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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 33 post(s) |
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CCP Fallout
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:02:00 -
[1]
Beginning Monday, August 16, we will be publishing a series of blogs outlining our initiative to tackle the infamous lag monster. CCP Zulu's newest blog provides us with a look at what's in store.
Fallout Associate Community Manager CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Rokkit Kween
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:09:00 -
[2]
First!
And good news to hear that there will be moar communication on this issue. Keeping the playerbase abreast of developments should be a priority. ================================== One of the many faces of Mandrill twitter|Website|Member of the UEB
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W3370Pi4
ExoGeni Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:10:00 -
[3]
nice thanks
------------------------- ◙→Join the "Legit Trading" Channel - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1016265 -------------------------
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Commander Phoenix
More-Cowbell
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:12:00 -
[4]
Excellent. Look forward to reading them :) ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big. |
iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:16:00 -
[5]
More communication, good. I hope it will be focused on the divide between perspectives, that all together constitute business, and not just the technical talk - although yes this is EVE, we do appreciate that insight and especially interaction that follows.
Quote: In conclusion, we've been a bit too heads-down on this anti-lag effort and realize the importance of our progress within the EVE player base.
Nah. Mass Fleet Testing did need tweaks, but it is not a case of expectation management you know, that's a business method only useful when things fail, and EVE is far from failing. The realisation is appreciated, but again we hope that it will come down to where the real bottlenecks are. If it helps, Mass Fleet Testing has made good changes, as visible in the last event, but yes it is but one part of the mix.
The part of heads down, yes, I think that is a fair conclusion. Albeit not for Mass Fleet Testing or the fight against lag, those guys & girls have demonstrated much more visible effort then anything else really. Remember the CSM Meeting Minutes, the bottlenecks are visible in there.
The "situation" as it is, is not event specific (if it were, drama would be good, as in the past). Instead it's a trend, and that does require to be addressed with the right combination of perspectives.
Looking forward to these blogs, and more. You upped the ante, it will be great and inspiring to see CCP take on the challenge.
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Dusty Meg
Endless Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:17:00 -
[6]
Great to hear your starting to get more techy with your blogs. \o/ Anyway roll on the dev blogs.
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Dacil Arandur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:17:00 -
[7]
This is a really great dev blog. It acknowledges everything people have been upset about concerning lag.
I really appreciate this commitment to communication!
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:18:00 -
[8]
Good news is good.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' |
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Ulviirala Vauryndar
Gallente Vauryndar Dalharil
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:19:00 -
[9]
That Devblog was fast, woah...
"It is our number one priority, so we might start working on it in 18 months." - CCP |
Kythren
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:21:00 -
[10]
dont mind me, just saying hello. o/ ----- <sarcasm="inside"> murmur<->eve authentication script(python) http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ Mumble, the |
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 13/08/2010 16:23:33 Looking forward to that.
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RifterDrifter
They Found Oil On Your Anus
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:23:00 -
[12]
18 Months. _______________________________________________
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Aurora Robotnik
Caldari CKSSA Research And Development
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:23:00 -
[13]
First page \o/
Nicely done CCP. Great to see you're finally beginning to communicate with the players properly. Still not voting for you :P
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Doof Hardcastle
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:25:00 -
[14]
honestly, my expectations have been so lowered that i would be happy being able to jump through gates more than once every 15 minutes
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CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:27:00 -
[15]
Nnngh, can't wait
Software Engineer Core Engineering |
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Meissa Anunthiel
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Atropos Nnngh, can't wait
Neither can I :-) member of CSM 2, 3, 4 and 5. Feel free to contact me with queries. Convo, evemail or join the "meissaCSM" in-game channel. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:28:00 -
[17]
Thanks for the info. Keep up the good work.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Doof Hardcastle
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:32:00 -
[18]
so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how **** you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.
Congrats, you're douches.
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XenosisReaper
Rising Ashes Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:33:00 -
[19]
CCP Headquarters
"Damage Control!?"
"Its not good sir! They've knocked over the coffee machine"
"Evasive Manoeuvres! Hard to port and pop Dev Blo- I mean flares"
"AYE AYE"
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Undertow Latheus
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:36:00 -
[20]
Very nice indeed. While there's no way to know how much this will actually help the lag issue, I'm sure many people will be glad that you're finally acknowledging their frustrations.
Now about that lowsec thing... Signature removed due to non-EVE related.Applebabe |
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Monistat Seven
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:38:00 -
[21]
Thank You!
Thank You!
Thank You!
Favorite line... "We had our heads down". I know what that is like when working so focused on a problem. If you want us to be part of the team to fix the problem, you need to communicate with your team, and yes, even though I pay to play, I'll pay to improve too IF you are making progress. This is progress.
Thank You!
Thank You!
Thank You!
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:43:31 Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:42:50
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how **** you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.
Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.
But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle
Congrats, you're douches.
I love Jersey Shore just as much as the next guy so I take that as a compliment
Executive Producer EVE Online
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:48:00 -
[23]
Edited by: iP0D on 13/08/2010 16:50:28
Originally by: CCP Oveur But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.
Good to see some old style posting Missed that, with bi directional communication and a little protocol there is no need to fear the forums (I remember when some trolls feared the ccpians here).
I just really hope, that there is some realisation on the differences in perspectives, and how all of them carry their own value markers in business. Perception defines reality, reality defines business, etc.
Looking forward to see whether the trend is considered for what it is.
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Bajsek
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:48:00 -
[24]
Then it must be a very strange coincidence that this blog followed right after people started to ***** about EvE on internetz. And we thought those two things are somehow connected... silly me.
So.. 18 months?
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DmitryEKT
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:49:00 -
[25]
At least something's being done...
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Dan Kaneda
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:56:00 -
[26]
We don't care about lag, give us shiny new stuff !
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.08.13 16:59:00 -
[27]
Always good to see more in-depth information coming out in dev blogs. Is there any rough schedule for the publication of the ones listed as upcoming, particlarly CCP Warlock's? I know a lot of folks are looking forward to that one and would dearly love to mark it "Delivered" on my tracked list of deliverables that CCP committed to during the June Summit.
Life In Low Sec |
Aranial
Gallente Empyrean Warriors Lux Caelestia
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:05:00 -
[28]
Wahey!
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bajsek Then it must be a very strange coincidence that this blog followed right after people started to ***** about EvE on internetz. And we thought those two things are somehow connected... silly me.
So.. 18 months?
No coincidence. Happened something like this.
Dude: "Hey, since we're focusing more on lag, maybe we should tell everyone about it as well so they see the progress and what we're thinking"
Me: "What, you serious? I don't understand half of that ****, you think 350 thousand EVE players will be interested in semahors?"
Dude: "That's semaphores Nathan. And obviously not everyone is as dense as you. I mean that in a good way."
Dudette: "Yeah, and those that do understand can perhaps explain the stuff to others as well."
So here we are. Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
We deliver expansions every 6 months. The winter expansion is being planned on Monday and includes improvements, fixes, content and new features, including quite a few of the stuff listed on the Evelopedia prioritized list. We also spend 20% of the time fixing stuff, as one does.
The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.
The winter expansion in 2011, and this is where the 18 months comes is, has a major theme change. Improvements, fixes. Not so much new features. Still 20% fixing. Because from there on and for the foreseeable future, we will be improving all the stuff we already have.
That's why I said "no new features". Everyone is working on improving what we already got. And there is so much we already have that it'll probably keep us busy for more than a year revisiting features.
And that's delivered in winter 2011.
And it's less than 18 months.
And I like to do short sentences.
I should probably turn this into a blog.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Oveur I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Oveur Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?
Originally by: CCP Oveur I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes y'all gave us).
Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?
Originally by: CCP Oveur I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes y'all gave us).
Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.
Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.
Or he stalks me.
I guess it's mutual
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:28:00 -
[33]
semaphores are sexy please make more dev blogs with this kind of dirty talk
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Vuk Lau
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 -
[34]
Thank God on coordinated devbloging.
+rep
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
We deliver expansions every 6 months. The winter expansion is being planned on Monday and includes improvements, fixes, content and new features, including quite a few of the stuff listed on the Evelopedia prioritized list. We also spend 20% of the time fixing stuff, as one does.
The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.
The winter expansion in 2011, and this is where the 18 months comes is, has a major theme change. Improvements, fixes. Not so much new features. Still 20% fixing. Because from there on and for the foreseeable future, we will be improving all the stuff we already have.
That's why I said "no new features". Everyone is working on improving what we already got. And there is so much we already have that it'll probably keep us busy for more than a year revisiting features.
And that's delivered in winter 2011.
And it took you a whole month to say that? And no one else could have said that while you were away? (an employee needs his vacation, no argument about that!) And no one else saw the meetings minutes and thought "Hey, that does not sound like what we said we would to do"?
I'm not sure this all adds up to a nice consistent story...
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:33:00 -
[36]
Edited by: iP0D on 13/08/2010 17:34:52
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.
Or he stalks me.
I guess it's mutual
I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.
Process mistakes can happen, maybe something good will come out of it, like CSM being able to fill its definition and the challenge that as thrown at them, I do think it is an interesting potential to build with, and on. Reading the CSM Minutes, this pass through mechanism of a championship on topis, sure, but for communication and workflow that doesn't work well - traditionally.
Just curious on the kids part .. do they mine? We didn't eh waste by mistake during Hulkageddon did we?
As or the eh stalking, crossdressing isn't that disturbing New Orleans party will be ... interesting ...
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Astomichi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:37:00 -
[37]
Sounds pretty good, but I'll believe it when I see the fleet battles sans lag.
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Buzz Aldrino
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:44:00 -
[38]
Great to see some blogs again and thanks for the insights oveur. Is there any chance twell get to ehar what you plan on working besides lag improvements?
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Axemaster
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:50:00 -
[39]
Finally! Thank you CCP!
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 17:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?
Originally by: CCP Oveur I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes y'all gave us).
Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.
Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.
Or he stalks me.
I guess it's mutual
May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:03:00 -
[41]
Four blogs on how hard you are working to fix lag. It's kind of an admission you have not been able to find what you messed up and are throwing numbers at us in an attempt to impress.
Like this:
Quote: It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
When your achievements are so few it's not a good thing to start bragging how many people are involved in doing so little. It just makes things look worse.
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krickettt
ldiocracy Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:04:00 -
[42]
Very good news!
CCP Oveur, I <3 you. I feel better now. =D
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mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:07:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
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Aurora Robotnik
Caldari CKSSA Research And Development
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published
Dude.... you and your colleagues really need to get over whatever happened with the CSM minutes. It's in the past, get over it. You're making the threadnaught about some Kestrel look mature in comparison :P
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: CCP Oveur So here we are. Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
We will like it. Eve players are a pretty technically savvy and curious bunch, after all.
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better ... I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes...please do--and while you're at it, why not use it as an opportunity to work with the CSM on that? As I've stated before, we sit in the interesting position of representing players but also collaborating with and advising CCP about the things that concern the community.
Originally by: CCP Oveur Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation.
*loves feisty conversation, too* Hopefully "everyone" means CSM, too. CCP's apparent lack of process often leaves me mystified. It's kinda crazy that two years into the CSM adventure, we still have to push CCP constantly to engage in basic business processes that will enable more productive collaboration and communications. But hey...there has been *some* progress and little steps are better than none at all.
Life In Low Sec |
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CCP Manifest
C C P
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: iP0D
I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.
This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only. --CCP Manifest-- |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
We deliver expansions every 6 months. The winter expansion is being planned on Monday and includes improvements, fixes, content and new features, including quite a few of the stuff listed on the Evelopedia prioritized list. We also spend 20% of the time fixing stuff, as one does.
The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.
The winter expansion in 2011, and this is where the 18 months comes is, has a major theme change. Improvements, fixes. Not so much new features. Still 20% fixing. Because from there on and for the foreseeable future, we will be improving all the stuff we already have.
That's why I said "no new features". Everyone is working on improving what we already got. And there is so much we already have that it'll probably keep us busy for more than a year revisiting features.
And that's delivered in winter 2011.
And it took you a whole month to say that? And no one else could have said that while you were away? (an employee needs his vacation, no argument about that!) And no one else saw the meetings minutes and thought "Hey, that does not sound like what we said we would to do"?
I'm not sure this all adds up to a nice consistent story...
Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".
And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.
Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:14:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D
I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.
This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.
To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.
Life In Low Sec |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Astomichi Sounds pretty good, but I'll believe it when I see the fleet battles sans lag.
I'm not trying to tell you it has worked or going to work.
I'm showing you what we're doing to find out what is causing it all, showing you what tools we have and showing you our plans.
The only way to tell you that lag has gone away, is by lag going away.
Unless you're a certain information minister for a recently invaded country.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:18:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Oveur Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".
And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.
Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies
Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?
Update your Bio Info please!
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:21:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Darth Vapour Four blogs on how hard you are working to fix lag. It's kind of an admission you have not been able to find what you messed up and are throwing numbers at us in an attempt to impress.
Like this:
Quote: It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
When your achievements are so few it's not a good thing to start bragging how many people are involved in doing so little. It just makes things look worse.
They actually aren't on how hard we're working. It's showing how we're doing it.
And you are absolutely right, we haven't been able to find everything that is causing lag today. Because that's kind of how it works. You spend tons of time investigating till you find out what's wrong and then first, can you actually fix it
Also very sorry that you think I look worse. I'm not sure how else to explain to you than with numbers our commitment. Interpretive dance perhaps?
Executive Producer EVE Online
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:22:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mynxee Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D
I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.
This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.
To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.
I just thought, since there was such a visible divide in value ttached to metrics versus value attached to other business elements and processes (aside of the procedural oops moments) it would be a good idea for Oveur and CSM to tackle this one together.
You know, the technical stuff is just one side of it all. And while often correct and always valuable, it is just one part of what constitutes both the immersion and the business.
The CSM Meeting Minutes showed quite clear where value elements are assigned, the current situation shows quite clearly how that makes people uncomfortable, so why not stick Oveur and CSM in a virtual room and combine the perspectives so that we players can get some comfort of seeing that EVE and CCP are not going to end up like Catalyst portfolio pieces (common / ordinary companies versus being different). It's that side of CCP and EVE which has been a huge factor in getting it where they are today.
So, why not shack up, put some heads together. Who knows what milkshake you'll come up with, but at least it will show folks in EVE and outside of EVE that this ain't just another game. That it's worth sticking around, because the perspectives are shared, and so are the dream and the challenges alike.
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Taudia
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:23:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Aurora Robotnik
Dude.... you and your colleagues really need to get over whatever happened with the CSM minutes. It's in the past, get over it. You're making the threadnaught about some Kestrel look mature in comparison :P
Very wrong - some very serious questions were posed in that thread and had before this thread yet to be answered. Leaving it would leave many players to assume the worst, as literally nothing had been heard from CCP about some of these issues, the "nothing in 18 months" thing being one of the chief concerns.
Thank you for the upcoming blogs in advance, CCP - I am sure they will be interesting.
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:24:00 -
[54]
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 13/08/2010 17:59:59
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur Tech blog bombardment. Hope you like it.
It is very appreciated. Just please do not misunderstand, it is but one part of the picture.
Originally by: CCP Oveur And on the 18 months, which is largely attributed to a meeting with me, which meeting minute I didn't get to read before it was published, where I could have explained this better, is as follows.
Not sure I understand that fully, but how is that possible. I mean, CCP and CSM had meetings, involving lots of departments and people, isn't it normal to expect people and departments to followup on meeting reviews and minutes, and to go over drafts prior to publication?
Originally by: CCP Oveur I should probably turn this into a blog.
Yes, definately. It would especially be awesome if you got together with the CSM, and did that together. Show the synergy that is such an amazing part of this alternate life (eh, job, sometimes y'all gave us).
Afaik only Vuk bites, sometimes, alltogether they seem pretty civil. And remarkably competent, driven and challenged in taking things on with workflow, professionalism and aptitude.
Internal process mistake and I was on vacation with my kids. We're working with everyone to make sure it's better next time. They (CSM) are good fun and great people, I love a feisty conversation. Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.
Or he stalks me.
I guess it's mutual
May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?
PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.
Of course, the whole point of meeting minutes is to read them over and agree that's what happened in the meeting. Otherwise they aren't meeting minutes
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Mr Booger
Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:31:00 -
[56]
Will there be a devblog on what exactly caused the Dominion lag-spike, or indeed CCP's efforts to find out what is going on in that area?
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:36:00 -
[57]
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: Mynxee Edited by: Mynxee on 13/08/2010 18:14:51
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Originally by: iP0D
I'd really like to see the collaboration turn into a blog there :-) It would be a good "other" part of the mix with the current situation and all that.
This is in discussion already with the CSM. We're hashing out some details, doing some information gathering on our end at their request and trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.
To clarify, we've been discussing CSM blogs; what iPOD is referring to is a collaboration between CSM and CCP on specific dev blog topics--which I also think is a grand idea but separate from CSM-only blogs. Still...I'm happy whenever quality communication happens in whatever form it takes.
I just thought, since there was such a visible divide in value ttached to metrics versus value attached to other business elements and processes (aside of the procedural oops moments) it would be a good idea for Oveur and CSM to tackle this one together.
You know, the technical stuff is just one side of it all. And while often correct and always valuable, it is just one part of what constitutes both the immersion and the business.
The CSM Meeting Minutes showed quite clear where value elements are assigned, the current situation shows quite clearly how that makes people uncomfortable, so why not stick Oveur and CSM in a virtual room and combine the perspectives so that we players can get some comfort of seeing that EVE and CCP are not going to end up like Catalyst portfolio pieces (common / ordinary companies versus being different). It's that side of CCP and EVE which has been a huge factor in getting it where they are today.
So, why not shack up, put some heads together. Who knows what milkshake you'll come up with, but at least it will show folks in EVE and outside of EVE that this ain't just another game. That it's worth sticking around, because the perspectives are shared, and so are the dream and the challenges alike.
I'm in.
We're never going to leave EVE. We've said that for 7 years.
We take pride in our strategy of having kept growing the EVE development team.
Everybody else moved their teams to new games. We hired entire new teams for ours while we keep hiring into EVE.
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: CCP Oveur Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".
And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.
Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies
Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?
Update your Bio Info please!
I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Zeke Mobius
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:38:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Zeke Mobius on 13/08/2010 18:41:05
Originally by: CCP Oveur Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:43:31 Edited by: CCP Oveur on 13/08/2010 16:42:50
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how **** you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.
Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.
But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle
Congrats, you're douches.
I love Jersey Shore just as much as the next guy so I take that as a compliment
A ccp dev actually making me lmao in a poast. whowouldathunkit? not i lol
**JERSEY SHORE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MMMM SNOOK!
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
I think he is referring to the CSM Meeting Minutes:
Quote: 14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence
CCP Attendees: Nathan û CCP Oveur, Erlendur û CCP Explorer
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE. There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
...
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.
Summary:
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction of CCP. The CSM stated that thereÆs a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against the promised excellence initiative.
CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
This is more or less the "other" part of the situation, which combined with the "technical" part constitutes the big picture. For product, business, etc.
This is why I thought it'd be a good idea for you and CSM to tackle that one together, you know:
Originally by: Vilhjßlmur Thorsteinsson CCPæs culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
That never stopped you before. See: HTFU video.
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:42:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Mr Booger Will there be a devblog on what exactly caused the Dominion lag-spike, or indeed CCP's efforts to find out what is going on in that area?
Yes, we are investigating that and the short answer is that it seems to have started before Dominion. And it's a whole slew of smaller issues we've started uncovering, very few of them directly tied to Dominion.
So while it would be very nice to have it bound to Dominion and just uninstall that, it isn't poor Dominions fault.
There will be a slew of blogs on specific things uncovered. They'll have graphs and all sorts of tech stuff.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:45:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Darth Vapour
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
That never stopped you before. See: HTFU video.
Chicks totally dig that. I need all the help I can get being fat and a single father of two.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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SokoleOko
Minmatar Pink Bunnies
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
It's not assumption. Just yesterday I was roaming in Vale/Geminate and lag was unbearable - with only 20 ppl on local we were unable to jump or to load grid after the jump. Presumably because there was a battle somewhere else.
