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Azura Nester
Caldari The Foreign Legion Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 09:44:00 -
[181]
obvious troll is obvious.
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Masjheira
Minmatar Cursed Inc. Cursed Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.22 09:47:00 -
[182]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
You call the NC "unskilled". What you are talking about is skill in PVP and really nothing else. There seem to be those that think this should be the ONLY qualification for success in EVE. In just about any other game they would be correct. But what they are missing is that the REAL game of EVE doesn't happen on a CCP server someplace. The real game happens in the background on countless jabber and IRC sessions. It happens in TS and Vent between entities who each have their own goals and ideals, who can put aside differences to work together towards a shared end. The NC has shown amazing skill in diplomacy, logistics and leadership. Skill in PVP.... that isn't even on the same level. Those are real life, srs bsns skills that take talent, time and effort to master. Being good at PVP is just being good at a video game.
At least I see some kind of smart answer to the thread. Though, Mister Pseudonym, I think you're wrong about something important: Eve must remain a game, and lots of people playing Eve to enjoy its adrenaline rush during pvp encounters hate the way some other guys play Eve. Because they were lacking fun pvping (some troll would say it's because they were definitly unskilled), then they figured out that using "diplomacy" and "talent" as you call them, would in some way compensate their lack of fun. I think we quite figured out that by now, but let me tell you that doesn't change the way I think, the way many think: these kind of tactics in Eve might kill the fun of the game in fine. Having Eve to be a mirror of reality is not a goal we should aim for. We don't need supra-diplomats uniting huge alliance, proving their "speechcraft" skills. We need to grab a ship, charge a fleet, no matter its size, and ENJOY the ****ing game. Imo.
So final point: I don't think most people want to "make a difference in the grand scheme of things". I think that's an american way of thinking, "I WANNA CONTROL EVERYTHING". Most of the people I know and I've known over the years just wanna have their daily adrenaline rush, improve their personnal skills in pvp, and form up with friends.
Regards
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Murauke
Caldari EvE Rookie Collective EvE Rookie Collective Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.22 09:51:00 -
[183]
Confused.com = wasn't there a Kitchen Sink Campaign that started ummmm around about this time last year and ended ummmm about 4 months from now with the Kitchen in the sink and the North drinking champaign?
For what its worth numbers are not the winning factor when it comes to battles its about tactics and making use of your numbers. GTFO of COAD!
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.22 10:12:00 -
[184]
Posting from the winning team and reminding OP that this is a sandbox where people don't want to play YOUR game.
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Garreth Vlox
Minmatar Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 10:27:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Facepalm Kitchen Sink Coalition of Max 2 had more.
interesting how the op keeps ignoring that fact isnt it?
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ps3ud0nym
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.22 11:12:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Masjheira
At least I see some kind of smart answer to the thread. Though, Mister Pseudonym, I think you're wrong about something important: Eve must remain a game, and lots of people playing Eve to enjoy its adrenaline rush during pvp encounters hate the way some other guys play Eve. Because they were lacking fun pvping (some troll would say it's because they were definitly unskilled), then they figured out that using "diplomacy" and "talent" as you call them, would in some way compensate their lack of fun. I think we quite figured out that by now, but let me tell you that doesn't change the way I think, the way many think: these kind of tactics in Eve might kill the fun of the game in fine. Having Eve to be a mirror of reality is not a goal we should aim for. We don't need supra-diplomats uniting huge alliance, proving their "speechcraft" skills. We need to grab a ship, charge a fleet, no matter its size, and ENJOY the ****ing game. Imo.
So final point: I don't think most people want to "make a difference in the grand scheme of things". I think that's an american way of thinking, "I WANNA CONTROL EVERYTHING". Most of the people I know and I've known over the years just wanna have their daily adrenaline rush, improve their personnal skills in pvp, and form up with friends.
Regards
I think you are very right. The average player just wants to get into a ship and go and get his PVP rocks off. I can certainly appreciate that, I am that kind of player. I love the adrenaline rush that PVP in EVE brings to me, but I also love the feeling that although I am but a small part, I am taking part in events that are much larger than the encounter I just had.
EVE is a sandbox, and in many ways because of that and the way the game is designed, it has to mirror reality to some extent. It is where it can't that it makes things interesting. In the real world, most of us are looking for peace. In peace time we can live our lives, raise our children and work to make our world a better place. But in EVE, boredom and frustration are two of the biggest challenges that any leader must face. If there is no "action" their members will either quit the alliance for greener pasture, or simply stop logging on unless there is something to do. Both of these are death to an alliance in EVE. It isn't the mechanics that drive this, it is human nature. We play EVE to be entertained and, lets face it, PVE in EVE is about as interesting as watching paint dry.
It takes both kinds of players and play to make this work. Without the large power blocs, that feeling of huge movements and the clash of great powers would be missing. They provide the "story" and the reason to fight in the first place. I don't see how it "kills the fun", for me it is what makes it fun!
Right now the NC is ascendant, it remains to be seen if they can remain so. If history in EVE is any indicator, such ascendancy tends to be transient. Sooner or later a power will rise that will challenge the NC or, having grown too large for easy management, it will fracture as the goals and ideals of the various components diverge until they are incompatible. If we want to be honest, you can already see the outlines of that division. With no real external threat, those divisions will grow larger and larger over time.
Because of the conflicting needs of the memberships to have both safety and entertaining PVP, stability is going to be only ever a temporary situation. This dichotomy forces alliances to expand ever outward. The larger they expand, the more difficult it is to keep control. The more powerful they become, the more the rest of the population resents them. The issue right now is that because of history and personality, there is a leadership vacuum in the south that prevents a challenger from arising. Is that the fault of the NC? No, it is the egos in leadership who are unable to work together and present that challenge.
Things will eventually change.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.22 14:42:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Musical Fist
Originally by: zombu2 Lemme be the first to say
eh
Sorry renters but NC has a fatter arse than you
LMFAO this alone deserves 10/10
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 14:56:00 -
[188]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
Because of the conflicting needs of the memberships to have both safety and entertaining PVP, stability is going to be only ever a temporary situation. This dichotomy forces alliances to expand ever outward. The larger they expand, the more difficult it is to keep control. The more powerful they become, the more the rest of the population resents them. The issue right now is that because of history and personality, there is a leadership vacuum in the south that prevents a challenger from arising. Is that the fault of the NC? No, it is the egos in leadership who are unable to work together and present that challenge.
Things will eventually change.
So whatcha saying is "All the fun in this game, is in the South".
Hoppit!
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Teh Ashen
Minmatar 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry Kugutsumen.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:13:00 -
[189]
holy bitter thread necro batman
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ps3ud0nym
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.22 20:38:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
Because of the conflicting needs of the memberships to have both safety and entertaining PVP, stability is going to be only ever a temporary situation. This dichotomy forces alliances to expand ever outward. The larger they expand, the more difficult it is to keep control. The more powerful they become, the more the rest of the population resents them. The issue right now is that because of history and personality, there is a leadership vacuum in the south that prevents a challenger from arising. Is that the fault of the NC? No, it is the egos in leadership who are unable to work together and present that challenge.
Things will eventually change.
So whatcha saying is "All the fun in this game, is in the South".
I am having a blast! From my perspective it seems like the south is full of people who ***** and complain but don't have the organizational skills to actually do anything BUT ***** and complain.
From CAOD and other sources, it sounds like the south is a terrible place to be. Full of ego and hurf burf, unfriendly to new players and generally unpleasant to be around. I love TEST and the north has been awesome to us. Everyone said we wouldn't last 3 months and that "Newbies are useless in PVP", well.. we are still here and are stronger than ever. Our newbies are the life blood of the Alliance. They remind the bittervets why they log in. Newbies are still blown away by this game and are willing to throw ship after ship at the enemy just to blow up hilariously. I would much rather be involved in an organization like that, then one who is full of elitist jerks fapping to their SP totals like it means something.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.22 20:51:00 -
[191]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
Originally by: Spurty
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
Because of the conflicting needs of the memberships to have both safety and entertaining PVP, stability is going to be only ever a temporary situation. This dichotomy forces alliances to expand ever outward. The larger they expand, the more difficult it is to keep control. The more powerful they become, the more the rest of the population resents them. The issue right now is that because of history and personality, there is a leadership vacuum in the south that prevents a challenger from arising. Is that the fault of the NC? No, it is the egos in leadership who are unable to work together and present that challenge.
Things will eventually change.
So whatcha saying is "All the fun in this game, is in the South".
I am having a blast! From my perspective it seems like the south is full of people who ***** and complain but don't have the organizational skills to actually do anything BUT ***** and complain.
From CAOD and other sources, it sounds like the south is a terrible place to be. Full of ego and hurf burf, unfriendly to new players and generally unpleasant to be around. I love TEST and the north has been awesome to us. Everyone said we wouldn't last 3 months and that "Newbies are useless in PVP", well.. we are still here and are stronger than ever. Our newbies are the life blood of the Alliance. They remind the bittervets why they log in. Newbies are still blown away by this game and are willing to throw ship after ship at the enemy just to blow up hilariously. I would much rather be involved in an organization like that, then one who is full of elitist jerks fapping to their SP totals like it means something.
You know the south say the same thing about the north right? Theres even a live thread where MV members are gloating saying they are the best, it says alot about your coalition and what your members are told to believe when you ignore your own coalitions faults. :P
Truth vs truth, who is really telling the truth when all sides lie, complain and manipulate, except the Russians yeh? because they are all macro mining rmt right, right?
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ps3ud0nym
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:11:00 -
[192]
Quote:
You know the south say the same thing about the north right? Theres even a live thread where MV members are gloating saying they are the best, it says alot about your coalition and what your members are told to believe when you ignore your own coalitions faults. :P
Truth vs truth, who is really telling the truth when all sides lie, complain and manipulate, except the Russians yeh? because they are all macro mining rmt right, right?
I don't know about the propaganda. Dreddit was formed and it was only by mistake that we were anywhere near goons. We tried to be as far from them as possible. They hot dropped us and then made friends and have been, in every way, helpful and supportive. Compared to the rest of EVE, who continually war-deced us because they figured we were easy kills and mocked us because we were mostly new players, goons have been positivity gentlemanly. It is only understandable after that first start and their willing and eager help that we would align ourselves with them.
The reality is that had an entity in the south done the same, we could have been sitting there helping attack and defend. Goons were quick to see that a new power was forming and take advantage of it while the rest of EVE was still all hurf burf about how newbies can't do anything and are useless etc. We are now the third largest alliance in the game. It is yet another opportunity that the South missed due to lack of foresight.
The NC has been the same. They let us chill on their couch and gave us a chance to grow strong enough to actually BE a power in EVE. Without the support of our friends, TEST wouldn't be possible. Through all of this, we certainly didn't see or hear a thing from the south except derisive laughter.
TEST is one of the only alliances in 0.0 that will happily take a day 1 newbie and train them to fight and live in 0.0. We know that our newbies in hero tackle will soon be flying drakes, and then HACs and so on. We are willing to put the time and investment into them because we know it will be worth it. By the time they hit 10M SP, they all know how to fit a ship, how to watch local and give intel correctly. What entity in the south has that attitude?
We are well aware of our faults, but they are far outweighed by our attitude and the fun we derive from each other and the game. This isn't "we are the best" BS, it is a truly different culture that it has been an honor to be involved with. Perhaps there is an entity in the south that is the same, if so, I would love someone to point them out to me.
As for the Russians... I have no idea what happens over there. From our Russian bros in goons, it seem that the only thing the Russians really hate is, other Russians. The politics on that side is somewhat of a murky situation to me because of the language barrier. Again, from the info I have received, they seem to be a totally different animal to the rest of EVE yet again.
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Ichera
Caldari Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:25:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Ichera on 22/11/2010 21:25:52
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
TEST is one of the only alliances in 0.0 that will happily take a day 1 newbie and train them to fight and live in 0.0. We know that our newbies in hero tackle will soon be flying drakes, and then HACs and so on. We are willing to put the time and investment into them because we know it will be worth it. By the time they hit 10M SP, they all know how to fit a ship, how to watch local and give intel correctly. What entity in the south has that attitude?
We are well aware of our faults, but they are far outweighed by our attitude and the fun we derive from each other and the game. This isn't "we are the best" BS, it is a truly different culture that it has been an honor to be involved with. Perhaps there is an entity in the south that is the same, if so, I would love someone to point them out to me.
And this is why Test receives +1 interwebs. Anyone willing to train newer players to not be crap, and enjoy the game at the same time deserves what they recieved. Go go my TESTie brethren
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.22 22:15:00 -
[194]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym snip
While that is all nice, my point was that your comments on the south were limited to what you have been told, how exactly would a new player have any knowledge on the south being 'elitest ***s' without someone feeding them with this info. Not to mention NC are known to manipulate and use propaganda so things work in their favour.
People wouldnt join an alliance unless it had something to offer, you cant limit 0.0 to "north being great and south being bad" because people in any alliance most likely have nothing but good comments to say about their current alliance and im sure each alliance is unique in the way it teaches.
I think all alliances need to accept they are very similar to each other and that this IS a game, people should be out fighting not comparing ***** sizes on COD
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ps3ud0nym
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.22 23:18:00 -
[195]
Edited by: ps3ud0nym on 22/11/2010 23:21:31
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Originally by: ps3ud0nym snip
While that is all nice, my point was that your comments on the south were limited to what you have been told, how exactly would a new player have any knowledge on the south being 'elitest ***s' without someone feeding them with this info. Not to mention NC are known to manipulate and use propaganda so things work in their favour.
People wouldnt join an alliance unless it had something to offer, you cant limit 0.0 to "north being great and south being bad" because people in any alliance most likely have nothing but good comments to say about their current alliance and im sure each alliance is unique in the way it teaches.
I think all alliances need to accept they are very similar to each other and that this IS a game, people should be out fighting not comparing ***** sizes on COD
"New" is a relative term. While I am a new SUB, I am not a new player. The reason for all the numbers in my name is that I have used up all the other versions. I have been playing EVE since the closed beta and have kept up with it quite closely since then. My information doesn't come from propaganda, and it is a mistake to think that there really is any directed this way. My information comes from people who are in the south. It comes from our members who were once part of those blocs and the various posts here, on Kug_u and Scrapheap.
The culture that developed, first with BoB and in the south in general smacks of imperialism to me. It seems to be populated with cults of personality which isn't a stable system of organization. The fall of Atlas is an excellent example. Take away the central ego and the entire structure collapses.
It isn't just the cults of personality. The entire system of "renters" is distasteful in the extreme to me. It is elitist and paternalistic. The North really is quite different in this regard. It really is a bunch of divergent entities who have banded together to further shared goals. That, to me, is really what EVE is all about. That is why we have corps and alliances. When that system is used to consolidate power in the hands of a few, with benefits primarily flowing to the large parent alliance it seems to me to be a perversion. All alliances are not similar in the same way that all systems of government aren't similar. We are talking really about the difference between republics and monarchies and dictatorships.
This thread started out as a epeen measuring contest, but I would really like to discuss the fundimental difference between the alliances in the south and in the north from the perspective of the different camps. Saying that they are all basically the same is no different than chest beating and saying "We are the best and you suck". I am sure that some find the method of government of the south to be preferable. Such governments and organization have always valued the strength of the individual over the strength of the group. It is analogous to the knights of medieval times. Or even closer, to the relationship between the Spartans and the Helots in ancient Greece. In such a structure a strong warrior (high SP and good at PVP) gives one status and power. In a republic honors go to those who can organize the group towards the shared goal, regardless of their own prowess in battle. Kato was undoubtedly an inferior warrior to Hannibal, but in the end it was Kato who brought down Carthage.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.23 00:08:00 -
[196]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
My information comes from people who are in the south. It comes from our members who were once part of those blocs and the various posts here, on Kug_u and Scrapheap.
Unless a person experiences something direct they cant comment on it, believing what is on shc & kugu wont get you or anyone far and yes this is propaganda / hearsay.
It is like believing something because the media says so, in eve it is worse because it is mainly the north who puts so much effort in internet spaceship propaganda.
This thread is a clear example, if nc get negative comments which btw arent really inaccurate imo theres a stampede of people defending, any typical south thread gets the usually general windy & metal dude replying, people who are quick to defend are usually people who are threatened by a comment.
I still stand by all coalitions, alliances and whatever being so similar and being in any one of them will benefit a player.
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ps3ud0nym
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.23 01:06:00 -
[197]
Edited by: ps3ud0nym on 23/11/2010 01:09:00
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Unless a person experiences something direct they cant comment on it, believing what is on shc & kugu wont get you or anyone far and yes this is propaganda / hearsay.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen anyone make. I certainly didn't "experience" the Roman Empire or the fall of Carthage, but that doesn't stop me and anyone else from learning from the experience of others. In fact, I would go as far as to say that "personal experience" tends to cloud the issue as you are far to close to matter to make an objective determination. It requires a step BACK to look at something objectively and an outside observer can often see issues and problems hidden to those who are personally involved. If you refuse to learn from the experiences of others because of your belief that you must have "personal experience", you are bound to make the same mistakes. As George Santayana said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.".
Originally by: Kalle Demos
It is like believing something because the media says so, in eve it is worse because it is mainly the north who puts so much effort in internet spaceship propaganda.
I am wondering if the modern media environment has completely clouded your thinking. You are confusing editorializing with "news". That being said, yes... the north is FAR better at propaganda than the south. It is a tried and true method of force multiplication. It boosts your moral and saps the enemy's willingness to fight. It is an extremely valid and effective tactic.
Originally by: Kalle Demos
This thread is a clear example, if nc get negative comments which btw arent really inaccurate imo theres a stampede of people defending, any typical south thread gets the usually general windy & metal dude replying, people who are quick to defend are usually people who are threatened by a comment.
I still stand by all coalitions, alliances and whatever being so similar and being in any one of them will benefit a player.
Look at those responses objectively. This is a topic that seems to pop up repeatedly. Of course the responses of the north are to defend their ideals. What do you expect? The accusations thrown around by the posters from the south are generally not constructive and extreme antagonistic. A defensive response is exactly what they are trying to provoke, so why would it be a surprise when NC members defend themselves? It is like being punched in the face and having the other guy act surprised when you hit him back. Did you expect NC members to agree with you? That is just delusion. Your derision of those defending an organization that is obviously of great value to them is a straw-man argument of egregious proportions.
Again, you say the criticisms are accurate, and others go even further to say that they are the reasons for the success of the NC. However, those criticisms can also be leveled at the entities in the south, even more so, and they are unable to succeed using them. Lets detail them:
1) using numbers to 'win'. 2) Using smaller 'pet' alliances as meatshields 3) propagandizing their members 4) being disloyal to junior alliances
IT and the south certainly uses numbers to win fights. In Kitchen Sink they out numbered most of the NC fleets. The south has 'pet' alliances, and further more has renter alliances as well. They produce their own propaganda (admittedly inferior) and the expulsion of disloyal or non-paying alliances happens there as well. IT used Atlas as a meat shield to protect their assets in H-W. If it is an issue of mechanics, These tactics should ALWAYS work, yet the south is unable to match the success of the north, even when not directly threatened by it. That leads us to one of two conclusions: That the leaders of the south are completely incompetent, or those assumptions are incorrect. I tend to believe the later, rather than the former myself, but I could be wrong.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.11.23 01:34:00 -
[198]
Originally by: ps3ud0nym
Originally by: Kalle Demos
Unless a person experiences something direct they cant comment on it, believing what is on shc & kugu wont get you or anyone far and yes this is propaganda / hearsay.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen anyone make. I certainly didn't "experience" the Roman Empire or the fall of Carthage, but that doesn't stop me and anyone else from learning from the experience of others.
I dont even know why im commenting on the 0.0 stuff anyway, I got bored of 0.0 months ago, but I will comment on what you written here.
What people write on forums is NOT factual / 100% accurate, otherwise every thread is 100% accurate, if a person says they dislike the north and another says they like the north I cant just believe both of them.
You are getting factual stuff confused with 'what he / she said' and considering the north are more active on the forums it is no surprise you would hear more negative comments about the south.
Anyway like I said I dont care much for either side and even though I sometimes reply in favour of one side of the other I really dont care what happens in 0.0 lol
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Kilgarth
Amarr Lyonesse. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.23 02:42:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Kilgarth on 23/11/2010 02:42:32 I, too, like posting in threads that are almost 3 months old.
This is still a WIDOT thread
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.23 06:04:00 -
[200]
TEST is the best cause we have the most fun you can have with a computer game :D |
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Viribus
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.23 06:50:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Headerman TEST is the best cause we have the most fun you can have with a computer game that isn't ****Lay
Not emptyquoting
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Ivana Twinkle
Amarr GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.23 07:03:00 -
[202]
*/whine*/ ---
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Misty Rains
Caldari Synergy Holdings Inc
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Posted - 2010.11.23 13:07:00 -
[203]
I was thinking, What normally hangs with testys,
(ok i was sitting on toilet when that came to me)
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Nikodiemus
Caldari Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.23 14:53:00 -
[204]
ITT crying.
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Ascendic
Caldari Lyonesse. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.23 23:43:00 -
[205]
You mean kinda like how the Allies beat the Axis?
When you are outgunned you need to blob them to sh!t
Obviously proven tactic
Cry moar?
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Purrp Ledone
Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.24 00:34:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Kalle Demos
People wouldnt join an alliance unless it had something to offer, you cant limit 0.0 to "north being great and south being bad" because people in any alliance most likely have nothing but good comments to say about their current alliance and im sure each alliance is unique in the way it teaches.
How do you explain OWN Alliance then?
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.11.24 05:14:00 -
[207]
Originally by: DurrHurrDurr
Originally by: Musical Fist Stuff.
You're trying too hard.
Nah, there's still room for him to try harder.
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riverini
Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.11.30 15:12:00 -
[208]
this thread haz potential... see ya in page 15
German Giggles riverini
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drifter raas
Caldari RETRIBUTIONS. SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2010.11.30 16:36:00 -
[209]
wow, im sure that i read somehting like this about bob a few years back.
some things dont change.
People complaining about crap
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Lusulpher
Gallente Sinister Elite Supremacy.
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Posted - 2010.12.01 15:52:00 -
[210]
Would read again. Creative Customer Person 7 |
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