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Jonas Land
Sanguine Hands Meet Your Creators
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
I suppose EVE is the gathering point for all people with ADD. The original post was talking about the initial damage bonus of the pirate ships just for having the skills to get in the ship and fly it around EVE. Forget the PvP, the skill based damage bonuses, effective hardpoints.....
The post was started to address the SOLE ISSUE of not having a pirate faction ship with a missle platform with 100-200% damage bonuses. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1668
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:I suppose EVE is the gathering point for all people with ADD. The original post was talking about the initial damage bonus of the pirate ships just for having the skills to get in the ship and fly it around EVE. Forget the PvP, the skill based damage bonuses, effective hardpoints.....
The post was started to address the SOLE ISSUE of not having a pirate faction ship with a missle platform with 100-200% damage bonuses.
So you're not actually complaining about the overall effectiveness of missile based PVP ships? You're just complaining that Eve isn't homogeneous enough?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jonas Land
Sanguine Hands Meet Your Creators
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Jonas Land wrote:I suppose EVE is the gathering point for all people with ADD. The original post was talking about the initial damage bonus of the pirate ships just for having the skills to get in the ship and fly it around EVE. Forget the PvP, the skill based damage bonuses, effective hardpoints.....
The post was started to address the SOLE ISSUE of not having a pirate faction ship with a missle platform with 100-200% damage bonuses. So you're not actually complaining about the overall effectiveness of missile based PVP ships? You're just complaining that Eve isn't homogeneous enough? -Liang
See? You are here for the purpose of arguing.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1668
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote: See? You are here for the purpose of arguing.
Please be specific. What you want seems to have changed repeatedly throughout the course of the thread. First you were saying that the lack of a HUGE DAMAGE BONUS gimps the ships and that you'd have to cross train to have an effective PVP ship. NOW you're claiming that it doesn't gimp the ship but you want one... just because?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
127
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:Basically.... The best thing i can do is completely retrain my toon to use guns...
Edited out the sarcastic part. And I'm not being sarcastic myself when I say: You say this like it's a bad thing.
If you think guns are better then why not train them? You liked the Dram because it was the best ship flying, then go train the best DPS platform and fly it. Imbalance can be overcome when every pilot can fly the same ships.
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Jonas Land
Sanguine Hands Meet Your Creators
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
But yes.... If you must argue... I am saying the game isnt 'homogeneous'. Since you feel the need for big words. |
Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
75
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Posted - 2012.07.26 18:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:CCP preaches fair play and balance... really not seeing it.
This is absolutely false. In fact they preach against it on a regular basis. You will not see a missle based frig doing enyo size dps. The enyo is a short range ship that is locked into its damage type.
You are too focused on a special bonus when it doesn't matter at all. Its about effective turrets/launcher not special ship bonus.
Also the hawk is currently the best AF in the game. Flown correctly it will spank most other frigs. Gain real pvp experience before attempting to debate the finer points. |
Jonas Land
Sanguine Hands Meet Your Creators
0
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Grog Drinker wrote:Jonas Land wrote:CCP preaches fair play and balance... really not seeing it. This is absolutely false. In fact they preach against it on a regular basis. You will not see a missle based frig doing enyo size dps. The enyo is a short range ship that is locked into its damage type. You are too focused on a special bonus when it doesn't matter at all. Its about effective turrets/launcher not special ship bonus. Also the hawk is currently the best AF in the game. Flown correctly it will spank most other frigs. Gain real pvp experience before attempting to debate the finer points.
Actually I fly a Hawk and do very well with it... but the original qustion was basically....... Why is there no longer a missle platform frigate with large damage bonuses? Why did they take it out.... What if i just don't want to use guns? There was a pirate missle boat, and they changed it.... WHY? |
Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
75
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
I would be surprised if the worm doesn't receive some form of damage buff in upcoming frigate balancing.
The "huge" damage bonuses really aren't all you make them out to be. A cruor with heat sink and its 100% bonus does barely over 200 dps. The succubus is under 250. The entire line of pirate frigates is in need of some work. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1668
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Grog Drinker wrote:I would be surprised if the worm doesn't receive some form of damage buff in upcoming frigate balancing.
