Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:12:00 -
[1]
This is not a whine thread about fixing Eve/dropping Incarna/18 months.
I have one, and only one specific question that I wish to be answered.
I saw a video some time ago, with Hilmar talking about CCP's new focus point: Excellence. He talked about how he was very happy with the new features CCP made in the past years, but then stated that it was time to turn away from making new stuff and time to improve the old. He specifically stated that CCP was turning away from new features for the time being. I was even a little disappointed at the time, because I thought it was an excuse for not wanting to work on more stuff. CCP even made a cool minute or so long clip with pictures of CCP employees and shiny graphics, concluding with a picure of at face and the word Excellence.
I'm honestly not trying to whine, I'm just genuinely curious about what happened to this campaign. Is it still on-going? Was it dropped in order to push Incarna and Dust as soon as possible? Was it just moved to the back burner?
If a dev could respond with a simple one line post, I would be satisfied :)
|
Average Jack
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:17:00 -
[2]
The answer is easy: Excellence means "earn lots of money to finance our next projects on the backs of our once-loyal customers".
We didn't want those 150k 0.0-affiliated accounts in the first place.
I'm sure if you were an investor then you'd find this excellent.
|
Legs Mackenzie
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:43:00 -
[3]
CCP has become increasingly profit driven in the last year or so. This is the reason that a number of features are dropped, such as widescreen being "too expensive to maintain." That old chestnut of theirs gets trotted out on occasion. Classic graphics, medium shader, widescreen, Linux. It won't be the last time that something becomes "too expensive to maintain."
Heck, the CSM minutes suggest they are too busy trying to get that other cash-cow of theirs out the gate to improve things on the game we're actually playing at the moment.
What would you want, now answer this honestly, want an excellent product - or more lovely money?!
|
Average Jack
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 09:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Average Jack on 29/07/2010 09:50:15
Originally by: Legs Mackenzie What would you want, now answer this honestly, want an excellent product - or more lovely money?!
I'd simply lie to my customers claiming that I'm interested in providing an excellent product. Then I'd lol all the way to the bank. Oh, and I'd promote some marketing person to Senior Producer in a vain attempt to sweet talk the community.
Edit: and of course I'd ask my customers to go and vote me as best game of the year.
|
pipvac
Sacred Templars Black Star Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 10:35:00 -
[5]
When will people realise that CCP have absolutely no interest in 'fixing' Eve. The greatest incremental revenue provider will be in the off shoot projects such as Dust, and will therefore be their priority, as clearly stated in their latest Dev Blogs.
Money talks. If you REALLY want CCP to fix Eve, vote with your subscription and cancel now. Its the ONLY way they will listen.
The irony of this is, if enough do it, then they will probably take the commercial decision the Eve is coming to the end of its product life cycle. Rather than consider real product fixes as life cycle extensions. As they seem fixated on consoles as the future.
Desperately seeking originality since the first "can I have your stuff" since 2003. |
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:03:00 -
[6]
CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
|
|
Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:05:00 -
[7]
I'd be interested in knowing when the next patch is due. Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist |
Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gladys Pank I'd be interested in knowing when the next patch is due.
I can answer that: before the winter expansion. HTH
|
Atticus Fynch
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
I'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place. |
Cailais
Amarr THE ORDAINED
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
|
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
I'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place.
I look good in blue. Not so much with being naked though!
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
|
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
|
|
Smokey Jill
Ackbar Military Planning
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:27:00 -
[13]
CCP is adding fixes often. I am SOOO glad we got that plex thing fixed. It was really on my top 10 list of things bothering me in game. --
"IzzyChan" My character is like a punk kid running a corp of destruction and awesome.
|
Atticus Fynch
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Smokey Jill CCP is adding fixes often. I am SOOO glad we got that plex thing fixed. It was really on my top 10 list of things bothering me in game.
sarcasm? |
Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
i like it when stuff that is reported for ages in test server feedback, bug reports, and also other channels makes it on to tq
it makes me feel kinda like nelson off the simpsons lol
x
My Facebook! |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:42:00 -
[16]
See you all in 18 months. Off to tanks.
|
Xtover
Suicide Kings
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 11:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Not trying to speak for anyone else here, but I believe the "bugs" that are being referred to are not typos in missions.
The large changes are often unwanted, unwarranted, or unpopular while issues brought up through the CSM largely go ignored.
Think deeper.
