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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 15:58:00 -
[1]
Hi CCP. I recently started playing and would like to provide a little feedback about how my learning and playing experience has been thus far.
In no particular order:
After studying quite a few combinations I came to the realization that with the option to change your attributes the race / sub race you pick for your character has zero bearing on your training performance or even what type of ship you should fly. I'm currently using a Gallente pilot and I'm training to fly a Vagabond.
I currently have about 4 million skillpoints. I can fly a shield tanked Rupture fairly well. Minmatar have no focus when it comes to their upgrade paths, unlike the other races, so while I remain focused on the Vagabond, using ships like the Rupture with a Vagabond style fit isn't optimal, but I have to make do if I'm going to play the game while maintaining my focus on my goal ship.
Missions are really boring, but necessary: I can't get access to locator agents which I need for PVP any other way. I would like the ability to pay mission runners to gain permanent access to their locator agents, but that's not an option currently. If I had my way, I'd never run a single mission. Ever. They're too simplistic and easy.
I like that you can convert a trial account to a regular account by using a PLEX. I haven't used real life cash to pay for this game since the beginning. Allowing me to play by scamming other players and paying for my game time was the only thing that motivated me to activate my trial account. If I had to pay real life money, I wouldn't have.
Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
So far I haven't actually played "the real game" yet. I'm waiting until I can compete PVP wise with the older players and be a useful contribution to a gang with my Rupture and Vagabond. I have about 60 more days to go. I should be useful and reasonably competitive (T2 fit Vagabond with all support skils at 4 or 5) at about four months of total training time - 120 days.
I've yet to actually try the "real game" out yet, but I'll give feedback when that happens as well.
Thanks for reading.
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heheheh
Ecliptic Refuge
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:04:00 -
[2]
if i was you, i would try to experience some pvp before flying straight into it in that vagabond. Having the ships and required skills are one thing, knowing what to do with them is another.
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:13:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Stick Cult on 29/08/2010 16:12:59
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis After studying quite a few combinations I came to the realization that with the option to change your attributes the race / sub race you pick for your character has zero bearing on your training performance or even what type of ship you should fly. I'm currently using a Gallente pilot and I'm training to fly a Vagabond.
As intended. Race used to affect starter skills, though now you just get the training bonus. I like this personally, if I get bored of my Tengu, I can just skill up for something else.
Quote: I currently have about 4 million skillpoints. I can fly a shield tanked Rupture fairly well. Minmatar have no focus when it comes to their upgrade paths, unlike the other races, so while I remain focused on the Vagabond, using ships like the Rupture with a Vagabond style fit isn't optimal, but I have to make do if I'm going to play the game while maintaining my focus on my goal ship.
Minmatar have a few groups of ships that are similar, mostly seperated by armor and shield tanking. Some/most use mixed weapon systems, which can be a ***** to train...
Quote: Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
Evemon helped me a lot with this. I put in the things I want to train for, and it tells me the learning skills to train that actually decrease the total training time, including the time it take for the learning skills. Ya know, so they're actually useful. I agree though, learning skills should go... Also, good job on the scamming.
Quote: So far I haven't actually played "the real game" yet. I'm waiting until I can compete PVP wise with the older players and be a useful contribution to a gang with my Rupture and Vagabond. I have about 60 more days to go. I should be useful and reasonably competitive (T2 fit Vagabond with all support skils at 4 or 5) at about four months of total training time - 120 days.
Do NOT wait until you're in a vaga to start pvping. PvP in frigs and cruiser until then. They're much cheaper, you'll learn how to actually fly them (there is a certain amount of actual player skill, not just ingame skills) and how to lose a ship. Losing ships is an important skill... And how to get your pod out, which is quite nice... If you just start in Vagabonds, you'll constantly lose them and probably ragequit.
edit: Oh, and welcome to Eve!
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Scorpionidae
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:14:00 -
[4]
This is to add on to what heheheh said do some pvp befor the Vega and don't be using a Rupture use a Stabber as it is more like the Vega then the Rupture.
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: heheheh if i was you, i would try to experience some pvp before flying straight into it in that vagabond. Having the ships and required skills are one thing, knowing what to do with them is another.
I have. I tinkered around with two trial accounts before activating my third one. I am expert with the scanner- I can jump into a system and scan out most of the belts in less than 30 seconds provided I don't have to warp 100AU to the next clump of belts.
I've flown frigs and T1 cruisers in PVP with my trial accounts. Yes, I didn't have very much SP at the time but the mechanics are the same. I still don't have that much SP.
At any rate, I won't be "starting out" in a Vaga. It's not like I'm a WoW player or something. :)
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Minchurra
Caldari Feudum Chalybis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:23:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Minchurra on 29/08/2010 16:24:18
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
I have never understood this attitude of "i need to train learning skills first."
Hell I only took the base ones to four a couple of weeks ago, and I havent even noticed the difference.
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Minchurra Edited by: Minchurra on 29/08/2010 16:24:18
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
I have never understood this attitude of "i need to train learning skills first."
Hell I only took the base ones to four a couple of weeks ago, and I havent even noticed the difference.
I guess you're just not as smart/organized/competitive as a lot of other players out there. Once I did the math in EveMON and could see the differences that implants and learning skills can make it was clear to me that they would provide a massive advantage in the immediate short term, much less the long game.
The difference for me personally with only a 4 month training plan was almost 25% faster training overall when coupled with implants and attribute reassignment. That's four weeks!
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis
Originally by: Minchurra Edited by: Minchurra on 29/08/2010 16:24:18
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
I have never understood this attitude of "i need to train learning skills first."
Hell I only took the base ones to four a couple of weeks ago, and I havent even noticed the difference.
I guess you're just not as smart/organized/competitive as a lot of other players out there. Once I did the math in EveMON and could see the differences that implants and learning skills can make it was clear to me that they would provide a massive advantage in the immediate short term, much less the long game.
The difference for me personally with only a 4 month training plan was almost 25% faster training overall when coupled with implants and attribute reassignment. That's four weeks!
So you spent 3 weeks to cut off 4 weeks? That I can understand.. and I do it. The "I'm going to train all my learning skills to 4 first before I do ~anything else~" attitude seems kind of stupid to me.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
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Corozan Aspinall
Party Time Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:47:00 -
[9]
I used my 1.6m sp x 2 booster to train learning rank 1 & 2 to lv 3. I then played the game a lot. Around 10m sp I trained them all to lv 4. I then benefited from faster training on longer skills and played the game a lot. Around 25m sp I trained them all to level 5 progressively, usually one every 2-3 months. I now benefit from considerably faster training in conjunction with implants.
The ONLY issue I have with removing learning skills is that I and others who are/have been disciplined and toughed it out to lv 5 and consequently enjoy the rewards of our A|FK patronage of CCP, would get screwed if the skill points were simply re-embursed and everyone was given 1 additional remap etc.
Learning skills like all skills train at different rates depending on your remap/stats. Just giving back to skill points doesn't begin to fairly compensate people for all the hours they put in training at 1700 sp/hr or whatever which they could have put in to other skills they had min/maxed attributes for more immediate benefit. Nor all the lost hrs from having sub optimal remaps to work around learning gaps/gains etc. Nor the isk sunk into the skill books. Or the isk lost spent largely not training gameplay aiding skills but sitting around doing not much for 90 days or so to level 5.
IMHO there just isnt a fair way to remove learning and, even though I still think it should be done, I can't see how CCP can fathom it so people don't lose out big time. *shrug
Most of the other stuff I agree with the op. And yeah, learning to learn to play the game serves no purpose whatsoever other than to milk your bank balance and put off new players ..
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 16:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Stick Cult
So you spent 3 weeks to cut off 4 weeks? That I can understand.. and I do it. The "I'm going to train all my learning skills to 4 first before I do ~anything else~" attitude seems kind of stupid to me.
It's stupid that players feel compelled to train them at all due to loss of performance while training skills. But I digress.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.08.29 17:40:00 -
[11]
Im one of those players who maxed out learning and cybernetics asap. It cut down most of my rank 1 skills to 3 days to lvl 5 each. Most other players I meet says thier rank ones average a week each. So with that understanding it would take me about 2 years training rank 1 skills only to recoupe the lost time and start shooting ahead. Then again high ranked skills probably got impacted alot more than that. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 24FEB10
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.29 17:47:00 -
[12]
"Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. "
Why did you feel that you were obliged to spend your first 3 weeks training nothing but learning skills instead of eg: interspersing them with other skills? Did someone advise you to do this, or was it a decision you made on your own? Signed, Pheusia |
Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pheusia "Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. "
Why did you feel that you were obliged to spend your first 3 weeks training nothing but learning skills instead of eg: interspersing them with other skills? Did someone advise you to do this, or was it a decision you made on your own?
I decided to do this on my own, as it's most efficient to do it that way. Yes, I could have trained some some basic skills to 2-3 but my character still wouldn't perform well enough to do anything much other than tackle or run some L1/L2 missions (which I refuse to do).
I'm content to wait until I have a ship and fitting that I know is competitive. I know that my personal skills are up to snuff PVP wise, I simply lack the flexibility and capability that a T2 fit T2 ship will provide me.
Case in point: Barrage- ACs have a fairly short operational range, but once you unlock T2 guns and are able to use Barrage then Minmatar ships can perform reasonably well at range which allows them to use their speed to dictate distance.
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trite boon
Caldari Pastry Productions Inc. Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:45:00 -
[14]
This is about learning skills.
1/10
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Ryhss
Caldari Ominous Corp Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: heheheh if i was you, i would try to experience some pvp before flying straight into it in that vagabond. Having the ships and required skills are one thing, knowing what to do with them is another.
This.
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King Gore
The Church of Sentcha
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: trite boon This is about learning skills.
1/10
I'd bump it to 2/10 for this reason.
An uppity new player who did his 'research'.
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Malen Nenokal
Oedipus Complex
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:55:00 -
[17]
Just plug a short term training plan in for anything and EveMon will suggest a couple of learning skills at a time to lessen the time. It saves that frustration of training them all at once, and it's pretty darn efficient. But you already trained them so whatever.
You seem to have a good attitude towards all this, welcome to Eve.
(And yeah, this thread is now officially derailed to be about learning skills.)
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Pheusia
Gallente The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.29 18:58:00 -
[18]
Compare the number of non-learning skillpoints gained after 4 months from these two plans
(1) Spend 3 weeks training nothing but learning skills
(2) Spend 6 weeks training learning skills 50% of the time
In terms of non-learning SP, Plan 2 will be (literally) infinitely superior for the first 3 weeks, and then significantly superior for quite a while after that (If you trained your Learnings to 5+4, then you'll be at a non-learning SP advantage for about a year). Given that the fewer skills you have, the greater the advantage you get from increasing them, I'd say that your "more efficient" plan was actually significantly less effective. You with Plan (1) will eventually end up with a very small long term advantage in total SP (maybe a few tens of thousands of SP), but someone going with Plan (2) will get a huge head start in ISK, experience, game knowledge, contacts, all of which are at least as important as skillpoints in achieving goals.
In short, SP are great to have, but you dont get anything from the raw total, they're only of any value insofar as you can apply them to actually doing things. By following plan (1) you have significantly reduced the utility value of the skillpoints you have trained. The "efficiency" advantage of Plan (1) is therefore basically worthless - by the time you have more non-learning skills than the plan (2) guy, the gain will be worthless compared to the absolute number you both have.
Signed, Pheusia |
Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 19:16:00 -
[19]
Originally by: trite boon This is about learning skills.
1/10
Not really. It's just the only thing anyone picked to talk about. To me it's the least interesting part of Eve. I'd rather discuss something else.
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 19:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Scorpionidae This is to add on to what heheheh said do some pvp befor the Vega and don't be using a Rupture use a Stabber as it is more like the Vega then the Rupture.
I have to say, this is a very good point. Thanks for the advice!
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.29 19:57:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Doddy on 29/08/2010 19:58:13
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis
Originally by: Minchurra Edited by: Minchurra on 29/08/2010 16:24:18
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis Learning skills: I have about 4 million SP, about 1.1 million of that is learning skills. It took me over three weeks to complete them, and this is in addition to training Cybernetics so that I could use +3 implants while doing so to improve my training speed of the learning skills even further.
Three weeks is a big deal to me when my character is essentially useless while I complete these skills, regardless of the fact that I get increased training speed initially. Someone told me that I was lucky that I didn't have to train all the basic learning skills to 5 like the older players did. I would have to agree. So all I did for almost the first month of my game was scam other players in order to make ISK.
I have never understood this attitude of "i need to train learning skills first."
Hell I only took the base ones to four a couple of weeks ago, and I havent even noticed the difference.
I guess you're just not as smart/organized/competitive as a lot of other players out there. Once I did the math in EveMON and could see the differences that implants and learning skills can make it was clear to me that they would provide a massive advantage in the immediate short term, much less the long game.
The difference for me personally with only a 4 month training plan was almost 25% faster training overall when coupled with implants and attribute reassignment. That's four weeks!
Far too many new players do this, the whole "I will not have any useful skills for months so i can save 25% of training time from that point on" thinking is why so many people quit, they can't actually do anything fun cos they have no skills. If they manage to stick it out through that then they spend ages training for some particular ship or proffession they have e-fitted and eve-moned. Half of them then find out they don't actually want to do that proffession or fly that ship and they now have a char that is not much use to them 6months on. Its really dense, certainly not "smart/organized/competitive" almost as bad as "I don't have enough SP to pvp" thinking.
In reality people should be spending their first couple of months in eve training basic skills and trying out the many facets of the game before maxing learning and focussing on a speciality.
As an aside why would you use a rupture as a vagabond and not a stabber?
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.29 20:12:00 -
[22]
Also why do you need locator agents for pvp?, why do you need 60 days+ to give "a useful contribution" in a rupture? if you need to scam just to fund gtcs how are you going to fund all the vagas you will lose? (and you will lose alot if you are as committed to pvp as you imply). Finally scamming, mission grinding and moaning on the forums is pretty much 90% of "the real game", but then you know that already.
TLDR 1/10 troll
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 20:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Doddy Also why do you need locator agents for pvp?, why do you need 60 days+ to give "a useful contribution" in a rupture? if you need to scam just to fund gtcs how are you going to fund all the vagas you will lose? (and you will lose alot if you are as committed to pvp as you imply). Finally scamming, mission grinding and moaning on the forums is pretty much 90% of "the real game", but then you know that already.
TLDR 1/10 troll
Locater agents are the only way to find where players currently are, is that not correct? How else am I going to know where some one is in order to kill them?
As mentioned earlier, I agree that it's a good idea to use Stabbers instead of Ruptures, as they will fly more similarly to Vagabonds.
As for funding Vagabonds, well, the last time I checked I could purchase one and fit it for about $150-160m ISK. I made about 3 billion ISK scamming in the first two weeks of my trial account. I think I could pretty much lose a Vagabond a day for about a month before I start to run into ISK issues. Not that I plan to.
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Omal Oma
Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.08.29 20:42:00 -
[24]
When you start the game, you get 1.6 mil SP at 100% learning speed.
What better way to spend it than learning skills? Its understandable why new subs don't stick around long... when that 1.6 is done and some vet tells them that someday they'll have 50 day long skills... I wouldn't wanna hang out either knowing that, as a new player... I shoulda spent my first 1.6 mil SP not playing EVE at all. ________________________________________________ <--- My in-game me. |
Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.29 20:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis
Locater agents are the only way to find where players currently are, is that not correct? How else am I going to know where some one is in order to kill them?
Why would you be killing a specific person? you going to rp some sort of contract killer or you going to try ccps laughably broken bounty system? Even if you want to join some merc or gankbear corp who might need a locator agent, it is hardly a requirement (you only need one at any given time in any given gang after all). 90% of pvpers in eve never use a locator agent and some probably don't even know they exist. Personally i have only ever used one for tracking hi sec gank targets and you certainly wont be doing that in a vagabond
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 20:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis
Locater agents are the only way to find where players currently are, is that not correct? How else am I going to know where some one is in order to kill them?
Why would you be killing a specific person? you going to rp some sort of contract killer or you going to try ccps laughably broken bounty system? Even if you want to join some merc or gankbear corp who might need a locator agent, it is hardly a requirement (you only need one at any given time in any given gang after all). 90% of pvpers in eve never use a locator agent and some probably don't even know they exist. Personally i have only ever used one for tracking hi sec gank targets and you certainly wont be doing that in a vagabond
How else will you find war targets when they run and hide? And no, I don't have any illusions about using locater agents and flying along in my Vagabond at the same time.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.08.29 22:02:00 -
[27]
Chat channel: locates are us. 1 mil isk for one locate.
Player solutions > CCP solutions. Next time you war-dec someone, it also pays to figure out where they base their operations out of before you scare them off.
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.08.29 22:14:00 -
[28]
lolwars 99% of the time if they run and hide they stay docked up, I wouldn't really worry about that part
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Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2010.08.29 22:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Chat channel: locates are us. 1 mil isk for one locate.
Player solutions > CCP solutions. Next time you war-dec someone, it also pays to figure out where they base their operations out of before you scare them off.
Thanks for the advice! And I generally get as much intel on a target as possible before engaging them hehe. Knowing their movement patterns, areas of operation and time of day when they're active is Hunting 101 as far as I'm concerned.
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Johan Sabbat
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.29 23:35:00 -
[30]
You say you are paying for the game through plex at such a young age, so isk doesn't appear to be a massive issue.
Have you not thought that you could escape the training grind by just buying a character ?
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