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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Graic Valente
Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:52:00 -
[121]
Oh dear.
Should have used the next letter in the chain. FBank. Fail Bank.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:55:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Graic Valente Oh dear.
Should have used the next letter in the chain. FBank. Fail Bank.
Taken by Fury Bank. I believe we were counting down the alphabet, in order of launch:
F[ury] Bank E[ve] Bank D[ynasty] Bank
Free jumpclone service|1092 stations! |
Graic Valente
Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:57:00 -
[123]
Ah! My bad. Crap Bank then.
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SetrakDark
Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.10 11:58:00 -
[124]
And the MD Elites viciously attack another budding businessman in their avaricious quest to dominate all aspects of Eve finance; so fearful of healthy competition that they are willing to slander and verbally abuse anyone.
How sad.
I will invest 20b in this brave and selfless effort to bring much needed banking services to the average pilot of New Eden, whom until now has suffered under the yoke of an evil financial cabal.
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:03:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Julius Rigel on 10/08/2010 12:05:47 But on a more serious note, TheB, where's my money? I sent it to your character but it didn't show up in my account.
Originally by: SetrakDark I will invest 20b in this brave and selfless effort to bring much needed banking services to the average pilot of New Eden, whom until now has suffered under the yoke of an evil financial cabal.
I'll believe it when I see the money on your account page (which will be located here: http://thebankofeve.com/?p=accounts/member/setrakdark.php).
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:14:00 -
[126]
I am not sure I understand what is the problem you guys see with security on the website? The accounts are on the internet, yes, but the website is not used for transfer of isk. Afaik you only log in to check your balance.
Same as with Hydra really, anyone can find those accounts as well. That's not a problem for us.
I find that the lack of a viable business plan is the main problem with this bank, and there's no need to pick at other details. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:20:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Cista2 I am not sure I understand what is the problem you guys see with security on the website? The accounts are on the internet, yes, but the website is not used for transfer of isk. Afaik you only log in to check your balance.
Two things:
1) What if I don't want anyone to know my balance? Nowhere does the bank mention that my balance will be made public, in fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that a bank will make an effort to keep all clients' balances confidential.
2) With at least one other bank a website failure was the trigger for the entire bank failing (/scamming). This website doesn't look like a lot of thought went into it (and into securing it).
Free jumpclone service|1092 stations! |
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:33:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Graic Valente Oh dear.
Should have used the next letter in the chain. FBank. Fail Bank.
Taken by Fury Bank. I believe we were counting down the alphabet, in order of launch:
F[ury] Bank E[ve] Bank D[ynasty] Bank
Becomes obvious that the next bank is C[hribba] Bank
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:43:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Cista2 I am not sure I understand what is the problem you guys see with security on the website?
Who said anything about a problem? In fact, who said anything about security? I just wanted to point out that you can "log in" to anyone's account by simply typing their character name. For all I know this is working as intended.
It's not a "problem" as much as it is common sense. When you open a bank account you expect that people can't just walk up to the teller and ask for your account balance without even providing your PIN.
Also, I put in a withdraw request, so if you get 100 000 of your ISK sent back by tomorrow, don't worry, it just means TheB is checking all the PINs manually for each transaction and he didn't notice that I typed the wrong PIN. Or maybe I typed the right PIN, it's a 1 in ten thousand possibility.
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:46:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Estel Arador Nowhere does the bank mention that my balance will be made public, in fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that a bank will make an effort to keep all clients' balances confidential.
This is an interesting point you are making. If anyone remembers Davramm's investment fund from December 2009, this was a very succesful fund which was given the full frontal treatment of MD hatred for about a month and then closed. One of the main accusation was that investments were anonymous, so the MD elite did not know who had invested. In my own investment fund (Hydra) I have published who the investors are, but not how much each investor has in the fund. However, any of the investors can see all the other accounts.
I am interested in knowing what MD thinks of the issue of anonymous and secret accounts. Is it a given as Estel says that accounts must be secret in an operating bank? The reason I am asking is also that Hydra is already functioning as a bank essentially, since investors can deposit and withdraw from their accounts at leisure.
----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2010.08.10 12:59:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Estel Arador Nowhere does the bank mention that my balance will be made public, in fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that a bank will make an effort to keep all clients' balances confidential.
This is an interesting point you are making. If anyone remembers Davramm's investment fund from December 2009, this was a very succesful fund which was given the full frontal treatment of MD hatred for about a month and then closed. One of the main accusation was that investments were anonymous, so the MD elite did not know who had invested. In my own investment fund (Hydra) I have published who the investors are, but not how much each investor has in the fund. However, any of the investors can see all the other accounts.