How many issues did CCP accept at the last CSM summit? NONE.
|
Jack Gilligan
Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 12:05:00 -
[18]
Yeah, I read your article about 2011.
But what part of FIX THE DAMN BROKEN SERVER FIRST!!! do you at CCP fail to understand?
|
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 12:46:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Nyphur on 29/07/2010 12:57:00
I think the big issue here is that CCP began concentrating on a lot of internal stuff that's required but which players cant directly observe. Oveur said during the CSM summit that he believes CCP are still firmly committed to excellence, but he went on to give examples that aren't directly tangible to players. He said the codebase is in a really good shape, and the cluster is (technologically) at a better point than it's ever been. I get the impression from the CSM minutes that lots of back-end issues have been straightened out and technical debt left over from the Apocrypha expansion has been paid. It's also clear that the groundwork has been laid for a lot of future expansion.
Unfortunately for us players, that isn't something most of us care about because all we really see are the internet spaceships. It'd help a lot for CCP to publicise more of the back-end and internal things they've been doing that we just don't know about. Some of my favourite devblogs have been the ones on technology and infrastructure changes. The ship shader and texture packaging tweaks, the planet procedural generation system etc. All we see are sharper textures and pretty planets, but devblogs like that show just how much work went into those things and how high quality that work is.
Originally by: Xtover How many issues did CCP accept at the last CSM summit? NONE.
That's not quite how the CSM works. All the issues that are raised to the CSM and gain enough support are voted on in their council meetings. Those that pass the vote on whether the issue should be brought to CCP's attention are added to the development backlog. Those that warrant further discussion with CCP before being added are discussed at the summit. So a lot of issues were added to the development backlog by the current CSM session. CCP didn't directly agree to commit resources to any individual issue, but they have never done that in previous CSM sessions either. That's not the process. And yet, they still managed to deliver tangible CSM-supported features and changes to the game.
At the summit, the CSM were just told the resources aren't available to directly tackle issues from that backlog. That means that while there are issues in the backlog from this year (and previous years), there'll be fewer resources available to tackle them. If a development team is working on a feature during this next expansion development cycle and there are CSM (or non-CSM) issues in the backlog related to that feature, they could very well be tackled. I think people will be surprised at the issues CCP manages to tackle from the CSM backlog during the coming development cycles. They should also be in a better position to show us what issues are actually being tackled. Currently CSM-supported issues in the backlog aren't tagged as such so there's really no way of knowing whether a given point in the patch notes is anything CSM-supported. This is something CCP did commit to change during the Summit. So hopefully when those changes come in, CCP can actually publicise it and say "Hey, here's a fix/change/feature that the CSM suggested and we delivered".
|
Darth Vapour
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 12:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
What you are neglecting to mention here is the number of new problems introduced with new patches. This number is increasing all the time as the complexity of your product increases.
Do you ever look back at for instance the POS shooting bug introduced with Tyrannis how this slipped through QA and how this could be avoided in the future ?
|
|
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nyphur
I think the big issue here is that CCP began concentrating on a lot of internal stuff that's required but which players cant directly observe. Oveur said during the CSM summit that he believes CCP are still firmly committed to excellence, but he went on to give examples that aren't directly tangible to players. He said the codebase is in a really good shape, and the cluster is (technologically) at a better point than it's ever been. I get the impression from the CSM minutes that lots of back-end issues have been straightened out and technical debt left over from the Apocrypha expansion has been paid. It's also clear that the groundwork has been laid for a lot of future expansion.
If that is really the case that would be great news. Personally I got the completely opposite impression of the codebase.
Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Of course its pure speculation on my part, as it must be considering the lack of solid information available.
|
Pennwisedom
Gallente Sublime.
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Whether that is true or not, logically, one does not suggest the other.
|
oolk
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Atticus FynchI'll take your word for it. BUT!! Come winter expansion, if things are still broken I'm going to find you, strip you naked, paint you blue and put you on a bus to some God-forsaken place.[:twisted:
Dude really,would feel like just another day at the office for them all
|
SkinSin
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:32:00 -
[24]
CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
|
|
CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
|
|
Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
You have been mass testing for over a year now and instead of improving the lag, it seems to get worse with each addition to the game, i'm really starting to wonder if you guys even know where to look, when it is related to lag... Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of facts. |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 13:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: TheLordofAllandNothing on 29/07/2010 13:49:30
How about you tear up your damned roadmaps and fix this lag now, put all your incarna stuff on hold, don't abandon it, just shove it in a corner somewhere and devote more manpower to fixing this game.