The "huge" damage bonuses really aren't all you make them out to be. A cruor with heat sink and its 100% bonus does barely over 200 dps. The succubus is under 250. The entire line of pirate frigates is in need of some work.
I'd love to see the Succubus and Worm get some rebalancing.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Raukhur
Black Watch Guard
8
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:28:00 -
[41] - Quote
[quote=Liang Nuren.
If you're interested in solo PVP, why don't you swing by Amamake? :)
-Liang[/quote]
I actually did just that and got jumped by Liang and a couple more. Guess one needs to ask for 1v1 but being in amamake that's not worth much :-)
Not complaining at all, just saying that amamake might not be the best place for soloing. But will come have a look again
Cheers |
Alara IonStorm
2735
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote: OK.... maybe you missed the part of my post where I asked about the 100-200% damage bonuses on the frigates? show me a single missle platform with 100% damage bonuses..... anywhere in EVE.
Daredevil has a 200% Damage Bonus on 2 Turrets giving it 6 Effective Turrets.
Hookbill receives a 20% Dmg Bonus per Level adding up to 100% on 3 Launchers giving it 6 effective Launchers.
Now the Hawk has a 10% Dmg Bonus per Level adding up to 50% on 4 Launchers giving it 6 Effective Launchers... Then all those Launchers fire 25% faster. Find the Blaster Boat that can do that. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1669
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Posted - 2012.07.26 19:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
Raukhur wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
If you're interested in solo PVP, why don't you swing by Amamake? :)
-Liang
I actually did just that and got jumped by Liang and a couple more. Guess one needs to ask for 1v1 but being in amamake that's not worth much :-) Not complaining at all, just saying that amamake might not be the best place for soloing. But will come have a look again Cheers
That's a really neat trick considering I was eating Ethiopian food at lunch while you were allegedly jumped by me and more. But yes, if you don't ask for a 1v1 there's no reasonable reason to believe either party is looking for it. At any rate, I've never heard of Heretics not honoring an agreed upon 1v1. Certainly not "at night" (US TZ).
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
214
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Posted - 2012.07.26 20:52:00 -
[44] - Quote
Just a quick question, OP do you have someone to log you into the eve client every time you want to play? I'm just struggling to comprehend how you summon the mental agility to actually log in.
This thread is now about: Amamake
For the purposes of travel it is better to pretend the Ama-Osso gate does not exist. c/d?
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
1669
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Posted - 2012.07.26 20:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote: This thread is now about: Amamake
For the purposes of travel it is better to pretend the Ama-Osso gate does not exist. c/d?
In EU TZ/"mornings" that's definitely a no-go route. SeBo'd Legions + Orca support is a ***** to get even a frig through. At night it isn't so bad.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Jack Miton
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
408
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
There used to be one, then CCP ruined the Rattlesnake. |
SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
24
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
Too much of a wall of text cos of people arguing, so this may have been said by someone better looking than myself, if that is possible.
Apologies cos I stopped reading midway through page 1.
The op does have a point it could be argued that as no pirate faction actually deploys drones habitually (except spider drones in some missions/rogue drones themselves), that the rattlesnake/gila drone damage bonus does not in fact truly represent the traits of that faction (it is after all a guristas ship)
Would it not be more reflective of the guristas combat style to give these 2 ships missile or even (and this will upset people but I have to say it) ECM. By the way I would then argue Angel ships should have target painting/web bonuses, Sansha ships tracking disruption bonuses and Serpentis ships damp bonuses. Which would balance the fact that the Blood Raider BS does have a nos/neut bonus.
I am not really trying to debate turrets vs missiles as a general concern just asking whether people think a rattlesnake really does reflect a guristas ship? |
Korg Tronix
Time Bandits.
