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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
360
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Posted - 2012.08.05 11:09:00 -
[451] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Does it really hurt anybody if it can't? Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations. But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread?
who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here.
and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jagoff Haverford
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort Get Off My Lawn
28
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 11:31:00 -
[452] - Quote
Qel Hoth wrote:[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]If a Hulk could carry 1 set of every crystal in game, there is no choice, to do anything else is illogical. If you must choose between two or three of the 15 odd crystal types, you must make a choice as to what you will bring with you. Except that the Hulk *can* carry 1 full set of every crystals it needs, provided that it never leaves Empire space. In hisec, there are only 4 ores to worry about in any given system. So there are no "meaningful choices" to be made there, at least with respect to crystal selection. You load up with a full set of 12 crystals, plop in 4 spare new ones, and never think about it again. No need to get in a fleet. No need to have an alt haul crystals out to you. No need to worry about what rocks are currently in the belt. In Empire space, the ship with the maximum yield has no real limitations.
If this burden was being placed on everyone who mined, I could see your point. But it's limited only to those who mine outside of Concord's protection.
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Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
3
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Posted - 2012.08.05 11:42:00 -
[453] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Dave stark wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.
In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca. no you can't! my alt can't see in the corp hangar of my main's orca. even worse if you're in an npc corp because you can't even get roles to alleviate this problem. even worse on multi-corp ops. Right-click, configure ship, allow fleet access...
Shhhh don't tel him that there is a right click with options! |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
161
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 13:02:00 -
[454] - Quote
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/QuarkShip.jpg
We need a new ORE ship - THIS...forget crystals, and hulks, and rocks.... be one with the "garbage", be one with the "garbage"!
Ok, maybe not... but having been on SISI testing these ships over and over (because the are the only ones on TQ I bother to own and use for production purposes... my thoughts if this is the way it's going to be...
T1 covetors all the way... forget using T2, forget exhumers (except as shiny toys) and get the BPOs and build them in bulk, then mine and mine and mine... lose them to rats, to ganks and just hit the ship-dispenser for another one... mining has just gone to the "throw-away" garbage ships that are cheap fleet builds... if you get more ore out of one then the ISK needed to build it - you WIN Eve. To mine or not to mine... that is the quesiton. |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
408
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 14:50:00 -
[455] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:But really, just log into sisi, fit a hulk with t2 laser and a t2 crystal, mine a rock that matchs the crystal for one cycle and compare the results with the laser info.
One would think that this would be a standard practice after making such a change...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961
EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody
- Qolde |
Pipa Porto
631
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 18:53:00 -
[456] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Malcanis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Does it really hurt anybody if it can't? Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations. But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread? who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here. and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with.
And a new ship that allows you to entirely sidestep the "pain in the arse."
With the Hulk able to fit 3 Crystal types, unless you're mining one cycle per Ore type (ludicrously unlikely because there's no sensible reason to be mining in a belt that's already been picked clean like that), you don't need to touch the Orca any more often than you do with the current Cargo expanded Hulk (which fills in around 10m). EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Blastcaps Madullier
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ethereal Dawn
79
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Posted - 2012.08.05 19:24:00 -
[457] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:Malcanis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Malcanis wrote:For God's sake, does it really hurt anybody if the cargo bay can hold a decent crystal loadout? Does it really hurt anybody if it can't? Miners are getting an across the board buff that fails to meet at least a third of the goals CCP set out for the Barge/Exhumer re-balance. And they're complaining about the one tiny bugbite that'll be trivially dispensed with in normal operations. But what's the negative involved? Why expend the effort to oppose such a trivial buff? Is there no more pressing problem that deserves a 23 page thread? who cares how pressing the issue is. the fact it's reached 23 pages indicates there's some thing to be looked at here. and what buff? there is no buff? having to deal with crystals is just added tedium and time for no reward. crystals aren't being improved, the hulk's yield isn't better etc. all we have been given is a pain in the arse to deal with. And a new ship that allows you to entirely sidestep the "pain in the arse." With the Hulk able to fit 3 Crystal types, unless you're mining one cycle per Ore type (ludicrously unlikely because there's no sensible reason to be mining in a belt that's already been picked clean like that), you don't need to touch the Orca any more often than you do with the current Cargo expanded Hulk (which fills in around 10m).
There's also the issue that currently before these changes go live, default hulk cargo hold is currently 8k M3 unexpanded with rigs and expanders, as others have noted empire this change is not going to really effect them due to only 4 different ore types avail where it WILL affect is null sec mostly and ls to some degree there are people who multi box on multiple alts while in null/sov and lowsec as this means it's more hassle for them, with the way things are on TQ currently people choose to load the hulk cargo hold up with all the crystal types they need and go mining, where with say 4 hulks and a orca they might need 1 or 2 haulers to keep up with the output of the hulks on the orca, this necessitates them having to also fit more frequent trips to drop off crystals which would mean they cant keep up with the output currently of the hulks, or they ahve to get a 3rd hauler alt just to be able to keep up with the output and keep the miners supplied with crystals as well.
What it boils down to is adding a needless extra hassle that doesn't need to be there in the first place. Also if you compare the volume M3 of laser ammo crystals and mining crystals any reason why the disparity in crystal sizes? one focuses frequencys to cause damage/range etc where the others focus the frequency to specific ore types? yet one is tiny and the other is large, another way to put it, is would people PVPing be happy if they nerfed amarr combat ships cargo holds so that the fleets/roams are then FORCED to have a cloaky hauler along for resupply - which incidently would NOT be fun for the poor sod forced to do so, and fleet/roam engagement wise you can see it now when a fleet jumps through a gate "there's their resupply ship, everyone primary that ship.... pop" "f**K FC crystals burnt out need resupply" "sorry supply ship dead".... |
Pipa Porto
632
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 21:15:00 -
[458] - Quote
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:There's also the issue that currently before these changes go live, default hulk cargo hold is currently 8k M3 unexpanded with rigs and expanders, as others have noted empire this change is not going to really effect them due to only 4 different ore types avail where it WILL affect is null sec mostly and ls to some degree there are people who multi box on multiple alts while in null/sov and lowsec as this means it's more hassle for them, with the way things are on TQ currently people choose to load the hulk cargo hold up with all the crystal types they need and go mining, where with say 4 hulks and a orca they might need 1 or 2 haulers to keep up with the output of the hulks on the orca, this necessitates them having to also fit more frequent trips to drop off crystals which would mean they cant keep up with the output currently of the hulks, or they ahve to get a 3rd hauler alt just to be able to keep up with the output and keep the miners supplied with crystals as well.
What it boils down to is adding a needless extra hassle that doesn't need to be there in the first place. Also if you compare the volume M3 of laser ammo crystals and mining crystals any reason why the disparity in crystal sizes? one focuses frequencys to cause damage/range etc where the others focus the frequency to specific ore types? yet one is tiny and the other is large, another way to put it, is would people PVPing be happy if they nerfed amarr combat ships cargo holds so that the fleets/roams are then FORCED to have a cloaky hauler along for resupply - which incidently would NOT be fun for the poor sod forced to do so, and fleet/roam engagement wise you can see it now when a fleet jumps through a gate "there's their resupply ship, everyone primary that ship.... pop" "f**K FC crystals burnt out need resupply" "sorry supply ship dead"....
The large Hidden belt can be mined from two mining perches. Put GSCs there. With the new inventory window, using the GSC is no more difficult than using your cargo hold. Also, there are no extra trips involved in crystal management. The Hauler's warping to the belt empty, so just warp to the belt with crystals instead.
Mining lasers are bigger because they take more minerals. If they were much smaller, we'd load up Itty Vs with them and run them around in Carriers to move minerals.
By the way, Bombers usually have to keep a cloaky hauler with them to provide crystal and topes (for the BLOPS) resupply.
An POS Bashes often require ammunition resupply. That's the rough equivalent of mining; sitting stationary and putting your high slots on some stationary target. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pipa Porto
633
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 00:56:00 -
[459] - Quote
By the way:
DevBlog wrote: The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals. The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock. The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1798
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 06:48:00 -
[460] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:By the way: DevBlog wrote: The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals. The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock. The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary.
You might have surprises. Look at the performance vs the costs. A complete throwaway Covetor is more efficient than a maxed Mack. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Pipa Porto
633
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Posted - 2012.08.06 07:08:00 -
[461] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:By the way: DevBlog wrote: The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals. The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock. The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary. You might have surprises. Look at the performance vs the costs. A complete throwaway Covetor is more efficient than a maxed Mack.
Depends how often you lose them. And since the Covetor requires someone to haul for you (or you to go switch ships), that alt or time comes out of your yield. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 07:29:00 -
[462] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:By the way: DevBlog wrote: The Covetor and Hulk cater to group mining operations due to their large mining capability, low EHP and storage, forcing them to rely on others to haul and resupply them with mining crystals. The Retriever and Mackinaw are specifically designed for autonomy purposes, as their large ore bays allow their pilot to stay inside an asteroid belt for longer without having to dock. The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank, or NPCs, by giving a large enough buffer to react to incoming attacks, while paying for that with a lower mining yield.
Unfortunately, the Mack and Hulk have enough EHP that the Skiff's unnecessary. You might have surprises. Look at the performance vs the costs. A complete throwaway Covetor is more efficient than a maxed Mack. Depends how often you lose them. And since the Covetor requires someone to haul for you (or you to go switch ships), that alt or time comes out of your yield.
all you lose is the time to swap to a hauler, about 60 seconds every however often you haul. an impel holds almost as much as a mackinaw.
crystals aside, a covetor is easily the best yield/cost ship now. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
633
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 08:15:00 -
[463] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
all you lose is the time to swap to a hauler, about 60 seconds every however often you haul. an impel holds almost as much as a mackinaw.
crystals aside, a covetor is easily the best yield/cost ship now.
It was the best yield/cost ship before the buff, too. But when I suggest that people deal with ganks by using the cheaper ship, I get my head bitten off.
Anyway, the Exhumer/Mining Barge choice depends entirely on how often you expect to lose them. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 10:51:00 -
[464] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:
all you lose is the time to swap to a hauler, about 60 seconds every however often you haul. an impel holds almost as much as a mackinaw.
crystals aside, a covetor is easily the best yield/cost ship now.
It was the best yield/cost ship before the buff, too. But when I suggest that people deal with ganks by using the cheaper ship, I get my head bitten off. Anyway, the Exhumer/Mining Barge choice depends entirely on how often you expect to lose them.
the difference is that the gap is smaller between the two ships now. making it less of an issue dropping yield from the hulk. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
tigger digger
Hundred Acre Mine Co.
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:11:00 -
[465] - Quote
Well, this is definitely going to cut into my mining output. Going from 19k m3 capacity to 8500 m3 capacity on my hulk is going to suck. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
361
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:21:00 -
[466] - Quote
tigger digger wrote:Well, this is definitely going to cut into my mining output. Going from 19k m3 capacity to 8500 m3 capacity on my hulk is going to suck.
no it won't. mackinaw. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
909
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 13:34:00 -
[467] - Quote
tigger digger wrote:Well, this is definitely going to cut into my mining output. Going from 20k m3 capacity to 8500 m3 capacity on my hulk is going to suck. Move into a 3x MLU Mackinaw then. It has a 35,000 m3 ore hold .
[Mackinaw, BIG] Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Survey Scanner II Supplemental EM Ward Amplifier Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4434
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Posted - 2012.08.06 13:36:00 -
[468] - Quote
tigger digger wrote:Well, this is definitely going to cut into my mining output. Going from 19k m3 capacity to 8500 m3 capacity on my hulk is going to suck.
Swap to a Mackinaw then. 37,500m^3 ore capacity should rock for you. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Pipa Porto
633
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 20:02:00 -
[469] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:
all you lose is the time to swap to a hauler, about 60 seconds every however often you haul. an impel holds almost as much as a mackinaw.
crystals aside, a covetor is easily the best yield/cost ship now.
It was the best yield/cost ship before the buff, too. But when I suggest that people deal with ganks by using the cheaper ship, I get my head bitten off. Anyway, the Exhumer/Mining Barge choice depends entirely on how often you expect to lose them. the difference is that the gap is smaller between the two ships now. making it less of an issue dropping yield from the hulk.
I didn't notice the bump to 4%/level. Funnily enough, it'll take Exhumers 2 before the Hulk mines better than the Covetor. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
363
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:27:00 -
[470] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:
all you lose is the time to swap to a hauler, about 60 seconds every however often you haul. an impel holds almost as much as a mackinaw.
crystals aside, a covetor is easily the best yield/cost ship now.
It was the best yield/cost ship before the buff, too. But when I suggest that people deal with ganks by using the cheaper ship, I get my head bitten off. Anyway, the Exhumer/Mining Barge choice depends entirely on how often you expect to lose them. the difference is that the gap is smaller between the two ships now. making it less of an issue dropping yield from the hulk. I didn't notice the bump to 4%/level. Funnily enough, it'll take Exhumers 2 before the Hulk mines better than the Covetor. It's still the best yield/cost ratio without that. The Hulk has 15% more yield for Ten Times the price. So if a Hulk makes 30m ISK/Hr, the Covetor makes 26m ISK/hr*, and it takes about 60 hours to recoup the difference between them. *Lower income estimates make the payoff for a Hulk take longer.
look at any mmo, the closer you get to "optimal" or "best" the cost in whatever game currency there is incrases exponentially. you'll always pay peanuts for a 100% increase when you're low down the food chain (eg going from an osprey to a current retriever) than going from "almost the best" to "the best".
however with the covetor getting the 4% bonus making the difference smaller it's now more viable to "downsize" i probably will myself for a while. between all the tech nerf speculation, mining barge change speculation, and my plans to be elsewhere i'll buy rets/covs instead of macks/hulks until i've got a bit more isk behind me.
Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Pipa Porto
635
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:25:00 -
[471] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:
look at any mmo, the closer you get to "optimal" or "best" the cost in whatever game currency there is incrases exponentially. you'll always pay peanuts for a 100% increase when you're low down the food chain (eg going from an osprey to a current retriever) than going from "almost the best" to "the best".
however with the covetor getting the 4% bonus making the difference smaller it's now more viable to "downsize" i probably will myself for a while. between all the tech nerf speculation, mining barge change speculation, and my plans to be elsewhere i'll buy rets/covs instead of macks/hulks until i've got a bit more isk behind me.
What are you onto now? I'm just pointing out that the Covetor has always been the most cost effective mining ship. People didn't use them because most miners get a hard on for having the maximum yield possible and entirely discount the possibility of losing their ship. That's why they get so upset when they lose it, because they never even considered the possibility, so the loss comes as a massive shock.
Assuming a Hulk Yield of 30m/hr, the Covetor now yields 26m/hr, and after the buff will yield 27m/hr. With a 230m price difference, that works out to a payback of ~60hrs now and 76hrs post buff.
The buff is only giving you an extra million isk/hr. Again, lower Hulk isk/hr makes for a smaller difference. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
363
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:00:00 -
[472] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
What are you onto now?
i have no idea. don't even remember making that post. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Pipa Porto
637
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:05:00 -
[473] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
What are you onto now?
i have no idea. don't even remember making that post.
Drunk posting best posting. I was wondering why we were going in that specific little circle. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1248
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:07:00 -
[474] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:What are you onto now? I'm just pointing out that the Covetor has always been the most cost effective mining ship. People didn't use them because most miners get a hard on for having the maximum yield possible and entirely discount the possibility of losing their ship. That's why they get so upset when they lose it, because they never even considered the possibility, so the loss comes as a massive shock.
Assuming a Hulk Yield of 30m/hr, the Covetor now yields 26m/hr, and after the buff will yield 27m/hr. With a 230m price difference, that works out to a payback of ~60hrs now and 76hrs post buff.
The buff is only giving you an extra million isk/hr. Again, lower Hulk isk/hr makes for a smaller difference. So you're saying people should feel dirty because they're exploiting the miners' hard on ... (for maximum yield, but still).
Maybe some day, the exhumers etc will look like freighters, except it will have one, two or three high slots. All the lows and mids are just decided on for you by CCP who bakes in whatever they feel is right. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Pipa Porto
637
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:41:00 -
[475] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:What are you onto now? I'm just pointing out that the Covetor has always been the most cost effective mining ship. People didn't use them because most miners get a hard on for having the maximum yield possible and entirely discount the possibility of losing their ship. That's why they get so upset when they lose it, because they never even considered the possibility, so the loss comes as a massive shock.
Assuming a Hulk Yield of 30m/hr, the Covetor now yields 26m/hr, and after the buff will yield 27m/hr. With a 230m price difference, that works out to a payback of ~60hrs now and 76hrs post buff.
The buff is only giving you an extra million isk/hr. Again, lower Hulk isk/hr makes for a smaller difference. So you're saying people should feel dirty because they're exploiting the miners' hard on ... (for maximum yield, but still). Maybe some day, the exhumers etc will look like freighters, except it will have one, two or three high slots. All the lows and mids are just decided on for you by CCP who bakes in whatever they feel is right.
Absolutely not. I'm saying the miners should feel silly that they didn't consider that they might lose their ship in a game that explicitly allows violence anywhere. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
363
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 08:45:00 -
[476] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Dave stark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
What are you onto now?
i have no idea. don't even remember making that post. Drunk posting best posting. I was wondering why we were going in that specific little circle.
i'm rarely drunk. sleep posting is where it's at. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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