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Julia Reave
J-Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.31 14:42:00 -
[1]
...that polished quality sells better than new features."
Source:
http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2010/CSM_CCP_Meetings_23-25_06_2010.pdf
Nothing to add to what has already been said in countless other threads (this one http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1360067 being my favorite.)
Just one question: What data?
P.S.: I wonder how long till "the data" supports exactly that.
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Nobzy
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Posted - 2010.07.31 14:47:00 -
[2]
Yeah it's actually a valid question.
It's not like they have tried to make a polishing expansion in the past that they could compare to.
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2010.07.31 14:54:00 -
[3]
I don't think this is seriously even questioned in the industry.
New features gets you press attention, it attracts new players, it keeps a certain percentage of your existing playerbase around to learn the new features being released (who would otherwise leave from boredom).
"Polish" is seldom something that changes someone's mind from "I'm leaving" to "I'm staying"; it gets no press; it doesn't attract many players. By definition, polish only improves upon existing features and gameplay. People who like the existing features and gameplays typically stay even while *****ing at development to make the things they like better.
That being said - there is a big difference between "polish" and "fixing something that is broken". Right now, people aren't asking for lag to get some "polish" -- they're saying its flat out broken. Broken gameplay will cost players, will garner negative press, and scares folks away ("Eve looks cool, but I hear you can't even have a proper fleet fight. Why train for years to get there if it doesn't even work?").
Of course, if the main thrust of Eve is moving away from in-space combat to a full-on space sim, then perhaps CCP is willing to let the massive fleet fights go. Similarly, perhaps they just *can't* fix the lag (hence they are placign more importance for the non-lag inducing aspects of the game).
Ultimately, I don't know. I don't even do large scale fleet fights.
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Toanfoal
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.31 15:10:00 -
[4]
Amazing that this could even be a question.
Look at Blizzard. Honda / Toyota. I'd be willing to bet that a significant difference between nearly every "good" company and every "great" company is polish.
But you're right about fleet lag. The rest of the game basically works, it's just full of polish problems, but fleet lag is simply a broken feature.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Temporal Mechanics
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Posted - 2010.07.31 15:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Similarly, perhaps they just *can't* fix the lag...
This...
I wonder 2 things. One, they can't fix the lag because some change they did caused more to affect the game from an outside source. Two, they can fix the lag but at a huge expense they can't or don't want to commit...
Then again what do I know???
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Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.31 15:25:00 -
[6]
Don't forget the license fee. That is another major incentive to push for new interest - effectively making a new player (initially) worth twice as much to CCP as an existing subscriber.
That said I'm convinced the emphasis is on balance. EVE is not a game that lends itself to short term-ism. You have to play the game for some time to 'get' in to it and CCP is fully aware of that. If you consider all the different aspects of the game and the community and the niche market it occupies it really is a nonsense to presuppose CCP does not care about retention.
EVE is not WoW. Nothing relevant to that business model is relevant to EVE. Incarna and ambulation are not CCP's attempt to become WoW. Merely to enhance EVE for posterity and provide a more rounded experience in the form of the 'Science Fiction Simulator'. That vision has been espoused by leading figures like Torfi for a long time now. To me that's not treachery or betrayal, its indicative of a long term vision and a desire to progress the concept and the experience to new levels. That is a vague prospect and we have vague details of how the company intends to get the game to those heights but the fact they have an economic and visionary contingency is key to appreciating that EVE has a bright future.
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Mu'n Hurricane
Minmatar Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2010.07.31 15:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Mu''n Hurricane on 31/07/2010 15:42:54 "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features."
It would be fun if game review sites will get that nice piece of official CCP policy. Priority to what sells better - new stuff. Trying to make new stuff work right - no. Just introduce more new stuff. Players get new features, features will be bugged, features will be left not-fixed. This will be very informative and interesting for new customers ;)
The 14.30-15.30 part is that part ;)
It will be double fun after that civil damage control from CCP - http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=257782.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.31 16:40:00 -
[8]
I know that there are a good number of friends I have that I would like to introduce to the game.
I can't with any sense of honor, press them to join the game while it is not funtioning at the level of moderate to larger fleet fights which are what really wet their interst.
The notion of hundreds of people spread across the continents of the world converging in real time in an army with seperate roles, chains of command etc is incredibly dynamic.
