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KanonKongen
Gallente Interstellar-Overdrive
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Posted - 2010.07.29 20:54:00 -
[1]
For empire lvl4 missions? which is best?
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raukosen
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:04:00 -
[2]
Vargur because it can select damage types
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: raukosen Vargur because it can select damage types
/thread
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: raukosen Vargur because it can select damage types
Depends where you mission, eh? The Vargur most certainly isn't superior vs EM weak enemies. IMO no reason not to get both. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.29 21:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: raukosen Vargur because it can select damage types
Depends where you mission, eh? The Vargur most certainly isn't superior vs EM weak enemies. IMO no reason not to get both. :)
-Liang
I'd like to have good PvE capabilities no matter where I go instead of being tied to a region. Also, as an Amarr missioner myself, I've had more than a fair share of merc/angel missions.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 22:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Torpir Lee I'd like to have good PvE capabilities no matter where I go instead of being tied to a region. Also, as an Amarr missioner myself, I've had more than a fair share of merc/angel missions.
Seems like the Golem is your choice if you really believed that. But regardless, the Paladin and Vargur are both good, with different tradeoffs. If he's missioning primarily vs EM weak or at range enemies, the Paladin (Nightmare, really) is the no-brainer choice. In either case I recommend the faction BS equivalent over the Marauder these days, except in very specific circumstances.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.29 22:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Torpir Lee on 29/07/2010 22:09:01
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Torpir Lee I'd like to have good PvE capabilities no matter where I go instead of being tied to a region. Also, as an Amarr missioner myself, I've had more than a fair share of merc/angel missions.
Seems like the Golem is your choice if you really believed that. But regardless, the Paladin and Vargur are both good, with different tradeoffs. If he's missioning primarily vs EM weak or at range enemies, the Paladin (Nightmare, really) is the no-brainer choice. In either case I recommend the faction BS equivalent over the Marauder these days, except in very specific circumstances.
-Liang
If I was choosing a ship for a missioning alt, then a Paladin would be a viable choice.
I'm looking at this situation as a main character choosing a race from a PvE standpoint. From that standpoint, your main is likely to do a lot of travelling through-out the EVE universe, and not likely at all to be living in the south-western part of the EVE-verse for the rest of his career.
Why not Caldari then? Because Caldari is not very flexible PvP wise, IMO.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 23:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Torpir Lee If I was choosing a ship for a missioning alt, then a Paladin would be a viable choice. I'm looking at this situation as a main character choosing a race from a PvE standpoint. From that standpoint, your main is likely to do a lot of travelling through-out the EVE universe, and not likely at all to be living in the south-western part of the EVE-verse for the rest of his career.
Why not? I lived in Metropolis for the last 4 years...
Quote: Why not Caldari then? Because Caldari is not very flexible PvP wise, IMO.
Um. You're dead wrong on that one, IMO. I <3 Caldari.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2010.07.29 23:04:00 -
[9]
Until CCP changes npc TDs to affect falloff, I recommend Varg/Mach even in Amarr space. Sansha and blood come in close enough that you are not losing terribly much dps from the range, and the TDs dont shut you down like they do against lasers.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 23:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elapidae Until CCP changes npc TDs to affect falloff, I recommend Varg/Mach even in Amarr space. Sansha and blood come in close enough that you are not losing terribly much dps from the range, and the TDs dont shut you down like they do against lasers.
This is true. I've been occasionally inconvenienced. But on the subject of ewar, have you ever tried fighting Guristas/Caldari State in a Vargur? Hi, I've been permajammed for the last 12 hours...
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2010.07.29 23:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liang Nuren This is true. I've been occasionally inconvenienced. But on the subject of ewar, have you ever tried fighting Guristas/Caldari State in a Vargur? Hi, I've been permajammed for the last 12 hours...
-Liang
So was the dev lying when the Marauders came out and said npc ecm was just a % and not related to sensor str, or has it been changed since?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 23:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Elapidae
Originally by: Liang Nuren This is true. I've been occasionally inconvenienced. But on the subject of ewar, have you ever tried fighting Guristas/Caldari State in a Vargur? Hi, I've been permajammed for the last 12 hours...