It is the players, not the server statitics, that play this game. And the customer is always right... right?
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Korerin Mayul
Amarr hirr
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:51:00 -
[65]
eve *isnt* dying devs are posting, and posting well.
i have clearly fallen into reverso world! yay!
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MailDeadDrop
The Collective
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:51:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Manifest We're ... trying to figure out a good regular timetable for doing such a thing so that it's not one-time-only.
May I propose weekly, with CCP & CSM alternating? This gives each side a week to consider the prior post, do research, ask others' opinions, and compose a proper response. In the end it means that CCP would commit to writing *something* every two weeks -- hopefully that's not an excessive burden.
Originally by: TheDevBlog This is a report from some of the findings of the lass mass testing on Singularity
A1: "The women! Give back the women!" A2: "Hopefully about 55 kilos." (I find the in-game "female corpse" mass... disturbing.)
MDD
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:52:00 -
[67]
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
I think he is referring to the CSM Meeting Minutes:
Quote: 14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence
CCP Attendees: Nathan û CCP Oveur, Erlendur û CCP Explorer
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE. There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
...
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.
Summary:
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction of CCP. The CSM stated that thereÆs a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against the promised excellence initiative.
CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
This is more or less the "other" part of the situation, which combined with the "technical" part constitutes the big picture. For product, business, etc.
This is why I thought it'd be a good idea for you and CSM to tackle that one together, you know:
Originally by: Vilhjßlmur Thorsteinsson CCPæs culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?
The metrics about sales and quality? The point there was pretty simple and the numbers behind it as well. Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
We're never going to ship an expansion like that again. We're still cleaning up after it.
But in many other respects, it was a great expansion and great experience finally having better exploration in EVE.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:53:00 -
[68]
Originally by: SokoleOko
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
It's not assumption. Just yesterday I was roaming in Vale/Geminate and lag was unbearable - with only 20 ppl on local we were unable to jump or to load grid after the jump. Presumably because there was a battle somewhere else.
It is the players, not the server statitics, that play this game. And the customer is always right... right?
Difference between how it looks on paper, versus the practical reception. Customers aren't always right btw, sometimes an enterprise needs to stay a course, but only after calculating in risk/reward vs the timeline. A smart enterprise will always listen, explain, and make sure that the immersion remains part of the process.
Technical state vs. reception of immersion. Didn't Hilmar once say "perception defines reality"?
Btw, this is really great. Been years since I've seen a thread like this, where CCP was sticking to fearless and just saying it "as is", burning trolls and still showcasing communication and important stuff. Kudos.
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:55:00 -
[69]
Originally by: SokoleOko
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
It's not assumption. Just yesterday I was roaming in Vale/Geminate and lag was unbearable - with only 20 ppl on local we were unable to jump or to load grid after the jump. Presumably because there was a battle somewhere else.
It is the players, not the server statitics, that play this game. And the customer is always right... right?
I don't get your point. I wasn't saying that there isn't lag.
I was saying that it's wrong to assume that the lag that you are experiencing today is Dominions fault.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Also very sorry that you think I look worse. I'm not sure how else to explain to you than with numbers our commitment. Interpretive dance perhaps?
FTFY This signature is useless, but it is red.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 18:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:03:00 -
[72]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Malcanis
May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?
PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.
Of course, the whole point of meeting minutes is to read them over and agree that's what happened in the meeting. Otherwise they aren't meeting minutes
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
Specifically the metrics that you (CCP) are quoted as saying "do not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features"
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
bitter vetiranarian
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:08:00 -
[73]
Too little too late imo.
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Dalmont Delantee
Gallente Fidelis Discordia
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:08:00 -
[74]
CCP Oveur is is possible you can do something about the 'special' people who post rubbish about strange conspiracies and explain to the lovely people that the walking in stations they so craved befroe they were told about it ('tards) and changed their mind needs the kind of resources you are spending on it.
Also that you wouldn't put out a prettying and pointless feature so something had to be added for it to work (incarna/dust/PI etc)?
IT might help those 'special' people to actually not cry like babies....
Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons |
SokoleOko
Minmatar Pink Bunnies
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:08:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CCP Oveur I don't get your point. I wasn't saying that there isn't lag.
I was saying that it's wrong to assume that the lag that you are experiencing today is Dominions fault.
And no-one - I believe - is saying that "lag is because of one of Dominion's features". When players say "Dominion" it's rather reference to a point in time.
Also, I remember from CSM Minutes CCP's statement along the lines "server statistics are better that they ever was".
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: iP0D
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
I think he is referring to the CSM Meeting Minutes:
Quote: 14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence
CCP Attendees: Nathan û CCP Oveur, Erlendur û CCP Explorer
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE. There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
...
CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.
Summary:
The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction of CCP. The CSM stated that thereÆs a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against the promised excellence initiative.
CCP disagreed strongly with the claim that it isnÆt committed to excellence and feels that the resources being used to constantly improve Eve Online are a clear sign of this commitment.
This is more or less the "other" part of the situation, which combined with the "technical" part constitutes the big picture. For product, business, etc.
This is why I thought it'd be a good idea for you and CSM to tackle that one together, you know:
Originally by: Vilhjßlmur Thorsteinsson CCPæs culture is strong, and is built on four core values: We are fearless, we stand united, we pursue excellence, we practice transparency. Such values cannot simply be dictated by committe or by installed by fiat. They have to be lived and breathed by everyone in the company, including the board and its chairman, or they are not credible. Also, the values are truly validated only when there is a crisis or a severe test facing the company. Will it then live up to its values, or are they empty talk?
The metrics about sales and quality? The point there was pretty simple and the numbers behind it as well. Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
We're never going to ship an expansion like that again. We're still cleaning up after it.
But in many other respects, it was a great expansion and great experience finally having better exploration in EVE.
It may have been buggy for you, but it was great for us, because it fixed one of our biggest problems: lag (Actually it fixed several game structure problems). Polish means something rather different to you than it does to us.
Polish to us means gameplay that works. Apocrypha delivered this. As far as we the players are concerned Apocrypha scores pretty highly on what we think of as "polish". I understand that to you guys as coders it might have looked like a plate of spaghetti with live eel sauce, but to us it was great not because of W-space or T3, but because a really really important part of the game started working a whole lot better. W-space and T3 were both great, but NFS was what really made it good.
In short, I can definitely understand why you said what you did, but I think you're radically misinterpreting the data. And I can point to thousands of posts on your forums that support my interpretation and contradict yours.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:11:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Dalmont Delantee
CCP Oveur is is possible you can do something about the 'special' people who post rubbish about strange conspiracies and explain to the lovely people that the walking in stations they so craved befroe they were told about it ('tards) and changed their mind needs the kind of resources you are spending on it.
Also that you wouldn't put out a prettying and pointless feature so something had to be added for it to work (incarna/dust/PI etc)?
IT might help those 'special' people to actually not cry like babies....
Not likely. Those are two different groups of people. One who want Incarna and complained that it hasn't come out yet and the other who wants to blame world hunger on Incarna.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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MARS VICTOR
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
We're never going to ship an expansion like that again. We're still cleaning up after it.
Was it not after Apocrypha that you switched to Agile? I do wonder how a value set like that of apocrypha would be handled through Scrum. It's clear Apocrypha created a technical debt, but how would that be within the use of scrum.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
But in many other respects, it was a great expansion and great experience finally having better exploration in EVE.
Look at it from player's eyes: it was an awesome expansion that deliverd to a wide variety of player types and styles of gameplay.
Compare this to say Tyrannis, and maybe then it is more clear why we worry. Even then, from again a player view, Tyrannis basically showed us the marketing can't be relied on for content delivered, plus it was quite a bit late and cut in two. I'm not sure if I am making it clear enough, but one example seems to be a case of technical debt of an old system, the other of expecation divide in a new system. It is clear wich one had more customer value, that this requires a compromise in approach is clear to us.
Also, let's please avoid the technical approach of that feedback thread to the previous Zulupark blog This current approach is much better then what we saw in that thread. What we see here (really, it is appreciated) is valuable to us. It's different from the long time of impression of "let's avoid the issue and throw in some numbers". No disrespect, you know, this is ticky stuff, it's appearances and perspectives and all that human communication stuff.
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Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:14:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Oveur rabble rabble
backpeddle more
Having been a supporter of CCP and often defending or explaining your actions when discussed over at pandemic-legion.com, I even get accused of being a "dev". Although this accusation is untrue it has gotten harder for me to explain or defend some of the paths CCP has taken in recent history...
EVE PIRATE BattleDB.com |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:15:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Malcanis
May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?
PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.
Of course, the whole point of meeting minutes is to read them over and agree that's what happened in the meeting. Otherwise they aren't meeting minutes
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
Specifically the metrics that you (CCP) are quoted as saying "do not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features"
Ah, I answered that above. That was about Apocrypha. Feature-loaden-bug-ridden expansion that sold very well.
We we hadn't before pushed that many new features into a single expansion and won't do that again. Tyrannis was basically 2 features.
I was actually reading my presentation from 2006 which kicked off the Need For Speed initiative back then. Our strategy then was 1 new feature vs 5 improvements to current systems.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:16:00 -
[81]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The metrics about sales and quality? The point there was pretty simple and the numbers behind it as well. Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
According to your bean-counting clipboard, perhaps. Do the customers get a say in which expansions they think are the most buggiest? Not all bugs are equal.
Taking all the fun out of large fleet warfare is a pretty big bug. Inducing carpal tunnel to fuel POSes via PI is not a bug, right? Broken as intended?
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We're never going to ship an expansion like that again. We're still cleaning up after it.
You should be saying this about Tyrannis, which came out two weeks late, with game-breaking bugs requiring an emergency patch, and a remarkably terrible UI, even for EVE.
Dominion was at least a fair attempt to improve goofy sov mechanics, otherwise I'd throw that in too.
Related: anyone want to come shoot a stationary object with 22 million HP with me? We're working on putting it into its second RF timer.
Originally by: CCP Oveur But in many other respects, it was a great expansion and great experience finally having better exploration in EVE.
Yes -- your customers are happy with it. The features work well and were a distinct improvement over existing gameplay.
Perhaps back then 'broken as intended' was not an acceptable state of affairs.
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LegendaryFrog
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: LegendaryFrog on 13/08/2010 19:21:10
Originally by: CCP Oveur I was actually reading my presentation from 2006 which kicked off the Need For Speed initiative back then. Our strategy then was 1 new feature vs 5 improvements to current systems.
That is all we could ever ask for.
I think some of the confusion surround your comments about Apocrypha is that with so many new features added, the user experience on launch was surprisingly good. In comparison, with Tyrannis (which only added a couple of features as you mentioned), some major game breaking bugs managed to make it to launch (POS guns firing on blues?). It is hard to understand why, with less features, more -noticeable- bugs were introduced.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:20:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Malcanis Polish to us means gameplay that works. Apocrypha delivered this. As far as we the players are concerned Apocrypha scores pretty highly on what we think of as "polish". I understand that to you guys as coders it might have looked like a plate of spaghetti with live eel sauce, but to us it was great not because of W-space or T3, but because a really really important part of the game started working a whole lot better. W-space and T3 were both great, but NFS was what really made it good.
Quantum Rise (just before Apocrypha) contained a lot of performance enhancements, in particular StacklessIO and EVE64, and Apocrypha 1.2, 1.3 and 1.5 contained performance enhancements as well (especially 1.2).
I would submit that in Apocrypha you were originally experiencing Quantum Rise as far as performance was concerned and then in Apocrypha 1.3 and later.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:23:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Malcanis
May we assume that you will read the next CSM minutes?
PS Have you re-evaluated your opinion of those "metrics"? You know the ones I mean.
Of course, the whole point of meeting minutes is to read them over and agree that's what happened in the meeting. Otherwise they aren't meeting minutes
I actually don't know which metrics you're referring to or which of my opinions. But I'm pretty sure you're about to enlighten me since you worded it like that.
Specifically the metrics that you (CCP) are quoted as saying "do not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features"
Ah, I answered that above. That was about Apocrypha. Feature-loaden-bug-ridden expansion that sold very well.
We we hadn't before pushed that many new features into a single expansion and won't do that again. Tyrannis was basically 2 features.
Yeah, 2 features which might work perfectly in a coding sense, but from a gameplay sense, they dont work very well at all. Again, the disconnect between what you think of as "polished" and what we do.
You know what the best part by miles of Dominion was? The projectiles rebalance. Ignorant as I am of coding, I'm going to guess that it didn't take a lot of code work to do this at all, but it made a HUGE difference to the gameplay experience of thousands and thousands of your customers. It was a massive step forward in what we think of as "polish", because something that didn't work suddenly worked great. From a coding perspective, nothing much changed - a few constant values were modified, the database and item descriptions were updated, good job guys, what's next on the list for this morning?
That was polish.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I was actually reading my presentation from 2006 which kicked off the Need For Speed initiative back then. Our strategy then was 1 new feature vs 5 improvements to current systems.
That was a great strategy.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:23:00 -
[85]
Originally by: wr3cks Dominion was at least a fair attempt to improve goofy sov mechanics, otherwise I'd throw that in too.
Related: anyone want to come shoot a stationary object with 22 million HP with me? We're working on putting it into its second RF timer.
I've been in those fleets, possibly with you. Remember what it was like rolling POSs? This is better, not great, but much better.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:29:00 -
[86]
Originally by: CCP Oveur The metrics about sales and quality? The point there was pretty simple and the numbers behind it as well. Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
We're never going to ship an expansion like that again. We're still cleaning up after it.
But in many other respects, it was a great expansion and great experience finally having better exploration in EVE.
There often does seem to be a great gap between those who are focused on the technical side of things and us players, who get our value from the emotions that come from immersing into the environment you created for us (and that we ourselves evolve through our own actions).
Somewhere in the middle is the right balance, from the perspective of making money and keeping customers satisfied. I'm sure that is a moving target but EVE players seem pretty consistent in identifying what we love about this very special "game" (even if we ***** at the same time about all the stuff we hate).
To me, that's why this kind of dialog is sooooo important. Perspective from both sides is vital in the extremely unique situation we have here where differences in perspective can be openly debated and ways to close the gap energetically discussed in a public venue.
Life In Low Sec |
MARS VICTOR
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:31:00 -
[87]
Originally by: LegendaryFrog
Originally by: CCP Oveur I was actually reading my presentation from 2006 which kicked off the Need For Speed initiative back then. Our strategy then was 1 new feature vs 5 improvements to current systems.
That is all we could ever ask for.
I think some of the confusion surround your comments about Apocrypha is that with so many new features added, the user experience on launch was surprisingly good. In comparison, with Tyrannis (which only added a couple of features as you mentioned), some major game breaking bugs managed to make it to launch (POS guns firing on blues?). It is hard to understand why, with less features, more -noticeable- bugs were introduced.
What he said. That's the confusing part here. The "big" apocrypha had a few issues, but was great and was followed up on. The "small" Tyrannis expansion is basically empty, had a horrible and frankly emberassing deployment (the market issues that had been bugreported weeks before which had drastic impact), plus overall in terms of gameplay it has already succumbed to bots on a massive scale for Planetary Ineraction. A followup on Tyrannis elements is .. well .. part of a future expansion. Apparently.
In a way, PI to many feels like it may very well become another case of how POS lasted for years of tears until finally things were changed. Doesn't mean that'll end up that way, but .. it's not like we've had real precedent on this - if that makes sense.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:32:00 -
[88]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Malcanis Polish to us means gameplay that works. Apocrypha delivered this. As far as we the players are concerned Apocrypha scores pretty highly on what we think of as "polish". I understand that to you guys as coders it might have looked like a plate of spaghetti with live eel sauce, but to us it was great not because of W-space or T3, but because a really really important part of the game started working a whole lot better. W-space and T3 were both great, but NFS was what really made it good.
Quantum Rise (just before Apocrypha) contained a lot of performance enhancements, in particular StacklessIO and EVE64, and Apocrypha 1.2, 1.3 and 1.5 contained performance enhancements as well (epsecially 1.2).
I would submit that in Apocrypha you were originally experiencing Quantum Rise as far as performance was concerned and then in Apocrypha 1.3 and later.
Yeah, casting my mind back, I agree.
But that doesn't matter. In fact it nicely illustrates my point.
It was in Apocrypha that we perceived the improvement, so Apocrypha gets the credit. This is what I'm trying to get across here: you can make a million jillion coding improvements, and we wont give you a teeny tiny thank you. You can write code that would make Kernigan and Ritchie report you to the Coders Inquisition, and we wont mind. What matters to your customers is how well the game works.
All that code quality stuff: great. I'm glad you're doing it and I am glad to see resources put in to what can only have a positive long term effect. But the fact is, it's really for your benefit, not ours. It doesn't do us any direct good at all. It's only good for us insofar as it means we see improved game-play.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: MARS VICTOR Was it not after Apocrypha that you switched to Agile? I do wonder how a value set like that of apocrypha would be handled through Scrum. It's clear Apocrypha created a technical debt, but how would that be within the use of scrum.
We switched to scrum at the beginning of Apocrypha. It worked well to coordinate a large number of people to make a large number of features. Unfortunately it resulted in a large number of defect reports.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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MARS VICTOR
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:40:00 -
[90]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: MARS VICTOR Was it not after Apocrypha that you switched to Agile? I do wonder how a value set like that of apocrypha would be handled through Scrum. It's clear Apocrypha created a technical debt, but how would that be within the use of scrum.
We switched to scrum at the beginning of Apocrypha. It worked well to coordinate a large number of people to make a large number of features. Unfortunately it resulted in a large number of defect reports.
So, you did something that massive effectively while switching systems and methods. Speaking from experience it does not strike me as a surprise then that this created technical debt. Have you factored this in as one of the origins of either human resource or systems pattern factors leading to technical debt? Traditionally in our (software) industry) it is a primary cause in such circumstances of technical debt after all. That's why an inroduction of transition to Scrum is always accompanied by engaging in smaller projects.
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:40:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: CCP Oveur Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".
And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.
Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies
Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?
Update your Bio Info please!
Kids these days..
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Mynxee
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:40:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We switched to scrum at the beginning of Apocrypha. It worked well to coordinate a large number of people to make a large number of features. Unfortunately it resulted in a large number of defect reports.
I wonder how much of that was due to "culture shock" at a new way of doing things...that usually always poses communications and process challenges because it has its own learning curve. After gaining experience and expertise in the SCRUM methodology, one would assume that teams could undertake a similarly large expansion with relatively far fewer defects. But...I'm just guessing, as I have no direct experience in this myself.
Life In Low Sec |
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:41:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Malcanis
It may have been buggy for you, but it was great for us, because it fixed one of our biggest problems: lag (Actually it fixed several game structure problems). Polish means something rather different to you than it does to us.
Polish to us means gameplay that works. Apocrypha delivered this. As far as we the players are concerned Apocrypha scores pretty highly on what we think of as "polish". I understand that to you guys as coders it might have looked like a plate of spaghetti with live eel sauce, but to us it was great not because of W-space or T3, but because a really really important part of the game started working a whole lot better. W-space and T3 were both great, but NFS was what really made it good.
In short, I can definitely understand why you said what you did, but I think you're radically misinterpreting the data. And I can point to thousands of posts on your forums that support my interpretation and contradict yours.
Again, this isn't my opinion. The context was about Apocrypha versus other expansions and how well they sold. I was stating a fact about pure numbers. Everybody here loved Apocrypha, including me - and that's my opinion.
Quantum Rise was actually the very focused Need for Speed expansion and had StacklessIO, not Apocrypha. The performance work in Apocrypha was a lot of work being done post-Quantum Rise. Apocrypha basically only had feature teams.
So sure, we have different nomenclature and that's always a great way to misunderstand each other. Polish for me is a team working on a feature and then iterating on it and incorporating feedback based on testing. It has nothing to do with bugs, because we call that bugfixing. The Apocrypha feature teams had no teams for polish because we were neck deep in bugfixing and I'm pretty sure any of our game designers will come here and tell you that they had no time for polish.
But again, I and everybody else, love Apocrypha. We're still not going to cram this many features into an expansion because we want more time for polish and iteration.
That's why I disagreed with the CSM that we weren't striving for Excellence. We still are, we don't believe we're there yet - in fact I think we'll never believe we'll get there because if we do, I'm sure we'll find ways to do even better.
That's how CCP was born. We didn't give up despite running out of money, despite our launch being bug- and lagfest of epic proportions. We kept on developing, making it better, more expansions. And we believe this is why we're here today. Because we stick to our game, we keep on developing it and we care about it. It's why the others died and we're still here after 7 years and still growing. I'm fine with us disagreeing whether we have achieved it or not, only way for us to show it is by delivering a better experience. Talk is cheap. But I most certainly will not agree with anyone that we don't try.
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:41:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Indeterminacy on 13/08/2010 19:41:34
Originally by: Malcanis bunch of stuff
tl;dr perception is reality.
Glad to have some meaningful communication on this issue. If a bit late in coming.
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Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:43:00 -
[95]
Have you figured out why the game worked a year ago and stopped working about 8 months ago?
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SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:43:00 -
[96]
Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: MARS VICTOR Was it not after Apocrypha that you switched to Agile? I do wonder how a value set like that of apocrypha would be handled through Scrum. It's clear Apocrypha created a technical debt, but how would that be within the use of scrum.
We switched to scrum at the beginning of Apocrypha. It worked well to coordinate a large number of people to make a large number of features. Unfortunately it resulted in a large number of defect reports.
So, you did something that massive effectively while switching systems and methods. Speaking from experience it does not strike me as a surprise then that this created technical debt. Have you factored this in as one of the origins of either human resource or systems pattern factors leading to technical debt? Traditionally in our (software) industry) it is a primary cause in such circumstances of technical debt after all. That's why an inroduction of transition to Scrum is always accompanied by engaging in smaller projects.
That's a pretty good question actually.
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Dakisha
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:46:00 -
[97]
Originally by: CCP Oveur excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long
Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?
Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.
Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..
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Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:47:00 -
[98]
Nice update. Looking forward to the blog blob.
Speaking of polish and iterations, any hints as to Winter expansion plans?
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:47:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe Have you figured out why the game worked a year ago and stopped working about 8 months ago?
It was answered in the first 3 pages of this thread. Read it.
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:49:00 -
[100]
Originally by: SIEGE RED
Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: MARS VICTOR Was it not after Apocrypha that you switched to Agile? I do wonder how a value set like that of apocrypha would be handled through Scrum. It's clear Apocrypha created a technical debt, but how would that be within the use of scrum.
We switched to scrum at the beginning of Apocrypha. It worked well to coordinate a large number of people to make a large number of features. Unfortunately it resulted in a large number of defect reports.
So, you did something that massive effectively while switching systems and methods. Speaking from experience it does not strike me as a surprise then that this created technical debt. Have you factored this in as one of the origins of either human resource or systems pattern factors leading to technical debt? Traditionally in our (software) industry) it is a primary cause in such circumstances of technical debt after all. That's why an inroduction of transition to Scrum is always accompanied by engaging in smaller projects.
That's a pretty good question actually.
Yes we did. Both were large contributing factors.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:53:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Viper ****zIe Have you figured out why the game worked a year ago and stopped working about 8 months ago?
It was answered in the first 3 pages of this thread. Read it.
All I heard were excuses about why they wouldn't be devoting any time to fixing the numerous problems until Winter 2011
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:54:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Quesa on 13/08/2010 19:55:39 To say that Apoc code is what's causing the server performance dump may be true. However, to state that Dominion code had nothing to do with it is disingenuous because it was a very abrupt change when Dominion was released.
I also appreciate that CCP dev's are starting to post more on these types of threads. The biggest hindrance to your stature is the inability to communicate to the player-base effectively, basically leaving everyone in the dark about problems for fear of saying something that some ass-hat will hold you to 5 years down the line.
Rational people appreciate honesty over sticking to timelines, development plans or cycles.
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:54:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Viper ****zIe Have you figured out why the game worked a year ago and stopped working about 8 months ago?
It was answered in the first 3 pages of this thread. Read it.
All I heard were excuses about why they wouldn't be devoting any time to fixing the numerous problems until Winter 2011
Then the answer to your question would be no
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CCP Oveur
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:55:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long
Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?
Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.
Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..
How do you suggest these persons comment on what I said in a meeting and clarify that, which they weren't in or didn't hear?
You might also want to read my other comments on the blogs. I just stated that the only way to fix lag is by fixing it. I'm not trying any jedi mind tricks or smoke and mirrors. The lag will go, you will notice it and that's when we've proved that we put a lot of effort into it.
Well, cya all - I'm very late for dinner now.
Executive Producer EVE Online
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio
Originally by: CCP Zulu We call this the long battle on lag because there's not a single issue that creates lag or removes it.
Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Yet all this didn't fix "the lag". So maybe those bugs aren't the "big ones" that cause it.
You appear so desperately to attribute "the lag" to things before Dominion and try to back that up with a lot of bug fixes to older code. But do you realise this also means those bug fixes did not fix the problem? Further more Apocrypha (the last expansion before Dominion) was perceived as the expansion with the biggest performance boost, so it's kinda hard to believe you when you say "lag started before well before Dominion".
Originally by: CCP Oveur The metrics about sales and quality? The point there was pretty simple and the numbers behind it as well. Apocrypha which was taken as an example for a great expansion and sold very well, was the most buggiest expansion we have done and created the largest technical debt of any expansion before and we even cut a ton of features due to technical issues with them. There, poor quality sold boatloads.
A mistake is as serious as the consequences it causes. The same is true about bugs: A thousand incredibly stupid bugs that cause reversible problems (iow. things that "heal" themselves, potentially even without the user ever knowing there was a problem) is nothing compared to one bug that causes total data loss. Even if that bug is a very small "one off" bug. So just going after the total number of bugs in an expansion is a bit shallow.
Your flagship feature performed best under Apocrypha and now it performs as poorly as never before in the last year. How can you take that as an indicator that "poor quality sold boatloads.". It did not sell because of all the bugs you saw but because of the features that worked so well. There is a great difference between the internal quality of a software and the quality perceived by the users. Things like usefulness or ease-of-use are outside your code metrics.
You appear to think that you don't need to look at the number of working features that remain in the release and only need to count the bugs and cancelled features to predict the success of an expansion. And as Explorer so eloquently explained a lot of the things that keep getting requested aren't even bugs, they are "design changes"...
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:56:00 -
[106]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Thank you for spending so much of your time replying to me. I do appreciate it. Obviously we have different perspectives on identical goal: to have the best EVE possible.
I'll leave it with this: you have a really, really valuable resource in the CSM. Particularly this CSM. It's not a question of being "right" or "wrong", it's a question of different perspectives. That's the common theme that has run through this whole furore. You really need that alternative perspective, because - as you imply with your "heads down" phrase - you guys have kind of lost touch with us somewhere along the way. You really need that alternative perspective to get it back.
I know that the CSM are going to say things you wont like hearing, and they're going to have an interpretation of the things you guys say that might not accord with your own, and it's going to be hard work, but please dont succumb to the temptation to sideline or ignore them. And most especially dont hold back on communicating with them because you're worried about the rest of us not liking what you say. That's only successful in avoiding bad feeling in the very short term.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:57:00 -
[107]
Cheers to Oveur for taking command of this thread. While I am still unsatisfied with the current state of the game, it is a relief to see someone of intelligence finally answering the questions. I look forward to the tech blogs ... and progress.
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HenkieBoy
Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 19:59:00 -
[108]
This whole lag stuff.. why was the sov change made in a way to get even more lag? I mean, we even have to blob more. Before the sov changes we shot posses, alot.. and with the new sov we need to shoot a couple of structures inside the same system within the same timeframe.
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Arimathea Anthalas
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:00:00 -
[109]
Oveur, let me let you in on something you've probably already figured out. The more talking you do the happier people are. Whether it's esoterica like semaphores and locks and Stackless Python multiprocessor work or whether it's internal process talk, that kind of **** all helps the player base understand what's going on. While I think universally the improvements vs new features comment faces disapproval by the majority of the player base, and while fixes to long-standing issues (assault frigates, T3 blackops cynos vs work on walking in space and console stuff) are sorely needed probably moreso than discussion, discussion helps. So thanks.
The best thing you can do to restore confidence from the bitter vet crowd is to start spitting out fixes and adjustments rather than letting them flounder in endless balance discussion and be more verbal (and even deep, not all of us need it spoon fed) to the players. One or two minor fixes to long standing issues would go a long way.
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wr3cks
Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:00:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long
Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?
Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.
Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..
Seconded. Also, wasn't this the focus of a 1.5 hour meeting?
CSM: We think a lot of content and features are released with low quality and bugs. Nathan: We find new features sell better than polished content. <90 minutes of back and forth>
<a month later> Nathan: Er, what I meant was, we're going to continue making buggy content just like apocrypha. You see, we'll release big, new features that worked just fine on scheduled release without breaking any important game functionality (like working 300v300 fleet fights). But, boy, if you could look at our clipboard, it sure had a lot of bugs.
Funny that this was discussed face to face for 90+ minutes, and then in god knows how many 50+ page threads for a month, and this comes out only now. OOOOooooh what I meant was the exact opposite!
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SIEGE RED
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:03:00 -
[111]
Edited by: SIEGE RED on 13/08/2010 20:04:54
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Thank you for spending so much of your time replying to me. I do appreciate it. Obviously we have different perspectives on identical goal: to have the best EVE possible.
I'll leave it with this: you have a really, really valuable resource in the CSM. Particularly this CSM. It's not a question of being "right" or "wrong", it's a question of different perspectives. That's the common theme that has run through this whole furore. You really need that alternative perspective, because - as you imply with your "heads down" phrase - you guys have kind of lost touch with us somewhere along the way. You really need that alternative perspective to get it back.
I know that the CSM are going to say things you wont like hearing, and they're going to have an interpretation of the things you guys say that might not accord with your own, and it's going to be hard work, but please dont succumb to the temptation to sideline or ignore them. And most especially dont hold back on communicating with them because you're worried about the rest of us not liking what you say. That's only successful in avoiding bad feeling in the very short term.
Now those two posts, make a great post (full posts, not just the quotes).
together.
And yeah, sure we still have to see results, but this is excellent.
Malcanis is right on the CSM thing as well, I've always been "oh it's for the emo kids to feel popular" where it comes to the CSM, but this CSM has changed that. Particularly Mynxee and Trebor. CCP would do good in placing solid value on the process, and on the people.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:12:00 -
[112]
Nice blog, Zulu. I think you should have done this a month ago, to be honest, but at least this way, you're showing us that you're at least doing something.
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Washukanni
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:12:00 -
[113]
So does this mean you might look at Faction Warfare sometime in the next five years?
How about the COSMOS refresh that was promised all those years ago..(you should have some personal insights into this area from 'in game' play)
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:18:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.
Waaa....what??
And..and the .... beer??? No beer mentioned? That can't be the real Oveur!!!
Hey, hehe, awesome seeing you guys back on track again. Hope you had a good summer vaction. Yay!
Those 18 months, haha, that was funny. People can be so ... yuck, stupid? Suuuure... no new stuff for Eve for 18 months, all development cancelled, yadayada, lolz.
Looking forward to the blogs.
<3 CCP |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:22:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Bomberlocks Nice blog, Zulu. I think you should have done this a month ago, to be honest, but at least this way, you're showing us that you're at least thinking about doing something.
FYP
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:28:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 13/08/2010 20:34:51
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Thank you for spending so much of your time replying to me. I do appreciate it. Obviously we have different perspectives on identical goal: to have the best EVE possible.
I'll leave it with this: you have a really, really valuable resource in the CSM. Particularly this CSM. It's not a question of being "right" or "wrong", it's a question of different perspectives. That's the common theme that has run through this whole furore. You really need that alternative perspective, because - as you imply with your "heads down" phrase - you guys have kind of lost touch with us somewhere along the way. You really need that alternative perspective to get it back.
I know that the CSM are going to say things you wont like hearing, and they're going to have an interpretation of the things you guys say that might not accord with your own, and it's going to be hard work, but please dont succumb to the temptation to sideline or ignore them. And most especially dont hold back on communicating with them because you're worried about the rest of us not liking what you say. That's only successful in avoiding bad feeling in the very short term.
Here, Oveur, I hope you read Malcanis' posts well, because they summarize some of the problems we're currently facing when trying to get our view to you. For example our perception of quality doesn't include your code and it's execution or implementation, because it's simply not existing from our player-pov. When we're talking about quality, we talk about game-play, lag-freeness, low latency and well working features, not technical execution of zeroes and ones. Of course we know, that is part of your view, but when communicating with us, please try to think of where our view comes from, because we simply lack access to things, which are trivial to you.
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Isten Baba
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:28:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Isten Baba on 13/08/2010 20:29:04
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.
Cool!
A small request:
Would it be possible in any way to clarify how much of EVE subscriber money (resources) goes to Dust (why? what are you thinking?!?) and vampires?
You are obviously enitled to do with subscriber money as you please, but I'm really concerned as an EVE customer.
I will stay with EVE regardless of flaws, mistakes, lag, bad expansions (PI), features that don't interest me (Incarna), and slow development. It is still a wonderful game that I enjoy.
However, if these problems are the result of less CCP commitment to EVE and greater resource dedication to other games (FPS and vampires? seriously?), I'm not sure I want to hang around. I want my money to go to the game I play, and not to making CCP yet another gaming behemoth.
So, please put my worried little mind at ease (if you can)!
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:31:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Quesa To say that Apoc code is what's causing the server performance dump may be true. However, to state that Dominion code had nothing to do with it is disingenuous because it was a very abrupt change when Dominion was released.
I answered this earlier in this thread.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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okst666
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:33:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Isten Baba Edited by: Isten Baba on 13/08/2010 20:29:04
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.
Cool!
A small request:
Would it be possible in any way to clarify how much of EVE subscriber money (resources) goes to Dust (why? what are you thinking?!?) and vampires?
You are obviously enitled to do with subscriber money as you please, but I'm really concerned as an EVE customer.
I will stay with EVE regardless of flaws, mistakes, lag, bad expansions (PI), features that don't interest me (Incarna), and slow development. It is still a wonderful game that I enjoy.
However, if these problems are the result of less CCP commitment to EVE and greater resource dedication to other games (FPS and vampires? seriously?), I'm not sure I want to hang around. I want my money to go to the game I play, and not to making CCP yet another gaming behemoth.
So, please put my worried little mind at ease (if you can)!
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SkinSin
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:37:00 -
[120]
Edited by: SkinSin on 13/08/2010 20:37:50 That's nice. A reply at last. And although lag is extremely important, there are other things than lag! Are you going to also make an attempt to finish the things that currently aren't, or the things that are currently broken (FW, COSMOS, ludicrous sov mechanics, invention, the bounty system, null sec, etc) or are you just going to stick to actually trying to finish PI and making minor tweaks to things?!
Seriously, the amount of unfinished content in Eve is embarrassing. It's like you work on it for one patch cycle and then abandon it for 3 years, rather than finishing it!
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Eternum Praetorian
True Creation
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:40:00 -
[121]
A cross post of this thread was locked and we were instructed to post here instead.
Mine went like:
==================================================================== "Eternum holds up pitch fork!!
"Rabble-rabble-rabble-senselessly-rabble!!!!" ====================================================================
Ok, now you are all caught up. You may commence.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:41:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: mrpapageorgio Wrong, Dominion.
That's actually a wrong assumption. I'd elaborate but I can't use numbers. It makes me look worse.
To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Yet all this didn't fix "the lag". So maybe those bugs aren't the "big ones" that cause it.
If you read carefully then some of these fixes haven't been deployed to TQ yet so they haven't fixed lag yet. One was also only deployed yesterday so it will be interesting to see what happens this weekend. But, yes, there is more and we are actively looking for it. Originally by: Ban Doga You appear so desperately to attribute "the lag" to things before Dominion and try to back that up with a lot of bug fixes to older code. But do you realise this also means those bug fixes did not fix the problem? Further more Apocrypha (the last expansion before Dominion) was perceived as the expansion with the biggest performance boost, so it's kinda hard to believe you when you say "lag started before well before Dominion".
I answered this earlier in this thread.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 20:47:00 -
[123]
It's ok CCP Oveur and Explorer, I still love you. That goes for the rest of CCP too, and always will until you guys turn off the servers. Then that love will be converted into hate and rage.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:05:00 -
[124]
ouver in thread = best thread
ouver forum trolling is ace and we get infos -----------------------------------------------
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:16:00 -
[125]
This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.
1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.
2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.
3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
alittlebirdy
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how shít you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.
Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.
But you are right, we did listen and moved a lot more focus on fixing lag specifically than just fixing in general. More on that later in an upcoming blog.
Wait, are you trying to say we should be OMFG thankful you spend 20% of some kinda time fixing bugs YOU coded in (ya I understand what a bug is, itÆs not ôletÆs change this and make this bug we can fix laterö) and now 9months laterà are ôreallyö working on the lagà
Maybe made in china aint the problem the people making the shít think we should just be happy we have something that does not even work properly.
Guess what, go look up a b-52, that planes been in service for something like 60 yearsà and Boeing keeps making upgrades for it because, OMFG it makes them money. Does eve 7 years later make you money? Then HTFU and fix it and donÆt point out you spend time doing that. I donÆt care if it is a plane, a MMO, dog food, if the shít makes you money; you keep the people PAYING you happy with bug fixs and new upgrades IN DUE TIME.
Expansions every 6months were also noted, well maybe in 7 yearsà once every 6 has become too much work for the amount of people on hand, and it is time to evolve (or die) and change to 8, 10, 12 months, and/or devote OVER 20% to fixing bugs. Guess what, I donÆt tell friends to join eve because of expansions every 6 months over 12à(the word FREE is the big word in ôfree expansions every X monthsö not the X) I tell them DO NOT JOIN because I donÆt want to explain why I am telling em to spend money on a game that the graphics are screwed on (cats anyone?) and has bugs left and right! You pointed out that Apocrypha was the worst exp you put outà and you are still cleaning up after it, EVEN MORE REASON TO DROP THE 6MONTH TIME LINE. Apocrypha sold well because of what it added, bugs aside, and expected, at least for me. Everything you guys say just proves you are trying to run a unreal time table and need to change, yet refuse to and just want to push out more and more shít because the new shít sells better than a working game.
You also fail in saying that dominion was not the ôcauseö of the lag, it was obviously ôthe straw that broke the camelÆs backö then to put out ANOTHER expansionà is a royal slap in the face. How many more before the lag is fixed? Gona be a year soon,
HowÆs this as well ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Ya a lot of people want a ôdev blogö I want RESULTS, most of us know how this works, I sure as hell do customer calls up to complain they aint got their car yet ôyep we are working on itö shuts up the annoying customer that does not understand, they aint the only person with a car, and their issue is not easy. WhatÆs ôwe are working on itö hoods open, and thatÆs about ità That might have worked a month after the issue, 9 later, no sorry. And IÆve done programming and IÆve had to debug my work, and it took forever for ôstupidö mistakesà I understand you have omfg lines of code but it never took me 9 months to just be like ôya hey guysà well it turns out just throwing shít out the door every 6 months and kinda turned into this mountain of shít that has well, it hit a BIG fanà so IÆm working on itö
And don't get me wrong, I never thought I'd sub to a MMO till I played eve I liked (likED) it that much.
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Undertow Latheus
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:21:00 -
[127]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: CCP Oveur Only a handful of people saw it internally before it was published, that was kind of my point so nobody could say "hey!".
And no, people generally don't answer in my place. I speak for myself and elaborate on my own words.