The idea that the building of a war machince and political entity over months upon months of cooperation usng skills amassed over months of smaller squirmishes will determine the outcome makes the whole notion seem farm more dramtic than any other game.
But when at the end all the prepartions and skill and unumbers of the armies ammassed are more often or not irrlelevant.. when it come down to whether or not screens load for one army or another it makes a mokery of all the efforts and play that led us to that point.
I keep figuring that they'll tweek the rules so that neither side is dramatically disadvantagte by malfunction and raise the threshold of the size of fleets that do function.
Until then I'd be a pretty disloyal friend to introduce them to a game theat they will find out is broken after they spend months getting vested in it.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.07.31 16:50:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso ...
I can't with any sense of honor, press them to join the game while it is not funtioning at the level of moderate to larger fleet fights which are what really wet their interst.
...
/signed.
When paying customers feel like they can't recommend the product for which they are paying then something is awry. That is a powerful marketing potential removed from the tools that CCP has on-hand to maintain and improve revenue. And what is worse are paying customers who specifically tell their friends that EVE isn't worth checking out at this point.
Give your customers good reason to recommend a great game again, CCP.
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Ragnar Virulence
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Posted - 2010.07.31 16:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso I know that there are a good number of friends I have that I would like to introduce to the game.
I can't with any sense of honor, press them to join the game while it is not funtioning at the level of moderate to larger fleet fights which are what really wet their interst.
This is how I feel, too. I'd love to get more of my gaming buddies playing Eve but right now they'd likely quit before their trial ended.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.07.31 17:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nobzy Yeah it's actually a valid question.
It's not like they have tried to make a polishing expansion in the past that they could compare to.
Actually thats not quite right, i remember atleast one where they reviewed all shiptypes, especially t1 frigs and cruisers with the outcome that rifters and its counterparts are much more used even today, also the sacrilege got boosted like many other ships. Dunno when when exactly that was tho. -
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.07.31 17:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Julia Reave
Just one question: What data?
P.S.: I wonder how long till "the data" supports exactly that.
The data you are looking for is sales in a nut shell.
I used to run my own internet marketing company in which I sold subscriptions to various things as both one time sales and recurring payments.
You can likely break down EVE as a recurring payment system because the goal is to convert 2 week trial memberships into paying monthly subscriptions. The bean counters at CCP have obviously done the number crunching to figure out what the "average" player is "worth" to them in monthly subscriptions.
This worth is essentially how long the average player sticks around. The bean counters have likely come to the conclusion that the average player only stay in game X amount of time making anyone whom stays longer the minority.
When looking at their profits they essentially have two incomes sources. The existing long term player base which is the minority and the constant influx of new players that have a high turn over but still likely generate the most profit.
Added to this it's much harder to grow your income on long term sales but much easier to grow via short term sales. Meaning you are always more likely to convert 2 week trials to a paying customer for a few months vs convert that 2 to 3 month subscription to a year or more.
It's basically a numbers game and that's what CCP has started playing. Unfortunately the bean counters likely didn't count on the fact that the player base would become very unhappy at this new direction CCP has taken in the last year or so.
They likely assumed that the sales lost to un-satisfied customers from the various problems could easily be countered by sheer amount of new sales from the new shiny stuff. Unfortunately what they didn't have stats on is the fact that it's the players that make this game what it is and not the new shiny stuff.
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Apollo Gabriel
Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.07.31 17:23:00 -
[13]
Let's be really clear:
IF Incarna is released and is TOTALLY AWESOME and Dust is released and is TOTALLY AWESOME ...
but no one is around to explain how to actually use the contract system, or to do courier missions to low sec, or ...
if WE are not here to teach new people ... the data will not support CCP's existence.
Peace, Apollo TO CCP: The implicit promise of polished quality keeps me playing through the rough times. Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.07.31 17:42:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 31/07/2010 17:43:58
Originally by: Julia Reave Just one question: What data?
Data produced by some... SCAMMERS!!! Hahahhaha!
Sorry, that wont be reimbursed..
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motomysz
Nexus Advanced Technologies Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.07.31 17:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: motomysz on 31/07/2010 18:00:05
Originally by: Ralnik
You can likely break down EVE as a recurring payment system because the goal is to convert 2 week trial memberships into paying monthly subscriptions. The bean counters at CCP have obviously done the number crunching to figure out what the "average" player is "worth" to them in monthly subscriptions.
This worth is essentially how long the average player sticks around. The bean counters have likely come to the conclusion that the average player only stay in game X amount of time making anyone whom stays longer the minority.