-Liang
So was the dev lying when the Marauders came out and said npc ecm was just a % and not related to sensor str, or has it been changed since?
The dev was (pick one, suitable to your tinfoil hat requirements): - Correct, but its been changed since - Misinformed - Trolling - Lying
This has been pretty conclusively tested, and I can definitely see the difference after putting on 2-3 ECCM's on my Vargur.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2010.07.30 05:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Elapidae Until CCP changes npc TDs to affect falloff, I recommend Varg/Mach even in Amarr space. Sansha and blood come in close enough that you are not losing terribly much dps from the range, and the TDs dont shut you down like they do against lasers.
I sorta mentioned this once aswell, but I was flamed like mad:X
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.30 05:38:00 -
[14]
Nightmare deals with TD remarkably well, specially as it doesn't happen that much. NPC TD don't affect falloff, and with tachs mine has 45km of it. That plus using UV or something midrange when the TD is particularily bad ( blockade ) seems to work ok. Really though I've not noticed TD causing any issues outside Blockade.
If you only want one, ever, never going to fly anything else, Varg is the obvious choice just for the flexible damage.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 05:41:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Von Kapiche If you only want one, ever, never going to fly anything else, Varg is the obvious choice just for the flexible damage.
Seriously, you don't want the Vargur. You want the Mach. The Vargur has too many problems with jamming, kinda sucks vs kin weak enemies, and literally has less DPS. The only reason I can imagine you would want to use a Vargur is because all you do is farm anti-faction missions and need to take the time to pick up your tags... and we all know how profitable *THAT* is ::cough-0.0-pirate-missions-cough::
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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KanonKongen
Gallente Interstellar-Overdrive
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Posted - 2010.07.30 05:58:00 -
[16]
machariel might be the question..
what about a simple ishtar?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 06:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: KanonKongen machariel might be the question..
what about a simple ishtar?
I dislike the Ishtar for missioning as much as I like it for ratting. It just doesn't put out enough DPS to be better than either of the Marauders. I suppose you can do the "full aggro and drone" approach, but that tends to cut pretty heavily into your ISK/hr. It makes up for it by being able to go for more hours, but I've typically been able to outdo a whole day's missioning in an hour or two so...
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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SMAGME
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.30 09:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Seriously, you don't want the Vargur. You want the Mach. The Vargur has too many problems with jamming, kinda sucks vs kin weak enemies, and literally has less DPS.
I mostly got to agree. The varg does a good job in minmatar space - less jamming problems and you get to salvage large angel wrecks as you go. The difference in dps between the machariel and vargur is some 5%. And the vargur tanks better then the mach - tho that is really not significant with these ships as their gank is the tank. I am guessing that one makes a little more isk/hour with the salvage large wrecks as you go then with the 5% dps in minmatar space...
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.30 14:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: SMAGME
I mostly got to agree. The varg does a good job in minmatar space - less jamming problems and you get to salvage large angel wrecks as you go. The difference in dps between the machariel and vargur is some 5%. And the vargur tanks better then the mach - tho that is really not significant with these ships as their gank is the tank. I am guessing that one makes a little more isk/hour with the salvage large wrecks as you go then with the 5% dps in minmatar space...
That's roughly been my experience. It hadn't occurred to me that the reason the Mach and Vargur are neck and neck for me was that Angels actually have worthwhile salvage. (At least the trit bars and armor plates.)
I can see the Mach edging the Vargur out slightly in most other circumstances though. It's also more fun to fly. Choices choices.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.30 17:32:00 -
[20]
RE Vargur vs Mach: well I thought I'd probably better answer the actual question asked in the OP for once :P as a Mach pilot since Dominion I've never felt the need to get a Vargur instead, and aside from some crazy wormhole fit I probably wouldn't ever. I do occasionally consider a Paladin instead of my NM though, if only for the pretty considerable amount of armour plates Sanshas + Bloods drop.
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Elapidae
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Posted - 2010.07.30 21:01:00 -
[21]
Don't forget the much longer lock range and number of locked targets you get in Vargur instead of Mach. Also you may do a bit less paper dps, but that tracking bonus is far too easy to ignore in comparisons, although its benefit depends on the faction you are shooting. (Guristas at long range not so useful, angel at close yes its noticable.)
