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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
225
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Posted - 2012.08.03 11:20:00 -
[91] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
Except you missed the point of the analogy.
YOU MUST BE IN RANGE TO DOCK/JUMP/ACTIVATE GATE etc...
You can't jump if you get bumped off of gate or dock if you are bumped off of station. You can't activate an acceleration gate unless you are in range.
That is why the warp at 10 is done - it puts you within the activate range without risking getting caught on gate.
Spamming activate is the second part of the trick and is what anyone would do to get the server to process the command ASAP... Why won't CCP fix the ongoing FW issues? Fix the speed tanking of plexes
CCP Sreegs - I'm just Winston Wolf |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
240
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Posted - 2012.08.03 13:00:00 -
[92] - Quote
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:Don't ALL acceleration gates work like this? ....and have since, like, forever? Is DurrDurrDurr just learning to play the game or wut? No, for the first 2.5 years of FW one was technically invulnerable if the acceleration gate had been activated. We bitched and moaned to some extent about it and it was changed so that 'normal' mechanics applied .. think it was initially meant to help FW noobs (everyone in FW has less than 2M SP, fact! ) survive against evil pirates camping their gates.
From the Reddit entry it sounds like the warp alignment tweak broke it again though .. either that or the mechanic cannot handle spam requests. Most likely scenario is that it is a combination of hitting the gate from the right angle (at speed and aligned) when activating and the omni-present (ie. everywhere in Eve) latency issue where client reports a successful scram with server having no such thing.
In short: Probably not a bug and thus not an exploit. Petition CCP to reorient all gates from horizontal to vertical as getting warp-ins from below/above is a lot harder than in plane |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
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Posted - 2012.08.03 13:53:00 -
[93] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed. I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic.
Why do we want to eliminate the ship limitted combat that is fws main draw for so many? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
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Posted - 2012.08.03 14:19:00 -
[94] - Quote
Also: From the title of the reddit article I thought fweddit exploited hans 3x in front of their fleet. I was interested in reading the details of what exactly that meant.
I was a bit disappointed when I read the post. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2727
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Posted - 2012.08.03 14:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed. I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic. Why do we want to eliminate the ship limitted combat that is fws main draw for so many?
Agreeing with Cearain here. I think this is something that's working as intended for the Faction Warfare design. People wanting to fight plexing fleets should be splitting their own groups into appropriate ship classes to oppose said plexing fleets. Wanting to gate camp the acceleration gates with fast tackle omni fleets is understandable (its easier certainly) but its not in the interest of Faction Warfare gameplay.
To be honest i'd switch the gate activation over to the stargate/wormhole code and let anything activate gate whether its warp scrambled or not as long as its in activation range and have people need to set up their camps inside plexes if they want tackle.
Bottom line this is a mechanic (getting a smaller fleet past a larger one in order to fight under complex restrictions on ship weight) that allows an outnumbered side to fight a guerrilla defense against a superior foe. Faction warfare needs this kind of thing to prevent it becoming an identikit nullsec-lite style blobfest where the larger side always wins. The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedomInferno Wardecs - Shoot Goons for FREE $300,000 dollars :(-á |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
68
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Posted - 2012.08.03 14:58:00 -
[96] - Quote
Callous Jade wrote:Schalac wrote:I don't understand the problem. We know, you made that painfully obvious with your completely off target and idiotic rant. So I stuck a nerve with you huh. Little too close to home for your liking? FW was set up to be an arena where you could fly a ship class and have fights of similar classes of ships. The only people that are bitching about this mechanic are those that want to not fight, but gank. In this instance FW is different from every other part of EVE and that is one of the defining features that people like about FW. If you take away this feature then FW is nothing more than null-lite and honestly not worth newer players getting involved with it other than to farm ISK. They would be at an even greater disadvantage then they already are.
So take your meaningless drivel elsewhere. We don't need you here. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
85
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Posted - 2012.08.03 15:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story.
You're actually wrong.
When you jump, dock, or activate an acceleration gate, you start what's called a "SESSION CHANGE".
Say it with me: "SESSION..... CHANGE....."
Nothing can stop a session change.
But certain things can prevent a session change.
Such as aggression timers.
CCP has been very generous in allowing you to prevent a session change from occurring on the acceleration gate by pointing the target before they activate the gate. It works just like an aggression timer preventing you from docking or jumping, except this "aggression timer" is applied externally to the ship, rather than from any aggressive action of the pilot himself Rabble Rabble!! |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2517
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Posted - 2012.08.03 22:51:00 -
[98] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP. this bug has been fixed several times already but it keeps coming back.
Sounds par for the course for CCP. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
351
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Posted - 2012.08.04 04:14:00 -
[99] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex.
So it all evens out. |
Poetic Stanziel
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
1061
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Posted - 2012.08.04 04:59:00 -
[100] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um.
