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Machete Visor
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Posted - 2010.09.05 00:31:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Quadrantid Edited by: Quadrantid on 04/09/2010 23:26:03
Originally by: Machete Visor
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I'm drifting off point here. As I said, society creates its own rules
No it doesnt. The idea that everything is relative and manufactured ignores continuity of experience, among other things
If society creates it's own rules, create a rule you can fly and jump out a window
I was talking the virtual rules of morality, rather than anything about the theories of physics. As an astronomer, I'm much more au-fait with the physical side of things ;) If I said that gravity worked upwards, and jumped, it would still pull me down...
If I said that duping anyone was fine and moral, and in fact beneficial to them (because it teaches them a valuable life lesson), and was able to persuade the rest of my society to follow that way of thinking, then from the point of view of that society, such an act would be perfectly reasonable.
Making a specious physical argument doesn't devalue what my rambling words were meant to convey :)
Personally, I think what this guy has done is reprehensible, from my own moral standpoint. I can't understand the mindset of someone who would want to scam people of their cash, and more than I can understand the mind set of someone who wants to suicide gank newbies, or someone who thinks the Krays were wonderful. But I think the general morality in the Eve Universe seems to be that if you commit a crime with enough style, then you'll get fame and glory even while those who are hit hard by it (like myself!) QQ and fume. In fact, from what I've seen since I started playing again, the more QQing you get, and the more tears you extra, the more fame and glory you get.
That's what I meant about society making its own rules. I don't have to like it, but I acknowledge it. I'm just glad it's just a game :D
isnt all morality - including the one in question here - based in physics?
unravel it far enough
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
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Posted - 2010.09.05 00:59:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha 850 billions or even 850 trillions are worthless when your name is in the mud forever
I have been a pirate for most of my eve life. I hunt the weak and the foolish, I blow up their ships, pop their pods and take their stuff. That reputation is not harmed in the least by this scam.
The reputation that I had for honesty and competence in business that was forged within MD was cashed in for 850b. I felt that to be the optimal exchange rate that I was going to get, with time and effort factored in.
Also, the only "name in the mud" as far as this is concerned is Bad Bobby and other known alts. I have other names that are not so effected and have plenty of reputation to work with. It didn't take me long to build Bad Bobby and it didn't take me long to build the others. Once you learn the skills to build and sell reputation then it is those that are important, the reputation itself is just the commodity you trade in.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha expecially in a game where the only valuable and lasting currency is fame and honor.
If it's currency then it's there to be spent.
The most valuable thing to me is the continued comradeship of those I fly with. That is something that I would never part with and would never consider currency. My recent actions have not harmed that in the least bit.
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania there will always be people ingame that know who you are in RL, and what you did. Sure these might be close enough to not "rat" on you.. but seriously.. You have to live with this stigma the rest of your life..
Would anyone here ever trust someone with an action like this in their past?
I have experienced first hand how your view change once a friend shows this side of their personality..
I dont understand why people sell their morales for isk or RL money.. Not that I dont understand the greed and lure, just the blemish you have to carry is not worth it imo..
Oh no! My Karma!
Oh no! My RL reputation!
Oh no! My interweb stalkers!
How will my workmates and customers feel about the fact that I've hurt other players in a competitive PvP focused computer game in which I play a pirate? At the moment they are trying their best to stop rolling around with laughter. Maybe in time they will decide that I am evil and must be hunted down and made an example of... I doubt it somehow.
These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.09.05 01:27:00 -
[153]
Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo!
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.05 01:28:00 -
[154]
Quote:
These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else
It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings".
You indeed f*ckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
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Posted - 2010.09.05 02:04:00 -
[155]
Edited by: corestwo on 05/09/2010 02:04:46
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
These posts, and your responses, demonstrate pretty well that some of us are just playing the game in a completely different way...and that this concept is a bit hard to grasp for everyone else
It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings".
You indeed f*ckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person.
And this is a game where, as you put it, f*ckthroating someone else is not only a valid course of "interaction with a real human being", but one that is allowed and even endorsed by the developers. So what's your point again?
Originally by: Ji Sama Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo!