I am interested in knowing what MD thinks of the issue of anonymous and secret accounts. Is it a given as Estel says that accounts must be secret in an operating bank? The reason I am asking is also that Hydra is already functioning as a bank essentially, since investors can deposit and withdraw from their accounts at leisure.
Exactly, in normal conditions of a business that operates as a "bank" you shouldn't be able to see the sums of other people's investments unless they wish to show you.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.08.10 13:13:00 -
[132]
Edited by: Estel Arador on 10/08/2010 13:14:01
Originally by: Cista2
Originally by: Estel Arador Nowhere does the bank mention that my balance will be made public, in fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that a bank will make an effort to keep all clients' balances confidential.
This is an interesting point you are making. If anyone remembers Davramm's investment fund from December 2009, this was a very succesful fund which was given the full frontal treatment of MD hatred for about a month and then closed. One of the main accusation was that investments were anonymous, so the MD elite did not know who had invested. In my own investment fund (Hydra) I have published who the investors are, but not how much each investor has in the fund. However, any of the investors can see all the other accounts.
I am interested in knowing what MD thinks of the issue of anonymous and secret accounts. Is it a given as Estel says that accounts must be secret in an operating bank? The reason I am asking is also that Hydra is already functioning as a bank essentially, since investors can deposit and withdraw from their accounts at leisure.
There's a difference between IPOs/bonds looking for a set amount of isk and banks handling whatever isk they get (preferably up to a manageable maximum).
An IPO/bond looks to gather an exact amount of isk for a specific purpose. Ideally, that amount of isk is supported by research/goals. If the isk amount is not fully raised, the IPO/bond will not be able to reach it goals; whereas more would be raised, the risk/reward ratio might change (usually to the detriment of investors). Therefore I argue that any initial investments in IPO/bonds should be declared publicly; I've written a bit on that earlier today here. (Trading existing shares does not have to happen publicly, as the trade between two characters does not change the amount invested in the company.)
Banks on the other hand are not looking for a set amount of isk, but are providing a service. The amount of isk the bank handles changes daily, and all the bank has to do is ensure it makes enough money to cover interest, salaries and any promised dividends. Handling varying amounts of isk would be taken into account in a bank's business plan, so it should not change the expected profits or the risk/reward ratio (up to a certain point, which is why I mentioned "up to a manageable maximum" earlier). The bank should report how much total isk it is managing, but whose isk that is exactly is not very important.
Another difference between IPO/bonds and banks is that people generally invest only part of their wealth in IPO/bonds, whereas (too) trusting persons might put a large part of their wealth into a checking account.
I hope it is now clear why I expect IPO/bonds to have public investments and why banks should be confidential about any account holders.
Free jumpclone service|1092 stations! |
Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.10 13:26:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Estel Arador Banks on the other hand are not looking for a set amount of isk, but are providing a service. The amount of isk the bank handles changes daily, and all the bank has to do is ensure it makes enough money to cover interest, salaries and any promised dividends.
But here is the problem in Eve right? Because a bank in Eve cannot thrive exclusively on loaning out isk. A bank in Eve needs a hard business plan that provides isk to pay interest on the accounts, and that business plan must be investments *outside* the bank itself. Hydra gets its profits from trading bpos. Ebank got their profit from lol investments, and this new bank is incriminated because it does not have a business plan involved trade or investments.
In that sense, while I acknowledge your argument, there is typically more similarity/overlap between a bank business in Eve and an ipo in Eve. Put in another way, a bank in Eve should be defined by the service it provides (account types), and not so much by which other activities the bank is involved in, or whether accounts are public or not. What do you think? ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.08.10 14:10:00 -
[134]
Edited by: RAW23 on 10/08/2010 14:13:54
Originally by: Cista2 This is an interesting point you are making. If anyone remembers Davramm's investment fund from December 2009, this presented itself as a very succesful fund (but refused to provide anything at all to support those claims) which was given the full frontal treatment of MD hatred for about a month and then closed.
Fixed that for you
Link: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1222097&page=1
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.10 14:18:00 -
[135]
Originally by: RAW23 Fixed that for you
By succesful I meant only that those that invested got phat profitz, it is not my goal to further endorse the fund, its methods or the person behind it My reason for mentioning it was the debate on anonymous investments. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2010.08.10 15:13:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Hel O''Ween on 10/08/2010 15:13:55
Originally by: Cista2 I am not sure I understand what is the problem you guys see with security on the website? The accounts are on the internet, yes, but the website is not used for transfer of isk. Afaik you only log in to check your balance.
