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Templatus
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Posted - 2010.07.29 18:58:00 -
[1]
I was thinking about making two groups of 3 HML launchers on my Tengu... however, isn't it correct that the defender missiles are fired at a volley and not a missile - meaning I would lose twice as much damage by having two groups of guns than I would with just a single group?
What if I fire the two groups of launchers at the exact same time - would that still incur a risk of having two defender missiles launched - one at each group? If that is the case, I don't suppose it's a good idea to divide up the launchers for PvE.
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Seith Silverstein
Something Rotten
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Seith Silverstein on 29/07/2010 19:20:26 THIS IS SPECULATION! INFORMED SPECULATION, BUT SPECULATION NONE-THE-LESS!
For any missile smaller than Torpedoes, it doesn't matter if you're stacked or unstacked. A defender will either kill 1 missile (unstacked) or 1 missile worth of damage (stacked). However, for Torpedoes, a defender doesn't destroy the missile in one hit. Thus, unstacked torpedoes take 4 Defenders to lower the damage (IE destroy a Torpedo), but if you STACK your Torpedo launchers, it will remove 1/4 of 1 Torpedo's worth of damage for every defender hit. So if you anticipate less than 4 Defender hits on your volleys before impact, don't group your Torpedoes.
That, however, has nothing to do with your Tengu. You can group them or seperate them to your heart's content.
Originally by: CCP Soundwave I am literally the internet
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Khai'ne
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:38:00 -
[3]
You will waste more missiles with stacked launchers, but that's probably not really a concern. |
Templatus
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:38:00 -
[4]
I just figured that the defender missiles would fire upon an incoming missile (or volley of missiles) at a random chance. Let's say 16%. So if I fire 6 separate launchers, each missile would have a 16% chance of being intercepted by a defender missile. If I group the 6 launchers, then the volley would only have a 16% chance of being intercepted - meaning the damage lost would be considerably less.
This is just how I thought it worked. But I may be wrong.
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:51:00 -
[5]
This is my unscientific and unproven observation:
Without regard to defender missiles specifically, grouping missiles into one big glob seems to increase the time to kill for some ships in my Nighthawk, especially against NPCs with strong tanks like high bounty battleships and elite cruisers.
I have 3 sets of 2 launchers. Against regular cruisers and battle cruisers it seems to matter less but against strong tankers I prefer F1,F2, F3. Try it for your self against tough ships. The time between launches (rof) of one big blob of missiles seems to give some ships time to get in extra reps so they die slower.
Or I could be wrong and just like the pretty stream of missiles.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
CONCORD4U
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:00:00 -
[6]
At start I didn't group my missile launchers. Like a small child I enjoyed the rain of rockets landing on my opponents. Eventhough the DPS didn't change a single bit it felt like I hurt them much better with a rocket hitting every 0.4 seconds.
As for the missiles hitting a volley that is not completely correct. The rats (as far as I observed) also have a set rate of fire. So it could be that it hits a volley each time with a defender, but didn't launch say once in every 6 volleys. So if you group your guns into 2 groups of three, the rat won't suddenly shoot 2 defender missiles in return.
So in theory it shouldn't matter if you choose to make 2 groups.
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Gecko O'Bac
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Gecko O''Bac on 30/07/2010 13:22:56
Originally by: CONCORD4U At start I didn't group my missile launchers. Like a small child I enjoyed the rain of rockets landing on my opponents. Eventhough the DPS didn't change a single bit it felt like I hurt them much better with a rocket hitting every 0.4 seconds.
As for the missiles hitting a volley that is not completely correct. The rats (as far as I observed) also have a set rate of fire. So it could be that it hits a volley each time with a defender, but didn't launch say once in every 6 volleys. So if you group your guns into 2 groups of three, the rat won't suddenly shoot 2 defender missiles in return.
So in theory it shouldn't matter if you choose to make 2 groups.
Actually I'm quite sure this is, at least in part, incorrect. Npc defender launch is chance based, of that I'm sure. I think it's chance based per volley launched, of this I'm not sure though. The reason for this is that I observed a single rat launch MULTIPLE (as in, 4+) defenders while attacked with fighter bombers from a supercarrier.
Now, the problem is: the chance may be per attacker, so at most you get one defender every x secs for each attacker. Not sure about this.
EDIT: So your best bet is keeping them grouped. Even with a tengu you will have a hard time oneshotting frigs/cruisers, so the amount of overkill (and thus wasted missiles) isn't great.
About grouping vs dps= the dps remains unchanged. Rep chance on the npcs is on a timer so you MAY get one rep every x secs (which probably is how defenders work as well now that I think about it). The HP indicator is buffered though, so if you have a steady stream of damage you won't *see* the rep, but it was there nevertheless.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.07.30 13:22:00 -
[8]
It makes zero difference for your damage. When CCP made the weapon grouping change they empathized that all guns would still be calculated separately and that defenders killing a missile in a group would detract exactly the % of damage from group that the missile represented. NPC defender amount is still determined by number of tubes launched, same as before .. if you experience something different then it is a statistical anomaly.
The only thing you should consider when arranging groups is whether or not you benefit from 2-3 so that you can minimize the 'downtime' when switching targets.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.31 03:04:00 -
[9]
Some wrong info in this thread. Please read the dev blog on grouping, especially the part on missiles.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.31 08:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida It makes zero difference for your damage. When CCP made the weapon grouping change they empathized that all guns would still be calculated separately and that defenders killing a missile in a group would detract exactly the % of damage from group that the missile represented. NPC defender amount is still determined by number of tubes launched, same as before .. if you experience something different then it is a statistical anomaly.
The only thing you should consider when arranging groups is whether or not you benefit from 2-3 so that you can minimize the 'downtime' when switching targets.
That is not true (granted just like most in this topic).
NPC defender chance is from my experience significantly larger for 7 grouped CNR missiles than for a single one. However nowhere near 7 times larger; that would mean on average more than one defender would be fired on 7 grouped missile by for example many serpentis ships, npcs never shoot more than one defender, and still often dont shoot any defenders on my group of 7 missiles.
If it hits it indeed removes one missile damage, but the total amount of defenders launched against grouped launchers is WAAAYYYY lower. Downside is you do more overkill.
Also torps are not affected by npc defenders. One defender missile cant destroy a torp, and npcs again never shoot more than one defender on a missile.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.07.31 10:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Furb Killer NPC defender chance is from my experience significantly larger for 7 grouped CNR missiles than for a single one...
I am fairly sure that defenders operate in a similar way to all NPC effects, ie. a static chance per instance/cycle .. in the case of missiles that would be per round launched. If so then any perceived increase/decrease in defenders launched based on grouping is as I said a statistical anomaly.
There was a post made by a Dev on the subject in the weeks following the grouping patch but I'll be damned if I can find it.
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CAPSLOCKBROKE
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.02 19:27:00 -
[12]
looks cooler unstacked.
Also, try a Harbinger with all 7 ammo types loaded at once. Looks pretty cool.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CAPSLOCK, BECAUSE SOMETIMES REGULAR FONT JUST, ISN'T, GOOD ENOUGH. |
Sjugar
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Posted - 2010.08.02 20:16:00 -
[13]
Outside the defender missile debate:
You could push out a bit more dps if you ungroup your missiles. I have this with my cruise raven. If a ship is in hull and 3 missiles would do the job, why fire your entire volley of 6? You could use 3 of those to already start shooting something else.
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Red Johnson
A1T0. Unlimited
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Posted - 2010.08.03 02:00:00 -
[14]
Ummm, I believe defenders are only able to take out a certain, we'll just call it "x". And when you group, you get a larger "x" So, the defender only drops one of the missiles. At least when I had a missile char, it seemed that way. Still like the guy above me said...
If you group, you waste more ammo.
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Sjugar
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Posted - 2010.08.03 05:26:00 -
[15]
It can actually be quite huge.
What I often encounter are rats that I can almost 1-shot. Killing 2 of those rats if my missiles are grouped will take me 4 volleys: 2 for the first, 2 for the second. 3 If my weapons are ungrouped it will take me 3, 1,5 for the first and 1,5 for the second.
3 volleys instead of 4 is equal to a dps increase of 33.3%.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.08.03 13:00:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Templatus I just figured that the defender missiles would fire upon an incoming missile (or volley of missiles) at a random chance. Let's say 16%. So if I fire 6 separate launchers, each missile would have a 16% chance of being intercepted by a defender missile. If I group the 6 launchers, then the volley would only have a 16% chance of being intercepted - meaning the damage lost would be considerably less.
This is just how I thought it worked. But I may be wrong.
you're correct, except it's not random. the chance of defender launch is listed in the database stats of each npc that can use them. most are around 25%. the npc rolls for each missile, or once for a grouped volley. you lose less damage grouping.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2010.08.03 22:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 03/08/2010 22:13:15
Originally by: Khai'ne You will waste more missiles with stacked launchers, but that's probably not really a concern.
This is the only real disadvantage i know of. I use 3 stacks for both pve and pvp. wasting ammo is not a real concern to me and the waste is marginal.
Well unless your in pvp and you want to hog killmails you train 1 weapon on each target so that you get on all the killmails.
EDIT: Quote: Originally by: TemplatusI just figured that the defender missiles would fire upon an incoming missile (or volley of missiles) at a random chance. Let's say 16%. So if I fire 6 separate launchers, each missile would have a 16% chance of being intercepted by a defender missile. If I group the 6 launchers, then the volley would only have a 16% chance of being intercepted - meaning the damage lost would be considerably less. This is just how I thought it worked. But I may be wrong. you're correct, except it's not random. the chance of defender launch is listed in the database stats of each npc that can use them. most are around 25%. the npc rolls for each missile, or once for a grouped volley. you lose less damage grouping.
I stand corrected. two disadvantages lol.
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