty serious to a significant portion of the PVP playerbase in eve, so posting to whine about lag in trade hubs grrrr. Look at the rest of the game and consider whether this is really a priority. Get in a ship, undock (!), and leave empire for an hour or so, and you might see what game breaking lag exists.
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.26 23:57:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Caleb Ayrania on 26/07/2010 23:59:14 ^^ REDUCING LAG and NEED of BW and CPU in JITA and EMPIRE is going to fix Null LAG.. Where do you think the main population lives?..
Hmm the boy that cried wolf springs to mind..
I guess when EVE starts getting mass exodus of players that wanted a playable game and not a lagfest with shiny planets and below intelligent griefing pvp we can all agree that it was a fun decade..
Economy ofc has no impact on game playability and non of the above statements hold any value.. Thanks for the serious replies ..
I will just leave that here ^^
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams. |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Get in a ship, undock (!), and leave empire for an hour or so, and you might see what game breaking lag exists.
LMAO, you dont know Caleb do you :) Undock, Caleb LMAO
|
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ji Sama REPORTED
Thank you. I just think this is truly a dead horse issue. Caleb, bless his soul, makes several uninformed assumptions in his post that fundamentally destroy much of his argument. Thus this will just become a long thread of suggestions, counter-suggestions, trolling and then eventually flaming as people recycle all the old arguments back into yet another thread. So, to sum up my position: sigh
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ji Sama REPORTED
Thank you. I just think this is truly a dead horse issue. Caleb, bless his soul, makes several uninformed assumptions in his post that fundamentally destroy much of his argument. Thus this will just become a long thread of suggestions, counter-suggestions, trolling and then eventually flaming as people recycle all the old arguments back into yet another thread. So, to sum up my position: sigh
thrust me i know
been debating this with Caleb since i first met him :) we have an uneasy truce IRL, we dont really talk about it, but here on the forums, all is fair :)
problem is really very complex, and while i agree, on perhaps implementing some thought of limit on how much you can update your orders!
|
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 00:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ji Sama REPORTED
Thank you. I just think this is truly a dead horse issue. Caleb, bless his soul, makes several uninformed assumptions in his post that fundamentally destroy much of his argument. Thus this will just become a long thread of suggestions, counter-suggestions, trolling and then eventually flaming as people recycle all the old arguments back into yet another thread. So, to sum up my position: sigh
^^Maybe you should point a few of them out?
Is it not valid to ask if BW alleviation might improve the general allocation in the game, and make it possible to enforce more on big fleet interactions?
I would presume that most issues with lag is from Bandwidth and reply times between each involved client and the servers? I seriosuly doubt it would be much CPU or RAM related on ccp side? Since their machines now are crazy powerfull.. If this assumption is wrong I would like to hear it from ccp. Where and why is lag such an issue, what is the main bottleneck? If its BW related then the above mentioned should bring it down. If my technical assumptions are wrong I would like to be corrected.
If you pointing to the behavioral arguments I think you should elaborate a bit on where I am concluding something wrongly.
Are you saying mega-hubs would remain used and popular if their necessity was reduced?
Would a spread population not warrant more diverse interaction and opportunities?
I know the Horse might be dead, but I still seriously believe remaining in the current status quo is not helping the game in ANY WAY.
If we dont fix empire and player behaviour motivations what will the added value of DUST and Incarna be, other then a further walk down "Second Life with spreadsheets".. ?
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams. |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 01:22:00 -
[12]
Caleb, I don't know how you've stayed so innocent for so long =P
The lag issues aren't caused because overcrowded empire hubs are taking up too many nodes, they're because even when you dedicate a node, recent code changes have caused small amounts of pvp to tax the server to its limits. Your complaint would be valid if there were 20 Jitas using up all of the resources, but there's not. The issue is that a single system with 400 guys pvping is all the existing code can handle before running out of CPU, etc. No amount of shuffling people between systems and nodes changes that. ______________________________
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Caleb, I don't know how you've stayed so innocent for so long =P
The lag issues aren't caused because overcrowded empire hubs are taking up too many nodes, they're because even when you dedicate a node, recent code changes have caused small amounts of pvp to tax the server to its limits. Your complaint would be valid if there were 20 Jitas using up all of the resources, but there's not. The issue is that a single system with 400 guys pvping is all the existing code can handle before running out of CPU, etc. No amount of shuffling people between systems and nodes changes that.
That was not what I meant. I dont believe its running out of CPU, even with 400 or more people. The servers are really huge, the problem is handling all the requests and synching with players activities. The more information you need to send LIVE to every player the harder the strain on BW and ofc cpu interrupts.
With LESS LIVE updating in the rest of EVE it would be easier to even out loads to handle the LIVE feeds.