Also, it's not nice to assume I'm telling you lies
Who Are you? What do you do? Why are you here?
Update your Bio Info please!
I'm Nathan Richardsson. Executive Producer for CCP. I'm responsible for all our games. I like spandex to an unhealthy degree.
"The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features" - Nathan Richardsson Signature removed due to non-EVE related.Applebabe |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:23:00 -
[128]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long
Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?
Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.
Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..
How do you suggest these persons comment on what I said in a meeting and clarify that, which they weren't in or didn't hear?
You might also want to read my other comments on the blogs. I just stated that the only way to fix lag is by fixing it. I'm not trying any jedi mind tricks or smoke and mirrors. The lag will go, you will notice it and that's when we've proved that we put a lot of effort into it.
Well, cya all - I'm very late for dinner now.
One thing that seriously puzzles me is the mass testing. It's been going on for about 8 months and yet, if I understand you correctly, you haven't found out what is causing the lag that (re)appeared after Dominion? 8 months to find a bug like that, even if it very complex code, seems terribly, terribly long.
Do you think you can give us a realistic assessment of when the bug could be found, taking into account all that you have looked at so far?
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Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:25:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Dakisha
Originally by: CCP Oveur excuses for 18 month quote sitting out there for so long
Ofc, the big ass 60+ page thread that repeatedly mentioned it on most every page - that same thread that all the devs were supposedly reading, that Helmar posted in - and not one of you thought to 'clarify' that little gem?
Instead you've now come out with a 'reinterpretation' of the same quote. That's fine if that's a face saving backpedal and you're going to work on the stuffs we want to see over the next 18 months - but somehow I suspect it's still all going to be WIS and Dust.
Oh; and thanks for the devblog that told us that you're going to give some more devblogs. I still can't quite believe that this is all a 60+ page FFFUUUUUUUU CCP thread managed to produce..
How do you suggest these persons comment on what I said in a meeting and clarify that, which they weren't in or didn't hear?
You might also want to read my other comments on the blogs. I just stated that the only way to fix lag is by fixing it. I'm not trying any jedi mind tricks or smoke and mirrors. The lag will go, you will notice it and that's when we've proved that we put a lot of effort into it.
Well, cya all - I'm very late for dinner now.
One thing that seriously puzzles me is the mass testing. It's been going on for about 8 months and yet, if I understand you correctly, you haven't found out what is causing the lag that (re)appeared after Dominion? 8 months to find a bug like that, even if it very complex code, seems terribly, terribly long.
Do you think you can give us a realistic assessment of when the bug could be found, taking into account all that you have looked at so far?
To be fair, there is a blog coming up detailing the mass tests.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:26:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Ranger 1 This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.
1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.
2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.
3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this.
QFT
CCP, thanks for the update. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:30:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Thank you for spending so much of your time replying to me. I do appreciate it. Obviously we have different perspectives on identical goal: to have the best EVE possible.
I'll leave it with this: you have a really, really valuable resource in the CSM. Particularly this CSM. It's not a question of being "right" or "wrong", it's a question of different perspectives. That's the common theme that has run through this whole furore. You really need that alternative perspective, because - as you imply with your "heads down" phrase - you guys have kind of lost touch with us somewhere along the way. You really need that alternative perspective to get it back.
I know that the CSM are going to say things you wont like hearing, and they're going to have an interpretation of the things you guys say that might not accord with your own, and it's going to be hard work, but please dont succumb to the temptation to sideline or ignore them. And most especially dont hold back on communicating with them because you're worried about the rest of us not liking what you say. That's only successful in avoiding bad feeling in the very short term.
I'm just quoting this post because I think it is so important. I am pretty sure that the player rage in the last month is what prompted this dev blog(s) and thread, and I do understand face-saving measures, because lookinng weak in front of your customers is no good thing, but the fact that you have started a two-way conversation with us is what will get you the most sympathy and understanding, and above all, patience until you finally figure out what happened to the code after Dominion.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:30:00 -
[132]
CCP guys, the CSM are your key to achieving a high signal to noise ratio.
They dig through and filter out much of the trolling you'll get going through an average forum thread, they are invaluable in this respect.
Projects Blog |
ArmyOfMe
TunDraGon Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:32:00 -
[133]
Good to see you back posting in a eve thread Oveur, it actually gives me some hope for eve again
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:40:00 -
[134]
Originally by: CCP Explorer To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not? So it took respecively 1, 2 and 3-4 months to fix each of these Dominion issues. And the fights back in April/May really were very playable. (Although obviously you had plenty of people who'd either quit playing or quit bothering with fleet fights that were still whining then about their experiences from a few months before).
*Then* (and this is the important bit completely missing from your post) you deployed Tyrannis and a whole load of new lag related problems surfaced, and the game was even less playable than immediately after Dominion.
Apocrypha of course had a month of us not being able to jump fleets through gates.
We can appreciate mistakes happen and lag is a tough issue in general, but pushing out (allliance warfare)game-breaking expansions relentlessly every six months with the mess then taking 1-4 months to clear up leaves the players pretty weary. The worrying thing is as Oveur said Tyrannis was basically just two features, and only one of those really ingame and *still* it was a huge problem. Please, please try to keep this in mind as you come up toward the winter expansion.
Originally by: CCP Oveur 20% spent on fixing stuff
I'm with you in your obvious love for the number 20. It really is a great number, the evenness of the number 2 mixed gently with the roundness of the number 10. It's importance in life is underrated too I'd say. I'm proud to have 20 fingers and toes and did you know most of had 20 milk teeth? 20 is also the first Primitive abundant number.
But when you spend 20% of your time fixing stuff and there's still so much left to fix, maybe it's time to embrace the number 30? (I know I know, but there are worse numbers). _
Northern Coalition - Best friends forever <3 |
Dipluz
Caldari Cookie Crew Leathermen
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:40:00 -
[135]
on damn time they take playerbase serious, before it gets more media attention --------------------------
I need COOKIES!
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Dzajic
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:41:00 -
[136]
I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.
Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content. |
Lanu
0utbreak
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:47:00 -
[137]
Oh how I love Oveur .
Looking forward to the techblogs!!
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:47:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Dzajic I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.
You might try reading, slowly, the thread again.
Here are the high points that you missed.
1: What they have discovered, and how they discovered it, will be laid bare in a number of upcoming dev blogs. 2: Work on testing, and developing fixes, has never stopped. Nor will it in the forseeable future. 3: The last fix was deployed yesterday and is being evaluated, more are in the pipeline. 4: Lag issues cause by Dominion have been addressed, the issues actually go far deeper than that.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:50:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Stick Cult on 13/08/2010 21:50:49
Originally by: Blazde The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not? So it took respecively 1, 2 and 3-4 months to fix each of these Dominion issues. And the fights back in April/May really were very playable. (Although obviously you had plenty of people who'd either quit playing or quit bothering with fleet fights that were still whining then about their experiences from a few months before).
*Then* (and this is the important bit completely missing from your post) you deployed Tyrannis and a whole load of new lag related problems surfaced, and the game was even less playable than immediately after Dominion.
Apocrypha of course had a month of us not being able to jump fleets through gates.
We can appreciate mistakes happen and lag is a tough issue in general, but pushing out (allliance warfare)game-breaking expansions relentlessly every six months with the mess then taking 1-4 months to clear up leaves the players pretty weary. The worrying thing is as Oveur said Tyrannis was basically just two features, and only one of those really ingame and *still* it was a huge problem. Please, please try to keep this in mind as you come up toward the winter expansion.
Fixing bugs or lag isn't simply an "lol look at this typo, bro!" and fixing it. You have to research the problem to find out wtf the problem actually is first. Then you have to figure out a way to fix it, implement that fix, and test it to see if it worked. It most likely didn't work, so head back to step 1 and start over again. If you have 5 big issues, yea, it'll take a few months to fix them all.
As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix. (for some reason, Apocypha 1.0.1 (build 84609) patch notes are gone) But it wasn't fixed in 1.0.2, which was 2 weeks after 1.0, and the next patch was a month after that. I KNOW it didn't take a month to fix, as I recall they fixed it in a few days, and waited for Patch TuesdayÖ to deploy in version 1.0.1.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:56:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: CCP Explorer To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not?
We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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zz01shagsme
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Posted - 2010.08.13 21:58:00 -
[141]
/me is a lot more happy now.
That is all it took, some communication!
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:00:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Dzajic I'm sorry CCP, but I still don't see you saying that you have understood exactly what causes the post Dominion performance issues, nor I see you saying that fixes to that specific issue are being worked on.
Please read the dev blog again and this reply as well.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:08:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Stick Cult As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix.
You're right it was 1 week, my bad (there's a timeline in a devlog). It felt like a month! To replace that point I'll just mention the constant desyncing that was introduced in Revelations 2 ( http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=549542 ) and took ~24 months to fix. Point is it's not enough to 'fix lag/etc' even if it's been worked on really really hard, it also needs to all stay fixed. _
Northern Coalition - Best friends forever <3 |
JasonKuehn
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:15:00 -
[144]
I just want to say that, regardless of what happens...
IT IS REALLY NICE TO FINALLY HAVE SOME COMMUNICATION!!
Just the fact that the gags finally came off and you guys are here answering questions is a huge relief. It makes us feel like you care.
I was seriously planning to cancel my two subscriptions this week having given up on this game becoming fun again. Hearing that you guys might actually care makes me willing to reconsider.
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Rikki Sals
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:17:00 -
[145]
Very nice. Love all the CCP posts. Communication is so key for MMOs.
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Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:18:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: Stick Cult As for the Apocrypha gate jump bug, my memory might suck, but as I recall it was introduced in Apocrypha 1.0 and fix in 1.0.1, which means it took a week to fix.
You're right it was 1 week, my bad (there's a timeline in a devlog). It felt like a month!
Very true...
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:20:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 13/08/2010 22:20:03 Can you tell us why SBU's have been broken* for coming up on 9 months with no fix, and no punishment for the people that abuse the broken mechanic?
(*Define Broken = For the past 9 months SBU's are able to be shot while still reading invulnerable. SBU's destroyed in this way are simply reimbursed, and the offending parties that shoot them are not punished, as it is STILL not classified as an exploit. Its actually happening as I make this post by Atlas pilots around EUU, who know full well that its a bug, that they are exploiting, thus by definition its an exploit, needing to be fixed)
This is a vital central mechanic of SOV warfare, that is totally stagnating 0.0 right now, everybody knows about the bug, and every entrenched entity just shoots the damn things, so making head way requires 23 hour a day baby sitting of the SBU's.
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okst666
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:24:00 -
[148]
Whats an SBU? Since I (and I think most of the playerbase) does not know what SBU or SOV is, it can't be a big issue.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:34:00 -
[149]
Originally by: okst666 Whats an SBU? Since I (and I think most of the playerbase) does not know what SBU or SOV is, it can't be a big issue.
Then good sir I would advise you to spend some time reading over the works people have spent time and energy entering into the great EVE Wiki
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Typhena
Eikpyrnir
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:41:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Typhena on 13/08/2010 22:44:03
Originally by: CCP Fallout Beginning Monday, August 16, we will be publishing a series of blogs outlining our initiative to tackle the infamous lag monster. CCP Zulu's newest blog provides us with a look at what's in store.
I know I will sound skeptic but I would prefer to see some results (and not devblogs) before I reactivate my account. I am tired of blah blah. Doesn't matter if it was Apoc, Dominion or Exodus .. game was better and now it has been really hard to play.
Cheers,
--- Sig Under Construction |
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Etien Aldragoran
Legitimate Corporation
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:46:00 -
[151]
CCP PR: The subscribers are really hounding us on our broken promises. Wonder how we can get out of this one? Random guy in the back of the room: Perhaps we can make an announcement that we're still planning on announcing how we plan to deal with it. In fact, we should make it a promise.
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Dzajic
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:48:00 -
[152]
Ahem... I know of February fixes. It would just be that... player feedback and some back from dead supercaps would disagree that they fixed much.
I'd really like this game to work, so I making a strange mix of sad and 101% sarcastic face atm writing this.
Either every 0.0 player is delusional and "It almost worked fine pre Dominion" is a false belief, or all the previous fixes haven't fixed enough of performance decreasing code.
Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content. |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:58:00 -
[153]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Blazde
Originally by: CCP Explorer To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
The mass-blackscreening client was also brought on by (or at least greatly exacerbated by) Dominion was it not?
We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started.
This is the clearest answer to the blackscreening that we've had until now.
This is kind of melodramatic, but saying you simply don't know, while a painful admission, gets us all on a clearer footing. We know what we're dealing with and then can go on from there. It won't get you forever, but it will definitely help.
P.S. In the mass-testing blog, do you think you will be able to describe the procedures you're using to debug the lag problem? I know that it opens you to criticism, but the criticism won't be any worse than you've faced recently, and above all, if you listen to inputs from some of the players who are employed in the field, you may get some valuable ideas.
It may even be related to the desync or the sticking-at-jump-gate issues that plague a number of players, you never know. This last one happened to me tonight, for example in losec, for example. I get the feeling that a session change request is sent and confirmation that the session is about to change is received but that the new information (system, grid) is never sent, or not received. It reminds me of UDP issues on certain older software that I vaguely remember.
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Dr Lebroi
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Posted - 2010.08.13 22:59:00 -
[154]
This is very good, thanks to the devs who have posted. It's interesting to note that there has been misundestanding between CCP, CSM and the players due to our differing interpretation of common phrases.
In future when CCP uses a word like 'polish' or 'quality', please provide a clear definition of how you intepret it within the company. There is no advantage to all the interested parties being at cross purposes. It confuses the hell out of us, makes us think we are being ignored or patronised and means you get garbled feedback that cannot help you in your quest to deliver the gameplay experience that we all know you want to.
So sure, we have different nomenclature and that's always a great way to misunderstand each other. Polish for me is a team working on a feature and then iterating on it and incorporating feedback based on testing. It has nothing to do with bugs, because we call that bugfixing.
Solid effort CCP - many thanks.
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T'san Manaan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:00:00 -
[155]
CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev. Im glad to see some back and forth between the Devs and the playerbase that isn't a one way whine fest.
Keep up the communication.
And remember the only reason the debates get so heated is because everyone involved loves this game and wants to see it do great.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:10:00 -
[156]
Oveur in this thread is a huge improvement over the PR fiasco the forums have been over the past few weeks, however I have still not seen anything that indicates that things are going to change.
Maybe after it becomes possible to have a good lag free fleet fight and 0.0 sov mechanics are fixed to where they encourage game play that is fun. and the next CSM minutes indicates that the Devs are paying attention.
Maybe then I will trust you enough to hit that button to resub my accounts. For now, I no longer trust CCP at its word. I will wait for action.
Colonies and Capitals
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:10:00 -
[157]
This is easily the best devblog and discussion thread I've ever seen on here in the (almost) year since I started playing.
Originally by: Quesa To say that Apoc code is what's causing the server performance dump may be true. However, to state that Dominion code had nothing to do with it is disingenuous because it was a very abrupt change when Dominion was released.
There has to be a cause and effect relationship there, I agree. And don't forget (which many seem to do) that a week or two before Dominion was released last December, CCP did some sort of a database upgrade. I remember thinking that was a phenomenally dumb thing to do so close to the release of a new expansion. It resulted, if I remember correctly, in an unplanned extended downtime when it happened. Wherever Microsoft products are involved I would not rule them out as the potential cause of any new problems observed soon thereafter. (My pet CT: CCP knows for a fact that the MS SQL upgrade is the cause of TL and is handcuffed at this point because going back to an older version is not an option.)
StacklessIO
CCP originally intended to release StacklessIO as open source. Some of the shiny slide presentations done by CCP at various gatherings say it will be released "soon". The thing is, they've been saying that for over a year and nothing has been released yet. When will that happen? The fact that it hasn't been released yet could be telling in terms of how good (or bad) it actually is, and therefore a potential contributor to TL (The Lag).
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:12:00 -
[158]
Oveur for ****ing president, to be quite honest.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:19:00 -
[159]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
Honestly. Someone saying to me that we will is the same as saying I'd leave my kids.
Thank you so very much for this statement!
Let the whiners and haters eat DUST (he he).
EVE is the best game I ever played. - There is nothing more to say.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:23:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Verone
Oveur for ****ing president, to be quite honest.
Finally, internet trolls rebuked with internet wit.
All the drama makes me so giddy.
___
Latest video: Future Proof (720p) 2D Animator |
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:34:00 -
[161]
Quote: CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev
This has been one of the dudes over the years to always come and answer the questions.
CCP, a little hint for you - This is better money spent than whatever you gave that PR company man, you should know that by now, we get ****ed, one of the "old guys" shows up, talks for a while, we calm down, (you go back to ignoring us :smug:) and life goes on.
Seriously, fire the PR company.
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Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:47:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Grath Telkin
Quote: CCP Oveur is my new favorite Dev
This has been one of the dudes over the years to always come and answer the questions.
CCP, a little hint for you - This is better money spent than whatever you gave that PR company man, you should know that by now, we get ****ed, one of the "old guys" shows up, talks for a while, we calm down, (you go back to ignoring us :smug:) and life goes on.
Seriously, fire the PR company.
Wait, what PR company? As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)
However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.08.13 23:58:00 -
[163]
When the thread bomb went off, and the news media picked it up, CCP released a statement, the issuer of which was traced back to a PR Company.
The Statement was also terribly worded, and flew in the face of everything that had been put in print for players eyes preceding the press releases posting.
Basically, they made a bad situation worse.
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Louis deGuerre
Gallente Amicus Morte Shock an Awe
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Posted - 2010.08.14 00:15:00 -
[164]
I've seen some terrible PR handling in my time, and vacation or no vacation, but CCP has been keeping me fascinated with the utter ineptitude this last month handling the 'Fallout' (pun intended).
Now, as always, let me state that I love CCP
That said, even tough manically attractive and charismatic, Nathan has not convinced me CCP means business with regard to overhauling the game instead of adding more pointless features. But then I'm a retired and disillusioned faction war veteran. I've also spent enough time in all aspects of this game to see where the walls are hanging together with duct tape and large parts of the roof are open the elements. Your words have lost force when faced with the lack of action for so long.
Blogs and fighting the lag is all very nice, but I hope this game will get some serious makeover work before more Sims, Vampires or Farmville features are welded on.
Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenÆt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
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Raneru
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2010.08.14 00:39:00 -
[165]
/me hands Oveur an upside down bottle of water.
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2010.08.14 00:42:00 -
[166]
I just wanna say it's nice to have you guys back from vacation -----
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar The Magnificent Bastards
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Posted - 2010.08.14 00:54:00 -
[167]
This was an awesome and much needed communication with the player-base. Oveur has always been an intellectual force to be reckoned with (and witty, to boot), it's great to see him posting here in this manner.
.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.08.14 00:55:00 -
[168]
Originally by: CCP Oveur Polish for me is a team working on a feature and then iterating on it and incorporating feedback based on testing. It has nothing to do with bugs, because we call that bugfixing. The Apocrypha feature teams had no teams for polish because we were neck deep in bugfixing and I'm pretty sure any of our game designers will come here and tell you that they had no time for polish.
But again, I and everybody else, love Apocrypha. We're still not going to cram this many features into an expansion because we want more time for polish and iteration.
That's why I disagreed with the CSM that we weren't striving for Excellence. We still are, we don't believe we're there yet - in fact I think we'll never believe we'll get there because if we do, I'm sure we'll find ways to do even better.
That's how CCP was born. We didn't give up despite running out of money, despite our launch being bug- and lagfest of epic proportions. We kept on developing, making it better, more expansions. And we believe this is why we're here today. Because we stick to our game, we keep on developing it and we care about it. It's why the others died and we're still here after 7 years and still growing. I'm fine with us disagreeing whether we have achieved it or not, only way for us to show it is by delivering a better experience. Talk is cheap. But I most certainly will not agree with anyone that we don't try.
You definitely have a way with words, you know what to say (to convince me anyway) but unfortunately the key part of all of this is that talk is cheap, and we're waiting, have been waiting, and this whole rage lately is all about lack of patience for waiting. The lag doesn't even affect me very much, but everything else that is buggy and/or lacking in polish sure does. We're talking years old issues here man.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
MARS VICTOR
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Posted - 2010.08.14 01:29:00 -
[169]
Edited by: MARS VICTOR on 14/08/2010 01:30:57
Originally by: Stick Cult As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)
However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.
No, really, it was not out of context. They had loads of time to react to it, several devs played fire-control, even hilmar felt he had to add something. If it would have been out of context, they'd have said it was. They did not do that but instead were trying to calm the rage by sweet-talking about that there's still 20% of "free-time" outside of the set goals. They admited over and over again, that the focus is just as what it looks like and that other neccessary things will only be fixed, when they got the time to spare.
It'sreally worth reading the CSM Meeting Minutes, the various Dev Feedback posts, etc.
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Madner Kami
Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.08.14 01:35:00 -
[170]
Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: Stick Cult As far as I know, a couple devs said things that were taken out of context, then the CSM summit minutes, and it was all trolling/whining from there. Tbpfh, I didn't know CCP had PR. (other than advertising, that is)
However, I agree. Next time **** goes down, take Oveur off vacation for a day to do this, and everything will be ok. Then give him two extra vacation days.
No, really, it was not out of context. They had loads of time to react to it, several devs played fire-control, even hilmar felt he had to add something. If it would have been out of context, they'd have said it was. They did not do that but instead were trying to calm the rage by sweet-talking about that there's still 20% of "free-time" outside of the set goals. They admited over and over again, that the focus is just as what it looks like and that other neccessary things will only be fixed, when they got the time to spare.
That looks oddly familiar
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.08.14 01:37:00 -
[171]
Why don't you have a team dedicated to balance? It doesn't have to be a big team or even a full time team but this is your core game play and you aren't taking care of it.
Why don't you have a team dedicated to polish? I understand the 20% bug fixing but who spends that 20% on fixing cosmos, faction war or pos? When they're fixing stuff are they fixing what upsets your customers or what's at the top of their defect list?
2-3 developers on each (<2% of Apocrypha's team) working with the CSM could really help you with player relations and making Eve a better game to play.
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MARS VICTOR
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Posted - 2010.08.14 01:43:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Madner Kami
That looks oddly familiar
I know, oops, but I just got up here, no coffee yet, and that post pretty much said it as it should be said. When I saw that other post, something snapped and I just threw that in. Cause well, it sums it up.
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Madner Kami
Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.08.14 01:46:00 -
[173]
Originally by: MARS VICTOR
Originally by: Madner Kami
That looks oddly familiar
I know, oops, but I just got up here, no coffee yet, and that post pretty much said it as it should be said. When I saw that other post, something snapped and I just threw that in. Cause well, it sums it up.
It's ok, no worries, I stand by my words, no matter if I write/say them or someone else quotes me. So thanks for doing it for me
/me prepares a lawsuit in silence
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Wrayeth
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2010.08.14 03:19:00 -
[174]
This thread brought a tear to my eye. It's almost like 2004 and 2005 again with dev posts left and right and Oveur telling it like it is and refusing to mince words. Now all it needs is TomB verbally laying the smacketh down and Hammer posting about boobies, and all will be well.
To my shame, I can be as reactionary as everyone else, but it's absolutely awesome seeing the lead devs posting again to lay our fears about EVE's future to rest. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.14 03:32:00 -
[175]
Edited by: iP0D on 14/08/2010 03:33:15
Originally by: Wrayeth This thread brought a tear to my eye. It's almost like 2004 and 2005 again with dev posts left and right and Oveur telling it like it is and refusing to mince words. Now all it needs is TomB verbally laying the smacketh down and Hammer posting about boobies, and all will be well.
To my shame, I can be as reactionary as everyone else, but it's absolutely awesome seeing the lead devs posting again to lay our fears about EVE's future to rest.
It's nice, yes. Encouraging, definately. But ultimately when you look at the timelines, the actions and inactions, no chit chat like in old days will change anything. On the contrary, it can make things easily worse.
It's good to see communication, and it is good to see it is stuff firmly with feet on the ground, and NOT the beer talk which is nice to socialise but which does absolutely nothing for addressing the current challenges. Sure, I miss those days as well, but they were different days, they're a business now man, with not just a single flagship product but soon multiple ones.
So, I'm looking forward to seeing actions, results, visbility of. Instead of well, empty talk. Sofar, it looks like it can go the right way, let's see how it goes. Booze, after work, and in measure. And no whitelining.
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Trygonus
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Posted - 2010.08.14 03:42:00 -
[176]
Originally by: CCP Oveur Vuk doesn't bite so hard. I have him on facebook so I stalk him there.
If I add you to my Facebook will you respawn my super cap fleet when I lose it due to arrogance too?
That whole magical ghost cap fleet that showed up after downtime with NC ready to hop in them was utter favoritism bull**** and you know it! I'll never forgive you for that CCP.
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Caladain Barton
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 03:57:00 -
[177]
You guys should read/post on the facebook group (not spacebook). Lots of angry PR generation going on there..quite funny to read.
Oh, and more sexy in depth posts about semaphores and race conditions and the rest. Your game has more software engineers in it than any other MMO. We thrive on the jargon filled blogs :-) (PS, we'll translate for anyone who isn't a programmer)
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Cade Windstalker
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.14 04:01:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Ranger 1 This thread was excellent, however it does prove some interesting facts about the EVE community.
1: No matter what the source, whatever is officially stated will be turned around and interpreted as saying exactly the opposite by our local forum trolls.
2: No matter what accurate information is posted earlier in a thread, it will be convienently ingnored in favor of repeating the most common erroneous memes' prevelant on the forums.
3: The customer is usually wrong. As most of us in a technical field know, the customer will notice a real or percieved problem. Often they will develop an involved theory as to what is the root cause of the problem and a detailed explanation of how it needs to be addressed. Almost invariably they are wrong on all counts aside from that fact that a problem exists. The EVE community is no exception to this.
The next time I log in I'm sending you so ISK for reminding me not to feed the trolls and for summing up very clearly the problem some people seem to have in interpreting dev blogs and forum posts here.
Look people, if you're just going to insert whatever facts you want into the dev's words then why are you even posting to respond to them? If you're not going to believe what the devs are writing then there's no point to even reading their posts let alone responding.
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Agiosgeogios
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Posted - 2010.08.14 04:02:00 -
[179]
Oveur to the rescue <3
We missed you mate.
Now please clean up the mess i have faith in you
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Razzor Death
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.08.14 04:11:00 -
[180]
But have you tried restarting the router ?
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Malios45
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.08.14 04:48:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Malios45 on 14/08/2010 04:49:17 Most major problems typically aren't caused by a single issue, but multiple issues. It must be human nature to blame and become fixated on the last straw that broke the camel's back.
Fleet lag is not a new phenomenon. It seems blaming Dominion has become a desperate cry for some to quantify a problem they don't readily understand. Luckily, this is soon to be fixed (if not already fixed) with a little education...
Keep up the good work guys.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.08.14 04:57:00 -
[182]
Quote:
HowÆs this as well ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Ya a lot of people want a ôdev blogö I want RESULTS, most of us know how this works, I sure as hell do customer calls up to complain they aint got their car yet ôyep we are working on itö shuts up the annoying customer that does not understand, they aint the only person with a car, and their issue is not easy. WhatÆs ôwe are working on itö hoods open, and thatÆs about ità That might have worked a month after the issue, 9 later, no sorry. And IÆve done programming and IÆve had to debug my work, and it took forever for ôstupidö mistakesà I understand you have omfg lines of code but it never took me 9 months to just be like ôya hey guysà well it turns out just throwing shít out the door every 6 months and kinda turned into this mountain of shít that has well, it hit
I am amazed that they devote 20% of time debugging a complex pseudo-legacy C++ software. On a project of smaller magnitude, we had 30-40% of our teams working on maintenance 100% of their time. We did not use SCRUM though, but older "extreme programming" methodologies instead.
Quote:
We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started
It started with FW, the first "sov-lite" system. FW woes were and are many. I sincerely hoped you'd not evolve the FW conquerable concept in 0.0 sov structures because I figured out the same code that made FW unplayable when I did it (2009) would make 0.0 unplayable as well. In 2009 we already experienced what it is to get a system to crash with 30 (thirty) people entering in local, we experienced 10-20 minutes modules lag when jumping in or just black screening. Also, the BSOD (black screen of death) when leaving a station is affecting EvE since years, not since Apochripha. I am not suprised none of this feedback ever arrived to you, the GMs tend to do quick work over the submitted tickets.
Quote:
StacklessIO
CCP originally intended to release StacklessIO as open source. Some of the shiny slide presentations done by CCP at various gatherings say it will be released "soon".
I have something Oveur could ponder about, expecially if their issue is semaphores contention and similar:
ZeroMQ
They managed to make concurrent code without many of the traditional multithread hassles that plague larger softwares. Of course it's open source.
This is exactly what CCP Oveur could be interested in:
ZeroMQ Multithreading magic
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.08.14 05:56:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I am amazed that they devote 20% of time debugging a complex pseudo-legacy C++ software. On a project of smaller magnitude, we had 30-40% of our teams working on maintenance 100% of their time.
20% seemed really low to me. I would expect the bug backlog to be increasing rather than decreasing with those ratios but I'd love to see the internal bug report statistics.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I have something Oveur could ponder about, expecially if their issue is semaphores contention and similar:
ZeroMQ
Well, damn. That's the first technical thing I've read in months that actually makes me want to get back into coding. Have you actually used it? Do you know if it lives up to the hype?
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 05:59:00 -
[184]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Explorer To back up CCP Oveur here with the numbers:
The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Yet all this didn't fix "the lag". So maybe those bugs aren't the "big ones" that cause it.
If you read carefully then some of these fixes haven't been deployed to TQ yet so they haven't fixed lag yet. One was also only deployed yesterday so it will be interesting to see what happens this weekend. But, yes, there is more and we are actively looking for it.
I read really carefully but it appears all the fixes you mention specifically are already deployed. Of course I didn't miss the part with "and still more are in various stages of code review and testing" but I didn't expect you stop working on the problem - considering it is still present - so that came as no surprise.
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
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Lynn Deniera
Caldari The Foreign Legion Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 06:28:00 -
[185]
Some guy in alliance explained to us very slowly why it takes so long to fix problems like this. I kinda wished I'd recorded it, coz it made us all feel less angry, and more kinda understanding.
He was just saying in general terms how you have to identify stuff, and then coz theres lots of stuff coz its an MMO, that that takes ages, then you have to fix the stuff.
So yeh. Good luck.
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.08.14 06:39:00 -
[186]
Serious question to CCP: Can you name 5 bugs fixed the last 12 months ? And I don't mean fixing the defects in new stuff released in those 12 months like POSes shooting friendlies or the Primae not being able to carry certain PI items.
Five things that were a bug 12 months ago and not anymore. Going through the patch notes I can only find new content and fixes for bugs in that new content that never should have gotten through QA in the first place.
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.08.14 07:10:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Celia Therone
2-3 developers on each (<2% of Apocrypha's team) working with the CSM could really help you with player relations and making Eve a better game to play.
Such a great idea, I'd like to hear why not. Like said before, talk is cheap. Put just a few people on fixing little things. Also, what is CCP's stance on the "low hanging fruit thing? -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Tyby
KANTAI HIKAGE White Noise.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 08:25:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Darth Vapour Serious question to CCP: Can you name 5 bugs fixed the last 12 months ? And I don't mean fixing the defects in new stuff released in those 12 months like POSes shooting friendlies or the Primae not being able to carry certain PI items.
Five things that were a bug 12 months ago and not anymore. Going through the patch notes I can only find new content and fixes for bugs in that new content that never should have gotten through QA in the first place.
this!
and also: dev blogs are nice, and i understand that we are gonna get more dev blogs, but, after 9(NINE) months, looks like dev blogs are the only thing you guys can deliver about fixing lag i understand that a number of "fixes" where deployed, but the effect was almost 0, so don't get mad at me if i don't really count them in. how can a company, knowing very well they'r product it's broken, choose to focus on "new stuff" instead of fixing the product first, that's beyond my understanding... also, all this "talk" to the player base, i must admit nice damage control
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.08.14 08:27:00 -
[189]
Quote:
Well, damn. That's the first technical thing I've read in months that actually makes me want to get back into coding. Have you actually used it? Do you know if it lives up to the hype?
The company who made (open source, no patents) ZeroMQ, iMatix, are those who in an earlier iteration participated to a similar (more classic approach) system called AMQP used by financial institutions. Current partners are Intel, Novell, QNX Systems...
... not exactly your one man permanent zero dot something Sourceforge release I'd say. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:17:00 -
[190]
Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond." It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:29:00 -
[191]
Nathan,
It is encouraging to see you engaging with the players. I hope that, sleep permitting, you will continue to do so.
As a programmer, I can empathize with your position with regard to Apocrypha, but at the same time, as a player, the opinion of posters such as Malcanis is entirely reasonable.
In truth, the two positions are not incompatible; it is just that they are describing two different issues. From a development perspective, the technical debt incurred by Apocrypha is troubling, and any prudent developer would take steps to avoid making the same mistake twice. At the same time, from the perspective of the players, Apocrypha was one of the best expansions ever.
So, how can we have our cake, and eat it too?
In a perfect world, you and your team would be able to produce Apocrypha-level expansions every 6 months without incurring significant technical debt. But we all (and by that I mean everyone participating in this thread, devs and players alike) know that in the real world, with the resources you have available, that is, shall we say, a wee bit optimistic.
So smaller expansions, well-implemented and delivered, are entirely reasonable -- and it is good to hear that you are thinking along those lines.
It's been stated once or twice (grin) that 20% of dev time is allocated to bug fixing -- that is, fixing defects in the code-base. This is obviously a good idea.
However, I would like to re-iterate the position of the CSM, as expressed at the Summit, that some % of dev time be specifically allocated to polish.
Some of the benefits of doing this are:
* It produces continuous improvement in aspects of the game that are visible to players.
* Assuming dev-hours are reasonably fungible, it provides a resource cushion when the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller towards the end of an expansion's development cycle.
* Most polish items are small and self-contained improvements, which means you can push them out during point releases; a steady stream of nuggets of good news.
If you look at the CSM's prioritized lists, you'll see that the vast majority of them are polish items (and most of those are UI-related). We look forward to see how many of them get development time this fall, and remember, the CSM stands ready to iterate any and all of them with you to make them as easy to implement as possible (and hopefully get a few more done).
We may not be able to have our cake and eat it too, but we should be able to have our cupcakes and eat them too.
Finally, I would like to invite you and all the devs who have not yet discovered the joys of the Top Secret Internal CSM Forum and Day Spa to drop by on a regular basis. The back-and-forth communication that is already going on there is very useful to everyone involved, and has already had some tangible benefits.
For example, experienced forum warriors will have noticed that the post timer has been changed from 5 minutes down to 2 minutes. This was a change requested by CSM and approved by CCP some time ago, but never implemented.
Because of a conversation in the CSM Forum, we learned what happened (higher priority items pushed it down the list and then off the radar of the devs who could implement the change -- which relates back to my comments above about polish time) and why it didn't get noticed. Everyone involved got something useful from the discussion.
The unintended consequence, of course, is that the forums are now "New and Improved, with 150% more trolling!"
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:01:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond." It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
I was going to correct you, but it's a waste of time. I'll just go straight to politely requesting that you shush.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:04:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow For example, experienced forum warriors will have noticed that the post timer has been changed from 5 minutes down to 2 minutes. This was a change requested by CSM and approved by CCP some time ago, but never implemented.
Because of a conversation in the CSM Forum, we learned what happened (higher priority items pushed it down the list and then off the radar of the devs who could implement the change -- which relates back to my comments above about polish time) and why it didn't get noticed. Everyone involved got something useful from the discussion.
That's a very sad story.
Ideally such a change would require a change in the configuration in the forum software and (maybe) bouncing the web-servers. That would require 0 development time and could be done by admins. If implemented poorly this will require a code change, building a deployment artefact and deploying. Let's say a whole day for that.
If you really cannot afford to spend 1 day (or less) to deliver a requested, approved and quite anticipated change request for your customers your development process can be called a lot, but definitely not agile.
Technical debt is bad and kills software projects in the long run if left uncontrolled. But you are the only ones to blame. It's like telling your bank that you cannot afford to pay your mortgage any more because your financial planning sucks. What do you expect, a pat on the head and a nice "Oh well if THAT is the reason just continue to do as you see fit. We'll wait for your next financial plan..."?
If you have to take on a great amount of technical debt to finish a release this means you have greatly overstressed your abilities and did not realize that in time and/or kept pushing forward using "shortcuts". That was over one year ago. If technical debt is still slowing you down you not only accumulated far too much of it, you also didn't reduce it fast enough. Looks like trying to fix one mistake by making another one...
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:05:00 -
[194]
The holy trinity of game development: Game Designer, Programmer, Artist. Create such a team to go through the backlog where all the CSM issues also end up.
They can tackle the things they're capable of and create game design documents of those they can't do on their own. Those GDDs contain a estimate for required resources in manpower and time and get sorted by resource need and design category.
Then they can be packaged to fit into a scrum sprint and/or spread into normal development cycles. Once the trinity is through the backlog, it can apply for more resources to work on the bigger objects they have identified or sorted into other teams that can use them.
This way you can basically guarantee that every expansion has some points the player base has been yearning for and you don't need to completely rewrite your design plan to make those issues fit in.
Well, at least this sounds good from an outside point of view. You know more about your resources than I do. But three people would be the minimum need to get this rolling. --------
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:41:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Nathan, It is encouraging to see you engaging with the players. I hope that, sleep permitting, you will continue to do so.
This i happily quote, and im sure the man knows his programming, i struggle with setting up a mIrc client ;)
Tho after 6 years of eve i know abit about pewpew (and carebearing) and while lag is a downer in many situations, its not my top concern even as a 0.0 dweller since the beginning. If i could choose between things "fixed", id go for an removal of the remnants of the Tier system for ships and mods which still leaves many of them unused. That and balancing ships that are obviously not able to compete with others in their class, the Hel as the most prominent example.
The nanonerf and web/scram change was one of my favourite change to the game because it enhanced the gameplay so much, lag pales in comparison to me. There were two changes to ships to lighten the grip of the tier system on ships, the result was a huge number of t1 ships flown again. It would be great to have something similar again to be able to choose from more ships and more mods as the complexity of eve is its biggest appeal to me. -
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:44:00 -
[196]
Malcanis said " I was going to correct you, but it's a waste of time. I'll just go straight to politely requesting that you shush." Its not a waste of time, if I am wrong I will listen and learn. Please explain how I am wrong. I don't like going around saying things that are wrong.
How I am wrong? I thought a shard was a copy of the same game on different servers with each server being a shard. Sharded games have players split over the different servers normally being unable to interact with each other. Sometimes other shards have slightly different rules like a role-play shard or sometimes slightly different versions of the same game. But the key point is different servers with separated player base's. That's what Eve is. So Eve is a sharded games as the players are split over different shards. You cannot buy a ship on one shard and fly it on the other shard.
Every other space MMO I have played that is still alive is non-sharded. Eve is the only one that is sharded.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:02:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Ebisu Kami on 14/08/2010 11:04:09
Originally by: Pottsey Its not a waste of time, if I am wrong I will listen and learn. Please explain how I am wrong. I don't like going around saying things that are wrong.
How I am wrong? I thought a shard was a copy of the same game on different servers with each server being a shard. Sharded games have players split over the different servers normally being unable to interact with each other. Sometimes other shards have slightly different rules like a role-play shard or sometimes slightly different versions of the same game. But the key point is different servers with separated player base's. That's what Eve is. So Eve is a sharded games as the players are split over different shards. You cannot buy a ship on one shard and fly it on the other shard.
Every other space MMO I have played that is still alive is non-sharded. Eve is the only one that is sharded.
Are you like... you know... stoned or so? Yes, you know, what sharded means, guessing from what you wrote, but how on earth and between all the stars does the meaning of the adjective 'sharded' apply to EVE?
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:16:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Ban Doga That's a very sad story.
Hey, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The important thing is that we identified the issue, and we will develop procedures so that CSM can monitor things more closely in the future.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Venetian Tar
United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:34:00 -
[199]
Does this mean I can re-sub my alts now? |
Quantessa
DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:42:00 -
[200]
Great work, great communication, thanks very much for such an excellent game.
I am looking forward to playing Eve for decades.
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:49:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 14/08/2010 11:50:04
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Ban Doga That's a very sad story.
Hey, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". The important thing is that we identified the issue, and we will develop procedures so that CSM can monitor things more closely in the future.
The underlying pattern to a lot of the unresolved issues is that small(er) fixes are being delayed in favour of big(ger) changes that take more time and resources. Eventually leading to the situation we have now with hundreds of little things that just don't work well and plans of breaking new MMO ground soon and returning to fixing more things later.
That's pretty exactly the opposite of what agile development methods like Scrum are about. I wasn't aware pointing to this is considered to be as severe as stoning.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:59:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote: We don't know. It looks like an old issue that was possibly exacerbated by new Dominion or post-Dominion code or exacerbated by subtle different timing resulting from new or changed Dominion or post-Dominion code or changed Dominion game play behaviour. The DB session starvation overshadowed other issues so we can't pinpoint when the "blackscreening client" started
It started with FW, the first "sov-lite" system. FW woes were and are many. I sincerely hoped you'd not evolve the FW conquerable concept in 0.0 sov structures because I figured out the same code that made FW unplayable when I did it (2009) would make 0.0 unplayable as well. In 2009 we already experienced what it is to get a system to crash with 30 (thirty) people entering in local, we experienced 10-20 minutes modules lag when jumping in or just black screening.
The problem with this theory is that the FW lag problems were identified and traced to a service called Crime Watch. This is a service that runs in empire (low and high sec), monitors criminal behaviour and notifies CONCORD. First of all those problems were fixed and secondly then this service doesn't run in 0.0. Quote: Also, the BSOD (black screen of death) when leaving a station is affecting EvE since years, not since Apochripha.
Yes, we suspect that is true since the code changes we have made so far because of this issue have all been in old code.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:07:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
Originally by: CCP Explorer The specific issues that cropped up in Dominion, memory leaks and DB session starvation, were fixed by February this year. The memory leaks had been fixed in December 2009. The DB session starvation was tracked down in late January, confirmed in a mass-test on Singularity on 27 January and the fix was deployed to TQ on 9 February ("TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.21.127381_4"). It was not the silver bullet to end all lag but it was a big fix for a regression we could trace back to Dominion and this hotfix had a clearly measurable positive impact on fleet fight lag.
CCP Atlas wrote a dev blog about those issues on 4 Feb. In that dev blog he discussed one of the remaining issues, the "blackscreening client". We started work on that issue and deployed changes to TQ this summer to improve and mitigate it (dev blog is being planned). We haven't fixed the issue but we have improved it and are still working on it.
More fixes were deployed to TQ yesterday (12 August, "TRANQUILITY HOTFIX v.6.30.167296_10"; another dev blog is being planned to detail the results) and still more are in various stages of code review and testing (yes, you guessed it, even more dev blogs are being planned). All of these fixes involve performance enhancements to old code, not Dominion code.
Yet all this didn't fix "the lag". So maybe those bugs aren't the "big ones" that cause it.
If you read carefully then some of these fixes haven't been deployed to TQ yet so they haven't fixed lag yet. One was also only deployed yesterday so it will be interesting to see what happens this weekend. But, yes, there is more and we are actively looking for it.
I read really carefully but it appears all the fixes you mention specifically are already deployed.
Of course fixes that I mention specifically with dates and hotfix numbers have all been deployed; I'm not a psychic. Quote: Of course I didn't miss the part with "and still more are in various stages of code review and testing" but I didn't expect you stop working on the problem - considering it is still present - so that came as no surprise.
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:13:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond."
It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:14:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow If you look at the CSM's prioritized lists, you'll see that the vast majority of them are polish items (and most of those are UI-related). We look forward to see how many of them get development time this fall, and remember, the CSM stands ready to iterate any and all of them with you to make them as easy to implement as possible (and hopefully get a few more done).
We may not be able to have our cake and eat it too, but we should be able to have our cupcakes and eat them too.
Finally, I would like to invite you and all the devs who have not yet discovered the joys of the Top Secret Internal CSM Forum and Day Spa to drop by on a regular basis. The back-and-forth communication that is already going on there is very useful to everyone involved, and has already had some tangible benefits.
For example, experienced forum warriors will have noticed that the post timer has been changed from 5 minutes down to 2 minutes. This was a change requested by CSM and approved by CCP some time ago, but never implemented.
Because of a conversation in the CSM Forum, we learned what happened (higher priority items pushed it down the list and then off the radar of the devs who could implement the change -- which relates back to my comments above about polish time) and why it didn't get noticed. Everyone involved got something useful from the discussion.
The unintended consequence, of course, is that the forums are now "New and Improved, with 150% more trolling!"
Well while you have the web guys at hand, please have them look at issue 85 and update the forum rules section by changing two digits from 24 to 75.
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Bojan Z
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:24:00 -
[206]
Thanks for the dev blog. This is a huge step in the right direction.
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Lumy
Minmatar eXceed Inc. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:33:00 -
[207]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond."
It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc.
You don't have to understand. That's Pottsey, he is very special. In fact, to understand him you would need completely different degree than software engineering.
Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:35:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 12:35:48 CCP Explorer said " I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc." Yes TQ is a single shard but it's not the only shard. The Tranquility shard cannot chat, buy, sell, kill or interact with the Serenity shard. There are two district servers with two groups of players. Hence why I call Eve a sharded game. It's not a major thing is just bugs me when people call Eve a single universe with only one shard. When you can have friends on a different shard you cannot play with. You don't go around calling other games single sharded just because the shards are in different county's.
Ebisu Kami said " Are you like... you know... stoned or so? Yes, you know, what sharded means, guessing from what you wrote, but how on earth and between all the stars does the meaning of the adjective 'sharded' apply to EVE?" I see two shards with two groups of players. How does that not count as sharded? Are you using a different definition of shard so a 2nd server and 2nd group of players is not a shard?
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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iP0D
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:43:00 -
[209]
Edited by: iP0D on 14/08/2010 12:44:50
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond."
It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc.
There is nothing to understand, it's Pottsey. The only Capsuleer who has a genetic intolerance to Attribute Enhancement Implants. This on top of the case of Sharded Personality Disorder
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Hack Harrison
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.14 13:26:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Hack Harrison on 14/08/2010 13:29:29
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond." It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
Suggest you learn what sharding is - pretty sure that Kestral going down with 74 plexes happened in EVERYONES universe, thereby proving Eve is a single shard. You are confusing multi SERVER with multi SHARD...
Edit - Chinese HAVE to have a different server due to THEIR gaming laws. As far as we are concerned - Tranquility is the only server in the world as the other one hides behind the Great Firewall of China...
You still posted a dumb comment
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.14 13:54:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Hack Harrison
Originally by: Pottsey Deb Blog said "we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond."
It really bugs me reading things like that. Eve is not un-sharded. It's very much a sharded game now. Separated player base's on different servers makes it a sharded game.
In fact out of the big Space MMO's I can think off Eve is the most sharded game, perhaps even the only sharded one.
Suggest you learn what sharding is - pretty sure that Kestral going down with 74 plexes happened in EVERYONES universe, thereby proving Eve is a single shard. You are confusing multi SERVER with multi SHARD...
Edit - Chinese HAVE to have a different server due to THEIR gaming laws. As far as we are concerned - Tranquility is the only server in the world as the other one hides behind the Great Firewall of China...
Yes, and I submit that having a server in China due to Chinese law is different than sharding. CCP has often expressed its vision to have a single universe, in fact the last time we did that was at GDC China just a few weeks ago.
Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 13:54:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 13:59:36 Hack Harrison said " You are confusing multi SERVER with multi SHARD..." No I am not. A shard is a game server hosting a massively multiplayer online game. When you have two or more different servers with two or more copies of the same universe you call each server a shard. It doesn't matter what the reasons is for the 2nd shard. If you have a 2nd server with a 2nd copy of the same universe then you are a sharded game.
What you are suggesting is along the lines of saying I have to have a 2nd car by law, so the 2nd car doesn't count and I only have 1 car. That to me is a crazy way to think. Eve has two shards with two copies of the universe.
If you have to choose which shard to play on to choose which group of freinds to play with then its a sharded game. Eve is like that.
Going by your logic many games are single sharded games even though they have 2 or more shards.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.08.14 13:59:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 12:39:50 CCP Explorer said " I don't understand. TQ is a single cluster and all players on TQ can travel between any solar system, chat across the universe, buy and sell on the market anywhere, etc." Yes TQ is a single shard but it's not the only shard. The Tranquility shard cannot chat, buy, sell, kill or interact with the Serenity shard. There are two district servers with two groups of players. Hence why I call Eve a sharded game. It's not a major thing is just bugs me when people call Eve a single universe with only one shard. When you can have friends on a different shard you cannot play with. You don't go around calling other games single sharded just because the shards are in different county's. How can we call Eve a single-universe when there is more than 1 copy of the universe running?
Ebisu Kami said " Are you like... you know... stoned or so? Yes, you know, what sharded means, guessing from what you wrote, but how on earth and between all the stars does the meaning of the adjective 'sharded' apply to EVE?" Excluding the Singularity shard as its not fair to count that, I see two shards with two groups of players. How does that not count as sharded? Are you using a different definition of shard so a 2nd server and 2nd group of players is not a shard?
...
First: Singularity is not a shard of the game, it's a test server. Nobody plays there in the traditional meaning, but simply tests future developments or actual bugs or their fixes. Second: If a game is sharded, everyone can play on every shard, there is no technical restriction to the shard-choice. However you can not legally play on Serenity unless you are located in China (and technically you're not even allowed to do that, unless you are a chinese by nationality) and chinese people are not allowed to play on Tranquility, to be quiet exact not even if they're not located in China but have a valid chinese nationality. Serenity is not even run by CCP themselves, but a licensed copy, so it's legally a completely different game then what we play on Tranquility, not just a different shard. Third: Stop abusing whatever you abuse, it really hurts you.
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TyphMaster
Heiorun
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:02:00 -
[214]
Action CCP .. More Action !
It is nice to see you trying to clear the fog between players and CCP but we cannot see any visibility of solution yet.
--- Sig Under Construction |
Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:07:00 -
[215]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think someone helped you with that answer but this time I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Looking forward to seeing more of that quality...
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:11:00 -
[216]
Ebisu Kami said " If a game is sharded, everyone can play on every shard, there is no technical restriction to the shard-choice." I have never come across that version of the definition of sharded, it sounds like you are just making that up to count Eve as single sharded. I have played other MMO's that only let me choose the shard for the county you are in. Should I count them as single sharded as well?
Going by every definition of shard in various dictionarys I have seen, Eve is 100% sharded matching the description perfectly. The word shard and sharded does not take into account why a game is sharded. It only describes a game world that is sharded. It doesn't matter what the reason behind Eve being sharded is, it's still a 2nd shard. Just like it doesn't matter why you buy a 2nd home it's still a 2nd home.
I also don't see why being single shard is exceptional. It's pretty much the standard for space MMO's, with Eve being the only active space MMO with two shards.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:15:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 14:17:10 CCP Explorer said "Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers." The reason you have a 2nd shard might be different from some other games but it's still a 2nd shard. Lots of games only have a 2nd shard due to law we do not go around calling those games single sharded. No one ever called Hellgate londond single sharded or any other games. Eve has two groups of players in two copy's of the universe, hence two shards.
What you are saying it similar to saying I work live in county A but work in county B which has a law everyone working in the country has a house there. So I am not going to count the house as my 2nd house as its law I have to have a house.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Ebisu Kami
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:18:00 -
[218]
People were right. You're spechul, Pottsey.
/end
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Faolan Fortune
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Posted - 2010.08.14 14:51:00 -
[219]
Heh, I hope they dish out free aspirin at CCP, I need some after reading a few of the comments here
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Grez
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.08.14 15:13:00 -
[220]
Pottsey, you are, by definition of the word, ******ed.
Utterly, truly, ******ed. ---
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.14 15:43:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 14/08/2010 14:28:08 CCP Explorer said "Due to Chinese law then we have to have a server there but that's different from designing a game that is intended to be sharded or operating shards where there are no laws requiring separate servers." The reason you have a 2nd shard might be different from some other games but it's still a 2nd shard. Lots of games only have a 2nd shard due to law we do not go around calling those games single sharded. No one ever called Hellgate londond single sharded or any other games. Eve has two groups of players in two copy's of the universe, hence two shards.
What you are saying it similar to saying I work live in county A but work in county B which has a law everyone working in the country has a house there. So I am not going to count the house as my 2nd house as its law I have to have a house.
EDIT: Hack Harrison said " Serenity is not even run by CCP themselves, but a licensed copy, so it's legally a completely different game then what we play on Tranquility, not just a different shard." That's pretty common practise. For example a different company runs the D&D server in the UK/EU then US. The players in the EU cannot choose to play on the US shard.
Serenity might be for legal reasons but it's still a different shard by every common definition of the word shard.
EDIT2: CCP Explorer said " Yes, and I submit that having a server in China due to Chinese law is different than sharding." It's not. There are many reasons to have shards, law, server limitations, localisation changes, slightly different rules like role-play shards. But all are shards. The reasons behind it being a shard do not matter it's still a shard.
Respectfully, you are wrong.
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T'san Manaan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.14 15:45:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Pottsey Malcanis said " I was going to correct you, but it's a waste of time. I'll just go straight to politely requesting that you shush." Its not a waste of time, if I am wrong I will listen and learn. Please explain how I am wrong. I don't like going around saying things that are wrong.
How I am wrong? I thought a shard was a copy of the same game on different servers with each server being a shard. Sharded games have players split over the different servers normally being unable to interact with each other. Sometimes other shards have slightly different rules like a role-play shard or sometimes slightly different versions of the same game. But the key point is different servers with separated player base's. That's what Eve is. So Eve is a sharded games as the players are split over different shards. You cannot buy a ship on one shard and fly it on the other shard.
Every other space MMO I have played that is still alive is non-sharded. Eve is the only one that is sharded.
WOW!
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Saman Ayan
Minmatar Lazy.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 15:46:00 -
[223]
While you could say EVE is technically sharded, the two shards are not the same as they are on different versions (Serenity was just upgraded to Apocrypha, more than a year it was released on TQ) and are run by different companies, so you cannot just say that they are two separate servers running the same game. Unlike most MMOs, the communities for Serenity and TQ are completely seperate, with very few people actually playing on both (notably Chribba). I think that's why most people on TQ don't really consider the game sharded.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.08.14 15:47:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Ban Doga The underlying pattern to a lot of the unresolved issues is that small(er) fixes are being delayed in favour of big(ger) changes that take more time and resources.
...
That's pretty exactly the opposite of what agile development methods like Scrum are about. I wasn't aware pointing to this is considered to be as severe as stoning.
I fear we have misunderstood each other.
I took your posting to be critical of CCP for letting this fall through the cracks; my point was that yelling at people for making mistakes generally only ensures you don't get told about future mistakes. The CSM is more interested in making sure that procedures get put in place so that these mistakes do not happen repeatedly.
With respect to small fixes vs. large ones, one thing that several CSMs have emphasized internally, and with which I am in agreement, is that small CSM issues should not be bundled into large ones that get fixed as a single item. For example, the change to MWD/AB icons we have asked for should not be combined with other UI changes, but should be addressed as an independent item.
This is the reasoning behind the "Low Hanging Fruit" proposal I sponsored and which will be discussed at today's CSM meeting; it provides a buffet of small items that can be selected from, and is explicit that this is the expected method of implementation.
In other words, "An Item A Day Keeps The CSMs Away"
Quote: Well while you have the web guys at hand, please have them look at issue 85 and update the forum rules section by changing two digits from 24 to 75.
I have conveyed your concerns to the appropriate dev.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 17:05:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Ban Doga on 14/08/2010 17:05:25
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow With respect to small fixes vs. large ones, one thing that several CSMs have emphasized internally, and with which I am in agreement, is that small CSM issues should not be bundled into large ones that get fixed as a single item. For example, the change to MWD/AB icons we have asked for should not be combined with other UI changes, but should be addressed as an independent item.
IMO that is exactly what should happen. It's pointless to bundle a lot of small things to one big task because the first thing Agile tells you is "Split big tasks into smaller ones". So doing the exact opposite before starting the "planning game" is pretty much a waste of time.
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow In other words, "An Item A Day Keeps The CSMs Away"
I could get used to that in a matter of hours...
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.14 17:32:00 -
[226]
Nareg Maxence said "Respectfully, you are wrong." Instead of just telling me I wrong or like others calling me names, why don't you explain it? Just telling someone they are wrong does not make you right.
A bunch of people on here don't seem to understand two copies of a game universe with two servers and two player base's is two shards. That's the very definition of what a sharded game is. How can anyone say that is not two shards.
There are lots of reasons to have two or more shards. In Eve's case its due to a law. But it's still a 2nd shard. Telling me I am wrong without explaining why, calling me names is not going to change the fact there are two distinct shards that do not interact with each other.
The only way to say Eve is single sharded it to pretend the other shard isn't real. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 17:47:00 -
[227]
Pottsey, you are trolling in what has been the most productive 'comments to a dev blog thread' in months, stealing away valuable Dev replying posts to combat you're idiotic semantic arguments.
I really hope whatever pathetic hole of a corp you call home gets dec'd because of this. ----------------- Friends Forever |
bitter vetiranarian
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Posted - 2010.08.14 18:10:00 -
[228]
Edited by: bitter vetiranarian on 14/08/2010 18:10:56
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga
So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.
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Kingston Black
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Posted - 2010.08.14 18:58:00 -
[229]
Aww man the devs are back and have beaten some sense into the playerbase?
/emote takes pants off head
Ahh well reading the threadnaughts kept me chuckling while i waited for you guys and gals to come back from hols, i hope you all had some good ones and gl fixing it all
I esp hate the traffic control while jumping through gates in 0.0 one. (you can sometime replicate it with a 'ceptor if you just jump back and fore through a gate multiple times like a looney with 20 guys sitting in each of the upgraded system ratting)
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Solar Blade
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Posted - 2010.08.14 19:50:00 -
[230]
Originally by: RifterDrifter 18 Months.
man, your lagging behind.
Didn't you notice its 17 months now :P
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2010.08.14 19:52:00 -
[231]
Originally by: bitter vetiranarian
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.
We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Xiang Jiao
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Posted - 2010.08.14 20:43:00 -
[232]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.
I am completely thrilled that we have confirmation that our best and brightest are up to the task. I will be anxiously watching your progress on Eve-o and other formus.
I have one account expiring in 2 months, another in 5 months, and the last in 6 months. I intend on moving from the yearly subscription plan to month by month PLEX because I don't have complete confidence as a customer. If I decide one day that I don't want to log in and play anymore, it's no real loss. If I see massive game improvements, then I can go back to the yearly subscription. How does CCP plan on regaining the trust of customers who have already let their accounts lapse? Are there any immediate fixes we will see before the Winter expansion?
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2010.08.14 20:54:00 -
[233]
Captain's log, Day 4
We are fighting lag, this is a good fight. We will win easily.
Captain's log, Day 54
We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.
Captain's log, Day 76
Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great. We will win this fight very soon.
Captain's log, Day 121
We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!
Captain's log, Day 161
The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now. Victory must be close.
Captain's log, Day 191
The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched. We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.
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GiggMaster
Eikpyrnir
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Posted - 2010.08.14 21:12:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Ban Doga Captain's log, Day 4
We are fighting lag, this is a good fight. We will win easily.
Captain's log, Day 54
We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.
Captain's log, Day 76
Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great. We will win this fight very soon.
Captain's log, Day 121
We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!
Captain's log, Day 161
The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now. Victory must be close.
Captain's log, Day 191
The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched. We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.
This! Captain's log, Day 690
Now that we are launching Dust something and Incarna we are proud to inform we will have 25% of our dev team dedicated to fight the lag so we will win this fight shortly. We would like to use this slot to inform you we are starting to develop another game to finish the circle between EVE/Dust/Incarna. It will take 36 months to finish this new expansion. Stay Tuned. []'s GiggMaster |
Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust Mostly Cookie
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Posted - 2010.08.14 21:25:00 -
[235]
CCP Zulu needs to train proof-reading to V
Quote: Aedun Sole > flying with lyk is like flying a bus filled with 5 year old children
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Tyby
KANTAI HIKAGE White Noise.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 21:49:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Tyby on 14/08/2010 21:50:27
Originally by: Ban Doga Captain's log, Day 4
We are fighting lag, this is a good fight. We will win easily.
Captain's log, Day 54
We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.
Captain's log, Day 76
Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great. We will win this fight very soon.
Captain's log, Day 121
We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!
Captain's log, Day 161
The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now. Victory must be close.
Captain's log, Day 191
The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched. We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.
lol, and i was told "our logs show nothing"... also, waiting for captain's log, day 281...
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bitter vetiranarian
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Posted - 2010.08.14 22:19:00 -
[237]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: bitter vetiranarian
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Ban Doga So I'd like to repeat my point: all the fixes you have deployed so far have not solved the problem.
You are repeating yourself.
I think you need to go back on vacation. You're obviously a little tired still and I don't want you to over-exert yourself. God forbid dust or incarna are delayed even one day due to sleepiness since we're all chomping at the bit to play them.
We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.
Are you sure you don't need another few weeks off? I'm worried about you guys, fighting the lag monster can be tough. Want a red bull? It'll give you wings.
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Cinori Aluben
Minmatar Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2010.08.15 00:12:00 -
[238]
Three quotes of note:
Quote: It's a constant, slow battle
Slow is exactly the problem unfortunately. A bit too slow per the player response, and per previous promises.
Quote: ...as we know how powerful and unique an experience a 1000+ player fleet fight can truly be...
Finally you admit to this once being feasible and 'working as intended.'
Quote: hope you realize we will be throwing every last thing we've got at the terrible, multi-ship fleet known as lag.
Does that mean you are indeed reprioritizing your dev team allocation from the last devblog?
Btw this article should have been named "We're STILL aware of the problem." See previous devblog and comments.
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Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
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Posted - 2010.08.15 02:41:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Pottsey Nareg Maxence said "Respectfully, you are wrong." Instead of just telling me I wrong or like others calling me names, why don't you explain it? Just telling someone they are wrong does not make you right.
A bunch of people on here don't seem to understand two copies of a game universe with two servers and two player base's is two shards. That's the very definition of what a sharded game is. How can anyone say that is not two shards.
There are lots of reasons to have two or more shards. In Eve's case its due to a law. But it's still a 2nd shard. Telling me I am wrong without explaining why, calling me names is not going to change the fact there are two distinct shards that do not interact with each other.
The only way to say Eve is single sharded it to pretend the other shard isn't real.
When you log into EVE, do you have the option to choose a different server than TQ? Installing a Sisi client doesn't count, because Sisi is *not* part of the TQ universe. You cannot log onto Serenity unless you're chinese, who cannot log into TQ.
For everybody in the world aside from the Chinese, there is only one real shard. For the Chinese, there is only one shard.
It's all semantics at this point. When I log into EVE, I have no choice but to log into the one and only shard available, which makes it a single sharded universe. I don't get to choose multiple universes to join, just one. You feel that it isn't true, when it is in this regard.
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.15 04:16:00 -
[240]
Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/08/2010 04:18:15 Edited by: Rip Minner on 15/08/2010 04:17:38 O god I cant belive I'm about to do this.
But Pottsey's right. There are two shards 1 for China and 1 for everybody alse.
I would stand behind CCP's claim of 1 shard as I personly see it as 1 shard becouse if China let CCP they would have all the world on one shard in 1/2 a heart beat. That is CCP's goal and I hope one day China pulls there heads out of there ars and joins the rest of the world.
Edit: Or I should say China's Ruling Class lets there people join the world.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.08.15 05:17:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Rip Minner O god I cant belive I'm about to do this. But Pottsey's right. There are two shards 1 for China and 1 for everybody alse. ..
/facepalm What the **** is wrong with you? Stop derailing this thread you stupid morons. This here isn't about EVE being sharded or not.. man, leave us alone and discuss this stupidity in GD or OOP or whatever hole you guys came out of. Darn.
@CCP, please keep us in the loop and get your head together with the CSM. Thanks!
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Apollo Gabriel
Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.15 06:31:00 -
[242]
Thank you CCP for this Awesome thread!!!
I look forward to more information as you can share it,
Best
Apollo ************************************************** * Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. * ************************************************** |
Kitsune Jones
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Posted - 2010.08.15 06:35:00 -
[243]
So I'm just gonna throw this out here, since the encounter rate for wild devs is unusually high in this thread: Why not implement client UI setting overrides for systems that detect high activity? For years people've been telling each other to turn off graphics effects and stuff before jumping into a busy system for a fight, but that only works if the person knows before they jump that they're moving into an overloaded system. So just set it up so that the server pings a warning to the client that they're jumping into a seething abyss and have the client automatically switch to a stripped-down anti-lag mode to at least let the pilot load the grid and be able to act. Even if it's to jump back out or log off, that's better than crashing the client and stranding their ship without control in the destination system.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2010.08.15 08:56:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/08/2010 08:56:33 Phantom Slave said "When you log into EVE, do you have the option to choose a different server than TQ? " No which is why it's a 2nd shard. When I play the D&D shard I cannot choose the US Shard nor use the same client. When I could play the Western Hellgate shard I cannot choose the other shards as they are outside my zone. One of the main reasons to have shards are for localisation and forcing the people into the local shard.
The fact you cannot choose another shard makes it more of a shard. Many definitions of shard have it so the two shards are separated.
To quote CCP's own website. "multiple servers (those are the shards) where players move out to adventures and interaction. Due to the nature of this, a player on one shard cannot interact with players from another shard."
Topic ended Eve is two shards. Let's move on and forget it. Like I said before it's not a major thing just something that bugs me.
Let's get back to lack of content, lag, bugs and everything else. Please no more talk about shards.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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wizard87
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Posted - 2010.08.15 10:22:00 -
[245]
Came hoping for a slight un-nerf of the speed balancing changes. Left disappointed.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.08.15 11:22:00 -
[246]
Posting to confirm CCP fanboys still exist and I am apparently a troll for not being one. -------------------------------------------------------------- The 5 minute forum time delay was a crime against humanity that CCP took forever to address. |
Omal Oma
Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.08.15 12:10:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Omal Oma on 15/08/2010 12:12:54
@CSM People.
I understand that you guys are trying to create a list of the most popular bugs/lack in polish, aspects of EVE which the majority of players would like to see fixed. There's a flaw in this logic, many of the problems in EVE affect a small number of players and these small number of players are many times too busy leading to take the time out to "complain". Take POS setup/takedown taking upwards of eight hours for example or the SBU bug (game breaking). While theses things aren't the most popular, I feel it's due to people in high command only being able to do these things, thus having a lower percentage of people to push support behind change.
In my opinion, Corp/Alliance security and POS mechanics hould be at the top of the list, but getting the majority of the playerbase behind something like this is impossible, but anyone who has had to setup a POS, struggle with the green box, wait for a module to anchor, then wait for it to online for 4-8 hours straight will back me on this that it's by far the most broken mechanic in the game. Lets not get into trying to set permissions to help corp security and theft.
In my humble opinion, the mechanics behind corporation/alliance security needs a severe overhaul along with POS/outpost security and management.
@ CCP Explorer
I've noticed some things with fleet lag and I'm not sure where I should post this so I'll just mention it here.
I many times dual box when in fleet fights. I notice that this character gets through the gate before my other account and loads grid before my other account.
On many occasions, this character will load grid immediately where my other character will never load grid at all and take much longer to get through the gate. I've attempted testing on this with a clean cache and the same phenomena exists where my character who's name starts with an "O" gets through the gate before the character who's name starts with a "Z". Never fails when it's a fleet of 50 + jumping through.
Lastly...
Wanna get a bunch of people on SISI for testing?
Make the bet: For every player over 500, CCP will reward all pilots 1k Skill points for players who participate :)
Anyway, thanks for reading and good luck with your blogs.
________________________________________________ <--- My in-game me. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.08.15 14:46:00 -
[248]
Originally by: CCP Oveur ... Yes, that was totally the reason. You saw right through me. It's why we now spend 20% of the time of the largest MMO development team in the world, on a 7 year game, just fixing bugs.
Well, we actually have been doing that for a very long time.
...
Only 20% on remedial work due to terrible planning, testing and execution associated with the Dominion and the fumble that was Tyrannis?
Please show your customers results before talking about how much effort CCP is putting into repairing its ****-ups. Results matter more than empty words especially at eight and a half months after the Dominion release.
After having been bent in two and given the shaft, your customers would like CCP to pull its pants up and bring the excellence of the Apocrypha release(s) to current and future gameplay -- of all types.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Shortly after Dominion, as we've all noticed, things began reverting. This has been a problem, as we know how powerful and unique an experience a 1000+ player fleet fight can truly be. While this is all relative, as we're dealing with an exceptional gaming situation where the universe is large and un-sharded and allows for freedom of movement in the gamespace that is rarely seen elsewhere, CCP's goal is to return you to those epic space battles and then well beyond.
This is the first time that CCP has openly and said in a straight-forward manner that Dominion was a step backwards in game performance. I am shocked that after all of the mis-direction and skirting around the 10-ton gorilla in the room, CCP took this step. Better late than never.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.08.15 15:51:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Omal Oma @CSM People.
I understand that you guys are trying to create a list of the most popular bugs/lack in polish, aspects of EVE which the majority of players would like to see fixed. There's a flaw in this logic, many of the problems in EVE affect a small number of players and these small number of players are many times too busy leading to take the time out to "complain". Take POS setup/takedown taking upwards of eight hours for example or the SBU bug (game breaking). While theses things aren't the most popular, I feel it's due to people in high command only being able to do these things, thus having a lower percentage of people to push support behind change.
With all due respect, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. There is an established procedure for raising issues for the CSM to consider, and if you don't use it, it's unreasonable to expect the CSM to do all the heavy lifting. Despite what some people would have you believe, we're not a bunch of know-it-alls with our own agendas; we depend on motivated players to craft proposals that we can submit to CCP. We are your representatives, after all.
As things stand, in the current environment, getting big changes made to the game is going to be difficult. So proposals that involve minimal changes to the game mechanics but make big differences in gameplay are your best shot. I for one would love to see the Dead Horse POS proposal implemented, but TBH it isn't going to happen anytime soon. But a set of small tweaks to the existing POS mechanics could make life a lot easier.
With respect to issues like the SBU bug, I assume it's been bugreported and acknowledged as a bug by CCP? If CCP is claiming they can't reproduce it, or it is working as designed, then raise a proposal and give us as much info as you can, and maybe we can twist some arms.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician Spending Hours blogging the Minutes
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Cheeba Don
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.15 18:19:00 -
[250]
woohooooo!
Oveur for executive producer \o/
Thanks for taking the time to talk to us Oveur.
I now love CCP again <3
---------
oOk! |
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Sha Kharn
Minmatar Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.15 19:39:00 -
[251]
Its good to talk
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.08.15 19:49:00 -
[252]
A quick look at the CSM prioritized list of issues doesn't show this old, old, old problem: Notifications to the client of people in the "contacts watch list" (not the fleet combat watchlist) logging on and logging off do not work reliably. The same underlying bug, wherein messages from the server are not consistently and reliably relayed to the client and processed, could have some bearing on the overall lag problem.
Either the server is not preparing the message and sending it out, or the client is not processing the character logon/logoff information correctly. This should be an EASY bug to track down and fix, and just might provide some insight into how and why such "missed signals" can happen.
When you ignore the little bugs year after year, it's really not surprising that eventually you get a HUGE monster bug that baffles everyone.
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Genya Arikaido
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Posted - 2010.08.15 20:36:00 -
[253]
It is good to see Oveur back... M8, you need to be CCP's face to the players. It seems you're the only one that can take it and dish it back out, while keeping the freedom to say what needs saying and not hide behind numbers and plausible deniability.
We've needed the 2003/4 Oveur back. Oveur for Community Manager 2010!! Vote now!
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad.
Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.15 20:42:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Swidgen
Either the server is not preparing the message and sending it out, or the client is not processing the character logon/logoff information correctly. This should be an EASY bug to track down and fix, and just might provide some insight into how and why such "missed signals" can happen.
When you ignore the little bugs year after year, it's really not surprising that eventually you get a HUGE monster bug that baffles everyone.
This actually got me thinking. What if some part of the code doesn't reallocate and free up the memory that is being used once it's no longer needed. Could lead to a memory leak which causes the node to run out of memory and eventually crash.
I'm sure CCP has checked for this right? right??
I'm sure that most people at some time have ran a program, or programs, that have used up pretty much all the RAM in their computer. When that happens the system becomes very slow and unresponsive. That would appear as lag to the user as the client is waiting on the server to process the info and send it, which could take a few seconds to minutes for the server to process it.
500 people sending a request, the server is out of memory and is trying to use a swap file to shuffle memory around. HD access takes much much longer than RAM access so the server is stuck swapping memory and can not process commands.
NAH, it can't be this simple to fix
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TornSoul
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.15 20:52:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Genya Arikaido It is good to see Oveur back... M8, you need to be CCP's face to the players. It seems you're the only one that can take it and dish it back out, while keeping the freedom to say what needs saying and not hide behind numbers and plausible deniability.
We've needed the 2003/4 Oveur back.
My sentiment exactly
BIG Lottery |
Bhattran
|
Posted - 2010.08.15 23:37:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Omal Oma Edited by: Omal Oma on 15/08/2010 12:12:54
@CSM People.
I understand that you guys are trying to create a list of the most popular bugs/lack in polish, aspects of EVE which the majority of players would like to see fixed. There's a flaw in this logic, many of the problems in EVE affect a small number of players and these small number of players are many times too busy leading to take the time out to "complain". Take POS setup/takedown taking upwards of eight hours for example or the SBU bug (game breaking). While theses things aren't the most popular, I feel it's due to people in high command only being able to do these things, thus having a lower percentage of people to push support behind change.
In my opinion, Corp/Alliance security and POS mechanics hould be at the top of the list, but getting the majority of the playerbase behind something like this is impossible, but anyone who has had to setup a POS, struggle with the green box, wait for a module to anchor, then wait for it to online for 4-8 hours straight will back me on this that it's by far the most broken mechanic in the game. Lets not get into trying to set permissions to help corp security and theft.
In my humble opinion, the mechanics behind corporation/alliance security needs a severe overhaul along with POS/outpost security and management.
@ CCP Explorer
I've noticed some things with fleet lag and I'm not sure where I should post this so I'll just mention it here.
I many times dual box when in fleet fights. I notice that this character gets through the gate before my other account and loads grid before my other account.
On many occasions, this character will load grid immediately where my other character will never load grid at all and take much longer to get through the gate. I've attempted testing on this with a clean cache and the same phenomena exists where my character who's name starts with an "O" gets through the gate before the character who's name starts with a "Z". Never fails when it's a fleet of 50 + jumping through.
Lastly...
Wanna get a bunch of people on SISI for testing?
Make the bet: For every player over 500, CCP will reward all pilots 1k Skill points for players who participate :)
Anyway, thanks for reading and good luck with your blogs.
Corporation Security/overhaul of roles etc has been brought up by the CSM and to CCP, it like all the other things Players want wait at the behest of CCP to decide to take it on or not, not being what we seem to get. We have had two years of CSM and things brought to CCP, they decide what/when/if they want/can/will do them.
-------------------------------------------------------------- The 5 minute forum time delay was a crime against humanity that CCP took forever to address. |
Stick Cult
Unspoken Autonomy.
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 06:28:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Cinori Aluben
Quote: It's a constant, slow battle
Slow is exactly the problem unfortunately. A bit too slow per the player response, and per previous promises.
Ok, how about you go fix lag, then.
They are working on it, if you believe them that is, and I do believe that they have people working on it. I'm sure they have enough people working on it while still maintaining a business, because they all love the game as much as we do. No, really.
If they already have teams working on it, you can't really ask for more (realistically). As I've said before, fixing lag is not simply "loltypo lemme just fix that..." or "oops forgot to press this button", it is a very complex problem with many causes.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Hienz Doofenshmirtz
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Posted - 2010.08.16 09:16:00 -
[258]
I agree with stick the lag we see could be the result of many many different code sections interacting with each other. both old and new code interacting, and resulting in a slow down of information or an over taxing of user hardware. with the massive amount of code written by so many different people, finding one piece of code that fixes everything is not gonna happen.
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Flibertygibbet
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Posted - 2010.08.16 10:01:00 -
[259]
The lag is caused by lack of appeasement to our god Balor. A virgin must be sacrificed!
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SkinSin
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Posted - 2010.08.16 10:13:00 -
[260]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We're back and enthusiastic to fight the lag monster.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, although lag is the most important issue that currently needs fixing, you also need to take a look at the mammoth pile of of broken and unfinished content, which is making eve an embarrassing product to talk about to other people.
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Darth Vapour
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Posted - 2010.08.16 10:48:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Stick Cult
Ok, how about you go fix lag, then.
Sure, as of now there is a freeze on releasing new content until such time as everyone (CSM, devs, players) are in general agreement enough progress has been made in fixing bugs and the backlog.
While this does not fix lag it will at least prevent it from new broken content making things even worse, an improvement on the current situation where new, poorly tested features are coming in much faster then bugs are fixed. |
zoltar pdp
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 10:58:00 -
[262]
Edited by: zoltar pdp on 16/08/2010 10:59:42 The damage control attempt in this thread is epic, but too late for me (and others). Maybe next time you start listening when your customers start complaining, not 6 months later.
Good luck fighting the lag monster.
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Soleil Fournier
UNFAITHFUL SHADOWS Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2010.08.16 11:27:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 16/08/2010 11:29:46 CCP is committed to excellence in it's bank account. I think that's where the issues are coming from. It's so much better sell Incarna or Dust than it is to say "Hey, we fixed all this sh*t, come play"
As far as excellence goes....Dominion was a lackluster expansion. The planets and fleet finder were awesome, the supercap changes were nice (although it took the whole of eve revolting to save them) but the sov sytem, a major central feature, failed in it's goals. Alliance sprawl wasn't reduced and it isn't easier for players to enter into 00 (mostly due to treaties being scratched). While I'm so happy to not sit for hours shooting pos's, the eve territory map hasn't changed hardly at all because the mechanics of taking space aren't really great, so 00 is stagnant. That's not excellence to me...(and I didn't even mention lag ;))
On the other hand, Apocrypha delivered, and delivered big. Tons of features, it went smoothly, and it all just seemed to work. Behind the scenes it sounds like it was havoc, but apocrypha was excellence to me because the experience was great and the fatures were fun and added depth to the game in very cool way.
Dollars and Sense and allocated development time and all that other dev mumbo-jumbo isn't what makes something excellent, the player's experiences are what determines excellence...
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Harris Dorn
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Posted - 2010.08.16 12:25:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Ban Doga Captain's log, Day 4
We are fighting lag, this is a good fight. We will win easily.
Captain's log, Day 54
We are still fighting, our motivation is strong, victory is as close as never before.
Captain's log, Day 76
Lag has not been defeated yet but our motivation is growing stronger every day, our cause is as just as our efforts are great. We will win this fight very soon.
Captain's log, Day 121
We are still at war, we will not surrender and we will win this fight!
Captain's log, Day 161
The battle continues, our motivation is still strong, fighting lag is priority 1 now. Victory must be close.
Captain's log, Day 191
The fight against lag is continuing. Our people are enthusiastic about the fight, lag is still priority 1, our efforts are unmatched. We are certain we will be victorious very soon now.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.08.16 12:44:00 -
[265]
Bleh its fustrating not being able to help out with mass testings on sisi. None the less...
Analogy ridden statement wishes for good luck on discoving the causes for lag, as I find that the most important step in combating lag as it shoots up your game performance. It does absolutly no shoot an anti lag missile without a lock as one would say, unless you take a w.a.g. FOF anti lag missile and hope for the best and not hit yourself with it. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 24FEB10
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Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.08.16 13:38:00 -
[266]
and thanks to the professional votes EVE Online Tyrannis has won Best European Online Game Award
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Catari Taga
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
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Posted - 2010.08.16 14:23:00 -
[267]
Good to see that quality of communication is much improving in response to player unhappiness, that's a much appreciated first step. Let's hope the game quality improvements will follow suit.
I'd very much like to echo the sentiments put forth by Malcanis and others about gameplay quality > technical quality. As a player I do not care if a perfectly coded feature is annoying to use, it is in fact broken to me. On the other hand if bad code nevertheless produces an enjoyable gameplay experience it is something I am willing to subscribe to this game for. Please do not forget this. --
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bitter vetiranarian
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Posted - 2010.08.16 14:49:00 -
[268]
I had a few friends over at my place Saturday evening and one of my friends who played eve back in '07 and quit to play other games brought up the kestrel plex thing and we all got talking about eve. It was great since everyone there minus my one friend and I hadn't heard of eve, and as we talked about the basic idea surrounding the game every single person there who hadn't heard of eve wanted to sign up to try it.
Then I said "Ok, but just read a few threads on their official forums first. Let me know what you decide later."
So they've all got back to me now and every single one of them said the same thing: "Awesome sounding game with lots of issues and ****ty company running it."
Number of friends brought to eve : 0.
Yes CCP, I let your forums do the convincing for me. Seems you need MOAR damage control.
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Intigo
Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.08.16 15:19:00 -
[269]
Hahaha. In a completely unrelated and not-so-bitter-vet reply:
Looking up Oveur on Facebook made me remember just how inherently awesome he is. Thanks for the laugh, my gold-clad angel. ___________________
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
|
Posted - 2010.08.16 15:24:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Intigo Hahaha. In a completely unrelated and not-so-bitter-vet reply:
Looking up Oveur on Facebook made me remember just how inherently awesome he is. Thanks for the laugh, my gold-clad angel.
That picture alone should scare most forum trolls to submission.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar Ship spinners inc
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Posted - 2010.08.16 22:26:00 -
[271]
Oveur is a master counter-troll, good thread but still it seems like things are moving so slowly in eve, things that have been broken ages still dont get fixed for years at a time, and it still feels a bit like empty promises are being made, I thought fixing the sov (sbu) or fw bugs would be a bit higher on the list of priorities seeing as they effect so many people, or even simple changed that people have been asking for for a long time, like the old cyno effect back or rockets fixed.
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Cade Windstalker
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.08.17 05:47:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Bhattran
Corporation Security/overhaul of roles etc has been brought up by the CSM and to CCP, it like all the other things Players want wait at the behest of CCP to decide to take it on or not, not being what we seem to get. We have had two years of CSM and things brought to CCP, they decide what/when/if they want/can/will do them.
Um, yes. Because they're the Game Designers. Eve is, at the end of the day, their baby, not yours, mine, or any other player's and they DO know it best. They've been working on the game for ten plus years. The oldest of us has been playing for, at best, seven and change? Eight if you count the Beta? Everyone just seems to have developed this sense of entitlement and "we know best" but not even any one person at CCP gets to "know best". No, not even the CEO, because if enough people tell him "that's a bad idea" then he's probably going to listen (and if he doesn't then he's probably going to have to fire a lot of people).
Development is a collaborative process and that fact that CCP even gives us, the players, a seat at the table is WAY more than they have to do. We just seem to think this means it's CCP with one vote and us with one vote. What it IS is us with one vote and each of the stakeholders within CCP with one vote. Infact if you read the CSM minutes and look at these threads then we're actually getting more weight than probably any of the teams at CCP get.
Oh and FFS people, CCP are not out to pad their wallets. If they were they'd have sold out ages ago and we'd be talking to Blizzard. Seriously people, you don't get into Game Design for the money, you get into publishing games for the money.
The only "right" we have is the right to pay to play their game as long as we haven't broken any rules (which are pretty lax by MMO standards) and if you are really THAT fed up with things then simply stop playing. It seems like a common thread with these "I'm leaving" posts is an unwillingness to take CCP at their word (even their VERY well explained word) so if you're not going to do that then there's nothing they can say that's going to help. Stuff doesn't get done over night (and it certainly doesn't get done on vacation) so what are you expecting exactly?
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Tyby
KANTAI HIKAGE White Noise.
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Posted - 2010.08.17 06:09:00 -
[273]
hmm last night in 0-w 500+ in local, 0 lag. it's true we where just shooting structures,and allot of those 500 where docked, but still, 0(zero) lag was a very nice surprise so, it looks like you guys are on the right track, keep it this way pls, me happy
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Nvee
|
Posted - 2010.08.17 11:47:00 -
[274]
Is the chinese server on the same patch cycle? IE, is Lag exactly the same across both servers?
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Omal Oma
Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2010.08.17 15:46:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Omal Oma on 17/08/2010 15:54:51 Edited by: Omal Oma on 17/08/2010 15:47:21
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Omal Oma @CSM People.
I understand that you guys are trying to create a list of the most popular bugs/lack in polish, aspects of EVE which the majority of players would like to see fixed. There's a flaw in this logic, many of the problems in EVE affect a small number of players and these small number of players are many times too busy leading to take the time out to "complain". Take POS setup/takedown taking upwards of eight hours for example or the SBU bug (game breaking). While theses things aren't the most popular, I feel it's due to people in high command only being able to do these things, thus having a lower percentage of people to push support behind change.
With all due respect, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. There is an established procedure for raising issues for the CSM to consider, and if you don't use it, it's unreasonable to expect the CSM to do all the heavy lifting. Despite what some people would have you believe, we're not a bunch of know-it-alls with our own agendas; we depend on motivated players to craft proposals that we can submit to CCP. We are your representatives, after all.
As things stand, in the current environment, getting big changes made to the game is going to be difficult. So proposals that involve minimal changes to the game mechanics but make big differences in gameplay are your best shot. I for one would love to see the Dead Horse POS proposal implemented, but TBH it isn't going to happen anytime soon. But a set of small tweaks to the existing POS mechanics could make life a lot easier.
With respect to issues like the SBU bug, I assume it's been bugreported and acknowledged as a bug by CCP? If CCP is claiming they can't reproduce it, or it is working as designed, then raise a proposal and give us as much info as you can, and maybe we can twist some arms.
There's an example I'm going to give...
"Notify You cannot change your ship harmonic while your ship is inside of a force field or the resulting forces would tear it apart (your ship that is)."
If a corp is on the ball and can change the harmonic of a password to a POS, why is the POS simply ejecting the ship... Why isn't it blowing it up?
if standings = positive : eject else if standings = neutral and nbsi : eject else if standings = neutral and nrds : blow up else if standings = negative : blow up
In my personal opinion, the game mechanics are catering to one side of the spectrum. For alliances as mine, we're trying to grow but the mechanics of the game cater too far against our ability to grow. The mechanics of the game cater to the super coalitions and blob warfare. They cater to more numbers in a system, to bring more to win rather than the people who do play smart and with honor. Wile my alliance is playing this game at a disadvantage by not exploring the "spy game", I think that it shouldn't hold such a weight against us. I also feel that these types of mechanics, while apart of the game, should have consequences if the party under siege is able to be on it's toes.
Things like this shouldn't take too much time to implement. An overhaul of corp permissions and security is a flaw and would take quite a bit of work to rectify. On the other hand, instituting changes who help tilt the massive disadvantage smaller alliances have wouldn't.
Thanks again for reading, Omal. ________________________________________________ <--- My in-game me. |
Apollo Gabriel
Domini Lex Talionis Etherium Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.17 17:15:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Flibertygibbet The lag is caused by lack of appeasement to our god Balor. A virgin must be sacrificed!
are you volunteering?
Iceland does have volcanoes we can toss you into. =============================== || Don't let the Trolls keep you from your goals. || =============================== |
Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.08.17 17:32:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Nvee Is the chinese server on the same patch cycle? IE, is Lag exactly the same across both servers?
If I remember correctly, they're on Apocrypha atm.
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Janya Rykayn
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Posted - 2010.08.17 19:52:00 -
[278]
I'd just like to point out that the people who are shouting about this are the ones who are having thousand-ship fleet battles.
Fix the lag, the fleet sizes will double and then you will have people shouting about lag in 2000-ship fleet battles.
I do understand what they're saying. But what I do about the aspects of the game that aren't to my liking is I change my behavior.
What these people are screaming about isn't fixable in the long term. Their own behavior is what is causing the problem, and if it's fixed the problem will only expand to fill the available space.
If it were ME-- and I'm not trying to say that I know better than the developers who have certainly discussed this option-- I would emplace a global ship limit. This limit might be adaptive based on system load.
Then whenever people start howling about lag, decrease the ship limit until the howling stops.
This is obviously not an ideal solution by any means but the level of rage about this issue is unarguably detrimental to the game. If new players get the idea that "eve is a laggy piece of crap," they may not want to try or get heavily involved in the game.
The angry people are a very small and very vocal part of the playerbase. Wouldn't it be terrible if a draconian solution were applied that only affected the people who are angry about the problem and who are causing the problem?
What they're doing is no different from people playing an FPS game, then having a 200-person clusterf*ck in one room, then complaining that the graphics are laggy.
I really hate fanboyism but get real, guys. Eve's server architecture is second to none. Nothing out there even comes close.
Really and truly, how many people out of a 300,000 player playerbase, are really enraged about performance during huge fleet fights? The squeaky wheel indeed. This is a system that works superlatively well under any reasonable load.
The closet is crowded and hot? Really? Maybe you should quit trying to cram thousands of people in there.
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Matzumisi
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Posted - 2010.08.18 01:19:00 -
[279]
Unfortunately lag monster affects not only those "in the closet" but also people a few systems away if they are unlucky enough to be on the same node with the fight. People do what is necessary to win and as long as "bringing a bigger blob" means victory, the battles will grow in scale. People cram into the closet because it is the way to get cake.
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Omal Oma
Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.08.18 01:21:00 -
[280]
Edited by: Omal Oma on 18/08/2010 01:21:49
Originally by: Janya Rykayn I'd just like to point out that the people who are shouting about this are the ones who are having thousand-ship fleet battles.
I didn't read past this part...
The following aren't tears... These are observations and they don't reflect my alliance or corporation's views. It's just how I see things. I'm fine with current game mechanics and my alliance loves working against the odds of my following observations...
Please feel free to dispute what I say.
Two weeks ago we had 600 in system. To date, that's the largest encounter I've seen in Pure Blind region.
The game was unplayable. The system wouldn't load and both sides complained. Our side fielded far more pilots while the opposing side fielded capitals and super capitals. We could get numbers, they could get really big ships.
Now... Since that encounter, I've been in multiple fleets. Sizes range from the small gang... 20-40... through the mid sized gangs, 51-200...
Today, we were in a 40 man fleet. We were going to setup to engage a 40 man hostile fleet.
It was taking up to 3 minutes to jump through a gate. When we did get through, half the fleet would desync or safety warp. When the grid would load... or not in some occasions... we'd find that half the people who were in local with us, were not showing. 20 people would be on the gate aligning and in fleet, but only 8 people in local.
We finally made our way to a station system. We logged out in order to wait on the possibility that the server would correct itself. We had the people of the fleet create petitions.
We were told to clear our cache and that there was a fleet encounter happening in the area that the devs couldn't interfere with.... we were the fleet...
80 people...
This isn't the first time a story like this can be told. It's often that you can't get through gates.
We'll take upwards of an hour to go 10 jumps to respond to a small gang harassing our members and they'll be gone by the time we get there due to traffic control.
The "lag" has nothing to do with "blobbing".
The game in it's current state is just plain broken.
I'm a new player to EVE when considering all the "Bittervets" who have already quit. Many of the things I hear from the vets I'm beginning to experience.
My view on what is killing alliances right now is:
1. Lag... Not the blob lag. The server response lag and desync lag that happens on a daily basis with small gangs. It's frustrating to lose fleets or members one at a time as your ships cannot jump through a gate. It's more frustrating to not be able to respond to friendly requests for help when you're stopped by traffic control. This demoralizes FC's.. You can hear it in their voice. It kills fleets... people will desync and just not bother to come back.
FC's who are decent don't want to lead with this any longer.
2. Poor security mechanics in the game where ships get bumped out of POS's, items stolen... the list goes on. A lot of people will say "so don't give people access"... well, it's kinda hard to be 1 person to run an entire alliance. You need to do this to an extent. There's zero logging of assets being moved/removed/added etc. We're supposed to be in the future man... POS's take 5-8 hours to setup?
Leaders don't have time to participate in alliance fleets and activities.
________________________________________________ <--- My in-game me. |
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.08.18 12:17:00 -
[281]
yeah we have heard it all before many times.. fix it already.
There always seem to be more lagg not less of it..
Do not click this ad. |
Rick LionHeart
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Posted - 2010.08.18 13:58:00 -
[282]
I would like to say that I really enjoyed playing eve, I've played it since 2006. But the last year has made this game very unplayable for me.
I've been an FC and a grunt in many a battle and the lag has been well lets say unplayable. Jumping through gates has become worse and now you have massive Mexician Standoffs because people know that if they jump through the gate the other side will have a turkey shoot.
I've stopped playing eve, I've just found it no longer fun because of the sov machanics, lag and blackscreens of death etc. I will pay for my accounts with isk until it runs out. But until I see a plausible fix by CCP and I really hope they do fix it cause I love eve because it was and should be player driven, I will not log on except for skill changes.
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Rabid Gerbil
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Posted - 2010.08.24 15:05:00 -
[283]
Originally by: CCP Oveur
Originally by: Bajsek Then it must be a very strange coincidence that this blog followed right after people started to ***** about EvE on internetz. And we thought those two things are somehow connected... silly me.
So.. 18 months?
The summer expansion is planned in January and will follow the same pattern. Improvements, fixes, content and new features with 20% spent on fixing stuff.
How about you guys actually listen, almost every time you add something you screw something else up, how about you forego any new content and spent 100% of the effort in fixing the crap you screwed up in earlier expansions. So many things are just not working right or are incomplete.
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Defped
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Posted - 2010.08.24 20:53:00 -
[284]
Edited by: Defped on 24/08/2010 20:56:15
Originally by: Doof Hardcastle so it took you 8 months and another large expansion and dozens of threadnaughts to realize that holy **** we might have actually made stuff worse? Oh wait, no it was just the public relations fiasco because people outside of eve finally heard about how **** you are. That was what elicited response in under a week.
WOW FINALLY ANOTHER ONE HAS AWAKEN FROM THE MATRIX OF EVE-ONLINE SLAVERY !! SO FIX LAG IS CCP'S GOAL ?? NO WAY THEIR SWISS BANK ACCOUNT FORBIDS !! THE EXPANSIONS IS TO CAST THE WIDEST NET OUT THERE TO LURE MAXIMUM GULLIBLE INNOCENT PLAYERS IN, AND THE LAG IS THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE, THE BLOG IS AS YOU POINTED OUT NEVER MORE ACCURATELY IS GOD-DAMNED PUBLIC RELATIONS FIASCO. ALL IN ALL REMEMBER THIS EQUATION N BURN IT INTO YOUR SOUL >>>>>>
MORE LAG = MORE CASUALTIES = MORE GTCS = $$$$$ . LAG IS CCP'S GOLD
FIX LAG WILL NEVER BE ITS GOAL. NEVER HAS BEEN, I REPEAT, NEVER W I L L I T B E. EVEN IF A BRILLIANT BUT POOR DEV COMES UP WITH A GLIMMER HOPE, HIS SOLUTION WILL SURRENDER TO PRE-PROGRAMMED BANDWIDTH SQUEEZE / BOTTLENECK AT THE MOST CRUCIAL TIMES TO MAKE SURE THE MOST DRAMATIC UPSET ENSUES...
HOW ABOUT MORE STUNNING EXPANSIONS ? OOH YOU CAN BET YOUR COLLECTIVE CLONES THEY WILL BE ROLLING OUT ON TIME REGULARLY LIKE A WHISTLE TO MAKE SURE THAT Y O U N E V E R FRAKKING W A K E U P.
NEED WE SAY MORE CCP ?, REMEMBER, YOUR COUNTRY WENT BANKRUPT ONCE, IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN, SO COULD ANYONE...
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Nathan Jameson
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Posted - 2010.08.25 13:13:00 -
[285]
I for one am very glad to see CCP taking the time to communicate with us about what they're doing. It's nice to see them taking the time to keep the player base informed that yes, they are actually working on it.
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Zardock
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.25 15:56:00 -
[286]
Well I've been playing this since 2003, and there's a few things I can say with a fair amount of certainty: -Lag is getting worse over time, not better. -Content and fixes coming with these so called "Expansions" are rather more comparable to "Booster Pack" or maybe even "Content Patch" as far as the actual additions go. -Fleet fights, blob warfare, getting rid of downtimes are issues CCP stipulated they wanted to do away with, but with content patches have actually cemented them deeper into the game mechanics.
CCP, here's a little history lesson: It begins in 2001, this little company barely known publishes an MMO. The name of the company is Funcom, and the MMO is Anarchy Online. For a while there things were touch and go, subscription base went up and down and the Funcom crew rushed to fix major release issues and put out some new content to keep things interesting for the playerbase. This was 2001 for Anarchy Online, and 2003 for EVE. As AO progressed Funcom eventually sat on their roses, cash and playerbase by devoting most of their resources to another game.
Sound familiar?
Yes. It should! CCP did in fact pull away a lot of resources from EVE to make other games or EVE expansions that we've been waiting for since the EVE stone age, literally.
So who cares?
Well, this is where this story about Funcom really becomes interesting. You see, their income came mostly from their established MMO, they had a solid fanbase, many subs coming in, things were great for Funcom. But, when they let their main bread & butter game sit for a while their players started leaving, causing Funcom to cut in the expenses relating to this cash cow game, such as development. Players left as old issues remained and nothing new was coming out, while a pletora of new promising MMOs were coming. So began the vicious cycle, and now I'd be surprised if AO had more than 10k subscriptions.
tl;dr Other MMO makers have made the same mistake CCP is making now by letting EVE sit like they have and it cost them dearly. It makes sense to develop new games and publishing them, but when doing so at the expense of your bread & butter game, that's just silly. CCP may well be in a few years the new Funcom, dead dog that used to be in the A league but now... Not so much!
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Jed Clampett
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Posted - 2010.08.25 21:00:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Jed Clampett on 25/08/2010 21:01:22 In the end as long as it does not get too extreme
lag is acceptable IF -- everyone slows down equally, smoothly and in synchronization without rubberbanding (no jerky or confusing "take backs on past actions"). This particularly true for supermassive combat - where it can actual give you time to appreciate and react to the complex situation.
The worst problems with lab and compensating technology are on individual 1 on 1 or very small team battles. For example, right now autotargeting modules have become "instant lock" and allow shooting incoming ships the instant they leave warp...or in some cases before they leave warp. Sure level 5 skills in a BC is a fairly quick lock on. But right now you can have a new warp target selected and you mouse pointer over the warp to 0 button and never get the most agile frigate to start the new warp command before being blasted away by someone already in a low sec belt (two volleys).
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