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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:12:00 -
[1]
This is not a whine thread about fixing Eve/dropping Incarna/18 months.
I have one, and only one specific question that I wish to be answered.
I saw a video some time ago, with Hilmar talking about CCP's new focus point: Excellence. He talked about how he was very happy with the new features CCP made in the past years, but then stated that it was time to turn away from making new stuff and time to improve the old. He specifically stated that CCP was turning away from new features for the time being. I was even a little disappointed at the time, because I thought it was an excuse for not wanting to work on more stuff. CCP even made a cool minute or so long clip with pictures of CCP employees and shiny graphics, concluding with a picure of at face and the word Excellence.
I'm honestly not trying to whine, I'm just genuinely curious about what happened to this campaign. Is it still on-going? Was it dropped in order to push Incarna and Dust as soon as possible? Was it just moved to the back burner?
If a dev could respond with a simple one line post, I would be satisfied :)
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Average Jack
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:17:00 -
[2]
The answer is easy: Excellence means "earn lots of money to finance our next projects on the backs of our once-loyal customers".
We didn't want those 150k 0.0-affiliated accounts in the first place.
I'm sure if you were an investor then you'd find this excellent.
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Legs Mackenzie
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:43:00 -
[3]
CCP has become increasingly profit driven in the last year or so. This is the reason that a number of features are dropped, such as widescreen being "too expensive to maintain." That old chestnut of theirs gets trotted out on occasion. Classic graphics, medium shader, widescreen, Linux. It won't be the last time that something becomes "too expensive to maintain."
Heck, the CSM minutes suggest they are too busy trying to get that other cash-cow of theirs out the gate to improve things on the game we're actually playing at the moment.
What would you want, now answer this honestly, want an excellent product - or more lovely money?!
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Average Jack
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Average Jack on 29/07/2010 09:50:15
Originally by: Legs Mackenzie What would you want, now answer this honestly, want an excellent product - or more lovely money?!
I'd simply lie to my customers claiming that I'm interested in providing an excellent product. Then I'd lol all the way to the bank. Oh, and I'd promote some marketing person to Senior Producer in a vain attempt to sweet talk the community.
Edit: and of course I'd ask my customers to go and vote me as best game of the year.
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pipvac
Sacred Templars Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 10:35:00 -
[5]
When will people realise that CCP have absolutely no interest in 'fixing' Eve. The greatest incremental revenue provider will be in the off shoot projects such as Dust, and will therefore be their priority, as clearly stated in their latest Dev Blogs.
Money talks. If you REALLY want CCP to fix Eve, vote with your subscription and cancel now. Its the ONLY way they will listen.
The irony of this is, if enough do it, then they will probably take the commercial decision the Eve is coming to the end of its product life cycle. Rather than consider real product fixes as life cycle extensions. As they seem fixated on consoles as the future.
Desperately seeking originality since the first "can I have your stuff" since 2003. |
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:03:00 -
[6]
CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:05:00 -
[7]
I'd be interested in knowing when the next patch is due. Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist |
Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gladys Pank I'd be interested in knowing when the next patch is due.
I can answer that: before the winter expansion. HTH
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
I'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place. |
Cailais
Amarr THE ORDAINED
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
I'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place.
I look good in blue. Not so much with being naked though!
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Smokey Jill
Ackbar Military Planning
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:27:00 -
[13]
CCP is adding fixes often. I am SOOO glad we got that plex thing fixed. It was really on my top 10 list of things bothering me in game. --
"IzzyChan" My character is like a punk kid running a corp of destruction and awesome.
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Atticus Fynch
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Smokey Jill CCP is adding fixes often. I am SOOO glad we got that plex thing fixed. It was really on my top 10 list of things bothering me in game.
sarcasm? |
Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
i like it when stuff that is reported for ages in test server feedback, bug reports, and also other channels makes it on to tq
it makes me feel kinda like nelson off the simpsons lol
x
My Facebook! |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:42:00 -
[16]
See you all in 18 months. Off to tanks.
