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Ir'aleo Senior
Amarr The Ahool Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.17 07:07:00 -
[1]
To start this is not a rant or whining about how suicide gankers get easy kills and all. No post about how CCP should give Exhumers a larger buffer or special tools to prevent certain thing to happen. But here is the thing:
Yesterday I was doing a mission for a production agent to raise standings. It was a mission to mine 44k m3 of some special form of Ore. While I wanted to speed up things I entered the site with my alt in an Orca as well. Just before I almost got all ore out a Harb warps in targets me and scrams me (gotta give him a heads up for taking the effort to even scan me down when he would have had 'easy' targets in the belts). I reacted and activated my shield booster, but there was no use in that anymore. Concord showed up way too late ofcourse so that was a 125mil loss (besides the unfortunate case that 102 units of the mission specific Ore got blown up and I couldn't turn the mission in).
My question is what I can do about this, or better said can I fit my ship in such a way I have enough time to survive before Concord arrives. Is it even possible to fit against a targeted (so no smartbombing BS) attack?
For reference my fit consisted of the following:
A shield resistance amplifier for heat and EM, a shield booster (Meta 4), 3 strip miners a rockscanner æDactylÆ something and in this case 2 Cargohold expander. Rigs are also cargorigs.
1.Should I go for Deadspace amplifiers (no cap for hardeners)? 2.Would a B-type shieldbooster help enough? 3.Can I store/switch the ship in the Orca while being scrammed? 4.Would a shield transporter (+logistic drones) on the Orca help enough and if yes what size? 5.Fit a DCU II in a low slot? 6.Do the trick with an alt and make sure some Concord ships are already present? 7.Loose the rockscanner and fit ECM and cross my fingers?
But please start with the flames like: htfu, live with it, it is part of gamemechanics or "Don't undock in it". I know many people donÆt read too well so I expect those to comment in such ways. For the flamers: I know it is part of the game, I know you arenÆt safe anywhere, and I know that I shouldnÆt fly what I canÆt afford too lose. Point is I am going to get a new one and want it to be a little more resilient (without paying 100Æs of millions ISK for defenseive measures).
TL;DR: I got ganked in my Hulk and need to know if I can fit it to be able to survive till Concord arrives.
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.08.17 07:49:00 -
[2]
A DC2 is a very good one-slot tank module, and will give a lot of EHP. I'd say the following would be an optimisation on the safe side. With an Orca nearby, you don't need a lot of cargohold.
3x strip miner
Inv2 x2 EM hardener 2 ECM burst 2
DC2 Last slot can be a cargo expander or better yet a warp stab
Rigs: 2x med core field extender 1
EHP: 24439, with heat: 27734
With a warp stab, you'll be safe from disruptors, and the ECM should work against scrams.
------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.17 10:50:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ir'aleo Senior 1.Should I go for Deadspace amplifiers (no cap for hardeners)? 2.Would a B-type shieldbooster help enough?
This will certainly make you a worth-while target, and not help you in any useful way. While a booster certainly helps in the long run, your first priority needs to be to ensure that there is a "long run", and that means creating a decent bufferà
Quote: 4.Would a shield transporter (+logistic drones) on the Orca help enough and if yes what size?
Same thing here. It helps in the long run, but you still need a base buffer (unless you can precision-time the rep pulses).
Quote: 5.Fit a DCU II in a low slot? 7. Loose the rockscanner and fit ECM and cross my fingers?
It certainly helps. You should also consider ditching all kinds of cargo expanders since these kill your hitpoints ù if you have an Orca, there's no real point in having a big hold on the Hulk to begin with. So ditch the cargo mods and rigs, and go for some bulkheads and shield extenders instead. All in all, you can probably get some 25-30k EHP out of a Hulk ù it's not much, and it might not be quite enough to survive, but it's a hell of a lot more than the 8-10k EHP a cookie-cuter Hulk sports.
Likewise, the Orca gets a big honking bonus to the rock scanners, so having that one on the Hulk isn't all that necessary. Gang up, scan with the Orca and tag the rocks you want to go after. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Makko Gray
Gallente Nexus Aerospace Corporation The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.08.17 11:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zilberfrid ...ECM burst 2... ...Warp Stab...
Use the ECM burst in high sec and he risks being concorded. And the warp stab will screw your targetting range and unless you had 2 you'd still be stuck with a scram on you.
Shield boosters are fairly useless against ganking. Better of trying to get high resists and a buffer. You could also stick a shield warfare link on the orca plus shield transfer. Perhaps pack ECM drones to try break the lock.
I think 2 T2 invulnerability fields with a T2 damage control is best bet, then shield mods to fill the resist holes.
As it's buffer you want and you don't need cargohold expanders with an orca there you could try hero tank and drop in something to boost armor hp or resists. But shield or armor reps will be of very little help as suicide ships are designed to do dps as quick as possible and you'b be lucky to get more than 1 or 2 reps off.
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Ir'aleo Senior
Amarr The Ahool Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.17 11:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ir''aleo Senior on 17/08/2010 11:53:51 Well as this was my first ever Hulk I got, I fitted it with those rigs as I didn't have the Orca-alt at that time. As I went a lot solo mining I fitted the cargo expanders as well because my mining spot is one jump out of my base station and the system contains. With the Orca as support I usually fit MLUÆs but didnÆt switch this time. Personally I think with over 20k EHP I would have survived this attack, it is just that I never expected someone to scan me down in a mission site. Only advantage I can think of is that he didnÆt get any gain out of it as I scooped the stuff in my wreck and his (about 10 T2 modules) with the Orca.
As for the ECM-burstàwouldnÆt that get me Concorded once activated? I was referring to ECM-jammers (multispectral). But seeing the tips I got I think there are better options to prolonge (right word?) my survival massively.
I will do the following. I know T2 is slightly better but as this character is mostly skilled for invention/production I need a little more training. Only one more level needed for DCU II but as I have one lying around I use this meta item.
[Hulk, Buffer setup] Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Reinforced Bulkheads II
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix 'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement Small Clarity Ward Booster I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
EHP = 21.681 with my current skills Resists = 81,3 û 73,7 û 80,3 û 81,6
I think in the case I described where I got attacked by that one single Harbinger I might have survived the attack. I will also start using the Concord presence trick again. That at least cuts Concord response time and raise my chances of survivability.
Is there anyone that can tell me whether or not it is possible to store the Hulk while being under attack and scrammed? I know it takes agility to quickly drop the Ore you have before storing the ship but I donÆt even know it is possible at all.
EDIT: Might indeed go for the ECM drones leaving the Mining drones in the hangar (or let the orca mine with those for that extra tiny bit of yield). As for the warfare link I need my alt to train for that as she doesn't have anything trained yet in that area.
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Zaq Phelps
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.17 11:57:00 -
[6]
1. No. Deadspace/faction/officer mods make you stand out and raise the profitability of the effort to kill you. People don't just kill hulks because they're that wimpy nerd kid on the block. A lot of times they kill hulks for their lunch money too. You need to become the least desirable, least profitable, most effort to kill prey. 2. Shield boosters help damage after an assault, not before. In pvp (which is what you were in engaged in the moment the harby scanned you down) a buffer tank is better than an active tank. Buffer is like pre-repped shields; it will take extended combat for a shield booster to overcome the effectiveness of a buffer. Extended combat is something that won't happen if the attacker and concord has any say. Also, B-type is best type... for attracting gankers. 3. IDK, try it on SiSi. Something tells me no. 4. Yes, and as big as you can put without compromising your fit too much (I'm guessing large). It won't help with the initial volley, but if you have a proper buffer it should be a couple of volleys before they can kill you. It won't prevent an attack, and it's no guarantee of surviving, but it increases your chances. 5. Yes, you don't need expanders if you have an orca. It's like a giant cargo can. 6. Yes, assuming it's not an exploit. 7. ECM on an unbonused ship is fail. Put the rockscanner on the orca and install moar buffer.
[Hulk, MOAR BUFFER!!!] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Small Shield Extender II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Or this
[Hulk, Buffer and MLUII] Internal Force Field Array I Mining Laser Upgrade II
V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix 'Anointed' I EM Ward Reinforcement Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
First one has a better buffer, second one still has a decent buffer, but more ore yield.
TL;DR You can fit it until concord arrives... some of the time. Don't put expensive mods, do put moar buffer to increase the number of people it will take to kill you. It would take a suicide harby around 60-70 seconds to chew through these fits, so plenty of time for concord to show up. Better than that, the harby will likely just choose some other target.
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Ir'aleo Senior
Amarr The Ahool Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.17 12:19:00 -
[7]
I love to go on Sissi and even with all the explaining there is about it I can't get it to work. But it doesn't matter too much. I can let a corpmate scramble me and see if it works. The corpmate won't be concorded anyway.
Regarding the fits, thanks for the advice. I'll take them in consideration as soon as I have the skills to use all of the mentioned items. As said I am purely trained for Industry/Science and didn't train certain skills very high at all. And the booster....I'm a carebear most of the times. Never thought about the buffer and a booster being for PvE and having problems with it in PvP (I am aware this encounter was). So I go switch the booster for a small T2 extender and mine yet another 44km3 of ore for that mission. With T1 strippers , the Ore I need is a high end one and being a hi-sec player I never trained anything beyond Kernite reprocessing.
And again thanks for the advice and tips everyone. Let's earn back that Hulk now, and with production-agent missions that shouldn't take more than 1-2 months
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.17 12:58:00 -
[8]
Oh, just thought of another thing (d'oh!): since you have that Orca, remember that you also have a mobile fitting station. This means that you can toss a whole slew of different mods for all your various needs into the Orca's corp hangar and then refit your Hulk as needed.
Should something come and attack you (and if you survive), you can just scoot over, put on a booster/repper/whatever you need, and get yourself fixed up after the fact. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
My Postman
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Posted - 2010.08.17 13:02:00 -
[9]
Dont go faction/deadspace, it attracts gankers like cows*** a fly.
DO go for the DC II, it adds a lot of EHP!
I go something like this, highsec solomining:
Low: DC II Expanded Cargohold II
Mid: Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II INVUL II Rock Scanner
High: Obvious
Rigs: Cargo Opti I Shield Rig
I¦m at work so i don¦t have the exact numbers, but if my mind serves me well it has something like 27k EHP. For even more paranoia drop Expanded Cargohold, Rock Scanner and Cargo Rig for even more passive resis.
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Ir'aleo Senior
Amarr The Ahool Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.17 13:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tippia Oh, just thought of another thing (d'oh!): since you have that Orca, remember that you also have a mobile fitting station. This means that you can toss a whole slew of different mods for all your various needs into the Orca's corp hangar and then refit your Hulk as needed.
Should something come and attack you (and if you survive), you can just scoot over, put on a booster/repper/whatever you need, and get yourself fixed up after the fact.
Yeah well that isn't all that easy. As the miners corp needed to raise standings for placing a hi-sec POS (hence the missioning) and because I wanted to merge accounts as I had too much of them, the Orca-alt left the corporation. She did join another corp in the alliance but because of that I can't look into the corporate hangars, which means I need to manually jettison all items I like to refit.
But when an attacker is gone I think the presence of Concord makes me able to 'slowly' think about what to do and the adrenaline makes me think fast.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.17 13:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ir'aleo Senior Yeah well that isn't all that easy.
Pah! I refuse to let your reality detract from my perception of the unlimited awesomeness of the Orca!!
Yes, that is a restriction, granted, but it's a solution worth considering for the future, should you get the two characters together again. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
price checkinho
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Posted - 2010.08.17 13:38:00 -
[12]
I've been the victim of suicide ganks and I've nullsec nija salvaged (suicide ganked) hulk wrecks. The way pros do it is in a gang of destroyers with smartbombs. You can set your hulk up however you like you will not survive if they know what they are doing.
That being said you should learn to use all of the resources available to you that will help you refrain from being the gank-ee altogether.
So set your hulk up with mining laser upgrades in the lows and drone rigs in the highs like it should be and mine away.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/
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GavinCapacitor
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Posted - 2010.08.17 20:19:00 -
[13]
I have not actually checked out the stats for this, but wouldn't a DC II and reinforced bulkhead II in the lows give you alot more HP (in addition to shield resists and extenders for mid slots / rigs)?
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.08.17 21:19:00 -
[14]
you had an orca and fit all cargo expanders....
/palmface
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Zaq Phelps
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.08.17 21:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: GavinCapacitor I have not actually checked out the stats for this, but wouldn't a DC II and reinforced bulkhead II in the lows give you alot more HP (in addition to shield resists and extenders for mid slots / rigs)?
I does give a couple thousand more EHP or so over the MLU + dc fit I posted, but at the cost of over 100m3/minute ore yield. If you were gonna give up the yield, then you're better off with the DCU + PDU fit I posted as it gets about the same EHP without making you slower than dirt slow. That said... structure buffer tank can actually work well on the Orca/Rorq, as long as you don't mind having to strap on a hull repper after whatever combat you find yourself thrusted into.
To the OP, it's ok if you can't fit it all, it was just to give you a general idea. Basically, buffer > active for surviving/deterring ganks, and don't fit expensive if you don't absolutely need it (like you might for tanking rats in nullsec). Even then, some people will still gank you for the lulz so pick mining holes that don't have a huge amount of activity and stay docked during hulkageddon.
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Ir'aleo Senior
Amarr The Ahool Guard
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Posted - 2010.08.18 10:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ir''aleo Senior on 18/08/2010 10:21:09
Originally by: RentableMuffin you had an orca and fit all cargo expanders....
/palmface
You are posting in a forum without reading it:
Well as this was my first ever Hulk I got, I fitted it with those rigs as I didn't have the Orca-alt at that time. As I went a lot solo mining I fitted the cargo expanders as well because my mining spot is one jump out of my base station and the system contains. With the Orca as support I usually fit MLUÆs but didnÆt switch this time. Posted in my second post
I didn't switch at first because I was watching the market in Jita. The Jita-alt is at the same account as the Orca so I had the intention to solo the site (44k m3). I later decided the Orca would come in handy for the bonusses and yes i know i can refit the Hulk in space.
/facepalm to you too
EDIT: The Hulk is bought and fitted as statted earlier except for the DCU. I took the F83-one as the other were still a little to expensive and I already sold the pseudo one.
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egola
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Posted - 2010.08.18 12:56:00 -
[17]
now heres a suggestion.....why not store your hulk INTO the orca instead of activating your boosters? now someone please confirm if this works or not because it seems like a bloody brilliant way of not losing a hulk
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Vadania Amastacia
Caldari Exploit Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.18 23:31:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Vadania Amastacia on 18/08/2010 23:32:36
Originally by: Ir'aleo Senior
3.Can I store/switch the ship in the Orca while being scrammed?
Yes, you can. You can be in a ship, fighting another ship, scrammed and webbed, and you can store your ship inside an orca or carrier anytime you like; being engaged in combat does not prevent you from doing so.
I remember a time on Sisi I was in a carrier on station and some people were *fighting* there; one guy was really getting pounded and I invited him into fleet then told him to store his ship in me asap; despite being under fire he was able to do so.
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Valeriene
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Posted - 2010.08.22 07:43:00 -
[19]
Fit a tank to your hulk and orca always even in high sec it could help to save you but dont forget they are not war ships and shouldnt be relied upon as such but likewise dont forget that the orca is a very neat piece of kit it has a corp hanger for fitting ships and a very nice 400k ship bay big enough to park a couple of fully fitted cruisers
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Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.22 12:42:00 -
[20]
I want to know WHY you got attacked - did you have any faction gear fitted?
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