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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:09:00 -
[31]
What? CCP's coding not being full of comments to help make it easier to work with. What a proposterous suggestion.
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Pennwisedom
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:11:00 -
[32]
I am saying that logically a rewrite being necessary does not really say that much about the code. It depends a lot more on what the request is, and there are a lot of requests that do not seem like they'd be something that would be easily able to be slotted in somewhere because they talk about large design changes.
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SkinSin
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: CCP Navigator It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
But then it's not difficult to say what you intend to fix, or what you are trying to fix, and give updates on that, even if those updates means you saying that the fix was withdrawn due to issue X, Y, or Z. Sure people might get a bit upset, but quite frankly, they'd be a lot less upset than they are at the moment.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:48:00 -
[34]
Thanks to Penwise and Nyphur for the comments.
And sorry Penwise for being a bit defensive there.
I do agree that my conclusion is mostly guesswork. As I said we dont know the details. Although even if the code is in great shape, if simple features can't be improved upon for technical reasons I'd say that is a practical problem. In that case it doesn't really matter if the code is nice and tidy or a complete mess - the end result is the same.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.07.29 15:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
And yet in over 3 years, the overview bugs people have been petitioning since time immemorial have never been addressed.
Hearing about lists of changes and reading devblogs about how things will get better has gotten really old when we can see backlogged issues that are years old. I'm sure the majority of the gameplay issues people have are nowhere near being touched.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Jason1138
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Posted - 2010.07.29 16:28:00 -
[36]
you guys could not be doing a worse job of answering concerns and calming player fears if it was your stated mission to upset everyone with a subscription
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Jack Gilligan
Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.29 16:59:00 -
[37]
How do you achieve "excellence" when you won't commit the resources to achieve more than what most would call "mediocrity"?
Simple, you hire marketing people to spin "mediocrity is the new excellence" for you to a gaming industry press that never asks followup questions.
SOE has been doing this for years. Hate to see CCP engaging in it now, I always thought you guys were better than this.
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Odinegras
Gallente 0utbreak Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:01:00 -
[38]
sounds like teh usual management bull**** to me, sure sign of a failing company, i give ccp 6 months before the receivers are called in..
Expanding your company too soon, much?
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:24:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Aerilis on 29/07/2010 17:25:17 This is getting off topic.
Thank you for the dev responses, but I want to know what specifically happened the Excellence (capital "e") focus point. The campaign with the pretty posters and the shiny video you made for it. Excellence was supposed to be CCP refocusing away from new feature and turning to improve old ones, but if anything it would seem the opposite is true.
Again--I have no interest in discussing whether CCP should fix the game or make new features--that subject has enough attention in other threads. I just want to know what happened to Excellence (capital "e").
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sinfulangel
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 29/07/2010 17:25:17 This is getting off topic.
Thank you for the dev responses, but I want to know what specifically happened the Excellence (capital "e") focus point. The campaign with the pretty posters and the shiny video you made for it. Excellence was supposed to be CCP refocusing away from new feature and turning to improve old ones, but if anything it would seem the opposite is true.
Again--I have no interest in discussing whether CCP should fix the game or make new features--that subject has enough attention in other threads. I just want to know what happened to Excellence (capital "e").
See my signature for what happened and you will understand.
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oil
Double-L
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:56:00 -
[41]
Thanks to the managers for ruining OUR game
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Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:15:00 -
[42]
Hey ccp I got your excellence right here.
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Shar Totanka
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:25:00 -
[43]
Excellence and iterative development are both are a bit self delusional on CCP's part. The developers are working hard but not on improving things in the spaceship game, things like fleet lag, planetary interaction, making low sec more interesting or even adding more content to wormholes.
All those things have huge potential in the existing game, yet nobody is working on them. Well maybe the DUST team is working on PI, but they won't be forever.
Instead CCP is working on Incarna and DUST features. Both are investments into the future of eve-online, and I get why they might make the game completely awesome 10 years from now, but they have nothing to do with the spaceship game today and in my eyes it's a waste of time.
Incarna isn't going to revolutionize eve-online. People who don't play because they don't want to be a space ship, and there are quite a few, will still not play because they'll still be a space ship everytime they leave the 3D chat and, actually, play the game. Strictly speaking of gameplay mechanics we, the existing players, won't benefit from the 3D chat either. It's not going to make access to station services faster/easier, in all likelihood it'll make the process more troublesome and slower; and if there's one thing to know about MMO players it's that they'll all take the easiest path.
Sure some players will like it, others will use it once and then never again. My guess is that it'll be tne minority who use it until it becomes possible to go directly from eve-online to dust 10 years from now when the clients have migrated.
I'd blame the marketing division though, it's their job know what the players want and make the game designers aware of it. It's pretty obvious that process has failed completely, and it'll be interesting to see where it takes CCP.