If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ...
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
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Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
31
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Posted - 2012.08.04 08:05:00 -
[101] - Quote
The Accel Gate Mechanic is fine to me in my own humble opinion and is extremely important to the small scale PvP that is supposed to be fostered by the FW Plex system.
The vast majority of people who are complaining about the mechanic seem to be completely blind to the fact that in a large majority of situations regarding this mechanic their are things that the fleet can do when the other fleet warps past them into the plex.
First Off. RESHIP. The Plex system is made with ship restrictions so that when you are faced with this situation you must SHIP DOWN!!!!
Second . Warp to the Medium or Major. If you want the positional advantage (considering the FWeddit fleet already seemed to have the numerical advantage this doesn't really apply to them) in a case where the dessy fleet outnumbers the Larger fleet you warp to the other plex and head into THOSE plexes and if the other FC wants to fight you can fight.
Thirdly. Wait for them to warp out to a stargate and then catch them their. If you outnumber them and they won't engage you, and you reaaaallllyyy wan't to gank them so bad. Do it like everybody else and camp a stargate for gods sake. If they warp to the station then their going to do your best to avoid you anyway, and then your just going to have wait to gank them somewhere else down the road or move on to option four.
Four. MOVE ON. If someone is going to extreme lengths to avoid you (considering you both outnumbered and outshipped them it's pretty obvious they wern't going to fight you) you might as well move on to find something that you CAN gank or fight.
Their are probably many different scenarios that can play out here but the point is that their are plenty of ways to adapt to the Mechanic instead of having the mechanic adapt to you. This is similar to the station lockout situation that us FW players were faced with when inferno came out. We gave a logical reasoning that station lockout would decrease the ease of small gang PvP, which it did. The Null Seccers laughed and said "Welcome to Null Sec" and the traditional. HTFU.
Considering that, it's hilarious for a Corporation that is primarily made up of Null Sec alts(My apologies if your a member of FWeddit thats either not a null sec alt, or a null seccer that agrees that this fosters small gang PvP and should remain as is) is complaining about a well known mechanic and complaining this is an "exploit". You know what? Welcome to Low-Sec HTFU.
Also for those who are claiming that the mechanic should change to punish people for not checking their DSCAN. Well if someone were to camp an accel gate with something that can actually get into the plex, you know, like the rest of low sec and fw does all the time, then that guy will get ganked and blow up. However the Minmatar fleet in question I am pretty sure warped to the gate knowing the mechanic(like everybody else in fw) would allow them to bypass the camping fleet.
In short, the mechanic is completely fine the way it is. Any discussion about changing whether difficult or easy is completely unnecessary considering the fact that people can easily adapt to this mechanic if it detriments them. The positives of the mechanic strongly outweigh the negatives, which only exist if people make it exists. Join the war, Join the4
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Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
143
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Posted - 2012.08.04 09:00:00 -
[102] - Quote
Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp they simply foster certain ship type pvp, it would hardly be small gang pvp with some alliance rolling around with 200+ man thrasher gangs going into minors to push you out while they farm systems just to hit T5 and then mission bear.
The very second that everyone let it known at T5 they were making billions and billions for very little effort the small gang you like in FW was at risk, if the Nulli boys end up making a mint plenty of other people in null will do the same.
Oh I'm a long time highsec mission bear just for the record. |
Simyaldee
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
31
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Posted - 2012.08.04 10:41:00 -
[103] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp they simply foster certain ship type pvp, it would hardly be small gang pvp with some alliance rolling around with 200+ man thrasher gangs going into minors to push you out while they farm systems just to hit T5 and then mission bear.
The very second that everyone let it known at T5 they were making billions and billions for very little effort the small gang you like in FW was at risk, if the Nulli boys end up making a mint plenty of other people in null will do the same.
Oh I'm a long time highsec mission bear just for the record.
This is actually an excellent point, you are quite correct in the fact that they could get a 200+ thrasher gang. and just roam around killing everything however that isn't the case as you can see. Its been what...a week or two since Nulli joined. I have joked with several Gallente/Minmatar about this frequently. Nulli SUCKS at smaller gang PvP. I think the Amarr have capped one or two systems since Nulli joined? And the big one Kourmonen was capped by the Original Amarrian Corps not Nulli. A lot of the systems are vulnerable yes, but my understanding was that these were vulnerable for the most part before Nulli showed up.
Hopefully CCP has iterations for plexes on the way that will gimp the incredibly MASSIVE amount of farming that is going on on all sides. Of course their has been no sound of CCP anywhere when it comes to these threads that i have seen so i am not wasting my breath.
Now back to the plexing mechanics. The reason that it encourages small gang PvP is that their is a time limit on the plex, and because of the accel gate/no cyno/ no warping. It allows a well flown smaller fleet to outmaneuver a larger fleet, and reduces the chance of a a blob surprising the smaller fleet. And the timer gives a sense of urgency so that the fleet has less of an incentive to build up a massive blob fest and just force them out of the plex.