Sorry you lost 20b (or so?) in this. No, really.
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Victor Valka
Caldari Endoxa Corporation
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Posted - 2010.09.05 04:15:00 -
[156]
I'm impressed. (Not that it's worth much.)
If you ever manage to spend it all, let us know.
Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
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mechtech
SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.05 04:54:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
It always lies on the subtle line dividing what's "the game" and what's "interaction with real human beings".
You indeed f*ckthroat a faceless internet individual who gave you full support and dedication, but it's still an human person.
I think you're missing an integral part of online gaming. You're never screwing over another human person, your character is screwing over someone else's character. Role playing is a big part of any MMORPG, including eve. While your character is obviously a reflection of your RL persona (I would guess an amplified altruistic version), you have to realize that it's just as common for people to be playing an evil character.
I do think it's possible to break through the character and actually become acquaintances, or even friends with other eve players, but it takes time. If you haven't talked with someone on voice comms, I don't know if you can ever be sure if you've broken through their "character" (very very few people keep up their eve persona on voice comms). We're all connected through a mouse/keyboard, 2 screens, and an internet connection, true person to person connection is something that doesn't happen over a few nights at a bar like in RL, it takes months in these circumstances.
So basically the point I'm making is that all interactions are character to character, and a characters actions don't always reflect on the people behind the screen. Again, you obviously play your character like your RL personality (can't be sure though, I don't know you ), but people pay $15 a month to have fun, and that often entails crazy over the top antics (which is why scams on the MD forum are such a draw to people who want a good gaming challenge, such as Bad Bobby).
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HazyShade
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Posted - 2010.09.05 04:57:00 -
[158]
Spoiler Alert!! . . . . . . . . . . All the people you are working with have hidden agendas as well (stealing your isk) Surprise!
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.09.05 05:09:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Proton Power Copy from AC post in T4U Thread
***IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT***
ALL TRADING OF T4U SHARES HAS BEEN SUSPENDED. DO NOT BUY/SELL ANY T4U SHARES.
At 06:54 eve time on 2010.09.03, 5 votes were started to unlock the 5 titan bpo's in the "super secret corp". The director alts were kicked out the previous day supposedly to "keep any of you from grabbing the 600 votes that were created for the new directors".
This is either a really mean test of the system or Bad Bobby has decided to cut and run. More info to come as it is available.
Bobby Booby bubby. what have you done.
lol.
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Lillith Starfire
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Posted - 2010.09.05 05:56:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 05/09/2010 05:56:11
Originally by: mechtech RP Stuff
Oh please, that old chestnut? But it wasn't me honey! It was my character having cybersex! I wasn't personally involved in any way at all!
The fact is majority of people don't play this as a RPG and character sits doing nothing without the human involved. People ARE affected personally by what happens. If they weren't they wouldn't even get any enjoyment out of it.
You guys got played by a jerk, end of story.
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Foolish Bob
Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.09.05 06:40:00 -
[161]
Allow me to make a reasoned response to this
investments have risk you might not get back your stake it's rule number one ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2010.09.05 07:17:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Lillith Starfire Edited by: Lillith Starfire on 05/09/2010 05:56:11
Originally by: mechtech RP Stuff
Oh please, that old chestnut? But it wasn't me honey! It was my character having cybersex! I wasn't personally involved in any way at all!
The fact is majority of people don't play this as a RPG and character sits doing nothing without the human involved. People ARE affected personally by what happens. If they weren't they wouldn't even get any enjoyment out of it.
You guys got played by a jerk, end of story.
People that play this game do so with the implicit (and often explicit - just watch the latest trailer) understanding that they could get scammed or ganked or any other end-result that is not their desire or within their control. These same people then willingly go and do something as inherently risky is investing in markets that have little to no in-game controls over them. Maybe they know the risks, maybe they don't, maybe they don't care.
While suggesting that a person that ganks, griefs or scams in-game is a direct reflection of their real personality may give you a warm gooey feeling inside, it doesn't reflect any sort of decision based on fact, it is merely your emotion-driven opinion. That, of course, doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong. Bobby may very well be a jerk in real life, but you can't make that judgement based on his actions in a game where the entire premise is to escape reality through whatever actions the player see's fit.
There are three kinds of people in Eve:
* Those that do care about losing their stuff, and probably would feel pretty crap if they did lose their stuff, but accept that risk regardless. * Those that view it as strictly "just a game" and don't particularly care when they lose. * And those who can't seperate a game from reality, who shouldn't be playing the damn game in the first place.
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.05 07:26:00 -
[163]
T4U may be a scam but someone sent me 450 shares
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2010.09.05 07:36:00 -
[164]
what this changed for me, would I have met BB in game. Last week in some lowsec hub and would I have been offered the option to pay ransom. Then, assuming the request was reasonebly priced, I would have payed and I would have expected to get out safely. Now I expect no ransom offer, nor would I expect to get out if an offer was made and paid.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.05 07:56:00 -
[165]
Quote:
And this is a game where, as you put it, f*ckthroating someone else is not only a valid course of "interaction with a real human being", but one that is allowed and even endorsed by the developers. So what's your point again?
The point is that even if it's supported blah blah, does not mean we have to clap and smile at those who do it.
What I see is that if you try raise an 1B you get flamed to hell and demanded audits and sh!t. If you are someone vouching for scamming you raise 1 almost trillion with no check, then you scam it and people still bow and clap at it.
Now, maybe this is completely natural into your mindset, but for others it's not.
Maybe this comes off the fact that part of my country are exactly of such mindset to prize thieves, embezzlers and generally "smart ones" and this is fracking annoying when you keep seing it in RL again and again and slammed in your face and you honest people shown as you were the idiots.
Quote:
So basically the point I'm making is that all interactions are character to character, and a characters actions don't always reflect on the people behind the screen
This is one of those long term urban legends. I don't buy for a single second that a compete jerk in game is a fantastic and sociable guy in RL.
The most succesful actors and players, after all, are those who play a role but you can see their real exceptional persona through their acting. There's no 100% opaqueness and separation between the role and the person.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Foolish Bob
Caldari The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.09.05 08:31:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
This is one of those long term urban legends. I don't buy for a single second that a compete jerk in game is a fantastic and sociable guy in RL.
The most succesful actors and players, after all, are those who play a role but you can see their real exceptional persona through their acting. There's no 100% opaqueness and separation between the role and the person.
your reason here sir is critically flawed in giving this game more worth than it ought to have in the context of events most and rightly grave, you think that we give more of our most private self to this mere play. No matter that it is for us a most adroit and pleasing diversion, do not imbue this work of art with more than can be due - for over and above all real life will always hold our thrall ----------- I am me. I am not the corp I've joined nor the alliance I fly in.
I'm also not a unique and special snowflake.
Everything I say should be taken in that context. |
Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster
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Posted - 2010.09.05 08:53:00 -
[167]
Originally by: corestwo
Originally by: Ji Sama Like we would trust a single word that comes out of your mouth. You are a goon. Shoo!
Sorry you lost 20b (or so?) in this. No, really.
No U!
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.05 08:56:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha stuff
Do you subscribe to the idea that moral values are being defined through social contracts?
(or)
Do you think they exist as some virtue of their own?
Do you think they are universally pre-existing in some way (heavenly decree, cosmic harmony, ...), dependent on being human ("right" and "wrong" founded in biology/evolution, ...) or just matters of individual preference (i.e. no "objective" right and wrong that would be common between humans)?
What am I trying to get at here? I am confused by you being on the one hand an extreme advocate of the "cold, harsh universe" idea of EVE, being afaik a supporter of non-consentual pvp, having been involved in the alliance game without too much quarrels (the spy feeding your fleet intel is betraying the comrades who trust him, too), ... while on the other hand condemning scams in MD in the most extreme manner possible.
The canonical argument for non-consentual pvp in EVE is one that comes down to the notion of "right" and "wrong" being defined by some social contract specific to the game world. It is ok to destroy/steal your stuff even if you explicitly tell me you don't want to fight, because by logging in to EVE you have agreed that this is nothing bad in here. Killing each other in internet spaceships is a feature of the game after all.
Now on the other hand betrayal of trust is being marketed as a feature of the game, too - yet for some reason you seem to think that the redefining of right/wrong through the contract of game rules does not apply in this case.
If that's just your personal opinion that's all fine and dandy but if this is supposed to be part of some coherent and universal moral system it requires imo some further explanation.
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Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2010.09.05 09:32:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Martosh Toma what this changed for me, would I have met BB in game. Last week in some lowsec hub and would I have been offered the option to pay ransom. Then, assuming the request was reasonebly priced, I would have payed and I would have expected to get out safely. Now I expect no ransom offer, nor would I expect to get out if an offer was made and paid.
Chance to ransom people <-> 850b. Tough choice, not sure which would bring more profit.
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Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2010.09.05 09:50:00 -
[170]
What I meant is that nothing much changed, except maybe I trust eve personalities a little less. I guess the only way to invest in eve is by fully secured loans.
We already had a problem where a business could not fail or it would be labeled a scam. Now trustees are not to blame if they fail to secure that with which they are entrusted.
Instead of increasing the tools we have to enable investment and a secondary market we are killing it.
I might be a bit bleak in my outlook on things right now but, I guess investing in eve is like betting with someone he will return you more than you just placed on the bet. Using a third party only adds another person to the list of people that could run off with your bet.
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Jonny 101
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.09.05 10:32:00 -
[171]
Well well well Bobby, what is there to say?
When I was first told about the 850b scam (I've been inactive for a while, just re-activated last night), I figured "oh, another legit guy goes bad when faced with temptation, how...utterly common place and boring".
Until of course I read this thread.
You have created a work of art, I am impressed, I am in awe of the sheer beauty of this scam.
This must definately rank as one of the great scams of all time, not due to the isk invovled, but simply because of the style and style gentlemen, is everything!
Congratulations Bobby, this is one to be proud of. Signature needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist |
Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.09.05 11:51:00 -
[172]
Originally by: corestwo Bobby, was this (as I suspect) planned all along, from the first tiny reputation building venture onward?
Yes and no. I kept my options open.
I always ran the business legitimately and I would have been happy to continue doing so for much longer. I would have expanded further with expectation that the end of the fleet lag issue (soonTM) would have brought more profits to the IPO. I never had any plans for giving back the isk though. At best I would have run the IPO "forever".
That said I always kept an eye on oppertunities for taking the whole thing. Taking one BPO or the isk for one expansion never interested me, but the possibility that a crisis with the trustees could occur or an oppertunity for creating a controlling majority of shares in the Super Sekrit Corp could occur (as it did) was always kept in mind. Hence the fact I didn't give Cosmo his shares, which was easy to deny but still brought me closer to a majority. If the vote to create 600 shares had been stopped by the trustees I would have just said "right you are, we'll do this differently" and business would have continued as usual.
The public relations and social engineering aspects of the venture did not require me to make a firm decision on my intent, although I suppose saying "I never had any plans for giving back the isk" was pretty close to "I planned to scam". Building the reputation, overcomming the issues that came with that, managing public perception of me and bringing a large section of the MD investor population to the point where they stopped thinking clearly with respect to my trustworthyness was equally valid as both a legitimate businessman seeking large volumes of isk at low rates or as a scammer trying to make a big score.
Whichever way you look at it, it was a really interesting and challenging project for me that delivered in every way I could have hoped for. I really enjoyed both the legitimate venture and execution of the final heist. Thanks to you all for giving me that oppertunity.
I think it's time to let this story fade into the night, so I'm going to lay off posting. I'll come back for any interesting questions but I'm not going to strut about MD rubbing people's noses in it.
So long and thanks for all the fish!
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Kapila Parthalan
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:04:00 -
[173]
Early on, I think after the titan changes and the long lack of dividends, you asked investors whether they wanted to liquidate or continue (page 45). Since you had no desire to return the isk, what would you have done if at some time most shareholders had wanted to liquidate? Assuming the trustees had done their job properly, you would have had access to no more than one BPO at a time, plus a small amount of cash.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:16:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/09/2010 13:25:25
Quote:
Do you subscribe to the idea that moral values are being defined through social contracts?
I don't. I don't think the modern mercification and bartering of everything including "moral values" is something I'd put myself to follow.
This is daily teached everywhere, but I am happy to be the outlier of the huge groupthink.
I am also i.e. one of the few idiots left who believe in being >>> having, see how obsolete I am and proud of it.
Quote:
while on the other hand condemning scams in MD in the most extreme manner possible.
I am not condemning scams or other game features. 99% of the scams I don't even blink an eye about.
I am despising (different term) how brilliant, utterly brilliant people that could have an amazing future decide to cash in and thrash their accrued community results.
Finally, I care for MD activities and community, I am not a sicko bent on general destruction "for the luls" and this is why I try writing articles and do the little I can to "help".
And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment.
Edit: to better explain my P.O.V.: I am a builder, I'd naively fit well in Start Trek idea of bringing humanity to a new and positive future beyond their limits. Therefore I don't see too well those running against this and proposing ONCE AGAIN the decaying aspect of our race and it's ages old habits. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:26:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment.
That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end.
Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:41:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment.
That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end.
You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:48:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Edit: to better explain my P.O.V.: I am a builder, I'd naively fit well in Start Trek idea of bringing humanity to a new and positive future beyond their limits. Therefore I don't see too well those running against this and proposing ONCE AGAIN the decaying aspect of our race and it's ages old habits.
Edit2: I just typed on SCC Lounge (replying to other stuff) me in a nutshell.
I am the completely romantic person in a post-illuminism world.
Nothing wrong with that. I think the naive portion more comes in when you start expecting that everyone else thinks the same way. Maybe you actually don't, but it kinda sounds like it from some of your earlier responses!
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: Dariah Stardweller
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
And then, when MD seems finally recovering, BHAM! The next huge black storm to set MD community back in passive mode and weeks of stupid trollish posts at every new honest attempt of investment.
That just proves the system isn't up to it. If scamming is possible, it will happen. I choose to simply avoid those investments and dabble on the market myself. As long as their are no system changes that make safe investing possible this circle will never end.
You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe.
Or you could just...dabble in the market yourself, make as much money, and be safer. Half the reason scams like this continue to happen is because people are overly infatuated with the concept of the "secondary market" and so are willing to accept relatively tiny returns in these big, neat ventures for...whatever reason...when they could have made the same 2% that Bobby had been paying per month by flipping Trit. This really just goes to prove my point - some of us are playing different games. I just don't get it.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.05 13:56:00 -
[178]
Quote:
Or you could just...dabble in the market yourself, make as much money, and be safer. Half the reason scams like this continue to happen is because people are overly infatuated with the concept of the "secondary market" and so are willing to accept relatively tiny returns in these big, neat ventures for...whatever reason...when they could have made the same 2% that Bobby had been paying per month by flipping Trit. This really just goes to prove my point - some of us are playing different games. I just don't get it.
This is the barrier. We don't put so much effort for the 2%.
The 2% is a minor consequence of building a community that breathes, that socializes, that progresses where it counts, that is in humanity and not just in "objects".
Others have fun or even pride at destroying this, and while I can see reasons / mental models for doing so, I can't say I am fine with it.
It's philosophy vs philosophy. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dariah Stardweller
Gallente Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.09.05 14:37:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You might want to have a look at my latest thread about RL technical analysis. At the end there's posted several tips about how to invest and still stay profitable, in a scammers universe.
I bet there are some good tips but in the end, if you are going to give away any ammount of control over your isk/assets, you WILL run into scams in time.
It's a risk you take, and nobody is twisting your arm.
The fact that ppl are willing to give up control is the reason scammers are attracted. You facilitate their stomping grounds.
If you abandon the absolute safety of your personal wallet, don't come complaining when it all goes to hell. It's like saying you are going to look for a fight in low sec and then come complaining when you get blown up. Inappropriate signature removed. Zymurgist |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.09.05 15:05:00 -
[180]
Quote: I always ran the business legitimately and I would have been happy to continue doing so for much longer.
You mean as long as you didnt fail cascade your alliance and had that stroking your (fill in the blank).
Nice haul though bro :) |
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