As pointed out already, the general assumption seems to be that any "bank" will not keep my accounts open to the public. Besides this obvious reason, if I can just type my or your name in there, why bother with a login? Checking accounts can be done without already.
Assuming it was not the intention to show off all accounts to the public (which the login seems to be hinting at), such a very basic and obvious oversight of common security coding paradigms will most likely not be the only (coding) faults. People with more experience in intrusion checks might well be able to find a similar security hole in this website as it was found in DBank's site. And we all know the outcome of this. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.08.10 15:18:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Cista2 In that sense, while I acknowledge your argument, there is typically more similarity/overlap between a bank business in Eve and an ipo in Eve.
I disagree, there are many differences between IPOs and banks (to name just a few: fixed investments vs fluid isk; equity vs service; 'working' the isk vs 'investing' the isk).
As for what a bank could/should do to make isk exactly, I won't comment on that.
Free jumpclone service|1092 stations! |
Kimbeau Surveryor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.10 15:27:00 -
[138]
Please please please, can I borrow all your money?
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F90OEX
F9X WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.08.10 17:19:00 -
[139]
Don't know whats more funny the OP or the people who have posted in this thread that have been involved in past Banks that have failed.
An Eve bank is a great idea on paper but like many things in Eve, that's where it should be left.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2010.08.11 08:38:00 -
[140]
Last response from OP three days ago?!?
How does that meme go ...
1. Announce new EVE bank 2. Let ISD write a news article about it. 3. ??? 4. Profit! -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.11 09:17:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween
2. Let ISD write a news article about it.
The point seems to be, now ISD can write news articles about another great Eve Bank scam! (which they nurtured themselves) ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
cuoredipietra famedoro
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:47:00 -
[142]
Quote: Let ISD write a news article about it.
First of all ISD != From Interstellar Correspondents. In this case Interstellar Correspondents might have made a mistake but this not apply to ISD as a whole, as it includes other divisions.
Secondly, they report on things happening inside the eve universe and as much as we know, they have *no liason* with the events they are reporting.
Are the previous posts implying they are not neutral to events? Are they implying the news are biased for stupidity or profit or both?
Becouse, in this case case I cannot understand why people emo-rage about a kestrel with 74 plexes or about the lag and do not threadnought IC enough.
Evidently, capsuleers consider IC alternatively as a cheap promotion mean and a good scapegoat. I believe capsuleers think like this:
> IC are good when they cover *my* point of view in a way that *it generates advertisement or profit* to me and me alone or "generate shame or less profit* to someone i do not like.
> IC are instead very bad when they cover the point of view of *someone i do not like* in a way that *might increase his/her business* or in a way that might shame me.
Basically those who blame IC for reporting this or that event, as much as those who praise them, are only playing the "I win eve" game, on a different level than just shooting each other.
This blame/praise game is hypocrital as news are just a good mean to fuel useful discussions among players. This thread is an example of good and useful discussion fueled by news, for example.
In the present case, news reports on a *want to be* bank are irrelevant to the bank trustability. As usual, it is capsuleer's responsibility to be informed and *not to* rely just on login screen news.
I believe this bank cannot be trusted whatever IC says but i cannot blame them, as their article ultimately brought me to this thread.
/my 2 cents.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:55:00 -
[143]
Originally by: cuoredipietra famedoro
Are the previous posts implying they are not neutral to events? Are they implying the news are biased for stupidity or profit or both?
A week or so ago there was a large fleet battle in 0.0. The servers lagged out and ended up dropping everyone after a few minutes. The IC reported, with a big article on the login screen, that the "fleet battle was interrupted by spatial distortions". When in fact the node lagged out and crashed.
Also as Chribba said in his earlier post in this thread, he didn't say anything close to what they published. So basically they are twisting the news to make it look better than it is.
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cuoredipietra famedoro
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:58:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Breaker77 The IC reported, with a big article on the login screen, that the "fleet battle was interrupted by spatial distortions". When in fact the node lagged out and crashed.
You are absolutely right on that article. There is a post somewhere, however, that explained they were in carachter and thus they could not describe the lag as lag but had to invent some fancy roleplay translation.
