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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.25 16:44:00 -
[1]
Basic idea is from the coastal defence and bombardment ships used in the second world war. A ship hull, poorly protected and not very manuoverable, which mounts the biggest gun that will fit on it.
Eve wise the basic idea is to have a battleship sized hull which is capable of mounting a single captial class hardpoint and nothing else, no smaller turrets and no drones. Give it a cpu and grid use reduction bonus to capital class turrets/launchers to allow it to fit the weapon but make sure it cant fit a very good tank and is not very manouverable. Siege module is an option but the stront consumption would need to be reduced to take into account the reduced ship size and the fact theres only one gun fitted.
Skill reqs would be similar to a dreadnought but without the jump drive skills, requiring racial BS 4 instead of 5 and not requiring the capital ships skill to be trained. Cost wise would put the basic hull cost at about 30-50% more than the Tier 3 battleships (200-250 mil or so). The intended role is similar to a dreadnought, anti capital ship and structure, but at a reduced cost for alliances that either cant afford a capital fleet or dont have enough skilled pilots.
Ability to mount capital class weaponary, thus giving potential high dps output vs slow or stationary targets, is balanced by poor tanking ability and low agility. Sensor strength should also be reduced compared to standard BS hulls for the race to give longer lock times.
Additional balancing may be required for the hull due to superior performance outside of siege mode for capital class weapons on a BS hull compared to equivilant weapons on a dreadnought hull.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.08.25 16:54:00 -
[2]
Honestly, I think you would be better off with standard battleships. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
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Posted - 2010.08.25 17:27:00 -
[3]
Some issues with your idea:
1. Capital weapons are terrible unless you fit a seige mod.
2. An alliance that can't afford a cap fleet doesn't deserve to be in any situations where they would need one.
3. A high DPS, low tank and high cost ship that has to be used in fleet fight situations where it is going to be primaried every time and won't be able to escape due to it's low manoeuvrability isn't the best idea.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.25 17:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ninetails o'Cat Some issues with your idea:
1. Capital weapons are terrible unless you fit a seige mod.
2. An alliance that can't afford a cap fleet doesn't deserve to be in any situations where they would need one.
3. A high DPS, low tank and high cost ship that has to be used in fleet fight situations where it is going to be primaried every time and won't be able to escape due to it's low manoeuvrability isn't the best idea.
1. Fair point, guess a siege mod would be needed after all. 2. I disagree but thats not an arguement that we need to have here 3. Fair point, perhaps an increase in tankability is needed, but at the cost of what?Perhaps some sort of boost to the tank when in siege mode might help?
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.08.25 18:05:00 -
[5]
Perhaps you could explain why a ship of this class is needed/useful and where it might be used?
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Zanzbar
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Posted - 2010.08.25 18:12:00 -
[6]
Considering that a full rack of large guns does the same damage as a single dread gun without seige this idea is pointless. Other the looking cool it would be far inferior to battleships as it couldent hit anything smaller then a battleship unless the enemy was siting still. Even if seige were added the drawbacks** and fuel costs iof the seige modual wouldmake anything less thena a dread a sitting duck.
** in case you didn't know - can't move, jump or warp - take way longer to lock - unlocks all targets upon activation - reduces tracking speed on guns and increases explosion radius on missles (smalller explosion radius is more accurate)
So yea you are a sitting duck for 10 min and the only ships your realy effective againt could kill you in a few vollys anyway.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.08.25 19:32:00 -
[7]
I had an idea similar to this but with a twist, instead of a siege module, I gave it all 8 capital turrets/launchers, but a -50% tracking penalty and no drone bay and thus it would be useless against anything smaller than a capital ship or a webbed and painted battleship.
The idea is that any three of a smaller class can take out the class directly above it, IE 3 frigates > 1 cruiser, 3 cruisers > 1 battle cruiser, 3 battle cruisers > 1 battleship but that's where the comparison stops ... 3 battleships >1 dreadnought? I don't know about that one ...
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RavenNyx
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Posted - 2010.08.25 23:59:00 -
[8]
I like the idea of a Monitor class BS. A dedicated, *real*, artillery platform for siege-ops.
Can fit one capital, long-range weapon (rail, arty, beam or cruise), can't target anything within 30 km, does 1/3 damage of a sieged dread, and can't move for 30 seconds after firing it's captital-class weapon (let it drift if it was moving when it fired), making it a sitting duck, unless you deal with possible dangers to the platform. Low number of slots (1/4/4 or something like that). Make range extremely far and cargo small, so that they have a limited amount of ammo (and make crystals burn out faster) and let them fill the role of the 200km sniper that can hit nothing but barns and quadruple webbed targets. Maybe even let them target the same way as bombers throw bombs - let it be a gun with a hull build around it. Makes it more difficult to coordinate fire on targets that are not completely stationary.
I think the idea have alot going for it.
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Draco Carollis
Amarr The Dead Canary Mining Corporation Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.08.26 03:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: RavenNyx I like the idea of a Monitor class BS. A dedicated, *real*, artillery platform for siege-ops.
Can fit one capital, long-range weapon (rail, arty, beam or cruise), can't target anything within 30 km, does 1/3 damage of a sieged dread, and can't move for 30 seconds after firing it's captital-class weapon (let it drift if it was moving when it fired), making it a sitting duck, unless you deal with possible dangers to the platform. Low number of slots (1/4/4 or something like that). Make range extremely far and cargo small, so that they have a limited amount of ammo (and make crystals burn out faster) and let them fill the role of the 200km sniper that can hit nothing but barns and quadruple webbed targets. Maybe even let them target the same way as bombers throw bombs - let it be a gun with a hull build around it. Makes it more difficult to coordinate fire on targets that are not completely stationary.
I think the idea have alot going for it.
NOTE: this is not a flame, I'm putting down my lessons learned. I like this idea, but it needs development.
I thought about a similar sort of thing a year or so ago, and took it to my corp mates in Eve University to try to nut it out. I ended up with a problem I didn't know how to solve - damage deliverability.
The original idea was to use a BC hull to create a "glass cannon" for siege work. 2 capital weapons on a BC hull - a T2 version of the tier 2 BCs for each race. I reasoned that a BC was better than a BS, because if you put the guns on a BS hull and gave the monitor more firepower than a T1 BS, then the BS monitor would be the next FOTM in fleet warfare. Using the BC hull made it more fragile and more of a tactical choice to use it.
However, the problem of damage kept coming up. If you look at the size comparisons of ships, the capital turrets are actually the same size as a BC. If you look at putting capital turrets on a BS, you can only phyisically fit 2 turrets at best on the hull. But, even those two turrets delivered a similar DPS to a standard battleship - so there was no point to using them.
That was as far as I got with the project. It kinda faded when I couldn't overcome the damage problem.
After reading this thread, the only way I can think to develop a monitor is to develop a brand new hull class. Make it slow, fragile, and mount a big gun. Effectively a cannon with an engine.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.26 10:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Solostrom Perhaps you could explain why a ship of this class is needed/useful and where it might be used?
I believe I already did but fair enough. The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull. Essentially a cheaper way to access capital class weaponary balanced by the fact its mounted on a slow and fragile hull.
Based on feedback so far I have to agree that fitting a siege module looks like it isnt the answer to the damage issues. Im hesitant just to give it a flat damage multiplier to capital weapons as that may well be too overpowered but it seems the only answer that might be practical.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.26 10:59:00 -
[11]
TL;DR: I want a dread in highsec, and I don't want to skill for it. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.26 11:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash TL;DR: I want a dread in highsec, and I don't want to skill for it.
TL:DR You're talking out of your intergalactic arse.
Aint pointless snark funny eh
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.26 11:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 26/08/2010 11:06:53
Originally by: Darek Castigatus The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull.
Either it has the DPS of a battleship, in which case it is useless; or it has the DPS of a dreadnaught, in which case it is overpowered. There is not enough ground in between to warrant a new ship class. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
RavenNyx
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Posted - 2010.08.26 22:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 26/08/2010 11:06:53
Originally by: Darek Castigatus The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull.
Either it has the DPS of a battleship, in which case it is useless; or it has the DPS of a dreadnaught, in which case it is overpowered. There is not enough ground in between to warrant a new ship class.
TL;DR - can't / don't want to see the possibilities in a new tactic, in a new tactical ship. It's not a BS, as it doesn't have the tracking to be of any use against a BS and no drones.
It's too thin to be put onto a POS-op (unless you have heavy logistics), and waaaay too thin to go against sup-cap fleets, unless it's (dis)advantage is considered in the fleet-composition.
A dread is a skill-intensive high-powered, highly amored/shielded lump that cynos in, shoots stuff and cynos out. Only tanked and maintained by themself. A BS is kind of agile and can even take on ships in classes below itself (CRs/BCs), and still have a good tank. Often powered by themself, or by a single or paired-up logi. How are of these two comparable to a paper-thin hull that can do alot of damage, far out, but can't sustain anything on it's own?
"Then it's useless". No. That *YOU* can't see possibilities in a ship like this, doesn't make it useless. I can certainly see this type of boats being a good anti mothership, anti small-gang dread support, anti small-gang carrier support, good anti siege weapons and so on... The possibilities are many, if you stop to consider what it f.ex. could actually mean for a 16 man large dread-fleet with carrier-support, to be dropped by 6 monitors with tag-team logis @ 200km. Now that would bring a healthy amount of paranoia to any smaller cap-engagement.
Again, tactiacal is key. Large scale conventional fighting would suck with it.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.08.27 03:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Darek Castigatus Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 26/08/2010 10:59:40
Originally by: Solostrom Perhaps you could explain why a ship of this class is needed/useful and where it might be used?
I believe I already did but fair enough. The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull. Essentially a cheaper way to access capital class weaponary balanced by the fact its mounted on a slow and fragile hull.
Indeed this is exactly the answer I expected.
There is a reason why it is referred to as high security space. There is also a reason why we can't bring capital ships there. Knocking your wartargets empire POSs down with a handful of dreads is not an allowed game mechanic. Even though I personally would enjoy shattering the zillions of crappy research POSs in the area surrounding Jita it is no doubt a good thing that I can't do it using a handful of dreads (or Monitor class BSs).
So sorry!
PS: No you didn't explain it.
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Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2010.08.27 11:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Solostrom
Originally by: Darek Castigatus Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 26/08/2010 10:59:40
Originally by: Solostrom Perhaps you could explain why a ship of this class is needed/useful and where it might be used?
I believe I already did but fair enough. The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull. Essentially a cheaper way to access capital class weaponary balanced by the fact its mounted on a slow and fragile hull.
Indeed this is exactly the answer I expected.
There is a reason why it is referred to as high security space. There is also a reason why we can't bring capital ships there. Knocking your wartargets empire POSs down with a handful of dreads is not an allowed game mechanic. Even though I personally would enjoy shattering the zillions of crappy research POSs in the area surrounding Jita it is no doubt a good thing that I can't do it using a handful of dreads (or Monitor class BSs).
So sorry!
PS: No you didn't explain it.
Thats fair enough i guess, would you support it if they didnt have the ability to go into high sec?
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php |
James Vayne
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Posted - 2010.08.27 16:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Darek Castigatus Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 27/08/2010 11:50:16
Originally by: Solostrom
Originally by: Darek Castigatus Edited by: Darek Castigatus on 26/08/2010 10:59:40
Originally by: Solostrom Perhaps you could explain why a ship of this class is needed/useful and where it might be used?
I believe I already did but fair enough. The intended role is similar to that of dreadnoughts, high damage vs capital class vessels and structures, but adding in the ability to be used in high security space plus reduced cost and skill requirements compared to a dreadnought hull. Essentially a cheaper way to access capital class weaponary balanced by the fact its mounted on a slow and fragile hull.
Indeed this is exactly the answer I expected.
There is a reason why it is referred to as high security space. There is also a reason why we can't bring capital ships there. Knocking your wartargets empire POSs down with a handful of dreads is not an allowed game mechanic. Even though I personally would enjoy shattering the zillions of crappy research POSs in the area surrounding Jita it is no doubt a good thing that I can't do it using a handful of dreads (or Monitor class BSs).
So sorry!
PS: No you didn't explain it.
Thats fair enough i guess, would you support it if they didnt have the ability to go into high sec, or if they didnt get their damage multiplier while in 0.5 or higher space (explain it ingame as CONCORD requiring they shut down their more powerful offensive systems before they let them in).
What I'm trying to establish here is if the concept is viable with enough tweaking or whether I should just give up and go back to trolling Cromo Effect in the Assembly Hall.
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Solostrom
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Posted - 2010.08.27 17:39:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Solostrom on 27/08/2010 17:40:47 My carefully thought out argument with supporting examples was struck by forum logon timer for ZOMG wrecking damage.
Short version: Back to trolling wuzzisname in Assembly hall
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