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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.04 07:49:00 -
[151]
Originally by: OT Smithers Assuming, as several posters here have suggested, that this "fix" makes rockets somewhat less laughable, and perhaps even somewhat close (yet still inferior)to the effectiveness of other frigate weapons...
How in the heck is this a fix? It's all well and good to duel on test against others looking to duel. In such an environment the biggest drawback of Caldari frigates -- their terrible slow speed -- can be ignored. On live it makes all the difference.
If you combine the slowest frigates, worst drone capacity, and a short range weapon that requires a web to work, then for f*ck's sake make the weapon brutally effective.
I dislike replying to Caldari whinebears, especially ones that I haven't seen testing these new rockets at all, but in this generic whinge is a useful comment about speed and the realism of the test server environment. Pretty much all AFs on Sisi fit ABs. Many do on TQ also, but I've spent far too long chasing down and splatting AB AFs in cruisers. But this doesn't necessarily mean that MWD is the way forward. It may give you the ability to avoid a cruiser, but it still doesn't give you the ability to fight it very well, and you're probably dead meat to a Dramiel whatever you do. If this limits the target selection of AFs to other frigates, then we quickly realise that we don't need an expensive AF for that job.
Having said all that, the new rockets do not require a web to be effective against ABing AFs. It definitely improves their damage and the range control is very useful, but it isn't essential to actually hit someone for worthwhile damage. This makes a cap-injected MSB Hawk rather powerful on Sisi, although I have my doubts about how useful this fit would be on TQ.
The Hawk doesn't really have much of a speed disadvantage over other AFs - its speed is pretty similar to that of an Ishkur or Vengeance and, as you'd expect, it's considerably more agile. Only the Jaguar and Wolf have a meaningful speed advantage, but the Wolf lacks a web and is often plated to boot. When both are webbed with overheated ABs, the Jaguar has a 100 m/s speed advantage. It takes a long time for a ship to crawl 8 km from tackle range to AC optimal, especially when it's so vulnerable to kinetic damage.
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari The Einherji
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Posted - 2010.10.04 12:01:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Gypsio III Dual-prop Hookbill is brutal with these rockets.
Yes.
But you tanked my hookbill in your hawk easily, too bad I forgot to bring any non kinetic ammo --- "And thus, another of the world's dreamers died, taking his dreams with him. Just as John Lennon wanted world peace, Gerald Bull simply wanted a gun big enough to fire **** into space." |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.04 14:10:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon
Originally by: Gypsio III Dual-prop Hookbill is brutal with these rockets.
Yes.
But you tanked my hookbill in your hawk easily, too bad I forgot to bring any non kinetic ammo
I think that was the webless MSB Hawk? Which meant that we had pretty much exactly the same chance of killing each other.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.04 14:26:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Gypsio III I dislike replying to Caldari whinebears, especially ones that I haven't seen testing these new rockets at all
My point was simple: combining the slowest ships and lowest drone capacity, with the worst frigate weapon systems ensures that few who have a choice will use them -- this is the situation we have today.
You can park yourself in low sec inside Caldari space and, with the exception of the occasional Drake, and despite the location, still rarely see anyone flying Caldari ships. Instead of the expected one in four ratio, Caldri ships are perhaps one in ten or worse. You do, however, see a few Caldari wrecks. What will this fix do to change this? Will the ratio of Caldari jump to the one in four that would indicate balance? Or, once the novelty has worn off, will it tumble back down to the current level?
The few people who have tested and reported their results have all more or less stated that rocket damage is improved but that it still trails the other weapon systems. In other words, this change -- as described -- does not correct the imbalance. It does not compensate for having the slowest ships, it does not balance out the lowest drone capacity, and if it is as described the weapon system will still trail the others in effectiveness.
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Baron Agamemnon
Caldari The Einherji
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Posted - 2010.10.04 14:43:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Baron Agamemnon
Originally by: Gypsio III Dual-prop Hookbill is brutal with these rockets.
Yes.
But you tanked my hookbill in your hawk easily, too bad I forgot to bring any non kinetic ammo
I think that was the webless MSB Hawk? Which meant that we had pretty much exactly the same chance of killing each other.