Because in 18 months ccp, you won't have much of a playerbase left to present incarna to. Especially with the trend of the lag getting steadily worse over time like some sort of cancer.
|
Zia Aiz
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Navigator I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
To get some more participation in the mass testing area, think about rewarding people with something, couple days worth of SP, a ship, ... in return for submitting a good bug report & participating on mass tests.
So you finally get the participation you need to increase the chance of finding something that fixes the lag.
|
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pennwisedom
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
Whether that is true or not, logically, one does not suggest the other.
I didn't get that. Do you mean to say that my use of the English language is flawed, or my logical reasoning is flawed?
All I meant to say was that when a lot of requests are refused due to technical reasons, even simple ones, that is often caused by a codebase that is not in perfect shape.
And yes I do know my use of the English language leaves much to be desired. My apologies for being born outside the UK.
|
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil Many issues put forth by players or the CSM has been declined, with the argument that it would require a complete rewrite. That generally suggests to me that the codebase is not in such a great shape.
I don't think it necessarily follows that the code is a mess if a given suggested change would require a complete rewrite. Granted, poor documentation can make editions to code almost completely infeasible, as can indecypherable code written by a former employee. It'd turn a system into a complete black box that nobody wants to touch, necessitating a completely new system to be built if any change is required. But the need for a rewrite can also be due to built-in limitations in the technologies CCP are using. The sound engine, for example, might be a library they bought a license to years ago that someone else developed. In this hypothetical scenario, they'd then be limited to whatever interface the guy who developed that library saw fit to include. Back in 2003, true binaural sound might not have been computationally feasible in realtime and so might have been left out of the sound API. Without the library's source code, CCP would be unable to add that feature. The alternative would be a complete rewrite of a new sound engine, but that would reqire a lot of work.
As a programmer (albiet having only worked on academic projects and my own personal projects), I can tell you that a complete rewrite of something big can be a dreaded experience. You essentially discard months or years of previous work in the hopes that your new version is worth the effort of complete redevelopment. You'd be very wary of wasting development resources on something with not enough tangible benefit. It's a really hard decision to make even when the only resource is your own spare time, I can't imagine what it must be like to be allocating development resources measured in cash. If there were a really good reason to do a rewrite of something like the sound engine, they'd probably do it. But it'd probably need to be some amazing new super-ear-orgasm-9000 technology being released.
If a rewrite is done well, ideally you would hardly notice the difference in the end product at all but there'd be months or years of work put into it. It can be done to take advantage of a new technology or to provide extensibility options for future development. For example, CCP might rewrite their entire content pipeline to take advantage of some new compression technique and we wouldn't see a difference, but the workload to do that could be huge. Rewrites take up such a disproportionately large amount of development resources and time compared to the visible results that there had better be a damn good reason for them. If it's just for something the players perceieve as a minor improvement, it's got to be hard to justify expending all those resources on it.
A good example of rewrites gone bad would be Duke Nukem Forever. They completely rewrote the game several times, each time because the guy in charge found a new rendering engine he thought would be better. They went through several complete rewrites, going from the Quake 2 engine to the Unreal engine, to others. Each time, they believed the extra time spent in re-developing all the existing game features under a new engine would be worth it because the engine provided them with much better features for further development. But each time, they spent years developing and a new engine would be released in the mean time. Word on the street is that CCP has done several rewrites of Incarna so far, which would explain why it's been in heavy development for years.
|
|
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:09:00 -
[31]
What? CCP's coding not being full of comments to help make it easier to work with. What a proposterous suggestion.
|
Pennwisedom
Gallente Sublime.
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:11:00 -
[32]
I am saying that logically a rewrite being necessary does not really say that much about the code. It depends a lot more on what the request is, and there are a lot of requests that do not seem like they'd be something that would be easily able to be slotted in somewhere because they talk about large design changes.
|
SkinSin
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: CCP Navigator It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
But then it's not difficult to say what you intend to fix, or what you are trying to fix, and give updates on that, even if those updates means you saying that the fix was withdrawn due to issue X, Y, or Z. Sure people might get a bit upset, but quite frankly, they'd be a lot less upset than they are at the moment.
|
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 14:48:00 -
[34]
Thanks to Penwise and Nyphur for the comments.