Example: With enough RAM and CPU you could request a lot of different torrents from a server, but if a lot of people requested 1 torrent the answering time and "synching" would congest the bandwidth and eat all interrupts? The problem is synching with many different clients with different BW and different ping times. The reverse should not be as difficult?
My suspicion is based on how say banks use crazy advanced BW load technology to manage all the traffic, its almost all load balance related and not very difficult to "upgrade" inside the traffic on say better CPU and more RAM and Storage..
I might be wrong, but it seems that since many people in one location seem to cause more problems, then say more lag at peak hour logins, I would guess I am not to far off point?
The changes I am suggesting is based on reducing remote LIVE update needs, and reduce refresh queries with servers. Not sure if the impact would be to small to notice, but the "rumored" macros/bots sure must be straining for the servers, as I believ enholy rage proved.. This was just suggestions to take that a step further..
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams. |
Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 02:16:00 -
[14]
Meh, I personally think that the new PI mechanics can help but add significant load to the system. It returns an industrial heartbeat function to the cluster, one similar to factory/lab functions prior to the release of the current "demand" system. While I will agree with you that bots add strain to the system it is only as much, per bot, as the most involved player gets. That it is only one player consuming x number of active player(s) drain on the system, it is only reasonable to try to remove them and their effect. But I don't think that the market system itself is part of the overall lag/drain effect. Especially with Jita (and other hubs). Experience and fine tuning have given CCP a lot of control over that technical demand. BTW One example of suppositions on your part: Originally by: Caleb Ayrania To the servers there really is not that much difference whether items are in hangars or on the market.
How do you know this? It is a guess on your part. In fact perhaps it is untrue entirely and your subsequent point totally off base. Hangar items might be a greater demand on the servers. (Better argument for this to be the case than not, I might add.) Equally, much of the basis of your point surrounds guesses about the cluster architecture and inferred connections between "symptoms". In essence, a lot of guessing. This was not meant to be a defeatist dissection of your point. I was just lightly expressing my thought that this is a spinning of the gerbil wheel. Perhaps if a Dev got involved (unlikely) and explained some of the architecture and interactions, then we could add our brains to the problems. Myself, I doubt CCP cares what we think about such things. When people don't know what they are talking about it is easy to be dismissive. CCP is also good at that.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
ChrisIsherwood
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:32:00 -
[15]
There are 5,000+ systems distributed unevenly over 280 processor cores. If 2,000 carebears are clicking away in Jita running on core#17, I just don't see how a 0.0 fleet fight in a system running on core #236 if going to have much impact on or influenced by Jita on its processor.
You could certainly design a market that improved (in my opinion) on the system of rewarding lots of clicking, "always" on, 0.01 bot-like behavior. And it might use fewer resources than the existing system. But I don't see how it would have much of an impact on the reinforced fleet fight.
Trade hubs form because one big market is more convenient/efficient than many smaller markets. I would hope no changes spread out the markets. Now spreading out the players/transportation is another issue. An NPC service that moved freight - e,g, you could get stuff moved from either of the 4 trade hubs to/from Yuli, say at down time. Naturally, this would have too much of an impact on the gank/piracy players to be feasible. Freighters into/out of Jita may use fewer resources than many more industrials moving stuff around to many more hubs.
|
Marshiro
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 05:53:00 -
[16]
Meh, jita is probably pretty low bandwidth per player.
Compare that to a standard L4 runner. The server need to keep track of dozens of objects all moving in space and keep it all up to date. That is on top of whatever remote-pi-market-industry stuff they are going.
For a jita player, all the server needs to do is refresh a market order list once every "arbitrary" amounts of time, and perhaps a little bit of market history. There is a reason why the entire market runs on a server while ship flying can only cover a few nodes.
As for spreading out the market, 500 units in a jita order is much better than 10 units in 50 orders across the universe on every processing perspective.
|
Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 07:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania I know the Horse might be dead
Caleb, Caleb. :) It's not a horse, it's a mule. It's not dead, it's dead, buried, shoving up the daisies - it's a pale wraith of a mule.
Please, enough already. You want more orders, you won't get them - no matter how many times you try.
Instead, how about supporting PvPers with their "Fix our lag!" problem. After all, the more ships that get blown up, the more you'll make on your measly 100000 orders in Yulai. :)
|
TornSoul
BIG Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 09:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ChrisIsherwood There are 5,000+ systems distributed unevenly over 280 processor cores. If 2,000 carebears are clicking away in Jita running on core#17, I just don't see how a 0.0 fleet fight in a system running on core #236 if going to have much impact on or influenced by Jita on its processor.
This.