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Xtover
Suicide Kings
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Not trying to speak for anyone else here, but I believe the "bugs" that are being referred to are not typos in missions.
The large changes are often unwanted, unwarranted, or unpopular while issues brought up through the CSM largely go ignored.
Think deeper.
How many issues did CCP accept at the last CSM summit? NONE.
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Jack Gilligan
Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.29 12:05:00 -
[18]
Yeah, I read your article about 2011.
But what part of FIX THE DAMN BROKEN SERVER FIRST!!! do you at CCP fail to understand?
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2010.07.29 12:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Nyphur on 29/07/2010 12:57:00
I think the big issue here is that CCP began concentrating on a lot of internal stuff that's required but which players cant directly observe. Oveur said during the CSM summit that he believes CCP are still firmly committed to excellence, but he went on to give examples that aren't directly tangible to players. He said the codebase is in a really good shape, and the cluster is (technologically) at a better point than it's ever been. I get the impression from the CSM minutes that lots of back-end issues have been straightened out and technical debt left over from the Apocrypha expansion has been paid. It's also clear that the groundwork has been laid for a lot of future expansion.
Unfortunately for us players, that isn't something most of us care about because all we really see are the internet spaceships. It'd help a lot for CCP to publicise more of the back-end and internal things they've been doing that we just don't know about. Some of my favourite devblogs have been the ones on technology and infrastructure changes. The ship shader and texture packaging tweaks, the planet procedural generation system etc. All we see are sharper textures and pretty planets, but devblogs like that show just how much work went into those things and how high quality that work is.
Originally by: Xtover How many issues did CCP accept at the last CSM summit? NONE.
That's not quite how the CSM works. All the issues that are raised to the CSM and gain enough support are voted on in their council meetings. Those that pass the vote on whether the issue should be brought to CCP's attention are added to the development backlog. Those that warrant further discussion with CCP before being added are discussed at the summit. So a lot of issues were added to the development backlog by the current CSM session. CCP didn't directly agree to commit resources to any individual issue, but they have never done that in previous CSM sessions either. That's not the process. And yet, they still managed to deliver tangible CSM-supported features and changes to the game.
At the summit, the CSM were just told the resources aren't available to directly tackle issues from that backlog. That means that while there are issues in the backlog from this year (and previous years), there'll be fewer resources available to tackle them. If a development team is working on a feature during this next expansion development cycle and there are CSM (or non-CSM) issues in the backlog related to that feature, they could very well be tackled. I think people will be surprised at the issues CCP manages to tackle from the CSM backlog during the coming development cycles. They should also be in a better position to show us what issues are actually being tackled. Currently CSM-supported issues in the backlog aren't tagged as such so there's really no way of knowing whether a given point in the patch notes is anything CSM-supported. This is something CCP did commit to change during the Summit. So hopefully when those changes come in, CCP can actually publicise it and say "Hey, here's a fix/change/feature that the CSM suggested and we delivered".
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.07.29 12:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
What you are neglecting to mention here is the number of new problems introduced with new patches. This number is increasing all the time as the complexity of your product increases.
Do you ever look back at for instance the POS shooting bug introduced with Tyrannis how this slipped through QA and how this could be avoided in the future ?
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nyphur
I think the big issue here is that CCP began concentrating on a lot of internal stuff that's required but which players cant directly observe. Oveur said during the CSM summit that he believes CCP are still firmly committed to excellence, but he went on to give examples that aren't directly tangible to players. He said the codebase is in a really good shape, and the cluster is (technologically) at a better point than it's ever been. I get the impression from the CSM minutes that lots of back-end issues have been straightened out and technical debt left over from the Apocrypha expansion has been paid. It's also clear that the groundwork has been laid for a lot of future expansion.
If that is really the case that would be great news. Personally I got the completely opposite impression of the codebase.
Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Of course its pure speculation on my part, as it must be considering the lack of solid information available.
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Pennwisedom
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Whether that is true or not, logically, one does not suggest the other.
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oolk
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Atticus FynchI'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place.[:twisted:
Dude really,would feel like just another day at the office for them all
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SkinSin
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:32:00 -
[24]
CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
You have been mass testing for over a year now and instead of improving the lag, it seems to get worse with each addition to the game, i'm really starting to wonder if you guys even know where to look, when it is related to lag... Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of facts. |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 29/07/2010 13:49:30
How about you tear up your damned roadmaps and fix this lag now, put all your incarna stuff on hold, don't abandon it, just shove it in a corner somewhere and devote more manpower to fixing this game.
Because in 18 months ccp, you won't have much of a playerbase left to present incarna to. Especially with the trend of the lag getting steadily worse over time like some sort of cancer.
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Zia Aiz
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Navigator I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
To get some more participation in the mass testing area, think about rewarding people with something, couple days worth of SP, a ship, ... in return for submitting a good bug report & participating on mass tests.
So you finally get the participation you need to increase the chance of finding something that fixes the lag.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pennwisedom
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Whether that is true or not, logically, one does not suggest the other.
I didn't get that. Do you mean to say that my use of the English language is flawed, or my logical reasoning is flawed?
All I meant to say was that when a lot of requests are refused due to technical reasons, even simple ones, that is often caused by a codebase that is not in perfect shape.
And yes I do know my use of the English language leaves much to be desired. My apologies for being born outside the UK.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
I don't think it necessarily follows that the code is a mess if a given suggested change would require a complete rewrite. Granted, poor documentation can make editions to code almost completely infeasible, as can indecypherable code written by a former employee. It'd turn a system into a complete black box that nobody wants to touch, necessitating a completely new system to be built if any change is required. But the need for a rewrite can also be due to built-in limitations in the technologies CCP are using. The sound engine, for example, might be a library they bought a license to years ago that someone else developed. In this hypothetical scenario, they'd then be limited to whatever interface the guy who developed that library saw fit to include. Back in 2003, true binaural sound might not have been computationally feasible in realtime and so might have been left out of the sound API. Without the library's source code, CCP would be unable to add that feature. The alternative would be a complete rewrite of a new sound engine, but that would reqire a lot of work.
As a programmer (albiet having only worked on academic projects and my own personal projects), I can tell you that a complete rewrite of something big can be a dreaded experience. You essentially discard months or years of previous work in the hopes that your new version is worth the effort of complete redevelopment. You'd be very wary of wasting development resources on something with not enough tangible benefit. It's a really hard decision to make even when the only resource is your own spare time, I can't imagine what it must be like to be allocating development resources measured in cash. If there were a really good reason to do a rewrite of something like the sound engine, they'd probably do it. But it'd probably need to be some amazing new super-ear-orgasm-9000 technology being released.
If a rewrite is done well, ideally you would hardly notice the difference in the end product at all but there'd be months or years of work put into it. It can be done to take advantage of a new technology or to provide extensibility options for future development. For example, CCP might rewrite their entire content pipeline to take advantage of some new compression technique and we wouldn't see a difference, but the workload to do that could be huge. Rewrites take up such a disproportionately large amount of development resources and time compared to the visible results that there had better be a damn good reason for them. If it's just for something the players perceieve as a minor improvement, it's got to be hard to justify expending all those resources on it.
A good example of rewrites gone bad would be Duke Nukem Forever. They completely rewrote the game several times, each time because the guy in charge found a new rendering engine he thought would be better. They went through several complete rewrites, going from the Quake 2 engine to the Unreal engine, to others. Each time, they believed the extra time spent in re-developing all the existing game features under a new engine would be worth it because the engine provided them with much better features for further development. But each time, they spent years developing and a new engine would be released in the mean time. Word on the street is that CCP has done several rewrites of Incarna so far, which would explain why it's been in heavy development for years.
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