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Silent Shaz
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Posted - 2010.08.27 05:16:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Silent Shaz on 27/08/2010 05:20:38
CrazyKinux is running griefing as the latest Eve Blog Banter topic. There is much in the way of interesting posts on the topic. You can even start here if you want: http://evilsilents.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/blog-banter-20-the-joy-of-loss/
To the OP, I've skimmed the entire thread and I couldn't see where you listed what happened to you that you consider griefing. Can you expand? it sounds at this point that you define any interaction with another player where you lose something as griefing. Unfortunately Eve is a PvP MMO, and as such isn't really suited to those who want to be left alone and safe.
In all honesty you're better off with WoW if that's what you want - but I hope you keep giving Eve a try because when you let go of the safety bubble, you realise that you too can be one of the sharks and there's a whole lot of potential in that.
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Liralynn
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Posted - 2010.08.28 06:17:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Liralynn on 28/08/2010 06:20:12
It's funny you should mention that. I've been thinking that some of you vets that say "it's not griefing" don't really know anymore what's griefing, such as the following:
Originally by: Hai Karamba
For new players.
Perhaps another oft-unstated point about 'griefing' is that even if you don't smacktalk or act like an arse, when you do get ganked, ninjad, podded or just loose out in some way - if you act aggrieved and display your unhappiness then that will attract the kind of people who get off on that kind of response.
Often it is better to just be quiet if all you can say is 'that sucks', or 'Where did all those remote-repping alts-come from?'.
It is not always obvious to High-sec industrial or mission/tradey type players (not saying carebares - oops I said it) that a lot of players just want to get more 'points' on their particular kill counting forum or whatever, and they don't care about style or kudos. If you register on thier radar or stick in thier minds as a bit of a joke they will come for you for ****s and giggles - and points on their kill list. This stilll isn't griefing, but it is nasty and to avoid the attention of such people just take losses silently if you can't avoid either moaning or trying to pretend 'that never hurt' nosily in local.
"if you act aggrieved and display your unhappiness then that will attract the kind of people who get off on that kind of response."
Um, the people who "get off on that kind of response" is a griefer. The definition of griefer is someone who enjoys causing grief.
Having said that, I'm a newb, less than 3 weeks old, and haven't been griefed yet. I'm a major carebear. My idea of fun in solo games is city building, and in MMO's I'm always a crafter and a healer.
So I've been cautious about Eve, and wouldn't have tried it at all, except that I've gotten bored with other games, and none of the stuff I haven't tried appeals to me. So my husband mentioned that he read that Eve was described as "Spreadsheets in Space" - ooohhh, spreadsheets! That's right up my alley.
So I give it a try. Within about 2 and half weeks, I've got about 30 newbie ships from doing the tutorials for each faction and enough ISK to buy AND fit about 50 more. Hmmm. I can afford to lose a ship or two. Then reminisced about some care bear games I've played.
In Eve, I haven't died within minutes of character creation by falling out of the tree where I was born.
I haven't been killed in a newbie zone by a griffon 30 levels higher than me who was invulnerable to weapons except ones that I won't find for another 10-15 levels. While in a building which prevented me from attacking back. Not that I had any chance if I could.
I haven't died, ending up naked, hungry, and losing hours of EXP, because all my gear is on my corpse, which is being camped by the mobs that killed me. Behind a locked door that I can't open because the key is on my corpse.
I haven't been caught in an infinite death loop, being killed over and over again by NPC guards, because I didn't make it to a safe insurance point after switching factions and the guards at my old home were really unhappy about me switching. Ironically, the ability for player griefers to camp spawn points had been removed a few years before.
So Eve doesn't seem so bad in comparison, especially since the game seems to be designed to make sure us carebears are adequately compensated for giving the griefers some fun. So far, my little Punisher hasn't attracted any attention, and if it does, *shrug*, I can buy over 50 more.
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Tarasina
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Posted - 2010.08.28 23:04:00 -
[63]
To the above:
In Eve there is NO corpse to run back to, it's been salvaged and looted (unless you mission, safely).