And sorry Penwise for being a bit defensive there.
I do agree that my conclusion is mostly guesswork. As I said we dont know the details. Although even if the code is in great shape, if simple features can't be improved upon for technical reasons I'd say that is a practical problem. In that case it doesn't really matter if the code is nice and tidy or a complete mess - the end result is the same.
|
Frug
Omega Wing
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 15:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: Cailais
Originally by: CCP Navigator They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed.
True Zulu did state that "In the 2011 winter expansion weæll certainly focus more than ever before on iterating and polishing up all the features that EVE has expanded to in the then eight years".
When does that "Winter 2011" period commence though? January 2011, or December 2011? - there's a big difference.
C.
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
And yet in over 3 years, the overview bugs people have been petitioning since time immemorial have never been addressed.
Hearing about lists of changes and reading devblogs about how things will get better has gotten really old when we can see backlogged issues that are years old. I'm sure the majority of the gameplay issues people have are nowhere near being touched.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Jason1138
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 16:28:00 -
[36]
you guys could not be doing a worse job of answering concerns and calming player fears if it was your stated mission to upset everyone with a subscription
|
Jack Gilligan
Caldari 1st Cavalry Division Circle-Of-Two
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 16:59:00 -
[37]
How do you achieve "excellence" when you won't commit the resources to achieve more than what most would call "mediocrity"?
Simple, you hire marketing people to spin "mediocrity is the new excellence" for you to a gaming industry press that never asks followup questions.
SOE has been doing this for years. Hate to see CCP engaging in it now, I always thought you guys were better than this.
|
Odinegras
Gallente 0utbreak Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:01:00 -
[38]
sounds like teh usual management bull**** to me, sure sign of a failing company, i give ccp 6 months before the receivers are called in..
Expanding your company too soon, much?
|
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:24:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Aerilis on 29/07/2010 17:25:17 This is getting off topic.
Thank you for the dev responses, but I want to know what specifically happened the Excellence (capital "e") focus point. The campaign with the pretty posters and the shiny video you made for it. Excellence was supposed to be CCP refocusing away from new feature and turning to improve old ones, but if anything it would seem the opposite is true.
Again--I have no interest in discussing whether CCP should fix the game or make new features--that subject has enough attention in other threads. I just want to know what happened to Excellence (capital "e").
|
sinfulangel
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aerilis Edited by: Aerilis on 29/07/2010 17:25:17 This is getting off topic.
Thank you for the dev responses, but I want to know what specifically happened the Excellence (capital "e") focus point. The campaign with the pretty posters and the shiny video you made for it. Excellence was supposed to be CCP refocusing away from new feature and turning to improve old ones, but if anything it would seem the opposite is true.
Again--I have no interest in discussing whether CCP should fix the game or make new features--that subject has enough attention in other threads. I just want to know what happened to Excellence (capital "e").
See my signature for what happened and you will understand.
|
|
oil
Double-L
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 17:56:00 -
[41]
Thanks to the managers for ruining OUR game
|
Monkey Saturday
Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:15:00 -
[42]
Hey ccp I got your excellence right here.
|
Shar Totanka
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:25:00 -
[43]
Excellence and iterative development are both are a bit self delusional on CCP's part. The developers are working hard but not on improving things in the spaceship game, things like fleet lag, planetary interaction, making low sec more interesting or even adding more content to wormholes.
All those things have huge potential in the existing game, yet nobody is working on them. Well maybe the DUST team is working on PI, but they won't be forever.
Instead CCP is working on Incarna and DUST features. Both are investments into the future of eve-online, and I get why they might make the game completely awesome 10 years from now, but they have nothing to do with the spaceship game today and in my eyes it's a waste of time.
Incarna isn't going to revolutionize eve-online. People who don't play because they don't want to be a space ship, and there are quite a few, will still not play because they'll still be a space ship everytime they leave the 3D chat and, actually, play the game. Strictly speaking of gameplay mechanics we, the existing players, won't benefit from the 3D chat either. It's not going to make access to station services faster/easier, in all likelihood it'll make the process more troublesome and slower; and if there's one thing to know about MMO players it's that they'll all take the easiest path.
Sure some players will like it, others will use it once and then never again. My guess is that it'll be tne minority who use it until it becomes possible to go directly from eve-online to dust 10 years from now when the clients have migrated.