54
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Jonas Land wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Jonas Land wrote:OK.... maybe you missed the part... Where in many dev posts, and other places CCP stated (and has started with some T1 frigs) a bottom up rebalancing of all ships in the game. Seems to me that maybe just maybe they will be looking at pirate ships as well? Well... we can only hope... the best missle based frigate i have found is the Hawk ( just my preference, so please dont't take that as I'm trying to state a fact or anything like that)... and lets be honest... it doesn't stand a chance against a pirate ship with 200% damage bonuses. Sure it does. -Liang Ed: Also, why focus on the huge damage bonus with few launcher/turrets? Shouldn't you be looking at effective turrets/launchers? Some of those pirate frigates can do in excess of 500 dps... You can kill a battleship with them... how can a frigate doing 200 dps compete with that? If you take 2 pilots, maxed skills on their platform of choice... one in a Hawk, one in a Daredevil... the Hawk doesnt stand a chance. And since SOLO PvP is mainly going to be centered around frigates... Well? Where's the balance at?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14217815
This fight occurred before the AF buff and wasn't particularly close, I pvp in Missile frigs almost exclusively and will tell you that raw dps means jack **** in most of the fights.
Also as for the taking down BS in low dps frigates, I have killed and ransom a couple of hurricanes in a cheetah before, dps means nothing if the person is buffer tanked. Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] |
Korg Tronix
Time Bandits.
54
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:Ok... just so all the nit-pickers and perfectionists in the game are satisfied... I'll make it more clear...
There are no missle platform FRIGATES in the game with the damage bonuses of the Cruor, Daredevil, Dramiel, Succubus...
All platforms are covered EXCEPT missles ( and yes drones).
And yet minus the Daredevil I would confidently fight any of them in my standard Hookbill let alone my Hawks
Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] |
Korg Tronix
Time Bandits.
54
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Raukhur wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:
If you're interested in solo PVP, why don't you swing by Amamake? :)
-Liang
Stuff At any rate, I've never heard of Heretics not honoring an agreed upon 1v1. Certainly not "at night" (US TZ). -Liang
Certainly wasn't in the EU tz when I was a Heretic unless a lot has changed in the two weeks since i left Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams] |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
579
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Posted - 2012.07.26 21:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:Actually I fly a Hawk and do very well with it... but the original qustion was basically....... Why is there no longer a missle platform frigate with large damage bonuses? Why did they take it out.... What if i just don't want to use guns? There was a pirate missle boat, and they changed it.... WHY?
So you're complaining about a change to the Dramiel that happened three years ago and solidly put the Dram on top of the forum whine nerf list for most of the interceding time? That's just... I don't even know.
Look, you clearly want a missile-based pirate frigate. It's actually not a bad idea. I'd recommend you completely revamp your argument as to why one would be good, lay out how it fits into the current EVE environment, and post the idea in Features and Ideas. If you'd like it to get noticed, stay away from any arguments that involve "because I want one" either implicitly or explicitly. And certainly don't reference the fact that the Dramiel used to have missile slots or whine about having to train guns to fly an uber ship.
Oh, and has an historical lark, this is fun to re-read just to see how many people at the time were proclaiming the ruination of the Machariel. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
27
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Posted - 2012.07.26 22:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Judging by the first page I was the only one who didn't have the words "pirate battlship" censored in the OP. I'd like a missile pirate BS. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
309
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Posted - 2012.07.27 01:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jonas Land wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Jonas Land wrote: Some of those pirate frigates can do in excess of 500 dps... You can kill a battleship with them... how can a frigate doing 200 dps compete with that?
If you take 2 pilots, maxed skills on their platform of choice... one in a Hawk, one in a Daredevil... the Hawk doesnt stand a chance. And since SOLO PvP is mainly going to be centered around frigates... Well? Where's the balance at?
You are literally clueless about frig PVP. And really, PVP in general. A few comments: - A 500 DPS frigate is a paper tiger with almost no range. - I've seen a battleship downed by way less than 200 DPS. I saw a Sentinel do it once. :) - I'd say the most likely outcome of two competent pilots in a Hawk/Daredevil is a stalemate. The Daredevil isn't likely to kill the Hawk and the Hawk isn't likely to pin the Daredevil down because of the web bonus. - I'd say the most likely outcome of two competent pilots in a Hawk / Enyo is a dead Enyo. :) - Solo PVP happens in whatever ship you happen to be in. I've done solo PVP in everything from noob ships to carriers. If you're interested in solo PVP, why don't you swing by Amamake? :) -Liang You are nothing but a troll looking to argue. I would like to see your 500dps frigate fit plz
I could do with a laugh
There should be a rather awesome pic here |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
209
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Posted - 2012.07.27 02:39:00 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:If you take 2 pilots, maxed skills on their platform of choice... one in a Hawk, one in a Daredevil... the Hawk doesnt stand a chance.
From personal experience I can tell that hawk does stand a chance ... single anci fitted. |
Traejun DiSanctis
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.07.27 03:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Jonas Land wrote:la lot of players will agree that missle boats have been COMPLETELY overlooked in the PvP fields. RankShipsKills 1 Drake308916 2 Tengu115724 More than the top 10 turret ships combined. I don't see why you need a pirate one when there are the fleet typhoon, navy raven, navy scorpion, and golem
Fair point. But let's be complete in our examples. The Drake and the Tengu enjoy kill number like that for a lot reasons, none of which have to do with the fact that they are missile boats. Between the sheet number of Caldari players (a **** ton) and the excellence of those particular designed (perhaps a touch OP), the Tengu and Drake are simply popular designs, used in pretty much all areas of the game. From WH to Hi Sec to gangs and huge blobs/fleets, those hulls are everywhere.
The advantages and disadvantages of missiles are pretty well accepted. Excellent range and no straight misses are the strengths. Time to target and damage application on hit are the weaknesses.
That said, the point of the thread was simply that there is not a pirate faction missile boat with the same kinds of enormous damage bonuses that turret based pirate vessels have. This is an indisputable statement.
Golem is not a good example because all Marauders have similar bonuses such that less weapon hardpoints = more damage to make room for tractor/salvager. That's the kit of the Marauder class, not a missile- or turret-centric thing.
Navy faction ships are all generally designed the same - especially at the BS level. Smaller bonsues to damage and/or ROF such that damage is greater than the stock T1 version of said ships, but nowhere near the pure damage bonuses on pirate vessels.
That said, I do not think missiles are in bad shape. They have their value in both PvE and PvP. People who focus on missile training are in no way disadvantaged in any area of the game (except maybe incursions).
In sum, OP's apparent QQ about missiles is not well taken. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
4
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Posted - 2012.07.27 05:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Faction ships aren't supposed to be similar, they're supposed to reflect the traits of their respective factions.
Thats why Guristas pirate boats are drone boats. Because it reflects the use of drones by Guristas pirates.
Right?
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Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
103
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Posted - 2012.07.27 07:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
What the op doesn't seem to understand is that these ships with "HUGE" damage bonuses all have very few actual weapons. The picture changes quite a bit when you look not at the damage bonus, but the effective number of weapons created by that bonus. A ship with a 100% damage bonus and two weapons is still behind a ship with a 25% bonus and four weapons, in terms of damage output. Triple rep Myrms are like what you'd get if you strapped a beehive to Robocop. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
124
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Posted - 2012.07.27 08:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
again im going to ask if the OP has looked at the caldari navy hookbill
because the whole point of this thread (as pointless as it is) is a complaint that missile ships dont get the same huge bonuses as gun ships even though theyre just as effective . . . (I get it, seeing a +100% bonus looks cool)
but the base argument is wrong, at frigate level 5 the Caldari Navy Hookbill gives a +100% bonus to kinetic missile damage. |
Othran
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
220
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Posted - 2012.07.27 11:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'd love to see the Succubus and Worm get some rebalancing.
Damn right. I have a Succubus that's been in a hanger since Dominion came out. I'd quite like a reason to use it again. |
SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
25
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Posted - 2012.07.27 12:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
Sigras wrote:again im going to ask if the OP has looked at the caldari navy hookbill
because the whole point of this thread (as pointless as it is) is a complaint that missile ships dont get the same huge bonuses as gun ships even though theyre just as effective . . . (I get it, seeing a +100% bonus looks cool)
but the base argument is wrong, at frigate level 5 the Caldari Navy Hookbill gives a +100% bonus to kinetic missile damage.
Guess I am confused too, when did the hookbill become a pirate ship? |
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