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Hianara
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Posted - 2010.07.30 22:29:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Hianara on 30/07/2010 22:31:03 My .2 isk on Vargur vs Mach...
Drones and mobility.
I am currently in a Maelstrom waiting for isk and skills for a Vargur or Mach and has done some extensive EFT-warrioring to compare the two.
They are different, at least as far as I would utilize them. Unfourtunately counterproductively so.
The Mach has a substantially larger drone bay, and a bit more bandwidth. This allows for 3 sentries after having made room for the 'frig-killers' (I prefer medium drones for that). Those sentries can add some 150+ dps to just using guns.
The Vargur only has 75 bandwidth and bay, and as such can only field one sentry drone, unless you want to downgrade to lights.
This furthers the dps difference between the two, making it significant.
The problem with sentries are that they make you "stay in place". You can orbit them closely, but you really want to stand still in order to be able to scoop them, should they be targeted. If you stand still, you want a lot more tank than if you're mobile. And the Vargur is the better tank, improved further if you forego an AB. The Mach is made for speed and doesn't really have this option...
...on the other hand, speed makes it easier to keep your enemy in the sweet spot. Reducing the need for tank.
I guees my .2 isk are a decided 'uuaaahhhhh, I don't know!' Still, it's fun speculating.
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2010.07.30 22:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hianara Edited by: Hianara on 30/07/2010 22:31:03 My .2 isk on Vargur vs Mach...
Drones and mobility.
I am currently in a Maelstrom waiting for isk and skills for a Vargur or Mach and has done some extensive EFT-warrioring to compare the two.
They are different, at least as far as I would utilize them. Unfourtunately counterproductively so.
The Mach has a substantially larger drone bay, and a bit more bandwidth. This allows for 3 sentries after having made room for the 'frig-killers' (I prefer medium drones for that). Those sentries can add some 150+ dps to just using guns.
The Vargur only has 75 bandwidth and bay, and as such can only field one sentry drone, unless you want to downgrade to lights.
This furthers the dps difference between the two, making it significant.
The problem with sentries are that they make you "stay in place". You can orbit them closely, but you really want to stand still in order to be able to scoop them, should they be targeted. If you stand still, you want a lot more tank than if you're mobile. And the Vargur is the better tank, improved further if you forego an AB. The Mach is made for speed and doesn't really have this option...
...on the other hand, speed makes it easier to keep your enemy in the sweet spot. Reducing the need for tank.
I guees my .2 isk are a decided 'uuaaahhhhh, I don't know!' Still, it's fun speculating.
light drones are way better at taking down frigs than medium drones, as for the mach. use a flight of lights for frigs and 2med 3 heavy combo for anything else, just send them on targets you ain't attacking or let them roam around freely.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 22:58:00 -
[24]
Disclaimer: I use the Vargur because I'm in one of those situations that require a Vargur over the Mach.
I tend to try to pop all the frigates with my guns while they're on approach. Any frigates that survive get pretty quickly eaten by my medium or light drones while I go after everything else. It's basically not necessary to have "frigate defense" with a Vargur. Seeing as how I also AB all over the place trying to get in range of my triple tractor beams, sentries wouldn't work so great either.
I'm usually able to tank full room aggro with a LSB II and 3 hardeners as my only tank. Occasionally I switch out my TC for a SBA for Blockade (for example). But.. last blockade I got down to 10% cap and 13% shields... I should really get a Pithum A-Type MSB + 2 DG Invulns.... and a Pith A-Type EM hardener. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.31 02:12:00 -
[25]
And as a Mach pilot... drones tend to get used for destroyers and extra damage. Frigs get popped asap with guns because they take a relatively long time to kill with drones ( might say something about how silly the ship is ) and it's far far too mobile to want to use sentries. You get what, another 80 dps or so, but when you're looking at over 1200 with mediums ( and thats my skills rather than all V ) there are other considerations that might have a bigger effect on your mission times, like not having to go back to pick your immobile crap up.
Similarily with heavies, you end up with them spending most of their time moving between whichever ships you're currently demolishing, and not having the effect the numbers might be suggesting.
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