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Devil's Assistant
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Posted - 2010.08.24 00:19:00 -
[1]
This solution will need 2 things: attention and having the journal open.
1) You activate the miners and a timer will appear, just like if you where going to self destruct but a different color and for 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes. (whatever CCP wants)
2) After this time is up. A window will show just as if you where entering a sanctum or something showing a number.
Example:
Asteroid harmonics have changed to five please calibrate your ships computer accordingly
** it is important that this page not have the ability to be copied. So it can only be read
3) you open you Journal, in expeditions or another tab there will be a set of 5 possible number and letter sets.
example:
1) 56t4 2) 23gh 3) Gh76 4) JUS7 5) llRT
4) You choose the one that is marked by the number given in step 2
1) 56t4 2) 23gh 3) Gh76 4) JUS7 5) llRT <---------- This is the one you choose as stated in step 2
IMPORTANT: These are some warnings
1) Since there are 5 sets you can only fail 2 times at entering the password. If not macros need only copy and paste all the possibilities 1 by 1 until they get the right one.
2) There should be a grace period of at least 1 to 2 minutes for the pilot to enter the password.
3) The penalty for not entering the password at all should be a 1, 2 or 3 minute delay before reactivation of the mining modules. and the penalty for entering them incorrectly should be the same.
Pros:
1) A fairer playing environment where the players and not the bot do the work 2) An equal work vs reward 3) no more boting 4) can be implemented with little work ( personal opinion )
Cons:
1) EMORAGE quitters that never knew how to play decently in the first place. 2) restructuring of the mining environment to sustain actual players ( not much of a con but a bit more work on the CCP end )
Possibilities:
1) Implementation of better ships for mining ( one with 8 high slots and be able to fit 8 strip miners xD LOLZ )
2) Creation of more optimizations for the mining industry
3) Leveling out of prices
Other Ideas:
1) T3 mining ships. ( can use subsystems for defense or mining capabilities. 1 ore 2 more strip miners apart from the maximum three does not hurt )
2) Mining capital ships
3) heavy mining drones ( cannot be used by carriers )
4) Capital strip miners and ice harvesters
Any ideas please post. And please be constructive, don't be "trollin" just constructive criticism.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.24 00:56:00 -
[2]
It's a nice attempt, but IIRC bots operate on a concept called "OCR". That is to say that they literally read the screen, and thus they could quite likely perform the same actions a human could better than a human could. Honestly, I think the only way to stop botting is to turn mining into a thought sink instead of a click/time sink.
What I'd like to see is something like PI that didn't suck. It would also be ok to use something like the X universe supply chain system.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.08.24 03:30:00 -
[3]
Bots can read, your idea is now useless. sorry.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.08.24 04:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 24/08/2010 04:04:21 So basically, it's a really convoluted CAPTCHA without the... TCHA.
All this would do is serve as an annoyance to human miners. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Devil's Assistant
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Posted - 2010.08.24 04:26:00 -
[5]
What about an image?? Just like the ones used when you try to make an account in a website. So the number in the message would be displayed as an image just like the a portrait of a character. So when its says:
Asteroid harmonics have changed to five please calibrate your ships computer accordingly
It would appear as an image
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.08.24 04:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mara Rinn on 24/08/2010 04:27:32
Originally by: Devil's Assistant 2) After this time is up. A window will show just as if you where entering a sanctum or something showing a number.
Would you accept such an impost on activating a warp scrambler or armour repairer? No you wouldn't.
Will your CAPTCHA idea stop botters? No it wouldn't. They can do the simple mechanical tasks (recognise this text, look it up in this list, enter that number) better than humans can.
Note: the bots will simply OCR the text when it appears on screen.
Quote: 1) A fairer playing environment where the players and not the bot do the work
No, you'd have an environment where the bots are significantly more efficient than the humans.
Quote: Any ideas please post. And please be constructive, don't be "trollin" just constructive criticism.
There is no way to constructively critique an idea when you have not even spent five minutes reading previous "how to solve the mining bot problem" posts on the Features and Ideas forum. You don't describe what the problem is that you're trying to solve. You don't explain how your idea solves the problem, you just explain how your new problem will impact upon the player.
Remember to read the various "how to identify a macro miner" threads in the S&I, general discussion and other forums. The difference in behaviour comes down to the bot automatically warping to a particular bookmark, activating some modules, waiting some period of time, warping back to station.
The easiest way to make life harder for bots and more interesting for humans is to take away the utility of bookmarks for mining bots. One idea is to remove static asteroid belts from systems and have them spawn in deadspace signatures instead.
This is a topic which has been discussed back and forth, please do the research before you suggest the same/similar "silver bullet solution" that other people have suggested dozens of times in the past.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.08.24 04:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Devil's Assistant What about an image?? Just like the ones used when you try to make an account in a website. So the number in the message would be displayed as an image just like the a portrait of a character. So when its says:
Asteroid harmonics have changed to five please calibrate your ships computer accordingly
It would appear as an image
Assume, for a moment, that you can just make a true CAPTCHA that would thwart most bots.
Would it really be worth it?
There you are, mining, ratting, missioning, whatever, and some obnoxious ****ing box pops up and informs you that you have to enter the right letters from the jumbled cluster-**** it has presented you with in order to proceed.
**** that. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Flesh Slurper
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Posted - 2010.08.24 05:53:00 -
[8]
Also the CAPTCHA that is strong enough to thwart OCR is a lot of times difficult for humans to read as well. Made even worse by having people in the game who speak varying languages. |
Teck Nine
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Posted - 2010.08.24 11:30:00 -
[9]
I like this idea because there are to many people that use macro mining programs and we need to fight back. Write a program for the game to change the location of the stations or make a mining barge and exhumer sec level restriction to where they can go into the system but can't mine the roids. Like make Procurer, Retriever and Covetors able to mine in 1.0sec to 0.9 sec and make the Skiff, Hulk and the other Exhumers able to mine in 0.8 sec and lower.
And as for orcas let then into 1.0 sec but block the fleet boosting for mining and such.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.24 15:15:00 -
[10]
The solution to botters is moar hulkageddons :) We need some rich guy to give out a bounty for every solo miner km, and persist for like a year. It would be awesome.
More seriously the real solution to botting is just making mining more interactive, which i think ccp is actually working on a bit. All in all I'm not hugely worried about it, just go gank them.
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.08.24 17:55:00 -
[11]
This basic idea gets suggested about every two weeks.
Studies have shown that bots used for creating e-mail account with people like Microsoft and Google have over a 60% success rate on working out a CATCHA on first attempt.
The Bots in eve are not simple macros for the most part, they are professionally written programmes that are run on a bunch of machines (20-40 accounts) with a human bot herder to keep an eye on things. As soon as CCP make a change to stop them, the bots get updated. The people behind them either buy the programmes with support or have their own developers in house.
When CCP first released snowballs, the majority of the bots automatically used drones to deal with attacks. Their programme assumed the 0.0 damage message was an attack and there drones attacked resulting in concord paying them a visit. A couple of hours have the snow balls were released the bots started to log out on mass. The next day after down time they all started logging back in with the updated programme that did not respond to snowball attacks. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.08.26 05:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Devil's Assistant What about an image?? Just like the ones used when you try to make an account in a website. So the number in the message would be displayed as an image just like the a portrait of a character. So when its says:
Asteroid harmonics have changed to five please calibrate your ships computer accordingly
It would appear as an image
Bots can read. This is the third time you have been told this. In order to make a captcha so obscure a bot can't read it, image or not, it has to be essentially impossible for a human to read as well. Your average forum signing up bot isn't this complex, but since isk farmers actively make money off this, and their whole enterprise would vanish if they did not employ such complex bots, you can be assured they will.
So what do we get from your idea? A huge CAPTCHA window that smashes your immersion into a thousand tiny pieces (incidently, if you want to make a game fail, keep reminding your players it isn't real), that doesn't stop bots.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2010.08.27 10:17:00 -
[13]
The solution is to make membership in an NPC corp prohibitively expensive tax wise. Make the botter choose to take a huge loss on operations for that wardec immunity (60% sounds good) or form up a corp. Then you, the carebear, actually pay attention and hire mercs to aggressively protect your AO from the botters (or GASP do it yourself).
Fix NPC corps and fix the problem. "Aghast the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is." |
shady trader
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Posted - 2010.08.27 14:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: KaiserSoze434 The solution is to make membership in an NPC corp prohibitively expensive tax wise. Make the botter choose to take a huge loss on operations for that wardec immunity (60% sounds good) or form up a corp. Then you, the carebear, actually pay attention and hire mercs to aggressively protect your AO from the botters (or GASP do it yourself).
Fix NPC corps and fix the problem.
This would not stop the Bots, they would just form bot own corps to do the refining and selling of mineral then transfer the cash. even if you had CCP cease 50% of the ore they miner from them when they dock, they just warp to a safe spot and transfer the ore to a bot corp Orca or hauler to take to the station.
CCP need to being cruel and sneaky when it comes to isk sales. Nuke the accounts of the buyers or give them -10 sec status or reset ever players standing for them to -10. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Caldari Citizen20090217
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Posted - 2010.08.27 15:15:00 -
[15]
Even the free scripting languages have the ability to look for a predefined set of pixels on the screen. Meaning you can set it to look for your popup message, interpret and act accordingly all automatically. Therefore your idea will not work, and will annoy those who are too honest/computer illiterate to cheat.
A better idea would be to find a way to force them into wardeccable player corps, and allow players to blow them up. With the current corp hopping etc tho this isn't possible, even the 0.0 macros have total immunity provided courtesy of the all-seeing local.
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SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.28 09:15:00 -
[16]
Make macro mining a Concord actionable crime. Make a system where players can "call" Concord and tell them that a macrominer is doing his thing and where. This would alert CCP to the incident who would investigate the player further. If the player exhibits the traits of a macro junkie then they would send the player an email stating something like "You are suspected of being in violation of the EULA. Cease and desist all Macro Mining activities or you will be fired upon." Then if they do not respond and seem to ignore CCP and Concords warnings they get auto God moded to oblivion and their Sec Status hits 0.0 for 6 months or something and stays that way until they either Ragequit or their "probation" is over. Then during this Probation if they try to do it agian their account gets banned permanently. More salvage for me to pick up and less of them screwing with the belts. Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!! |
U34542U
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Posted - 2010.08.28 11:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SGT FUNYOUN Make macro mining a Concord actionable crime. Make a system where players can "call" Concord and tell them that a macrominer is doing his thing and where. This would alert CCP to the incident who would investigate the player further. If the player exhibits the traits of a macro junkie then they would send the player an email stating something like "You are suspected of being in violation of the EULA. Cease and desist all Macro Mining activities or you will be fired upon." Then if they do not respond and seem to ignore CCP and Concords warnings they get auto God moded to oblivion and their Sec Status hits 0.0 for 6 months or something and stays that way until they either Ragequit or their "probation" is over. Then during this Probation if they try to do it agian their account gets banned permanently. More salvage for me to pick up and less of them screwing with the belts.
To support the "traits of a macro junkie", they also seem to cancel conversation requests. I'm not sure if this is a game feature where you can reject all private conversation requests, but even then the possibilities are as follows:
1: its a built in game function to reject all private conversations AFTER paying that CPDA or something charges? And for some reason I find mainly miners doing this function. 2: or it is a macro clicking no super fast,
I agree with SGT FUNYOUN. We all know how they can be identified, if we can report them and if possible CCP can put more workload on the GM'S to respond to such 'calls' fast then we can remove them one by one. The response does not have to be to all the calls, but rather the latest call, this way maybe the on-line GM can try to hit one every 3 hours, so to keep the workload low.
If this capability was given, I will make it a personal task to find one macro miner a week, and if 100 people did the same I am sure this issue will be solved fairly quickly.
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GamTen
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Posted - 2010.08.28 16:19:00 -
[18]
My question is, how many bots are there in EVE and how much money would CCP lose for preventing macro mining.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.08.28 19:28:00 -
[19]
I want this crap for all activities, want to jump popup your warp core's harmonic resonance field needs to be reconfigured, want your weapons to keep firing, oh no a power spike has disrupted your weapons systems you need to reroute power through tertiary conduits to maintain weapon firing, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------- Fanboys would make great cult members. |
shady trader
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Posted - 2010.08.28 20:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: U34542U
To support the "traits of a macro junkie", they also seem to cancel conversation requests. I'm not sure if this is a game feature where you can reject all private conversation requests, but even then the possibilities are as follows:
1: its a built in game function to reject all private conversations AFTER paying that CPDA or something charges? And for some reason I find mainly miners doing this function. 2: or it is a macro clicking no super fast,
Yes its built in functionality, you hit the esc key and its one of the menu options. Its there to stop convo requests being spammed during combat. I also use it when travelling though trade hubs to deal with the scam spam requests and beggars.
A lot of people in low sec and 0.0 have this turned on to stop the use of convo requests interfering with their activation of modules since eve changes focus to the convo box then you get the pop up.
As for CCP banning them, they done not want to ban individual accounts, they like to map out the full network and then take the lot out. Its harder for the isk farmers to rebuild this way. Look at unholy rage for details of the last big op CCP did.
Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.08.28 20:41:00 -
[21]
I think mining in general is macro and bot friendly because , well it's not very dynamic game play. Imagine if you had to shoot asteroids, break them in half to get to the minerals, something that required human intelligence to get the maximum yield.
Here is how I see it.
You locate an asteroid and scan it's composition. The scan reveals that there is veldspar located inside the rock, great!
Now for the extraction part, you fire a mining laser at the rock and begin to cut the rock with your laser. Cut too deep and you damage the veldspar, cut too shallow and you don't get as much yield. Also the rock is constantly spinning so you have to calibrate and orbit to keep up with the rock.
In other words the more activity you have to do while mining the less chance that a bot can actually be created.
Mining could be a lot more fun if you actually were required to inspect the rock and keep it from colliding with your ship while trying to stay as close as possible and orbit around it to get maximum yield.
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SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.12 16:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: cyndrogen I think mining in general is macro and bot friendly because , well it's not very dynamic game play. Imagine if you had to shoot asteroids, break them in half to get to the minerals, something that required human intelligence to get the maximum yield.
Here is how I see it.
You locate an asteroid and scan it's composition. The scan reveals that there is veldspar located inside the rock, great!
Now for the extraction part, you fire a mining laser at the rock and begin to cut the rock with your laser. Cut too deep and you damage the veldspar, cut too shallow and you don't get as much yield. Also the rock is constantly spinning so you have to calibrate and orbit to keep up with the rock.
In other words the more activity you have to do while mining the less chance that a bot can actually be created.
Mining could be a lot more fun if you actually were required to inspect the rock and keep it from colliding with your ship while trying to stay as close as possible and orbit around it to get maximum yield.
While I like this idea it may be a bit complex on the servers for such a thing. I also think that while mining may not be the most dynamic of tasks in EVE it is one of those ones that can be enjoyed dependent on how you play. Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!! |
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