CCP released some data a while back which said that the average Eve player (since release) stays seven months. Not super relevant, just figured I'd throw it out there since it's a neat bit of trivia, and was brought up.
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rootimus maximus
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.07.31 18:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: motomysz CCP released some data a while back which said that the average Eve player (since release) stays seven months.
If that's true, I wonder how much longer would they stay if we got the mother of all fix & polish patches?
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Aessoroz
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Posted - 2010.07.31 18:06:00 -
[17]
I would have to say it's because for CCP, polishing features takes decades compared to other companies where it's a simple tweak, some playtesting and go, let the players destroys themselves, tweak it some more if need be.
If CCP wants to sell better,they need to seriously improve things for new players, right now 90% quit becasue they think mining is the only way to make isk.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.07.31 18:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: motomysz Edited by: motomysz on 31/07/2010 18:00:05
Originally by: Ralnik
You can likely break down EVE as a recurring payment system because the goal is to convert 2 week trial memberships into paying monthly subscriptions. The bean counters at CCP have obviously done the number crunching to figure out what the "average" player is "worth" to them in monthly subscriptions.
This worth is essentially how long the average player sticks around. The bean counters have likely come to the conclusion that the average player only stay in game X amount of time making anyone whom stays longer the minority.
CCP released some data a while back which said that the average Eve player (since release) stays seven months. Not super relevant, just figured I'd throw it out there since it's a neat bit of trivia, and was brought up.
The question is how much shorter would the average for new players be if there weren't as many players who played for years. I'd have left during the trial if I hadn't felt this was a persistent virtual universe that kept smart adults interested for years.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.07.31 18:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Julia Reave Just one question: What data?
The financial bottom line of EA games, for instance.
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.07.31 19:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Diomedes Calypso
The question is how much shorter would the average for new players be if there weren't as many players who played for years. I'd have left during the trial if I hadn't felt this was a persistent virtual universe that kept smart adults interested for years.
See this is the key part that doesn't fit into anything that falls under bean counters stats. EVE is a video game but it's also a social networking community.
The health of the community will always dictate the health of this game and vice versa. CCP needs to rethink their strategy to understand this, other wise this current little up rising from the un-happy vocal minority, will eventually carry over to the rest of the community as well.
I've done a lot with social network stuff, and one thing that has always been true, is the user base of these social networks are "transient". The current FoTM networking site can change many times but it's the same user base that moves on to the new hottest thing.
EVE has held on to their social network in this game because players were for the most part generally happy. This new direction CCP is taking of ignoring their player base can eventually be the thing that kills this game if the player base decides to go elsewhere due to CCP ignoring them.
Think of how MySpace was the hot thing for a long time, then it became Facebook, Twitter ect.ect. It doesn't have to be one game that ultimately bleeds away the player base, but many smaller ones can have the same result if the player base becomes unhappy with the current state of the game.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.31 19:32:00 -
[21]
Here is what I believe (to play the devil's advocate here).
Over the previous years when there have been relatively content-poor patches the community has raged on about how certain patches have been less than inspirational. And with every content-rich patch the game has had increases in the amount of subscribers and beaten the total users connected to Tranquility. Where I believe the discrepancy between the perception from CCP lies is that players aren't against content patches as such, but instead want finished content that reach the self-imposed values of 'excellence' that CCP have marketed (or peddled if you will). It seems instead that the users are more prepared to wait for content yet quality-rich patches rather than have half-arsed content patches that end up to drown in the time oblivion and never get fixed or receive continued work.
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Excessum Messor
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Posted - 2010.07.31 20:06:00 -
[22]
I believe the lack of hundreds vs hundreds fleet battle reports was an indication people don't even play this game how it real should be played.
Numbers of ships exploding per hour is very low.
Stick piles of ships building in hangers at levels of ridiculous
Lag issue is going away through aversion to fight period.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.31 20:27:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spurty I believe the lack of hundreds vs hundreds fleet battle reports was an indication people don't even play this game how it real should be played.
Numbers of ships exploding per hour is very low.
Stick piles of ships building in hangers at levels of ridiculous
Lag issue is going away through aversion to fight period.