Also, CCP has stated several times that they are working on detaching the market stuff completely, so that it can run on it's own node (if need be - Or several on the same node) - independent on what else might be going on in a particular system - Fleet fights and what have you.
Ofc - They've been saying this for a few years now...
-------
The *only* way to "disburse" Jita is to put in items (that everyone want/need) that can only be gotten/produced/harvested in geographically remote (bye bye high-ways) areas AND which are divided by some sort of barrier (lots of low sec/0.0/gatecamping) that will make most people not want to do a casual travel between the destinations.
THEN new markets (and thus hubs) will organically emerge. (I really want this!)
Remember that hubs are created as a by-product of human laziness.
BIG Lottery |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec manufacturing disaster
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:41:00 -
[19]
In order for alternate HUBs and mini-hubs to develop and "emerge" there has to be incentives and tools to do it without waiting for the critical mass to be reached population and market seeding wise.
The only way this can be done is denerfing orders and contracts, so smaller groups of traders and other service professions can cover enough of the local needs.
You can not open a mechanics shop servicing only one brand of cars in rural areas, and you dont open a 5 man taxicab company in a 500 people village.
Trading and Shipping is such a minute population and limiting them from a features aspect and artificial barriers of entry is just down right stupid. I have tried turning this topic for years now, pathetic as it sounds, but for some reason not many seem to care.
People keep whining about Jita and mega hub dependancy, but arent interested in the solutions. They keep whining about transportation of stuff and asking for npc solutions like Interbus, but they wont support simple player based solutions.
-- Limit view range of contracts. Less updates and queries and better region to region fog of war on prices. You want information move there with an alt or use outgame services or ingame channels for PC.
Remove outstanding orders and contracts limitation, thus making it possible to seed low populated areas, and have passive assets shipped by opportune pickups.
Fix npc pricing dynamics so all facilities are supply and demand based. That would include office rentals, ME and PE research, Manufacturing, and even repair shops. Make it fast reacting and no floor or ceiling. This would make the flux of price and values much more interesting and dependent on LOCATION/LOCATION/LOCATION.. This would get players to roam and research space for alternatives and make player owned POS even more interesting. This in turn would shift pricing more according to specializations, because competition would decrease from lack of micro bidding wars and better margins in unsupplied areas.
Fix corp standing calculation to make it more worth while to be part of bigger groups. Makes more sense that you join a corp to setup a high sec POS, than quitting a corp to set it up.. Sure this would mean more would set them up and more competition, but that would rebalance from POS Fuels and RAW material prices..
Magephone is out of batteries..
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge ****tails and Dreams. |
flakeys
DRAMA Inc
|
Posted - 2010.07.27 17:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ji Sama
Originally by: Shar Tegral sigh
REPORTED
Couldn't help but laughing really loud , did even give shar a big smile i think :)
|
|
Tyana Oro
Akashwani
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 10:47:00 -
[21]
I was really hoping this was going to me a discussion about how large fleet fight lag has effected the eve economy. Mineral prices being effected by fewer large wars, moon mining, POS's not being blown up at as high a rate. I think this could have been a very interesting discussion.
leaving very disappointed.
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 11:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania All market and contracts are basically LIVE updated. No matter where you are currently you get your information on sales and buys everywhere in the universe. In short servers need to keep you live updated at all times. When this is about hubs that means more strain on bandwidth allocated for you even though your arent located in JITA.
WRONG You only get updates of what you request to view. The server will NEVER keep sending you data about all possible orders, it will ONLY send you data about the orders in your current region for the item you select to view from the market window, and only that item.
All the rest of your OP is equally pointless and/or wrong. It appears you have absolutely no idea how the communication between client and server works. Better NOT suggest "fixes" for problems that don't even exist when you don't know what you're talking about.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
|
Tyana Oro
Akashwani
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 11:11:00 -
[23]
For a second there I didn't see who Akita was quoting, thought it was me, and all I saw was "WRONG". Not a great way to start your first post on MD. I was very relieved upon actually reading.
I would still like to see a real discussion about how lag is actually effecting the Eve economy. Maybe I'll start my first thread....
|
Janya Rykayn
|
Posted - 2010.08.01 12:09:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Janya Rykayn on 01/08/2010 12:10:31 This is one of the silliest things I've read in a while. It's one of those things where you think someone is trolling but you know they aren't.
* If you want to see lag get involved in a fleet fight. THAT is unplayable lag and the largest power-blocs in the game are quite rightly howling about it. That should, imo, be fixed before Jita's lag. How many times have you really lost a 1B ship because of Jita lag?
* Lag in Jita is in no way crippling or "game-breaking." It's a minor inconvenience at worst. If it really bothers you, move your trading operations to some other hub, or multiple hubs with multiple alts. No more lag and your profits will very likely spike.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |