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GeeShizzle MacCloud
147
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Posted - 2012.07.26 11:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Whilst i know many of you will see some of the proposals here as likely to incur a server performance hit if rolled out, plz be aware of its effects in large scale combat in eve (200 player fleets+)
i have gone through the list of common thread topics and havent found this concept to be part of it.
Proposal:
Space in Eve is largely devoid of anything that can affect large scale combat. although we know that in RL space is anything but a trivial "walk in the park". There are many instances where travelling to certain parts of a solar system could induce an effect on a ship (by this i don't mean gravitational eddies) but other effects as well, particularly effects that can apply/mitigate damage, affect lock speeds or indirectly break locks. these things have more commonly been part of WH space where an effect is always system wide.
What i propose is to look into bringing localised effects into every system in eve. possibly into areas of strategic or tactical advantage.
Smaller scale combat is probably better than it has been for a long while (though personally there is still quite a discrepancy between armor and shield tanking mechanics). its various nuances have the space in order to sway battles, the lack of actual mechanics to help organise atypical tactics and use of mods at this scale isnt a particular problem, and actually is within the realms of possibility, further fuelling new innovative tactics like we've seen on ATX.
if you read/know much about war based games, tactical handbooks and examples of large historic battles you will know that one of the defining aspects of a successful smaller force attacking a larger force is the force multiplyer of the terrain they fight in. Sun Tzu's art of war even devoted an entire chapter to it.
Whilst normal land based war games have typical mechanics to follow, in space the idea of terrain is much more abstract. we dont have high areas or low areas, they do not provide the advantages when in weightless space. but if you know anything about science and cosmology there are insane forces that take place in space between / around planetary bodies that can be used to improve large scale tactical PVP in Eve Online.
Would love to hear interesteing and unique comments and criticisms on this, not just "blllaaarrghh server laaagg!" as i had commented at the start of this proposal! |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Omega Industries
185
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Posted - 2012.07.26 12:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm going to ignore the additional server load as requested but please be aware that it is a valid concern.
So, ignoring that, it's an interesting suggestion. I'm not entirely sure quite what you mean in game terms but the initial concept has some legs. It needs a lot of fleshing out though.
For example, what effects will be caused by what forces? How will it be able for a small force to gain an advantage over a larger force, considering the same effects will be applicable to both fleets in the same grid (considering the forces you're talking about wouldn't be in such a small locale as sub-grid size). If there are positive effects from any of these forces how would you stop it from promoting blobbing, considering the more ships you have with the positive effect the better? What storyline would you use to initiate the implimentation (considering there has been lore releases with each change to New Eden).
That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot more questions to be raised but it's an interesting topic to debate. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
148
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Posted - 2012.07.26 12:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
well, what forces causing what effects are of course the subject of this topic and totally up for debate.
Some that are the basis for this proposal are of course damage type specific DPS in certain locales, for example: warping to 0 on the systems star, or electrostatic forces between large planets and some close orbit moons.
but it doesn't just stop there, as you can think of physical damage from heat or electric discharge to be 1 part of the EM spectrum, you can scale up and down that spectrum to have grid wide localised jamming/lock breaking occurring, penalties or buffs to ewar effects even repping power. and this could also be applied using various signature sizes adding tactical advantages or disadvantages to bringing shield or armor fleets.
how this advantage is applied to a smaller force against a larger force is situational, ill give a few examples: baiting a larger fleet with a streamlined omni-efficient fleet doctrine into a location where local effects affect them greater than the ambushing force can give tactical advantage. The reverse also applies where the other fleet is hit with damage that they've specifically had to sacrifice tank for to negate local effects. ECCM can help a fleet that have taken the precaution of fitting when going into strategic battles on a POS or iHub where local effects break jams say on a typical t1 ship with approx 20% chance, allowing locks to hold for longer and DPS to be applied.
the list for these sorts of things can grow and grow exponentially when u add effect, and then add tactics used in conjunction with them. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Omega Industries
188
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Posted - 2012.07.26 15:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ok, yes, I can see the point. It could potentially allow a defending fleet to choose ships and modules to suit a particular area. For example, if heat damage had a multiplier near the sun the defending fleet could ramp up their thermal resistances and pack thermal damage. It potentially gives well prepared defenders an advantage but also could give a tactical genius FC the ability to pull the rabbit out of the hat.
The only real issue I can foresee is implimenting it in K-space could be problematic. If the bonuses aren't sufficient the whole system would be ignored making the implimentation a tad pointless but if the bonuses were high it would end up creating stalemates where attackers just wouldn't initiate combat, knowing that the advantage the defending team has would swing the fight for sure. Even if you got it just right it would massively change the dynamic of pretty much all combat in the game. As has been shown by quite a few MMOs too much change too quickly can kill the game.
Now, if CCP introduced new region/s and implimented something like this at the same time, purely in the new region/s I can see it being accepted by the player base as a whole. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
151
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Posted - 2012.07.26 16:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
that is very true, and i do feel that balance would be key to making this work.
i would like to point out however that as much as this may seem a buff to defence, its not something that a defending force can change, the areas will be set to stay. But the mechanic does favour a force FC'd by someone that 'knows' his surroundings, i will admit to that, but its not something that cant be scouted, and generally the areas a strategic fight will take place are always scouted before.
currently fleet warfare is based on the rock scissor paper method where a fleet ships are optimised defensively to be as balanced as possible. you'd hear eft warriors talking about the best fit having less defensive holes in terms of resists etc...
This more dynamic localised effects in systems will force FC's to ask themselves if an omni setup is preferable, and if not, if a more tailored fit will result in theyre fleet being countered by the enemy firing a different damage type (using the damage they're augment fits are weakest to) or lowering their EHP to counter naturally occurring ECM/target breaking.
adding the terrain element helps break the monotony of rock paper scissor fleet battles where 9 times out of 10 its more about fleet numbers than strategic skill. after all most large coalitions fly multiple fleet types to counter the counter of their fleets. |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
51
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Posted - 2012.07.26 16:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
so you mean like..... wormhole effects? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
151
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Posted - 2012.07.26 16:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
sorta... but not "jump into system, feel effects immediately"
more like "jump into system, all is fine and dandy, warp onto particular grid in system - hmm thats an interesting effect affecting me" |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
76
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Posted - 2012.07.26 17:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
I am sorry but all I can think of is 'chest high walls' in your idea. While it would be interesting I thought that is what wormholes and their goffymetrics is for. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
151
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Posted - 2012.07.26 17:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
if by 'chest high walls' you're referring to the level of difficulty it'd impart to regular small scale PVP, most of that goes on at gates, in asteroid belts and at stations.
they wouldn't generally be areas that'd have these local grid effects.
and yes you may associate those effects in wormholes, but they have amazing potential to revitalise large scale PVP in null and low sec, yet they're wasted as an oddity and general fancy piece of tinsel in W-space where their potential could be used to such a greater extent in low/null. |
Aniqua Moliko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 17:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
hmmm... |
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FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
78
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Posted - 2012.07.26 17:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:if by 'chest high walls' you're referring to the level of difficulty it'd impart to regular small scale PVP, most of that goes on at gates, in asteroid belts and at stations.
they wouldn't generally be areas that'd have these local grid effects.
and yes you may associate those effects in wormholes, but they have amazing potential to revitalise large scale PVP in null and low sec, yet they're wasted as an oddity and general fancy piece of tinsel in W-space where their potential could be used to such a greater extent in low/null.
The problem with this idea, aside from the OH MA GOD!!!!!!!! server melting properties is: how would you know what is where?
For this to work, and I am ignoring the programming hell, is how would your ships know what zone has what aspects? You are expecting a server to have zone with certain advantages and disadvantages. How would the pilot know what is where in a 3D environment? Would it have some visual representation as some missions have stellar dust in them?
If so, how would this work when constantly shifting in and out of them? How far in between would they be?
Such things are key to the idea, but you did not address these problems. Sorry but I keep sounding offensive.
But just because you came up with an idea does not mean it is a good idea. You propose something without even going beyond 'hey I want chest high walls'. CCP already made the fluctuational environment in wormholes. And guessing based on them making them the same in the entire wormhole that making regional fluctuations would be a nightmare.
Similarly, some such zones might buff you beyond believe while others will turn off your capacitor or targeting range to -0.1? |
Aniqua Moliko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
err wat? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
158
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
FireT wrote: For this to work, and I am ignoring the programming hell, is how would your ships know what zone has what aspects? You are expecting a server to have zone with certain advantages and disadvantages. How would the pilot know what is where in a 3D environment? Would it have some visual representation as some missions have stellar dust in them?
If so, how would this work when constantly shifting in and out of them? How far in between would they be?
Such things are key to the idea, but you did not address these problems. Sorry but I keep sounding offensive.
But just because you came up with an idea does not mean it is a good idea. You propose something without even going beyond 'hey I want chest high walls'. CCP already made the fluctuational environment in wormholes. And guessing based on them making them the same in the entire wormhole that making regional fluctuations would be a nightmare.
Thats very true, and if i thought my idea was perfect in every way i wouldnt be here, id have been pitching it directly to the devs at Eve Vegas and other places, but i appreciate the strength co-operative brainstorming gives to an idea. Plus im not an expert on the inner workings of the graphics engine eve uses. if a grid grows, i dont know if a cloud effect can grow with the grid size. if it does awesome! if it doesnt then lets find another way to represent it, say with a popup like u sometimes have warping to sites?
as to the comment of knowing whats where, pilot orientation n all that: you have an overview right? and a working tactical view that shows you up and down right? plus an overview that you can select things and press approach right? i mean come on!
FireT wrote: Similarly, some such zones might buff you beyond believe while others will turn off your capacitor or targeting range to -0.1?
well this is a total exaggeration of what i was proposing. although in CCP infinite wisdom i wouldn't put it past them to royally screw up some local effects tbh! even so, it wouldnt be as extreme as that, itd only cause people to rethink a couple of mods on their ship, parting an imbalance on their fit. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
78
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
The problem with them would be that in low sec and in 0.0 is that they would become too much of a key installation for sectors. They would give the defenders or attackers significant advantages after all.
Even minor buffs would be exaggerated on capital ships. So how would that balance work (going to cover the placement later)? So minor buffs would be the only aspect? Or would they be similar to wormhole buffs and decreases?
Their placement is another key feature. They would have to remain outside, or very far away, from celestial bodies that allow anchoring of POS(es?) since it would give defenders too much of an advantage.
Ooooooooooorrrrr you could make them mobile similarly to celestial thingies that you can only find with probing. That way invading forces could find strategic advantages........ or fly into a hilarious ambush organized by the defenders. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
158
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
The effects would be on preloaded grid aka the grids like the star the planets the moons and maybe on sites aka anoms etc... I would stress that it wouldnt be on all and it would definitely NOT be on gate grids or station grids.
you do realise you contradicted yourself in the space of 5 lines. but if you want to give me an example of how a localised effect on a pre-loaded grid would only give the defenders advantage id gladly show you the other side of said coin =) |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
158
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Posted - 2012.07.26 23:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
id like to open that offer up to anyone btw
=) |
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Unicorn Enterprise
18
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Posted - 2012.07.27 01:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Now that is definitely a worthy idea to spice up the space warfare. And if done properly shouldn't actually melt any servers as well. As is see it, it's like some kind of bonus/malus effect that affect some of the base ship stats, they can be pre-calculated and applied really fast depending of where the ship is. Think of it as of a grid-sized booster with either positive or negative effect on some attribute(s). |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
193
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Posted - 2012.07.27 02:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
We already do this to an extent with MWD's not being able to activate in deadspace. It'd be cool to see the idea expanded. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project Black Thorne Alliance
106
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Posted - 2012.07.27 03:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mechael wrote:We already do this to an extent with MWD's not being able to activate in deadspace. It'd be cool to see the idea expanded. MWD's have been useable in deadspace for a few years now. And as cool as this idea sounds, I get the distinct impression it would also set the hamsters on fire. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
193
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Posted - 2012.07.27 03:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Mechael wrote:We already do this to an extent with MWD's not being able to activate in deadspace. It'd be cool to see the idea expanded. MWD's have been useable in deadspace for a few years now. And as cool as this idea sounds, I get the distinct impression it would also set the hamsters on fire.
I haven't done more than a handful missions in years ... but to my knowledge MWD's still don't work in some of them? Could be wrong. Apparently am. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
161
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Posted - 2012.07.28 11:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
guys dont get me wrong here, i do totally understand that the proposals are gonna hit server performance hard. The reasoning behind this proposal is to make aware a fundamental characteristic of Warfare is basically being ignored due to server performance. Your could say thats a good thing, you could say its a bad thing, i dont mind.
i just want to set some ideas and thoughts on it as a possibility for when server performance and code re-writes become efficient enough that its actually possible to implement something akin to these thoughts and ideas.
=)
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
161
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Posted - 2012.08.15 19:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
bumping for more thoughts and opinions =) |
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
24
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Posted - 2012.08.15 22:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think it's a great idea, knowing where you are fighting should make a difference.
We already have the E-war icons and effects near the ship HUD, just add one for local space effects, all the numbers are listed and shown to everyone in the area as soon as they are in range.
As to the area where these effects will happen is a tricky question to keep it fair to both parties. I say have them spawn like Cosmic Signatures, always within 4 AU of a planet / sun / other and have a bubble of 1AU.Then have them change once a week so the fleets can best figure out how to use a effect before it is gone. Today your station may have a thermal effect but tomorrow it may be gone / changed.
Bonus points:
- Same as W-Space, each sun should have specific types of effects that spawn in the system so when setting up a POS look at your best damage type and pick a star that will be the most helpful for defending IF you get the effect.
- Make the source of the effect scan-able, and with a proper module, fixable. This way a attacking fleet can remove the effect if they put enough resources to it. Also the defenders can safe guard this point to keep its effect. Be warned, the anomaly will randomly put out clouds of damage so don't get closer than you have to.
- The repair module will be a High slot with a heavy CPU load with scripts for each type of anomaly. Range should be dictated by skills as the closer you get the more likely you are to take damage.
SAMPLE SITUATION: You scan down an effect causing anomaly and warp to it. *CAUTION* due to being so close to the source there will be random 'clouds' that will damage your ship, frigates beware and bring a hardener for the effect in question.
It will take 100 cycles of "Experimental anomaly repairer I" to repair the anomaly to 100%, and the repair module can only do 1% repair in a 6 minute cycle bringing the total time to 10 hours (fixing space is hard).
Current science skills can be applied to reduce the cycle time down to say 4.5 minutes, but not the amount repaired ( insert Tech II here ).
This way if there is a fight over the effect it can be worked on over a few days and not quickly eliminated. Given the above, it would take 10 pilots only one hour to do the same work as one in 10 hours.
Sorry for the ramble, I tend to take an idea and run with it until I run out of characters!
Read and enjoy. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
163
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Posted - 2012.08.16 14:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Some nice ideas there btw!
i like the thought of an environmental ewar hud icon! and also the terraformation of systems idea.
i would like to say that these effects should be on grids where the action occurs tho, but not in places of high volume day to day traffic. it makes sense, if you're putting together a transport network you dont build through the most hostile or dangerous areas so it makes sense that stations and gates (ie areas with the highest consistent pilot traffic) wouldn't be built in areas with obscure or inherently dangerous effects occurring. jump gates can of course be moved to moons with no inherently dangerous effects, even possibly to places with advantageous effects like strong lockbreaking or ecm effects.
This is why i think that planet grids and moon grids should have a possibility of having effects occur on them. even if they are damaging effects. if a POS can online enough specific resists to passively recoup any damaging effects then it will be fine being online and moon mining for example. it will give advantages to attackers with the pos having a non optimum setup. and can be used to further add to the high risk high reward doctrine CCP likes using to balance mechanics, especially with high income moons, for example. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
490
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Posted - 2012.08.16 17:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
This has some nice potential, and it adds a level of immersion not currently present.
Currently, the systems are empty three dimensional constructs with no effects to speak of. Just holograms of objects and pretty backdrops. (Wormhole space is it's own version of this with arbitrary system wide effects)
If it were two dimensional, then it would be like a blank plain. Battles on blank plains are boring. We want obstacles getting in the way. If we are near to the sun, stellar wind effects should be a consideration that could effect actions due to thermal and EM being more concentrated. If we are in nebulae, or even a belt of asteroids, navigating through should be an obstacle that would give an advantage to the more prepared pilot.
TL/DR: There is no high ground advantage in EVE. This creates an oversimplified game-play experience we are used to, but could obviously improve upon. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
164
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Posted - 2012.08.16 19:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
im glad you've seen the light nikk! =)
im going to edit my initial post to reflect ideas on local effects and some more generalised extras to the design. |
Kraschyn Thek'athor
Marquie-X Corp Ewoks
4
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Posted - 2012.08.17 15:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
I guess there are very interesting effects in the vincinity of Plasma and Gas Planets. Nebulae or Comet tails that forces ships to "dive" into a matter filled area.
And I want to see small planetoids in diameter of a couple of hundred miles as obstacles. We have currently nothing except the small gravimetric belt Spodumain Roid that is in this size. It can't be sooo difficult to make a physical universe were Asteroids are obstacles and obstacles can be blasted into oblivion.
Only terrain can make small scale pvp interesting.
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
491
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Posted - 2012.08.17 15:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
I am thinking ships will be vulnerable to various effects.
Passing through a dust cloud / nebulae would cause kinetic damage.
The stellar wind from different star types could give an advantage or interfere with the different racial sensor types.
It should be possible to hide in the sensor shadow of certain objects, assuming you had a good idea of where the seeking vessel was relative to it.
Speeding through a debris field or asteroid belt should cause kinetic damage similar to a dust cloud, but in isolated bursts instead of a consistent rate of damage.
Ships can use various shield or armor hardeners, as well as sensor boosters, to overcome and gain an advantage over those who did not prepare.
Fortune favors the prepared mind. -Louis Pasteur Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
182
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Posted - 2012.08.18 18:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
It should be possible to hide in the sensor shadow of certain objects, assuming you had a good idea of where the seeking vessel was relative to it.
Fortune favors the prepared mind. -Louis Pasteur
i really like this idea... and would be interesting to see if this could be coded. tho i dont think u could code relative positioning into it. but being the opposite side of an object has its advantages anyway.
say u get within x distance from an asteroid then it masks ur signature, then u can add ship signature sizes relative to an asteroids size and so long as its past a certain ratio, your signature will be masked and you'd disappear off peoples overviews.
stray too far from the asteroid or turn on a mwd or have too many LSE's or too large a ship for any asteroid in the field and you will appear on peoples overviews and dscan tho.
this form of signature masking shouldnt be possible if someone is actively scanning you down with combat probes tho.
and if someone sees you hiding by a large asteroid... although they cannot target you, they should be able to target and break up the asteroid you're hiding near... and breaking it up will cause ur masking to be nullified, allowing them to target you. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
493
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
It might simply be a case of getting within 2km of any stellar object, where your ship's signature is 20% or less of the stellar objects equivalent sig.
(Small ships can hide behind big things, a well respected tactic)
An option to warp into a position opposite the default beacon's warp in point should be possible, even if it means creating a custom bookmark for it manually. The hunters warped to planet VII, but the ship had vanished from the scans. He was either out of range, or they would need probes. All those moons, so many places he could be hiding...
Planets and other stellar objects are more than just pretty images. Sensor energy broadcasts flow in line of sight, not curve around objects, and certainly not seeing through objects as if they did not exist. Yes, there are things in space that won't block sensors. But those things are also harder to see, as blocking the sensors is exactly what makes them visible to the sensor's receiver. For that reason gas clouds are not really as effective as moons to hide behind. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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