I for one doubt there will even be enough players involved in PI to make anyone want to hire a DUST corp to duke things out. :p
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar Blacklight Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
1) Thanks for at least alking to us Navagator +1 for you.
2) Sorry...I'll believe it when I see it...in 18 months right?
Syn Callibri Ilharess of the Scorpion Tribe
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Flaming Lemming
Caldari Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Navigator I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Instead of this, which apparently has had no real results, why don't a few of you sit wherever a big fight is happening...maybe where a reinforced node has been requested, then you can see what's happening in real-game conditions? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Flaming Lemming Instead of this, which apparently has had no real results, why don't a few of you sit wherever a big fight is happening...maybe where a reinforced node has been requested, then you can see what's happening in real-game conditions?
How do you know that it has no real results? It has been stated that these mass tests have revealed certain problems which have already been fixed. For the rest of it, they are dealing with hard problems and it takes a while to fix them. CCP has had a dedicated lag team for a while now, and they haven't kept it a secret. All the people who whine about nobody working on the problem have their heads firmly implanted in their colon.
I'm not particularly pleased with CCP's priorities either, but on this one particular point, people really should just STFU. They know. They're working on it. They HAVE been working on it. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Srialia
Misfit Toys
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Navigator It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
You'll forgive me if I call your posts pure damage control with no basis in reality. The oh-so-wonderful devblog about iterative development let us know just how few developmental resources were being spent on the problems in the current game. The tone of it was insulting at best, expressing confusion over the tone of the CSM minutes and how Zulu didn't think people were frustrated at all over being ignored in favor of new customers.
More communication is good, but if all it's going to consist of is, "Yes, you're right, we're pretty much ignoring what we have in favor of new shiny things, and we don't understand why everyone's so upset!" then I suggest you not bother at all. If you do publish more of that garbage, then don't come on the forums wondering why everyone is so angry with you.
It's also good that you will be testing more things on Sisi, but don't expect me to be impressed. This should always be happening with any sort of continuous development. Add to that the fact that all the wonderful bug fixes put into the game over the last 6 months have been "things that players will likely never notice or be affected by" when there are so many things that we've been screaming about for months or years, and I have to wonder again where your priorities are.
Let's be clear: I mostly don't blame you or the people who are actually working on the game. The entire problem is your core development philosophy, that of making new things and utterly forsaking what you already have. This is probably a management decision, and one made by people who don't care about their customers. The quote from the CSM minutes says it all: "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Well congratulations, I'm sure you're making roughly as much money by crapping out half-finished yet new things every 6 months as you would be if you actually improved anything about your game.
In the meantime, you're building up a mountain of customer dissatisfaction and resentment. The more you continue like this, the more people are going to take any excuse to leave. I'm looking at Guild Wars 2, myself, even though it doesn't really offer anything that eve does (the freedom this game has is really the only reason I still play). You know what they're doing? They're looking at what is, in their opinion, currently wrong with the MMO game type, and working on changing it. That's something that shouldn't be as amazing as it is, but if you and other companies are just going to continue operating under the "we got your money, now screw off" mentality, it's a remarkable thing when someone breaks the mold. Your company needs to start acting like it values its customers, because we all have a breaking point. You seem to be doing your best to find it.
One final tip for employees that actually post here. Stop fanning the flames. Zym's post panhandling for votes was insane if it was serious. If it was some sort of ironic troll, then **** all of you.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 20:42:00 -
[48]
Reputation, much like virginity can only be lost once.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.30 00:22:00 -
[49]
bump, I really want to know what's going on with this thing :/
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.30 00:29:00 -
[50]
has there been any progress
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Sneaky Noob
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.07.30 01:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
Dear CCP,
After re-reading the DevBlog, I would like to point out the following:
First off, Incarna (9 teams, approximately 70 developers) + Dust 514/EVE link (1 team, approximately 7 developers) + EVE Gate (1 team, approximately 10 developers)
You, CCP have 87 people working on the new features that according to your own data, sell so well. Meanwhile you have 37 people working on issues that may (or may not) be some of the unpolished and poorly-implemented features and mechanics that have slowly sucked the life out of this game.
If Incarna is really MORE than just Dust+WiS you should publicize this fact. As it stands, the common belief is that Incarna is ONLY WiS. If you have some massive revamp of the database and code planned, let us know. Because, once again, from a players PoV, it really doesn't look like this.
In addition, I have re-read the patch notes for all the releases since Apocrypha. All of them include multiple fixes and all have a section titled "need for speed". How do you expect us to believe that you are doing your best to tackle the problem of in-game lag when every new patch and release is making the problem worse?
Re-think your objectives, re-think your strategy. Re-think your policy on new-vs-working game features. Listen to your player base. They, as much as CCP have built EVE into what it is today. They are fed up.
That is all.