I'd blame the marketing division though, it's their job know what the players want and make the game designers aware of it. It's pretty obvious that process has failed completely, and it'll be interesting to see where it takes CCP.
I for one doubt there will even be enough players involved in PI to make anyone want to hire a DUST corp to duke things out. :p
|
Syn Callibri
Minmatar Blacklight Incorporated
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
1) Thanks for at least alking to us Navagator +1 for you.
2) Sorry...I'll believe it when I see it...in 18 months right?
Syn Callibri Ilharess of the Scorpion Tribe
|
Flaming Lemming
Caldari Puppeteer Press
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 18:44:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Navigator I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Instead of this, which apparently has had no real results, why don't a few of you sit wherever a big fight is happening...maybe where a reinforced node has been requested, then you can see what's happening in real-game conditions? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death |
Andrea Griffin
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Flaming Lemming Instead of this, which apparently has had no real results, why don't a few of you sit wherever a big fight is happening...maybe where a reinforced node has been requested, then you can see what's happening in real-game conditions?
How do you know that it has no real results? It has been stated that these mass tests have revealed certain problems which have already been fixed. For the rest of it, they are dealing with hard problems and it takes a while to fix them. CCP has had a dedicated lag team for a while now, and they haven't kept it a secret. All the people who whine about nobody working on the problem have their heads firmly implanted in their colon.
I'm not particularly pleased with CCP's priorities either, but on this one particular point, people really should just STFU. They know. They're working on it. They HAVE been working on it. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Srialia
Misfit Toys
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 19:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Navigator It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
You'll forgive me if I call your posts pure damage control with no basis in reality. The oh-so-wonderful devblog about iterative development let us know just how few developmental resources were being spent on the problems in the current game. The tone of it was insulting at best, expressing confusion over the tone of the CSM minutes and how Zulu didn't think people were frustrated at all over being ignored in favor of new customers.
More communication is good, but if all it's going to consist of is, "Yes, you're right, we're pretty much ignoring what we have in favor of new shiny things, and we don't understand why everyone's so upset!" then I suggest you not bother at all. If you do publish more of that garbage, then don't come on the forums wondering why everyone is so angry with you.
It's also good that you will be testing more things on Sisi, but don't expect me to be impressed. This should always be happening with any sort of continuous development. Add to that the fact that all the wonderful bug fixes put into the game over the last 6 months have been "things that players will likely never notice or be affected by" when there are so many things that we've been screaming about for months or years, and I have to wonder again where your priorities are.
Let's be clear: I mostly don't blame you or the people who are actually working on the game. The entire problem is your core development philosophy, that of making new things and utterly forsaking what you already have. This is probably a management decision, and one made by people who don't care about their customers. The quote from the CSM minutes says it all: "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features." Well congratulations, I'm sure you're making roughly as much money by crapping out half-finished yet new things every 6 months as you would be if you actually improved anything about your game.
In the meantime, you're building up a mountain of customer dissatisfaction and resentment. The more you continue like this, the more people are going to take any excuse to leave. I'm looking at Guild Wars 2, myself, even though it doesn't really offer anything that eve does (the freedom this game has is really the only reason I still play). You know what they're doing? They're looking at what is, in their opinion, currently wrong with the MMO game type, and working on changing it. That's something that shouldn't be as amazing as it is, but if you and other companies are just going to continue operating under the "we got your money, now screw off" mentality, it's a remarkable thing when someone breaks the mold. Your company needs to start acting like it values its customers, because we all have a breaking point. You seem to be doing your best to find it.
One final tip for employees that actually post here. Stop fanning the flames. Zym's post panhandling for votes was insane if it was serious. If it was some sort of ironic troll, then **** all of you.
|
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
|
Posted - 2010.07.29 20:42:00 -
[48]
Reputation, much like virginity can only be lost once.
|
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 00:22:00 -
[49]
bump, I really want to know what's going on with this thing :/
|
HeliosGal
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 00:29:00 -
[50]
has there been any progress
|
|
Sneaky Noob
Ice Fire Warriors
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 01:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
Dear CCP,
After re-reading the DevBlog, I would like to point out the following:
First off, Incarna (9 teams, approximately 70 developers) + Dust 514/EVE link (1 team, approximately 7 developers) + EVE Gate (1 team, approximately 10 developers)
You, CCP have 87 people working on the new features that according to your own data, sell so well. Meanwhile you have 37 people working on issues that may (or may not) be some of the unpolished and poorly-implemented features and mechanics that have slowly sucked the life out of this game.
If Incarna is really MORE than just Dust+WiS you should publicize this fact. As it stands, the common belief is that Incarna is ONLY WiS. If you have some massive revamp of the database and code planned, let us know. Because, once again, from a players PoV, it really doesn't look like this.
In addition, I have re-read the patch notes for all the releases since Apocrypha. All of them include multiple fixes and all have a section titled "need for speed". How do you expect us to believe that you are doing your best to tackle the problem of in-game lag when every new patch and release is making the problem worse?
Re-think your objectives, re-think your strategy. Re-think your policy on new-vs-working game features. Listen to your player base. They, as much as CCP have built EVE into what it is today. They are fed up.
That is all.
The Sneakiest N00b in all of EVE -------
|
Terrigal
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 01:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Originally by: SkinSin CCP Navigator: We are fixing stuff, but I can't tell you what. Me: I did do my homework, but I'm not going to show it to you.
Just saying it and not backing it up won't make us believe you! And it's no good saying that you fix a lot of things in each patch when about half are simply spelling mistakes and are EXTREMELY easy to do and something that 99% of the player base will never spot.
On a more detailed level:
"They [CCP Explorer and CCP Soundwave] have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved."
Not only should PI have been developed and improved before release, but people's concerns on sisi should have been listened to rather than ignored! Also the minutes of the CCP/CSM meeting also state that no other existing content (e.g. faction warfare, sovereignty, cosmos missions) will be developed and improved for quite some time.
I don't expect that CCP Navigator will reply any further to this thread as CCP employees have a habit of replying multiple times and in minutes to praise threads, but completely ignoring criticisms.
It is genuinely not a case of "I know but I am not telling you." but more so a case of many defects have been reported and fixed which still require QA testing and checks for balancing before we can say that it has been done. For example, if I were to say that X was fixed and then it was not deployed due to some other issue then you guys would think I was just lying to you and that is something I do not want to do.
What I can promise you is that over the coming weeks and months you will see an increase in Dev Blogs and changes being added to Singularity for player testing. I can also promise you that you will see continued mass testing so that we can get more data to look at issues causing lag and find ways to fix it.
Navigator we already think ccp's lying to us
|
Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 10:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Every single patch and expansion comes with a huge list of fixes and changes. Having worked closely with QA and Software in creating the patch notes for Empyrean Age, Quantum Rise, Apocrypha, Dominion and Tyrannis I have seen my fair share of fixed defects which players report though the bug reporting system and those which we find internally.
Future expansions and patches will be no different. They will include features, changes and fixes as always.
Well, let me start with i love eve since i started in early 04 and its unlikely ill drop the habit anytime soon. To the current state of affairs, i do both small scale pvp and sov fighting, so i do get affected by lag and its annoying tho nothing new, certainly not a gamebreaker for me as when i have enough of it i just go do something different. I also understand that you as a company made the decision to invest more in dust and incarna as a new product, but it makes little sense to me what you are doing with the devtime that is spent on eve.
I know nothing of programming, tho i would believe that it doesnt take that many devs to tweak ship stats. If you think back to the second buff of t1 ships which made rifters and other t1 frigs more popular, it was a big deal for the whole eve community and many players still enjoy that patch. There are now a good third of all ships hardly flown at all, which in theory have very interesting roles but do not compete with better ships even in their own race in their class. The same goes for mods, as example all Domination/Republic shield and armor resistance mods have very little going for them, not much of joy to pick up those of a faction spawn wreck.
My point is, wouldnt it make sense to have a few ppl work on these balance issues, maybe with the help of the community as in leaving changes on the testserver for months to be properly discussed, and give everyone more gamecontent for a relative little price on your side? -
|
Jardos
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 10:14:00 -
[54]
The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 13:39:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
Were Dominion [terrible customer expectation management with the super carriers] and Tyrannis [the "great POS module reprocessing fiasco '10" and POSes shooting friendlies] examples of "excellence?" Speculatively, the answer to that question may also help with understanding the personnel change.
Originally by: Jardos CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
This leads to the question: For whom is the focus on "Excellence" intended?
Existing customers? Prospective customers? CCP employees? CCP investors?
The answer is looking more and more like the latter two possibilities with CCP having grown into a beast that needs to justify its monthly employee salary expenditures as well as a drive to tap into large social / console gaming markets with WiS and Dust 514.