Nothing is safe in Eve, not Skillpoints, not Iskies.
to OP: Welcome to Griefers online. Seems the Eve playerbase has a different definition of griefing compared to other games.
If a rogue 50 levels higher kills your newbie, you are being griefed. If a player with 20 mil SP kills your newb char in Eve, he is "a good player", capitalizing on opportunities where they arise.
Don't waste time if you don't like it
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Vajra Spear
Gallente
Liquor and Scrap Inc
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Posted - 2010.08.29 04:35:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Vajra Spear on 29/08/2010 04:36:16
Edited by: Vajra Spear on 29/08/2010 04:35:56
Originally by: Liralynn
Edited by: Liralynn on 28/08/2010 06:28:55
Edited by: Liralynn on 28/08/2010 06:20:12
It's funny you should mention that. I've been thinking that some of you vets that say "it's not griefing" don't really know anymore what's griefing, such as the following:
Originally by: Hai Karamba
For new players.
Perhaps another oft-unstated point about 'griefing' is that even if you don't smacktalk or act like an arse, when you do get ganked, ninjad, podded or just loose out in some way - if you act aggrieved and display your unhappiness then that will attract the kind of people who get off on that kind of response.
Often it is better to just be quiet if all you can say is 'that sucks', or 'Where did all those remote-repping alts-come from?'.
It is not always obvious to High-sec industrial or mission/tradey type players (not saying carebares - oops I said it) that a lot of players just want to get more 'points' on their particular kill counting forum or whatever, and they don't care about style or kudos. If you register on thier radar or stick in thier minds as a bit of a joke they will come for you for ****s and giggles - and points on their kill list. This stilll isn't griefing, but it is nasty and to avoid the attention of such people just take losses silently if you can't avoid either moaning or trying to pretend 'that never hurt' nosily in local.
"if you act aggrieved and display your unhappiness then that will attract the kind of people who get off on that kind of response."
Um, the people who "get off on that kind of response" is a griefer. The definition of griefer is someone who enjoys causing grief.
The point is that pilots who kill you, rob you, scam you or generally have characters that make your EVE-life difficult may not be griefers, they may just be playing EVE in a way which aggrieves you personnally - it is natural after all for pirates to conflict with haulers etc and because EVE is the great free PVP sandbox that it is there are going to be lots of creative variations on this.
However, for most of us it is part of the fun and even with all the acting hard and heartless, the fun is intended to be mutual. Yarr!. After all, what fun would hauling be without pirates? What fun would mining be without rats, or other PC baddies? What fun would running a corp be without competition? What fun would pirating be without Merc Defense Gangs and Revenge Posses?
But if you whine in local, or the forums, or whatever then you will attract those who *ARE* griefers, those who *do* get off on you having a bad time, and that is to be avoided. Because for one thing, who wants to attract them to EVE?
VS
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Tranka Verrane
Mentors Administration
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Vajra Spear
The point is that pilots who kill you, rob you, scam you or generally have characters that make your EVE-life difficult may not be griefers, they may just be playing EVE in a way which aggrieves you personnally - it is natural after all for pirates to conflict with haulers etc and because EVE is the great free PVP sandbox that it is there are going to be lots of creative variations on this.
VS
To repeat: A griefer is someeone who gets off on making life difficult for other players without any other gain. The fact that someone is playing a character ingame who gets off on making life difficult for other players does not stop them being a griefer. They are just a griefer playing a griefer.
If you indulge in PvP you are being a griefer unless you:
- Are defending yourself
- Hope and expect to benefit economically, directly or indirectly, from the attack
- Hope to establish a social connection
- Seek to establish or defend a territorial claim
- Seek to establish competitive superiority with a foe of equal or greater potential, and thereby to build reputation
There are players, corporations and alliances in this game who exist solely for the purpose of griefing. One of the things you need to learn is that that will always be the case, and often they lay claim to some spurious strain of one of the above if challenged.
However they are much, much rarer than the OP is implying. Much more often they are part of the list above and you have strayed into something for which you were unprepared. If a heavyweight champion stands in a bar whacking anyone that passes, that would be griefing. If you wander into the ring with them you have no-one to blame but yourself.
__________________________________________________
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
For ingame help and advice join channel 'Mentors'.
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Vajra Spear
Gallente
Liquor and Scrap Inc
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Posted - 2010.08.29 23:27:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Vajra Spear on 29/08/2010 23:33:06
Originally by: Tranka Verrane
Originally by: Vajra Spear
The point is that pilots who kill you, rob you, scam you or generally have characters that make your EVE-life difficult may not be griefers, they may just be playing EVE in a way which aggrieves you personnally - it is natural after all for pirates to conflict with haulers etc and because EVE is the great free PVP sandbox that it is there are going to be lots of creative variations on this.
VS
To repeat: A griefer is someeone who gets off on making life difficult for other players without any other gain. The fact that someone is playing a character ingame who gets off on making life difficult for other players does not stop them being a griefer. They are just a griefer playing a griefer.
I agree. That is my point.
A griefer is someone whos intention is to make, life, or the gameplay experience for players a bad one - whether they are playing in character or not.
However there is no doubt that the assumption in EVE is that a player is going to enjoy PVP, it is going to be mutual fun. It is why they are playing EVE.
So most of the players engage in PVP so that everyone can enjoy playing EVE. Those who do it for the purpose of causing another player mental pain in any way for whatever reason, in or out of character are griefers. yes. I agree.
These are the people we do not want to attract to EVE - it is just not fun playing with them. The same as it is not fun playing with bullies.
On the other hand, it IS fun - and indeed neccesarry for someone to play the bad guy in a game of cops and robbers, and if someone is going to play cops and robbers and then accuse the robbers of being griefers then that is insulting, and thay will loose friends and no-one will want to play with them and it is also sad because the people playing the robbers were doing it so that everyone, especially the people they are actually interacting with at the time, can have fun and be happy, and if that is not why they are playing EVE for, to have fun, then why exactly are they playing it?
The reason I post in these threads - even though they keep turning up and the same things keep being said over and over, is because it is important in EVE to correctly and usefully, and appropriately be clear about the difference between griefers and players, because the whole point of games is to have fun. God knows life is hard enough as it is, we need to enjoy our fun time.
And if we are playing a game and someone is not enjoying it, and we allow that to continue without saying anything - we may even get off on it, then that is abuse. Abuse is *bad*.
Playing games and having fun is *good*.
If the players do not agree on these definitions before they start playing then people will end up crying. Crying is *bad*
So clear definitions have been made, by CCP and repeatedly by the players, so that pain and suffering can be avoided.
:)
<edit> Sorry for the rant Tranka - I didn't read your post properly the first time around and I got the wrong end of the stick 
Anyway I will leave it here - someone emay enjoy reading it  <edit>
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Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.08.30 01:03:00 -
[67]
Hey OP, come on in the water is fine. It's more fun to be a pira1a than a baitfish. Sure we still have to keep our eyes peeled for the big sharks, but we don't really get much grief. Only "new, emergent forms of game play" in which we are happy to participate.
Ninja Extravaganza, Strategies for Ninja Salvagers
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Tranka Verrane
Mentors Administration
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Posted - 2010.08.30 12:12:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vajra Spear
<edit> Sorry for the rant Tranka - I didn't read your post properly the first time around and I got the wrong end of the stick
Anyway I will leave it here - someone emay enjoy reading it <edit>
Small tip: If you are going to post a lot please leave a line between your paragraphs to break them up. I don't know about anyone else but I find your walls of text quite hard to read.
__________________________________________________
Player Since 2005
Over 4000 hours logged
For ingame help and advice join channel 'Mentors'.
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Liralynn
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Posted - 2010.08.30 23:30:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tarasina
To the above:
In Eve there is NO corpse to run back to, it's been salvaged and looted (unless you mission, safely).
Yeah, but my point was also that it's so easy to replace equipment in Eve compared to old school Carebear games.
As I mentioned above, I'm a diehard Carebear (is that an oxymoron? ;)), but after spending only a few weeks in Eve, as much as I hate to admit it, it's clear the economy would be toast if it weren't so easy to lose equipment. The first to suffer would be the crafters and the people who supply them, both of which are occupations that interest me.
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