The Sneakiest N00b in all of EVE -------
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Terrigal
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Posted - 2010.07.30 01:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Navigator we already think ccp's lying to us
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 10:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Well, let me start with i love eve since i started in early 04 and its unlikely ill drop the habit anytime soon. To the current state of affairs, i do both small scale pvp and sov fighting, so i do get affected by lag and its annoying tho nothing new, certainly not a gamebreaker for me as when i have enough of it i just go do something different. I also understand that you as a company made the decision to invest more in dust and incarna as a new product, but it makes little sense to me what you are doing with the devtime that is spent on eve.
I know nothing of programming, tho i would believe that it doesnt take that many devs to tweak ship stats. If you think back to the second buff of t1 ships which made rifters and other t1 frigs more popular, it was a big deal for the whole eve community and many players still enjoy that patch. There are now a good third of all ships hardly flown at all, which in theory have very interesting roles but do not compete with better ships even in their own race in their class. The same goes for mods, as example all Domination/Republic shield and armor resistance mods have very little going for them, not much of joy to pick up those of a faction spawn wreck.
My point is, wouldnt it make sense to have a few ppl work on these balance issues, maybe with the help of the community as in leaving changes on the testserver for months to be properly discussed, and give everyone more gamecontent for a relative little price on your side? -
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Jardos
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Posted - 2010.07.30 10:14:00 -
[54]
The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:39:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
Were Dominion [terrible customer expectation management with the super carriers] and Tyrannis [the "great POS module reprocessing fiasco '10" and POSes shooting friendlies] examples of "excellence?" Speculatively, the answer to that question may also help with understanding the personnel change.
Originally by: Jardos CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
This leads to the question: For whom is the focus on "Excellence" intended?
Existing customers? Prospective customers? CCP employees? CCP investors?
The answer is looking more and more like the latter two possibilities with CCP having grown into a beast that needs to justify its monthly employee salary expenditures as well as a drive to tap into large social / console gaming markets with WiS and Dust 514.
CCP is currently walking on a razor thin ridge at this point, balancing quite a few things:
1) Very fast organizational growth. That is an exceptional challenge for most small businesses -- one that can cause all sorts of pains while the growth is taking place. Personnel changes are only one aspect of this tumultuous time.
2) Maintaining an existing product (EVE Online) whose consumers are hyper-interested in its success and highly attentive to the product's performance metrics. If EVE Online should become unavailable or perform poorly, CCP's response time to remedy the situation is measured in minutes and hours by its customers. Upkeep of this revenue stream is unrelenting. Project management related to expansions, repairs and client expectation management is also part of the challenge.
3) Producing not only two completely new aspects to EVE Online (WiS + Dust 514), the flagship product, but also producing / nurturing additional intellectual properties with their own communities, investors(?) and hurdles.
4) Unknown investor pressures and expectations. Keep in mind that CCP also answers, in-part, to the Chinese government as, last I heard, all foreign businesses with an interest in China are required to make the government a partner in their in-country ventures. The burden of being a profitable entity in Iceland where the banks recently went Tango Uniform is probably felt at the top of the food chain. The good folks at CCP may have no choice but to pursue other ventures outside of the core EVE internet spaceships to hit subscriber target numbers, regardless of cost to their current clients.
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Giovanni DalleBandeNere
Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara ]This leads to the question: For whom is the focus on "Excellence" intended?
Existing customers? Prospective customers? CCP employees? CCP investors?
agree that's the point,and the answer, lookin at it from a mere customer(player) PoV is the last which , if we step back from our customer position, is how every company works (well at least most of them, more and more by the passing of years).
As far as i can understand (and i might be completely worng eh) CCP has grown since some years ago, and that brought in new "needs" I've personally been involved in at least 2 similar transitions (of coure have nothing to do with the gamin industry), one ended fine for the company (even if not good for myself = employee) the other ended bad for the company and for me aswell (always as empoyee), but for sure both were bad for the already existing customer base.
So from my (limited) pov if CCP decides to go the main way (gettin bigger and bigger) , they will loose a big part of their current player base (as long as every epmloyee not ready/willing to stick to that way of making business), in the hope of gettin a lot of new/fresh players...well GL CCP , and i'm not using sarcasm.
for sure as current customer i feel i have the right to point out my disappointment, and that's what happening in the "vote EVE for best EU game" thread
cya
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.30 16:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
Can a dev confirm that Zulu sacked "Excellence"?
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Ascendic
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.30 16:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
Can a dev confirm that Zulu sacked "Excellence"?
Sure, If he wants to be fired.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Rep-X
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Posted - 2010.07.30 16:46:00 -
[59]
We give you all this grief because we love this game. I hope you know that.
HUGS and BFF's forevah.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2010.07.30 17:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Terrigal
Originally by: CCP Navigator -snip-
Navigator we already think ccp's already lying to us
FYP
Ye'llo? |
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