Faction war overtook nullsec as the top destroyer of ships long before dominion launched. Look on the map with the ships destroyed filter selected and you can see the huge discrepancy. Even supercaps are getting used and lost in fw regularly now so your opinion of the overall state of eves economy are grossly untrue.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.31 20:58:00 -
[24]
Ladies and Gentlemen, how many of you have played a little game called Guild Wars? It was broken at release and remains broken to this day. There are over a million accounts and GWII is one of the most anticipated games. Starcraft II was #1 of course. They released 3 pay for expansions on top of a broken z axis. I don't mean broken like things in EvE, I mean broken 100% z axis. Released with known exploits that went on for years afterwards.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the comment made by CCP is supported by the real world.
It sucks but its true. I hope the fix large fleet lag asap, but at least they have a team on it. GW did not even attempt to fix the broken Z axis or the solo farming exploits. This is clearly a signature. |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.07.31 22:30:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 31/07/2010 22:32:04 Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 31/07/2010 22:30:29
Originally by: Cipher Jones There is no doubt whatsoever that the comment made by CCP is supported by the real world.
That is untrue. The comment is very much disputed.
I was personally involved in business with a software company where exactly the same question - "new features or polished quality" came up.
In that case, if the company would have gone with "new features" at the expense of "polished quality", the company would have ceased to exist.
After pressure from the customers that company adopted the "polished quality" approach. That was about 8 years ago.
The company is still very successful, alive and kicking now. In fact, due to the quality of their product, they are beginning to push the competition to the side.
As an interesting sidenote: CCP, is one of the customers of that software company.
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Stitcher
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.07.31 22:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Originally by: Cipher Jones There is no doubt whatsoever that the comment made by CCP is supported by the real world.
That is untrue. The comment is very much disputed.
I was personally involved in business with a software company where exactly the same question - "new features or polished quality" came up.
In that case...
Anecdotal experience and statistically significant data are two very different things. MMOs have been around for longer than the MMORPG acronym has. The data available on what sells and what doesn't amounts to a small mountain, and has been gathered from a sample of millions of paying customers.
Your personal experience, in short, is contrary to the norm. That's fine, but you can't build sensible business decisions on a few anecdotal minority reports when the bulk of the evidence goes against said reports. -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.07.31 22:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Stitcher ...Your personal experience, in short, is contrary to the norm...
Not realy. The case I am talking about is not an mmorpg however.
The question here would be: Is there any mmorpg producer who goes mainly by the "polished quality" doctrine?
That question is important, because if none does follow the "polished quality" doctrine - then all the mountains of data supporting the "new features" way are worthless.
Why? Because there is no comparision data as to how the other apporach would go.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.31 23:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Originally by: Cipher Jones There is no doubt whatsoever that the comment made by CCP is supported by the real world.
That is untrue. The comment is very much disputed.
I was personally involved in business with a software company where exactly the same question - "new features or polished quality" came up.
In that case...
Anecdotal experience and statistically significant data are two very different things. MMOs have been around for longer than the MMORPG acronym has. The data available on what sells and what doesn't amounts to a small mountain, and has been gathered from a sample of millions of paying customers.
Your personal experience, in short, is contrary to the norm. That's fine, but you can't build sensible business decisions on a few anecdotal minority reports when the bulk of the evidence goes against said reports.
I am quite sure that CCP had better research than "Anet did it", however it remains a valid real world example. I came to the same conclusion as CCP based on my experience with other games I have played, so where is the data that suggests otherwise? Or is it just opinions?
This is clearly a signature. |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.07.31 23:37:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 31/07/2010 23:44:52
Originally by: Cipher Jones I am quite sure that CCP had better research than "Anet did it", however it remains a valid real world example. I came to the same conclusion as CCP based on my experience with other games I have played, so where is the data that suggests otherwise? Or is it just opinions?
That is the question that started the thread I guess. Where is the data?
The data that would be intersting to see is sales/growth etc. of mmorpgs that are more "new feature" oriented vs those that are more "polished quality" oriented.
(Btw, an example of successful polished quality can be found on a race simulator for the PS2 for example - that race simulator is very successful in its genere with over 11 million copies sold for the version 4 alone.)
PS.: Total sales of all versions of this title ecxeed 55 million copies So this seems like a strong example speaking in favour of "polished quality"- no?
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.07.31 23:52:00 -
[30]
Cipher and Sitcher, the ball is in your court...
Present me with data from an unpolished game that is more successful than my example of polished quality
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.31 23:54:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Is there any mmorpg producer who goes mainly by the "polished quality" doctrine?
Blizzard, although they do both. In terms of new stuff, WoW's content patches are on par (or exceed) CCP's free "expansions" and of course they release massive boxed paid expansions every few years or so. But they also expend a great deal of resourses polishing/fixing and revisiting old content. IMO, a good company will do both.
As for the doomsayers, I see a lot of talk but I don't see much walk. If (large) fleet fight lag is such a game breaker, then put your money where your mouth is and quit. Otherwise, why would CCP care? |
Stitcher
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.08.01 00:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Cipher and Sitcher, the ball is in your court...
Present me with data from an unpolished game that is more successful than my example of polished quality
What, to win an internet debate? I think you're overestimating just how much I care.
but, if you want me to cite an example - I hear EVE Online is pretty popular, and has seen consistent growth since it was first released in 2003. -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Ungnyeo
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Posted - 2010.08.01 00:31:00 -
[33]
I love it. CCP beats their chest, "This is the biggest single shard mmo IN THE UNIVERSE. We are sooooo GREAT". And then everyone cries and moans and cries some more about lag. Gee, 40k people on one shard. lag. 40k people on one shard. lag. 40k people on one shard. lag.
Does someone have to pound a nail through your head to get the point across? One shard becomes stupid after the numbers reach a certain level unless massive amounts of money is spent that then makes the game unprofitable.
Maybe it's time for more than one shard and kill the lag. |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.08.01 00:31:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 01/08/2010 00:34:43
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Cipher and Sitcher, the ball is in your court...
Present me with data from an unpolished game that is more successful than my example of polished quality
What, to win an internet debate? I think you're overestimating just how much I care.
Excuse me for taking you seriously. I am tempted to say that will not happen again
Originally by: Stitcher but, if you want me to cite an example - I hear EVE Online is pretty popular, and has seen consistent growth since it was first released in 2003.
Both, the example above your post, and my example have hugely higher sales figures than eve.
Quality tends to float to the top, if combined with good pricing and good features.
CCP has good possibilities here, but only if they respect the fact that polished quality sells.
Anyways, I am not getting paid to council CCP, so enough said.
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Ham2000
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Posted - 2010.08.01 00:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Hainnz
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Is there any mmorpg producer who goes mainly by the "polished quality" doctrine?
As for the doomsayers, I see a lot of talk but I don't see much walk. If (large) fleet fight lag is such a game breaker, then put your money where your mouth is and quit. Otherwise, why would CCP care?
Thats the thing, you wont see anyone walk away, as as soon as they are unsubscribed they no longer have any rights to post on the forum.
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Ham2000
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Posted - 2010.08.01 01:17:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ham2000 on 01/08/2010 01:19:05
Originally by: Ungnyeo I love it. CCP beats their chest, "This is the biggest single shard mmo IN THE UNIVERSE. We are sooooo GREAT". And then everyone cries and moans and cries some more about lag. Gee, 40k people on one shard. lag. 40k people on one shard. lag. 40k people on one shard. lag.
Does someone have to pound a nail through your head to get the point across? One shard becomes stupid after the numbers reach a certain level unless massive amounts of money is spent that then makes the game unprofitable.
Maybe it's time for more than one shard and kill the lag.
Well 40k are on it probably every day without problem, the problem is that the lag was introduced by a PATCH, thats the whole problem, its a software problem that was introduced, not too many people, not too few computers etc.
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Voith
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Posted - 2010.08.01 01:35:00 -
[37]
Management Studies 101: Features get customers Quality retains them.
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Stitcher
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2010.08.01 09:46:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Stitcher on 01/08/2010 09:50:44 Edited by: Stitcher on 01/08/2010 09:50:11
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 01/08/2010 00:39:14
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium Cipher and Sitcher, the ball is in your court...
Present me with data from an unpolished game that is more successful than my example of polished quality
What, to win an internet debate? I think you're overestimating just how much I care.
Excuse me for taking you seriously. I am tempted to say that will not happen again
My flippancy may have something to do with the fact that I think you're talking out of your arse.
We are discussing MMOs here, not Gran Turismo. -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2010.08.01 11:24:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Phosphorus Palladium on 01/08/2010 11:26:14
Originally by: Stitcher My flippancy may have something to do with the fact that I think you're talking out of your ...
Orly?
Funny, I had that impression about you when you mentioned mountains of data and tried to make it sound like unpolished games sell better than polished ones.
Because that is pretty
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