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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Pipa Porto
867
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Posted - 2012.09.05 22:09:00 -
[3391] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Hulk: flown by large ops (as it is now in small numbers; the Mack is still favored due to its larger tank). Mack: flown for solo or small groups (unlike now, where it is used for both small and large groups because of its better tank over tthe hulk). Skiff: flown to avoid profit based ganks (close to now, except no reason to not use a Mack as it can avoid those same ganks).
All three woudl be flown, depending on what you are doing/how worried you are.
Right now, the only reason people fly Skiffs is because they think they are safer (but they aren't) than in a tanked Mack. Mack with worst tank would need support. Not for solo mining anymore.
You forgot a word there. AFK. The Mack would no longer work well for Solo, AFK mining.
If you're actually playing the game, you can easily keep yourself from getting ganked without any need for a tank. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Buck Futz
Suddenly Violence Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
74
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Posted - 2012.09.05 22:41:00 -
[3392] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Right now the Mack can be tanked with 2MLUs to be nearly impossible to break even with a suicide (I think a few thousand newb ships can do it cheap enough).
So, unless the ganker is just doing it for the sake of ganking, a Mack is as safe as a Skiff, but gets better yield and cargo.
If the ganker is doing it for fun, the Skiff is no safer than any other ship. The only thing that might make the Skiff any safer is that it cost less and so may not generate the tears the ganker is looking for. Other than that, it is just as likely to be ganked for fun as a Mack.
Now, the Skiff may survive that for fun gank better, but that only tends to lead to more of them showing up. - Risk vs. reward - 1-2-3 Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all.
No, if the Mack has the worst tank, it doesn't need the 'best yield' because it already has, by far, the biggest cargo bay. Cargo, not yield is the most desired characteristic for Exhumers, based on how miners used to fit them. See? Easy.
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Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1742
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Posted - 2012.09.06 01:03:00 -
[3393] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Right now the Mack can be tanked with 2MLUs to be nearly impossible to break even with a suicide (I think a few thousand newb ships can do it cheap enough).
So, unless the ganker is just doing it for the sake of ganking, a Mack is as safe as a Skiff, but gets better yield and cargo.
If the ganker is doing it for fun, the Skiff is no safer than any other ship. The only thing that might make the Skiff any safer is that it cost less and so may not generate the tears the ganker is looking for. Other than that, it is just as likely to be ganked for fun as a Mack.
Now, the Skiff may survive that for fun gank better, but that only tends to lead to more of them showing up. - Risk vs. reward - 1-2-3 Mack gets worst tank. Ok, that means it should have best yield. Now we get to important part. What it needs so that 1-2-3 would happen? Yes, ore bay from Skiff. Do you know where that would lead to? It's bloody obvious: one ship to rule them all. No, if the Mack has the worst tank, it doesn't need the 'best yield' because it already has, by far, the biggest cargo bay. Cargo, not yield is the most desired characteristic for Exhumers, based on how miners used to fit them. See? Easy.
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1302
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Posted - 2012.09.06 03:10:00 -
[3394] - Quote
Valari Nala Zena wrote:In 5 years of mining, i've been suicide ganked 3 times, lost 1 mackinaw each time. There has been a couple more attempts but only failed ones.
In the end, even with 3 lost macks, it was worth it because i'm mining at a faster rate for years. These 3 lost macks mean nothing, compared to the billions i would have lost choosing tank instead of more yield. And the secret comes out. A bunch of miners just don't give a damn when they get ganked. If they get ganked.
Not bad though, less than one a year on average... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Buck Futz
Suddenly Violence Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
75
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:19:00 -
[3395] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obviously. Turn on your brain for a second.
Why? With your half baked solution (AKA; take anything but AFK mode+EHP!!!) .....lower the Mack's yield and you end up with this:
Yield: Hulk>Skiff>Mack Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk
Hulk at 1-3-3. Mack is 1-2-3 and Skiff is 1-2-2.
Hulk remains the worst in 2 of the 3 categories.
The simplest way to do it is swap the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw. Then each Exhumer is.... best in one category, 2nd in another, and worst in the last.
Besides, its elegant: the 'easymode' temptation to AFK mine is balanced with higher vulnerability to ganking.
Still, I'll give you credit, Yokai: Its clear you've accepted our premise that the Exhumers are badly balanced and need a revision.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
626
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:23:00 -
[3396] - Quote
Posting in 1... 2... 3... http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
99
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:31:00 -
[3397] - Quote
Buck Futz wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obviously. Turn on your brain for a second. Why? With your half baked solution (AKA; take anything but AFK mode+EHP!!!) .....lower the Mack's yield and you end up with this: Yield: Hulk>Skiff>Mack Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk Hulk at 1-3-3. Mack is 1-2-3 and Skiff is 1-2-2. Hulk remains the worst in 2 of the 3 categories. The simplest way to do it is swap the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw. Then each Exhumer is.... best in one category, 2nd in another, and worst in the last. Besides, its elegant: the 'easymode' temptation to AFK mine is balanced with higher vulnerability to ganking. Still, I'll give you credit, Yokai: Its clear you've accepted our premise that the Exhumers are badly balanced and need a revision.
My recent experience was not at all favorable toward this plan.
In the systems I normally mine in there have been lots of retrievers mining but they mostly just take what they need and leave. The belts always have the ore in them I need or I can find a belt in system that has what I need when I need it. But recent events a big mining corp moved in with mutiple Orca's and lots of Hulks. They strip mine every belt in system then move on to the next system and then the next. In 5 hours or so they clean out 4 + systems around me of every thing.
These are not retrievers or Macks doing this. They are fleets of Hulks and Orca's. So if ever I wanted to gank a miner those Hulks have my vote as they are like a locust. By all means leave the Hulk as the easiest miner to gank.
I admit I am looking at this from my perspective. But then so is everybody that posts. If they say different they are lying. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
626
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:33:00 -
[3398] - Quote
I think we should be at least encouraging people to play with others, so the solo miner (Mack) should be the easiest one to gank, unless of course that person deliberately sacrifices quite a bit of yield in exchange for a good tank (Skiff).
Of course that doesn't preclude the multiboxers with their Hulk/Orca fleets, but at the point where you can afford to field such fleets yourself an occasional Hulk loss doesn't hurt all that much. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
169
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Posted - 2012.09.06 04:37:00 -
[3399] - Quote
And let nullbears print ISK while logged off... |
betoli
Ketogenic Killzone
45
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Posted - 2012.09.06 08:27:00 -
[3400] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Buck Futz wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Obviously. Turn on your brain for a second. Why? With your half baked solution (AKA; take anything but AFK mode+EHP!!!) .....lower the Mack's yield and you end up with this: Yield: Hulk>Skiff>Mack Cargo: Mack>Skiff>Hulk EHP: Skiff>Mack>Hulk Hulk at 1-3-3. Mack is 1-2-3 and Skiff is 1-2-2. Hulk remains the worst in 2 of the 3 categories. The simplest way to do it is swap the EHP of the Hulk with the Mackinaw. Then each Exhumer is.... best in one category, 2nd in another, and worst in the last. Besides, its elegant: the 'easymode' temptation to AFK mine is balanced with higher vulnerability to ganking. Still, I'll give you credit, Yokai: Its clear you've accepted our premise that the Exhumers are badly balanced and need a revision. My recent experience was not at all favorable toward this plan. In the systems I normally mine in there have been lots of retrievers mining but they mostly just take what they need and leave. The belts always have the ore in them I need or I can find a belt in system that has what I need when I need it. But recent events a big mining corp moved in with mutiple Orca's and lots of Hulks. They strip mine every belt in system then move on to the next system and then the next. In 5 hours or so they clean out 4 + systems around me of every thing. These are not retrievers or Macks doing this. They are fleets of Hulks and Orca's. So if ever I wanted to gank a miner those Hulks have my vote as they are like a locust. By all means leave the Hulk as the easiest miner to gank. I admit I am looking at this from my perspective. But then so is everybody that posts. If they say different they are lying.
Most peoples perspective is that they want to discourage solo/afk, yours is to discourage teamplay. Sounds like the miners in your area are working as designed to the point where there is a resource contention.
You shouldn't gank them, just wardec them, they are clearly stealing YOUR ore :-)
I'm liking the 1-2-3 argument. probably the HP on on mack and hulk should be swapped. However the consequences of doing that are a buff to the yield of the high yield ship, which can now fit 2 MLU without need for a tank.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1302
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Posted - 2012.09.06 12:26:00 -
[3401] - Quote
betoli wrote:Most peoples perspective is that they want to discourage solo/afk, yours is to discourage teamplay. Sounds like the miners in your area are working as designed to the point where there is a resource contention.
You shouldn't gank them, just wardec them, they are clearly stealing YOUR ore :-) Yeah, that should impress on them the importance of using NPC corps. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
baltec1
Bat Country
2070
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Posted - 2012.09.06 17:32:00 -
[3402] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Then the skiff would still be a pointless ship. |
Pipa Porto
873
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:02:00 -
[3403] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:And let nullbears print ISK while logged off...
Where's this offline isk faucet you're imagining? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
baltec1
Bat Country
2072
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:08:00 -
[3404] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:And let nullbears print ISK while logged off... Where's this offline isk faucet you're imagining?
I'm assuming moon goo. Something we have been fighting to get changed for a long time now. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1286
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:23:00 -
[3405] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:And let nullbears print ISK while logged off... Where's this offline isk faucet you're imagining? I'm assuming moon goo. Something we have been fighting to get changed for a long time now. And it isn't even a faucet. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
630
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:34:00 -
[3406] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:baltec1 wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:And let nullbears print ISK while logged off... Where's this offline isk faucet you're imagining? I'm assuming moon goo. Something we have been fighting to get changed for a long time now. And it isn't even a faucet. People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.06 19:10:00 -
[3407] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy.
And it's different from mining? |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1803
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:00:00 -
[3408] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
So nerf our yield but leave the hit points alone.
Then the skiff would still be a pointless ship.
I agree. I will admit after arguing with you guys you've helped me see the issue I was blind to. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
631
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:33:00 -
[3409] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining? Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
170
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:37:00 -
[3410] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk.
I meant the part where you think miners print isk. |
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Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1287
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:38:00 -
[3411] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk. I meant the part where you think miners print isk. Who in this thread said such a thing? |
Pipa Porto
874
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:41:00 -
[3412] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining?
Nobody's said mining is an ISK faucet. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4539
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Posted - 2012.09.06 20:44:00 -
[3413] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining?
Let me tell you about this thing called insurance
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1302
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:12:00 -
[3414] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining? Nobody's said mining is an ISK faucet. Tech is evil and needs to be nerfed even more, is what they were trying to go for I guess? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
betoli
Ketogenic Killzone
45
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:19:00 -
[3415] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk. I meant the part where you think miners print isk. Who in this thread said such a thing?
use crrl-f and type
"And let nullbears print ISK while logged off..."
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Pipa Porto
878
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:57:00 -
[3416] - Quote
betoli wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Yes, because believe it or not we incur significantly more risk. I meant the part where you think miners print isk. Who in this thread said such a thing? use crrl-f and type "And let nullbears print ISK while logged off..."
Try taking a look at who posted that little lie. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
285
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Posted - 2012.09.07 02:37:00 -
[3417] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining? Let me tell you about this thing called insurance While I'm not sure the ratio of fully insurable tech one hulls to other hulls used in nullsec combat defending moons, I'd think that in an environment where a far larger scale of ship loss is occurring and in which neither party is forfeiting their ability to receive insurance would generate a far greater influx of isk from insurance payouts. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1302
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Posted - 2012.09.07 05:17:00 -
[3418] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Malcanis wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:People seem to conveniently forget that the ISK we get from moon mining was already in the economy. And it's different from mining? Let me tell you about this thing called insurance While I'm not sure the ratio of fully insurable tech one hulls to other hulls used in nullsec combat defending moons, I'd think that in an environment where a far larger scale of ship loss is occurring and in which neither party is forfeiting their ability to receive insurance would generate a far greater influx of isk from insurance payouts. Well some people like their AHACs, T3 crusiers, faction/pirate ships....
But the good old drake gets a good chunk back from insurance. Always nice when the magic spacepolice helps make it easier to afford losing ships. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Exiled Mining
1931
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:23:00 -
[3419] - Quote
Ok so if you bring down the Mackinaws base hitpoints to that of the Hulks of close to it, what about giving the Mackinaw say 40 more CPU to make up for it. Would that be an even trade off? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
632
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Posted - 2012.09.07 14:38:00 -
[3420] - Quote
Why? The Mack already has plenty of CPU to fit a tank. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
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