Well, you where tanking me so I just split when I was getting low shields --- "And thus, another of the world's dreamers died, taking his dreams with him. Just as John Lennon wanted world peace, Gerald Bull simply wanted a gun big enough to fire **** into space." |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.10.04 15:13:00 -
[156]
Originally by: OT Smithers My point was simple: combining the slowest ships and lowest drone capacity, with the worst frigate weapon systems ensures that few who have a choice will use them -- this is the situation we have today.
I was under the impression that a majority of Caldari ships were designed for long range, ie. lights in frigate class. The fact that those ships under-perform using rockets is a testament to this.
Rockets with current changes work pretty damn well without using a web, still too low damage for my liking but I guess CCP wants them to be a 'bleeder' type of weapon where you are meant to outlast the enemy.
If current changes stand I'll still be using guns on my Vengeance .. just better overall performance against both small/large targets (NEED MORE OOMPH!).
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2010.10.04 16:54:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/10/2010 16:56:48
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If current changes stand I'll still be using guns on my Vengeance .. just better overall performance against both small/large targets (NEED MORE OOMPH!).
Id guess boosting rages would be quite decent idea. Just make them hit for much more DPS but be kinda bad at hurting frigs and be done with it. One weapon system, 2 possible target sizes dependant on ammo.
EDIT: oyea, try to get this stuff fixed as i prolly wont renew my account this year, so wont be able to comment on changes later on :P
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:00:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 04/10/2010 16:56:48
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If current changes stand I'll still be using guns on my Vengeance .. just better overall performance against both small/large targets (NEED MORE OOMPH!).
Id guess boosting rages would be quite decent idea. Just make them hit for much more DPS but be kinda bad at hurting frigs and be done with it. One weapon system, 2 possible target sizes dependant on ammo.
EDIT: oyea, try to get this stuff fixed as i prolly wont renew my account this year, so wont be able to comment on changes later on :P
Tweaking the bonuses on the vengeance might be a better idea as well, as they did on the Hawk. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:34:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 04/10/2010 17:41:28
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Id guess boosting rages would be quite decent idea. Just make them hit for much more DPS but be kinda bad at hurting frigs and be done with it. One weapon system, 2 possible target sizes dependant on ammo.
That might actually work out, Rages given a huge damage increase (as in 2x or more) and a corresponding tweak to exp. vel/rad to make them near useless against non-afk frigs. Penalty would need to be consistent with them being used against larger targets though so the sig increase would need to be changed :D
Addresses the issue I have at any rate.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.04 23:30:00 -
[160]
Quote: Tweaking the bonuses on the vengeance might be a better idea as well, as they did on the Hawk.
The Vengeance can have a damage boost when the Hawk gets bonused to damage types beside kinetic. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: NOT FIXED |
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Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.10.05 01:03:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote: Tweaking the bonuses on the vengeance might be a better idea as well, as they did on the Hawk.
The Vengeance can have a damage boost when the Hawk gets bonused to damage types beside kinetic.
because having 1 more launcher and a bonus tha works on 2 types of missiles is not enough advantage for the hawk?
The vengeance deserves a 10% bonus OR a 4th launcher. BOth dps disadvantages are not fair.
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Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.10.05 02:19:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Seishi Maru The vengeance deserves a 10% bonus OR a 4th launcher.
I totally agree.
.....you can stop posting now.
Without order nothing can exist. Without chaos nothing can evolve. |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.05 03:07:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Seishi Maru because having 1 more launcher and a bonus tha works on 2 types of missiles is not enough advantage for the hawk?
Err, what? The Vengeance does have four launchers.
You're probably thinking of turret slots, since nobody actually fits rockets on a Vengeance (and they won't even with the rocket boost, because the dps is still pathetic). -----------
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Severian Sylpher
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Posted - 2010.10.05 05:37:00 -
[164]
some data collected by a friend and i a day ago. any questions just ask.
link without image Rocket dmg graph |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.10.05 07:26:00 -
[165]
Perhaps borrowing the bonus from the lowly Inquisitor would do the trick to make the Vengeance more likely to use Rockets. Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to EM Rocket damage and 5% bonus to Explosive, Kinetic and Thermal Rocket damage per level.
Not much, but stays true to the racial design. Would love a 4th gun though .. that would be downright epic
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.10.05 07:53:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Severian Sylpher
some data collected by a friend and i a day ago. any questions just ask.
link without image Rocket dmg graph
No questions, but I'd love to see some data on the influence of the target's sig radius as well as its speed. Nice work!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 08:32:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Tsubutai No questions, but I'd love to see some data on the influence of the target's sig radius as well as its speed. Nice work!
I think we can safely assume that sig part of Stafen's missile damage formula is correct - so target sig divided by missile explosion radius acts as a MAX() function, and that targets travelling faster than the missile's explosion velocity can still receive max damage if their sig is proportionally higher. In this case, the sig ratio of 39/30 modifies the explosion velocities to 307.1 m/s and 286.7.
One thing that I fully expect to change is the stats of Rage rockets. Among other missiles, Rage and Furry missiles have explosion radii that indicate that they're designed to be used against targets "one size up". But the current Rage rocket has an explosion radius of just 30 m, while the Hawk target, along with plenty of other frigates, is considerably bigger at 39 m. Rage rockets best employed against cruisers (or maybe destroyers?) should probably have an explosion radius of somewhere 60 m.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.10.05 11:10:00 -
[168]
Originally by: OT Smithers ...
My point was simple: combining the slowest ships and lowest drone capacity, with the worst frigate weapon systems ensures that few who have a choice will use them -- this is the situation we have today.
.....
Apart from the Dram, Ranis and Ishkur, Comet and Worm (which you need Caldari skills to fly anyway), which frigates were you refering to that have more drones than poor, little Caldari ships????? The Vigil? Don't make me laugh. Probe? a ha ha. Maulus? bwuahaha. Helios? lol. Incursus? omg. Imicus? *grin*
If you were paying attention instead of whining, you'd notice a trend here: Gallente ships have generally more drones than others. I know this must come as a shock to you.
But, you know, instead of whining, you'll soon be flying ships that will be right up at the top in terms of OP, because as it currently stands, unless it's crap-fit, there is little that will beat a rocket Hawk.
So, it's nice that others (not Gallente because they're almost as slow as you are, have far worse range are limited to one damage type) will at least have a chance to gtfo if things go south, which they often will.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.10.05 11:20:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Severian Sylpher
some data collected by a friend and i a day ago. any questions just ask.
link without image Rocket dmg graph
So, a Hawk with 4 launchers will still be doing 4x30dps or 4x20dps on a webbed AB Vigil???? Do I understand that right? Is that supposed to be bad?
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Azbuga
Amarr Bloody Amarr's
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Posted - 2010.10.05 13:18:00 -
[170]
hawk got +5% to damage. What with other rocket ships? like vengeance or malediction? maybe all of them need boost?
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Azbuga
Amarr Bloody Amarr's
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Posted - 2010.10.05 13:21:00 -
[171]
sorry fot double posting but what with heretic too? i forgot this ship cause it is so useless now :)
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Severian Sylpher
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Posted - 2010.10.05 13:21:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Bomberlocks So, a Hawk with 4 launchers will still be doing 4x30dps or 4x20dps on a webbed AB Vigil???? Do I understand that right? Is that supposed to be bad?
not bad really but keep in mind vigil is only a t1 frig, t1 vs t2 you are most always going to lose. If you look at the hawk t1 counter part the kestrel with only 3 mid slots fitting a web means either no tank or minimum armor tank, or no propulsion. No tank and the vigil can burn em down, no propulsion and you can out run them even webbed. also the vigil is the t1 ewar bonused frigate the caldari equivalent would be the griffin compare those 1v1 and see how it works...
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:47:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Azbuga hawk got +5% to damage. What with other rocket ships? like vengeance or malediction? maybe all of them need boost?
no -malediction is a tackle intie so isnt meant to do alot of damage -vengeance already tank like a beast a 10% to rocket damage would make it terribly OP, hawk have more dps and weaker tank if you really want a 10% to rocket damage on the vengeance start to tink how to nerf its tank (5% resist to 5% rocket damage would be balanced) -heretic yeah give it 6-7 launcher and a 10% rocket damage, im totally fine with that
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:39:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
.....
Apart from the Dram, Ranis and Ishkur, Comet and Worm (which you need Caldari skills to fly anyway), which frigates were you refering to that have more drones than poor, little Caldari ships?????
Drones are a deadly weapon against frigates. DonÆt try to minimize this.
Quote: If you were paying attention instead of whining, you'd notice a trend here: Gallente ships have generally more drones than others.
Yes, just as I said, Galliente do have the most drones, followed by Minmatar and Amaar, with Caldari frigates trailing the pack in last place.
Quote: But, you know, instead of whining, you'll soon be flying ships that will be right up at the top in terms of OP, because as it currently stands, unless it's crap-fit, there is little that will beat a rocket Hawk.
This is a nice idea, and one that I can get solidly behind. However, nothing I have seen on test (as reported by others) suggests that this will be the case. What exactly will the Hawk be OPÆed against? Certainly not the Ishkur, assuming that the pilot isnÆt afk or asleep at the keyboard. The Ishkur is faster, it will dish out more DPS at any range, and it might very well have a better tank.
Quote: So, it's nice that others (not Gallente because they're almost as slow as you are, have far worse range are limited to one damage type) will at least have a chance to gtfo if things go south, which they often will.
Yes, everyone else will still be able to disengage more or less at will. This is obviously a HUGE advantage, and one that CCP has decided to offset by making rockets almost (but not quite) as good as the other frigate weapons. Slowest frigates, lowest drone capacity, and still perhaps the worst weapons. Now thereÆs something to get excited about -- if you happen to fly something other than Caldari.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.05 23:25:00 -
[175]
Quote: Drones are a deadly weapon against frigates. DonÆt try to minimize this.
They're also the only weapon that can be shot down. Don't try to minimize that.
Quote: Yes, just as I said, Galliente do have the most drones, followed by Minmatar and Amaar, with Caldari frigates trailing the pack in last place.
Ishkur drone count: 5 Enyo drone count: 1 Taranis drone count: 2
Wolf drone count: 0 Jaguar drone count: 0 Claw drone count: 0
Retribution drone count: 0 Vengeance drone count: 0 Malediction drone count: 0
Hawk drone count: 0 Harpy drone count: 0 Crow drone count: 0
Conclusion: stop misrepresenting things. On the t2 scale, Gallente drone numbers > Caldari = Amarr = Minmatar. Stop talking about the lack of a drone AF as some kind of massive liability because it isn't.
Quote: Slowest frigates
Gap between Caldari and Gallente isn't huge on this and they will generally be as fast or faster (if it's armour rigged) than a Vengeance.
Quote: lowest drone capacity
Please stfu already about this, it's utterly irrelevant. By your logic Minmatar and Amarr should be gimped as well right now because their frigates lack drone bays.
_________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.10.06 01:10:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Seishi Maru because having 1 more launcher and a bonus tha works on 2 types of missiles is not enough advantage for the hawk?
Err, what? The Vengeance does have four launchers.
You're probably thinking of turret slots, since nobody actually fits rockets on a Vengeance (and they won't even with the rocket boost, because the dps is still pathetic).
oo my.. i was with the malediction at my head.. oops/
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Artemis Ahab
Caldari The Inf1dels
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Posted - 2010.10.06 05:35:00 -
[177]
Doesn't the amarr eaf use drones? He's not totally wrong, you're just looking at af's and saying they're the representatives of all frigates for their race
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.06 13:12:00 -
[178]
Right but we're not talking EAFs here, we're talking rocket using ships and their equivilents on other races. This means intys and AFs. We could start talking about the Helios as well and it'd be equally irrelevant. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2010.10.06 14:30:00 -
[179]
Ummm actually helios would be kinda relevant :) Helios is quite good combat-covops due to drones, wheras you need to remember that Anathema does use rockets :P
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Artemis Ahab
Caldari The Inf1dels
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Posted - 2010.10.06 14:36:00 -
[180]
Well I used the hawk somewhat on sisi, and so far I've failed miserably in anything but the msb + booster fit. Ssb + web died horribly to the first jag I came across
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