I do not remember that article being "twisted" apart from that RP stuff. In this case, however, i read Chribba explaining he has been misrepresented. It would be nice to understand to which extent.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.11 11:30:00 -
[145]
Originally by: cuoredipietra famedoro I do not remember that article being "twisted" apart from that RP stuff. In this case, however, i read Chribba explaining he has been misrepresented. It would be nice to understand to which extent.
I was pretty much apporached with the question "what is needed to make a bank work in eve" -
Seeing my limited knowledge on how to run a bank I instead focused on what my view of how to run any successfull public service, be it a bank, courier service or anything else. Which imo was the key points of, trust and communication.
Those views in the context of the bank article itself didn't turn out that good imo, seeing as I only had the views of public services in mind, I think my general views were applied to the focus of the article and therefor became misrepresentated.
I can only comment about the part I was quoted obviously, and I did at least not intend to forumulate my words like stated in the article as my focus was not towards the bank itself, so as far as the rest of the article being twisted or tuned to show a "better" side than described in the thread I have no idea about.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
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Posted - 2010.08.11 12:02:00 -
[146]
Originally by: cuoredipietra famedoro Basically those who blame IC for reporting this or that event, as much as those who praise them, are only playing the "I win eve" game, on a different level than just shooting each other.
Here's the point: just about every month some bozo posts a thread that he is launching a new bank in Eve. One week later it is usually forgotten.
That someone is claiming to launch a bank is not really an "event" and in fact, it is not newsworthy. If a bank establishes itself and assembles a catalogue of customers and x billion isk for its business, that will be newsworthy. ----------------------- "Signatures" chatroom / Hydra Fund / LLSE Stock Market |
cuoredipietra famedoro
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Posted - 2010.08.11 12:42:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Cista2 Here's the point: just about every month some bozo posts a thread that he is launching a new bank in Eve. One week later it is usually forgotten.
Good point.
Likely, someone reached the correspondents and claimed that a bank had been opened and was working.
Now what do we call this? a Troll? I'd say not, becouse if the bank is open that is a fact. It is insecure but it is open. So the reporter might have had a sweetspot for MD and jumped on the article.
However, I do not see how this can be prevented. It is easy to understand that a hauler kill in Jita is not newsworthy while a kestrel loaded of 74 plexes instead is.
But how can an MD noob separate a relevant from an irrelevant news on MD? Either it has been around a lot and understood how this forum works or the reporter is as uninformed as the average lemming that jumps on unsecured IPOs.
In my opinion they cannot be blamed for being incompetent, unless they have an MD veteran in their ranks.
That is why a news is just a news, after you read it you'd better jump on MD to get deeper info.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2010.08.11 14:52:00 -
[148]
Originally by: cuoredipietra famedoro
First of all ISD != From Interstellar Correspondents. In this case Interstellar Correspondents might have made a mistake but this not apply to ISD as a whole, as it includes other divisions.
I apologize for mixing those two entities.
Quote:
Are the previous posts implying they are not neutral to events? Are they implying the news are biased for stupidity or profit or both?
"Lack of research" (aka "stupidity" in this case). A lot of the relevant questions (which didn't get asnwered up until today) from this thread were already present, when the article appeared.
And - as Chribba explains above - quoting his answers to a generalized question in a news article aboput a specific entity makes it look as if Chribba had commented on that exact entity.
Yes, those that stop reading after "Chribba", thinking "OMG CHRIBBA SUPPORTS THIS!!!" and throwing their ISK towards this venture probably deserve their possible loss.
But I'm pretty sure IC is aware of the implied trust when mentioning Chribba's name in reference with a specific news topic.
Plus, it's "official news at the login screen". I bet a lot of players aren't aware of the fact, that these news are made by players for players, meant to be both entertaining and informative, but nonetheless are just that: a player's attempt at a news article. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.08.11 15:20:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween Plus, it's "official news at the login screen". I bet a lot of players aren't aware of the fact, that these news are made by players for players, meant to be both entertaining and informative, but nonetheless are just that: a player's attempt at a news article.
The login banner and news make it seem like it's coming from CCP. When EBANK took the ad out for the login screen ad, it received a massive flow of ISK, the banner cost a billion if I remember correctly but it received much more then that. So this guy taking a news article that simply mentions Chribba has probably proven to be very profitable.
Amarr for Life |
cuoredipietra famedoro
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Posted - 2010.08.11 15:43:00 -
[150]
Originally by: SencneS So this guy taking a news article that simply mentions Chribba has probably proven to be very profitable.
Which is quite a common schema nowadays, everyone has ever noticed T'Amber's lotteries in the news and the subsequent sprawl of lotto threads?
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