CCP is currently walking on a razor thin ridge at this point, balancing quite a few things:
1) Very fast organizational growth. That is an exceptional challenge for most small businesses -- one that can cause all sorts of pains while the growth is taking place. Personnel changes are only one aspect of this tumultuous time.
2) Maintaining an existing product (EVE Online) whose consumers are hyper-interested in its success and highly attentive to the product's performance metrics. If EVE Online should become unavailable or perform poorly, CCP's response time to remedy the situation is measured in minutes and hours by its customers. Upkeep of this revenue stream is unrelenting. Project management related to expansions, repairs and client expectation management is also part of the challenge.
3) Producing not only two completely new aspects to EVE Online (WiS + Dust 514), the flagship product, but also producing / nurturing additional intellectual properties with their own communities, investors(?) and hurdles.
4) Unknown investor pressures and expectations. Keep in mind that CCP also answers, in-part, to the Chinese government as, last I heard, all foreign businesses with an interest in China are required to make the government a partner in their in-country ventures. The burden of being a profitable entity in Iceland where the banks recently went Tango Uniform is probably felt at the top of the food chain. The good folks at CCP may have no choice but to pursue other ventures outside of the core EVE internet spaceships to hit subscriber target numbers, regardless of cost to their current clients.
|
Giovanni DalleBandeNere
Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 14:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara ]This leads to the question: For whom is the focus on "Excellence" intended?
Existing customers? Prospective customers? CCP employees? CCP investors?
agree that's the point,and the answer, lookin at it from a mere customer(player) PoV is the last which , if we step back from our customer position, is how every company works (well at least most of them, more and more by the passing of years).
As far as i can understand (and i might be completely worng eh) CCP has grown since some years ago, and that brought in new "needs" I've personally been involved in at least 2 similar transitions (of coure have nothing to do with the gamin industry), one ended fine for the company (even if not good for myself = employee) the other ended bad for the company and for me aswell (always as empoyee), but for sure both were bad for the already existing customer base.
So from my (limited) pov if CCP decides to go the main way (gettin bigger and bigger) , they will loose a big part of their current player base (as long as every epmloyee not ready/willing to stick to that way of making business), in the hope of gettin a lot of new/fresh players...well GL CCP , and i'm not using sarcasm.
for sure as current customer i feel i have the right to point out my disappointment, and that's what happening in the "vote EVE for best EU game" thread
cya
|
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
Can a dev confirm that Zulu sacked "Excellence"?
|
Ascendic
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Jardos The answer is there was a change in EVE's Senior Producer, from CCP t0rfifrans to CCP Zulupark, which to be honest I cannot understand how that happened.
CCP t0rfifrans announced Excellence. I was there, I heard the sigh in the audience, but after the initial few seconds everybody understood the impact of that statement. And there was cheers.
CCP Zulupark changed the meaning of Excellence. And there was crying.
Can a dev confirm that Zulu sacked "Excellence"?
Sure, If he wants to be fired.
|
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Rep-X
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 16:46:00 -
[59]
We give you all this grief because we love this game. I hope you know that.
HUGS and BFF's forevah.
Originally by: F'nog
Originally by: Stareatthesun No no no ... Polaris is where CCP keeps the death star that will destroy eve when the servers shut down.
Thankfully I've got Interceptors trained to V. S |
SupaKudoRio
|
Posted - 2010.07.30 17:08:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Terrigal
Originally by: CCP Navigator -snip-
Navigator we already think ccp's already lying to us
FYP
Ye'llo? |
|
Apollo Gabriel
Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
|
Posted - 2010.07.31 02:42:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Navigator CCP Soundwave and CCP Explorer have spoken in length in the Dev Blog "Iterative development and what's happening in 2011" that fixes are still a part of any expansion or patch for EVE Online. They have also gone on to explain that features currently released will be improved and fixed. Soundwave has stated on several occasions that Planetary interaction, for example, is one of the features which is being developed and improved.
There are quite a few fixes already for the next patch and many more scheduled for the winter expansion. I do apologize that I cannot go into more detail on what these are but I can assure you that, as with every patch and expansion, that you will see many fixes and changes along with new features.
Please get someone who CAN give more details to the forum. It is time to become transparant CCP, the more you hide, the more people *STOP CARING* and that is not what you want...
Best, Apollo TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |