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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
The Racketeer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 04:21:00 -
[1]
We are a small armor plate builder in 0.0. We mine all the moon materials and do the full reaction chain all the way up to building plates. A month supply of plates go for 1.2b. The PI fuel cost in Jita is 2.2B. We can not do all of the PI fuel for all the towers being used for the mining and reactions. We are pulling down our towers until CCP gets a handle of the PI monster.
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Johnny cruz
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Posted - 2010.08.05 04:25:00 -
[2]
Translation: Competitor is exiting the market due to excess supply.
Welcome to Economics 101. Working as intended :)
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The Racketeer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 04:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: The Racketeer on 05/08/2010 04:43:10 the sale price of plates have dropped 40% over the last 6 months but we were still turning a profit. the cost of fueling towers has gone up over 100% just in the last 30 days since the introduction of PI even tho we farm up all of our ice products.
If I can not maintain a chain of towers to produce a product unless the sale price of that product goes up by 100%
or
Until I get a army of PI planet harvesters willing to sell me their PI production at half Jita prices...
What does that say about the future of t2 prices or t2 production?
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General Bezelbub
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.05 04:57:00 -
[4]
Umm, lets see...
It kinda says to me that you can't afford to make armor plates anymore. Thus, lowering supply. Assuming demand remains constant, as you/others exit market, price will go up as the stockpile of lower prices plates goes away. Allowing for a future date of which you can reenter the market and make a profit.
Now, if you were smart, you would have stocked up on pos fuel at old NPC prices and given yourself a year or 2 of operational fuel cost security. This not being the case, assuming you have isk on hand, if you know current production can not continue to produce an item at current price, then go ahead and stockpile. Buy up all the current supply, and reset price to current market conditions.
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Xearal
Minmatar TOXIC INDUSTRIES Kamikaze Project
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:10:00 -
[5]
Yes producing POS fuel is quite profitable these days, as I'm a planeteer, I love these prices. I'm making good money on everything I make, as for requiring so many toons, you're doing it wrong then. Right now, I'm producing enough U238 to keep 10 Large Posses alive ( more actually, but this gives me an oopsie margin ). With a couple mor people like me added in the chain, our alliance will be able to keep 10 large moon mining posses up and produce everything we need for our manufacturing.
Basicly, since the situation for you is untenable, that means your product is too cheap, so increase their price. if it doesn't sell stockpile until those prices rise.
<a href="https://eve-search.com/externalLink.asp?l=http%3A%2F%2Frumandmonkey%2Ecom%2Fwidgets%2Ftoys%2Ftestgen%2F6199%2F"><img src="http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25764.jpg" title="Industrialist with teeth" alt="Industrialist with teeth" border="0" |
The Racketeer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:10:00 -
[6]
What does that say about the future of t2 prices or t2 production?
are ships going to slowly end up going up by 40-80% before they level off as t2 producers AI supplied PI fuels run out?
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The Racketeer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:20:00 -
[7]
Edited by: The Racketeer on 05/08/2010 05:22:06
Originally by: Xearal Yes producing POS fuel is quite profitable these days, as I'm a planeteer, I love these prices. I'm making good money on everything I make, as for requiring so many toons, you're doing it wrong then. Right now, I'm producing enough U238 to keep 10 Large Posses alive ( more actually, but this gives me an oopsie margin ). With a couple mor people like me added in the chain, our alliance will be able to keep 10 large moon mining posses up and produce everything we need for our manufacturing.
Basicly, since the situation for you is untenable, that means your product is too cheap, so increase their price. if it doesn't sell stockpile until those prices rise.
Robotics is a higher level of production requiring more planets and more reactions. I could not be asked to do lots of short high volume cycles like it sounds like you do to get the output required. I started stabbing babies with just 2-3 5-hour cycles a day.
we had 4 multi boxers interested and that accounted for 10 alts... not nearly enough to maintain a chain. even if they did.. I would need to ask them to sell to corp at or below half of what they could get on the market just to break even. What would you say if I asked you to sell me PI mats at half market? NO I suspect, so that hardly solves the problem.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:27:00 -
[8]
ONE SINGLE _decent_ 0.0 plasma planet can supply close to 6 robotics per hour with 23-hour cycles on the extractors. Isn't that enough ?
Well, anyway, sounds like a good time to start buying up armor plates, since quite a few manufacturers might just give up and finally quit
_
Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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The Racketeer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:36:00 -
[9]
We did stockpile like 60 days of AI fuel. Sadly it was not enough.
I think you all fail to realize the size of the gap that has to close before one could get back in to T2 production again.
eventually the produces will burn through the AI seeded supply they have and then the market will have to adjust. If PI does not come down, and why would it really, then T2 prices will have to go up, and by a lot.
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Llyandrian
Amarr Livestock Science Exchange
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Posted - 2010.08.05 06:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Johnny cruz Translation: Competitor is exiting the market due to excess supply.
Welcome to Economics 101. Working as intended :)
Double Ironic given the OP's name.
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EvilCheez
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Posted - 2010.08.05 08:12:00 -
[11]
Quote: Double Ironic given the OP's name.
Not so ironic if he is a trader with a large stockpile of plates or sylramic fibers that he is selling into the orders generated by this thread.
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 08:46:00 -
[12]
/me buys armor plates
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.05 10:54:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 05/08/2010 10:57:40
Originally by: General Bezelbub Umm, lets see...
It kinda says to me that you can't afford to make armor plates anymore. Thus, lowering supply. Assuming demand remains constant, as you/others exit market, price will go up as the stockpile of lower prices plates goes away. Allowing for a future date of which you can reenter the market and make a profit.
You are missing a point in you equation: rolled tungsten plates they are a) better than T2; b) produced in good number running missions, ratting and doing complexes.
So the price of T2 armour plates has little room for increase, it is already a marginal item and an increase in production cost that can't be passed down to the buyer will probably put most or all of the producers out of the market.
The OP probably would have a better time selling the moon minerals to the market that selling the armour plates.
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Propotkin
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: The Racketeer Edited by: The Racketeer on 05/08/2010 05:22:06
Originally by: Xearal
I would need to ask them to sell to corp at or below half of what they could get on the market just to break even. What would you say if I asked you to sell me PI mats at half market? NO I suspect, so that hardly solves the problem.
Maybe do what my corp does and get the players do donate their PI items to the corp for the good of the corp ? Unless your players only care about their own isk and not the corp they are in then they will agree.
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Bad Princess
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:23:00 -
[15]
Dude.
I feed a tower farm in lo-sec using nothing more than my main and 2 alts.
If you cant do that on your own in nullsec, you are doing it wrong.
Don't blame the mechanic for your own ineptitude.
Seriously.
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Steve Celeste
Overdogs
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 05/08/2010 10:57:40
Originally by: General Bezelbub Umm, lets see...
It kinda says to me that you can't afford to make armor plates anymore. Thus, lowering supply. Assuming demand remains constant, as you/others exit market, price will go up as the stockpile of lower prices plates goes away. Allowing for a future date of which you can reenter the market and make a profit.
You are missing a point in you equation: rolled tungsten plates they are a) better than T2; b) produced in good number running missions, ratting and doing complexes.
So the price of T2 armour plates has little room for increase, it is already a marginal item and an increase in production cost that can't be passed down to the buyer will probably put most or all of the producers out of the market.
The OP probably would have a better time selling the moon minerals to the market that selling the armour plates.
Haha you dumb.
*points and laughs
I hate naggers. |
Princess Nimotehp
Red Eye Brigade
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:30:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bad Princess Dude.
I feed a tower farm in lo-sec using nothing more than my main and 2 alts. If you cant do that on your own in nullsec, you are doing it wrong. Don't blame the mechanic for your own ineptitude. Seriously.
This ^^
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Danatious
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Posted - 2010.08.05 11:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Princess Nimotehp
Originally by: Bad Princess Dude.
I feed a tower farm in lo-sec using nothing more than my main and 2 alts. If you cant do that on your own in nullsec, you are doing it wrong. Don't blame the mechanic for your own ineptitude. Seriously.
This ^^
Seconding, i know plenty of people that run several POS's in low sec with a single account, let alone 10 alts!!!!
try setting up a few people running the towers, and then the others running the chains, if this doesn't work then get all of yourself and your corpies back to WOW.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.05 12:20:00 -
[19]
Just armor plates? That's your problem...you assumed it's gonna stay profitable.
Build something else...that's eve market 101 lesson for you, 100m please
Store |
Sandra Rodriguez
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Posted - 2010.08.05 12:48:00 -
[20]
Pos fuel is like water right now. It's all over the place and very easy to get hold of. Anyone buying pos fuel instead of making it themselves is just stupid or lazy. Even if you made 30% of what you needed you cut down a huge portion of your pos fuel bill. PI is easy and not very expensive if you know what you're doing.
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Kithran
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Posted - 2010.08.05 12:50:00 -
[21]
Let me get this straight - you produced 1.2 bil of product and pi fuel cost is 2.2 bil.
Before PI
Robotics 7000 Mechanical Parts 640 Enriched Uranium 5300 Coolant 1150 Oxygen 140
Cost Per Hour (large non-faction tower) = 44100 After PI
Robotics 22000 Mechanical Parts 6000 Enriched Uranium 8000 Coolant 12000 Oxygen 160
Cost Per Hour = 182000
PI fuels have increased by 412% which means before PI you would have spend 533 mil on these.
Assume Ice products pre-tyrannis cost 6 times the amount of npc fuels you spent 3.2 bil on ice products to fuel your pos network.
Congratulations, even before your 40% price drop in plates you sold 2 bil of plates at a cost of 3.7 bil in fueling you pos.
Kithran
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Hashpipe Malone
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Posted - 2010.08.05 13:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sandra Rodriguez Pos fuel is like water right now. It's all over the place and very easy to get hold of. Anyone buying pos fuel instead of making it themselves is just stupid or lazy. Even if you made 30% of what you needed you cut down a huge portion of your pos fuel bill. PI is easy and not very expensive if you know what you're doing.
Because unlike minerals, the PI stuff you produce is free!!
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.05 13:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hashpipe Malone
Originally by: Sandra Rodriguez Pos fuel is like water right now. It's all over the place and very easy to get hold of. Anyone buying pos fuel instead of making it themselves is just stupid or lazy. Even if you made 30% of what you needed you cut down a huge portion of your pos fuel bill. PI is easy and not very expensive if you know what you're doing.
Because unlike minerals, the PI stuff you produce is free!!
Wait, I thought minerals is free...
Store |
Storik
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Posted - 2010.08.05 14:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Originally by: Hashpipe Malone Because unlike minerals, the PI stuff you produce is free!!
Wait, I thought minerals is free...
Minerals are free!
Mine minerals Sell minerals for ISK Use ISK to buy Plex Play Eve for Free!
1000's of accounts cannot be wrong!
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.08.05 14:46:00 -
[25]
If you can't afford to make T2 stuff at current PI prices then two things will happen:
(a) Fewer people will make the T2 stuff, decreasing supply, and increasing prices (b) More people will jump aboard the PI train, increasing supply, and decreasing prices.
The market will correct itself. That's the beauty of a free market. CCP does not need to step in and tinker with things.
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 16:45:00 -
[26]
The real answer is that markets have not yet adjusted for new mechanics. Fuel prices have not setteled, and T2 prices have not adjusted to that new level, whatever it is going to be.
You are doing the right thing. Stop producing unprofitable plate and start doing something more profitable.... like maybe PI for POS fuels.
Current stocks of plate will run out, prices will adjsut up, then you can go put your towers back up.
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Bad Princess
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.05 16:46:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ulstan ............
The market will correct itself. That's the beauty of a free market. *** does not need to step in and tinker with things.
Any chance I can get you to repeat that to the United States Congress and the idiot in the whitehouse?
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LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.08.05 17:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bad Princess
Originally by: Ulstan ............
The market will correct itself. That's the beauty of a free market. *** does not need to step in and tinker with things.
Any chance I can get you to repeat that to the United States Congress and the idiot in the whitehouse?
In EVE, ISK is created when bounties are paid, insurance is paid, etc. It goes away when rents are paid, tax, NPC buy orders, etc. Industry is just moving this ISK from where it is created to where it is destroyed. Mining, manufacturing, trading... All just getting money from the PVP/PVE-ers into the hands of people that will use to do something that makes it go away. The flow will adjust itself.
Real World, money is created when people borrow. It is destroyed when they pay back or the loan is written off as uncollectable.
Real World, in the 1960 and 1970s, the world had rebuilt from WWII and with lower wages, was kicking the US's but. We were, for the first time in our nation's history, a net import nation. Loss of jobs = high unemployment. Cash flowing out buying imports = inflation.
Along comes Reagan in 1981 and decides we don't want to deal with the reality of high wages making our labor non-competative in a global market.
But, how do we maintain our standard of living when we can't compete in the global economy? Answer? Debt.
Oh, sure, Reagan talked a lot about tax cuts and spending increases and rich getting richer and that trickeling down to the middle and lower classes.... Smoke screen.
The real Reaganomic backbone was banking deregulation. Get the debt flowing to consumers and businesses so they could live above their means. Maintain our standard of living by buying stuff from the world, then having them lend us the money back. Repeat.
Whenever we hit a rough patch, the solution was always the same: more debt at lower rates issued with looser lending standards.
Unfortunatly, the result was junk bond bubble and collapse, commercial real estate bubble and collapse taking out the S&Ls, tech bubble and collapse, and finally the debt bubble and its ugly step-children the real estate bubble and hyper-consumption bubble... that have popped.
THIS, was the tinkering that kept the free (what a joke) market from finding its level.
For 30 years household and corproate debt in the United States grew at 3x the supportable rate... Based on governemtn tinkering that allowed ever more debt at ever lower rates with ever looser lending standards.
Which works until you get to the point that people can't take on more debt, rates can't go lower than 0%, and standards are so loose that fraud is the norm not the exception so they have to be tightened.... welcome to 2006.
In the USA, there is a good $10T in debt that can't be paid back. If that was admitted, it would echo through the economy. Without government tinkering of the last 2 years, the US money supply would have shrunk by 1/3rd to 1/2. 50 years of inflation would have been undone in an explosion of deflation. Unemployemnt would be 2-3x what it is now.
In short, 30 years of false prosperity and lies would have unwound in an implosion of debt, money...
The tinkering now is just trying to patch holes in the bubbble that is the US (and entire globe for that matter) economy. We're in delay and pray mode. Delay the time we have to admit the truth, and pray that a miracle happens and we never have to admit the truth.
EVE, without an economy based on debt, doesn't have that problem.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.05 18:24:00 -
[29]
At current fuel prices, most reactions yield some profit even on lowsec no-sov-fuel-bonus towers, and those that don't yield a profit almost break even compared to the opportunity cost of just selling the moon minerals instead. The big loser is Fermionic Condensates, with Sylramic Fibers not looking good either. Nanotransistors look best overall right now. Racial carbides are just on par for the course, some register a slight profit, some a slight loss (Tungsten best, Fernite worst).
Haven't looked at manufacture profit (or loss) from turning advanced materials into plates yet, but I suspect that's where the OP's problem actually lies.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2010.08.05 20:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
Originally by: Bad Princess
Originally by: Ulstan ............
The market will correct itself. That's the beauty of a free market. *** does not need to step in and tinker with things.
Any chance I can get you to repeat that to the United States Congress and the idiot in the whitehouse?
In EVE, ISK is created when bounties are paid, insurance is paid, etc. It goes away when rents are paid, tax, NPC buy orders, etc. Industry is just moving this ISK from where it is created to where it is destroyed. Mining, manufacturing, trading... All just getting money from the PVP/PVE-ers into the hands of people that will use to do something that makes it go away. The flow will adjust itself.
Real World, money is created when people borrow. It is destroyed when they pay back or the loan is written off as uncollectable.
Real World, in the 1960 and 1970s, the world had rebuilt from WWII and with lower wages, was kicking the US's but. We were, for the first time in our nation's history, a net import nation. Loss of jobs = high unemployment. Cash flowing out buying imports = inflation.
Along comes Reagan in 1981 and decides we don't want to deal with the reality of high wages making our labor non-competative in a global market.
But, how do we maintain our standard of living when we can't compete in the global economy? Answer? Debt.
Oh, sure, Reagan talked a lot about tax cuts and spending increases and rich getting richer and that trickeling down to the middle and lower classes.... Smoke screen.
The real Reaganomic backbone was banking deregulation. Get the debt flowing to consumers and businesses so they could live above their means. Maintain our standard of living by buying stuff from the world, then having them lend us the money back. Repeat.
Whenever we hit a rough patch, the solution was always the same: more debt at lower rates issued with looser lending standards.
Unfortunatly, the result was junk bond bubble and collapse, commercial real estate bubble and collapse taking out the S&Ls, tech bubble and collapse, and finally the debt bubble and its ugly step-children the real estate bubble and hyper-consumption bubble... that have popped.
THIS, was the tinkering that kept the free (what a joke) market from finding its level.
For 30 years household and corproate debt in the United States grew at 3x the supportable rate... Based on governemtn tinkering that allowed ever more debt at ever lower rates with ever looser lending standards.
Which works until you get to the point that people can't take on more debt, rates can't go lower than 0%, and standards are so loose that fraud is the norm not the exception so they have to be tightened.... welcome to 2006.
In the USA, there is a good $10T in debt that can't be paid back. If that was admitted, it would echo through the economy. Without government tinkering of the last 2 years, the US money supply would have shrunk by 1/3rd to 1/2. 50 years of inflation would have been undone in an explosion of deflation. Unemployemnt would be 2-3x what it is now.
In short, 30 years of false prosperity and lies would have unwound in an implosion of debt, money...
The tinkering now is just trying to patch holes in the bubbble that is the US (and entire globe for that matter) economy. We're in delay and pray mode. Delay the time we have to admit the truth, and pray that a miracle happens and we never have to admit the truth.
EVE, without an economy based on debt, doesn't have that problem.
I wish to subscribe to your blog. You pretty much nailed it.
Too bad you have outed yourself though. The Reagan cult will be after you with pitchforks
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
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