And speaking of 200 man thrasher gangs i haven't been in the Amarr/Mini theater have their been any of these? Could we get a kill report or something? Join the war, Join the4
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Thomas Kreshant
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
143
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Posted - 2012.08.04 10:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote: And speaking of 200 man thrasher gangs i haven't been in the Amarr/Mini theater have their been any of these? Could we get a kill report or something?
No nothing quite so large but the point is with null alliances getting involved they have the man power to do such things if they wish, I think the largest gang I've been in/seen was around the 90 man mark (all Fweddit thrashers) but that was to shoot an ihub when we first joined mostly it's smaller anywhere in the 20's - 40 range.
The Amarr/Min warzone is picking back up and after a 'lets go plexing lull' this is currently more typical http://t.co/pMHnY49O of a fight although not to suggest it's the same people winning/losing every time. Things seem fairly fun for both sides with wins and losses going back and forth between the various groups and generally lots of people typing gf etc. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 18:55:00 -
[105] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ...
Your looking for ganks.
Which is fine, but the restrictions on plexes are what makes fw the best place for quality pvp. Having these gates camped by mouthbreathers will just make eve that much worse of a game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
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Posted - 2012.08.04 19:07:00 -
[106] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp.. .
Yeah, they really do. There are allot of different ways they do this. No fleet warps in plexs (or on grid witht eh accel gate) as well as the ship restrictions make fw the best place for pvp in eve.
200 thrashers come? do they all warp in at the same time? If not you may be able to move away from the warp in and kill some that arrive early before the rest can catch up.
Or go to a different minor plex. If someone follows kill him and run.
If they refuse to split up ok. They can sit 200 pilots in a plex and run the timer and you can run your own timer in a different plex. You will be doing the plexing work of 200 of thier pilots.
If there forces are smaller but still too much for you/your gang and you see they all entered the plex (using dscan) you can warp out and back to the gate. If one of them warps out you may be able to fight him back at the gate. (of course they can spam warp at the gate but often they won't.) then their gang inside the plex will have to complete 2 warps and burn to where you are fighting this other player before they can join in the fight.
There are other ways these plexes lead to great pvp. Seriously pretty much all the fights in plexes are great fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
352
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Posted - 2012.08.05 14:19:00 -
[107] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ... What they didn't bring the right ships for the plex? Very smart. |
Pax Thar
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
44
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Posted - 2012.08.05 18:04:00 -
[108] - Quote
Working as intended imo. Thers no point in have restricted gates if they can be camped on the in side. Camp the out side if you want to camp. Works just like jump gates, quit being lazy, looking to easy ganks and go pvp. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 16:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:To people comparing this to docking or jumping through a gate, those aren't even remotely the same thing in terms of game mechanics. Points don't stop people from jumping or docking and never have, however, they have always prevented someone from going into warp and I see no reason why they should act differently in this case. Also, how long you've been on a gate or in a station doesn't affect your ability to redock or jump, however, with the unscramable acceleration gate bug it only works on the initial warpin with a very small window and how long you wait to hit the gate results in two very different results.
tl:dr Points should stop someone from going into warp. End of story. You're actually wrong. When you jump, dock, or activate an acceleration gate, you start what's called a "SESSION CHANGE". Say it with me: "SESSION..... CHANGE....." Nothing can stop a session change. But certain things can prevent a session change. Such as aggression timers. CCP has been very generous in allowing you to prevent a session change from occurring on the acceleration gate by pointing the target before they activate the gate. It works just like an aggression timer preventing you from docking or jumping, except this "aggression timer" is applied externally to the ship, rather than from any aggressive action of the pilot himself
Except the "session change" mechanic has nothing to do with jumping or dock session changes, because when those happen you can't even be shot or targeted. The mechanics you just described have nothing to do with what actually happens, since the reason you have unscramable acceleration gate situations is due to the server ticks counting in seconds and the way your velocity is checked when going into warp as you come out of another warp.
If a target sits on the gate for more than a second, then activates it, after which you lock and point them, you will break their warp.
Stop comparing this mechanic to jumping through a gate or docking up. It may seem similar, to many of you, but the game mechanics and checks involved behind them are totally different.
People seem to think that allowing a fleet with fast lockers to camp gates would be a death knell to any sort of fighting inside plexes, to which I completely disagree. If you're camping a minor acceleration gate with a larger fleet, you'll probably only catch a handful of ships, limited to the number of ceptors you have before the rest slip through. In most cases, most of the fleet will be able to slip through, however it provides the fleet that was able to setup on the gate first, the ability to thin out some of the numbers and deny any reinforcements once a second force starts fighting inside of the plex.
Forcing all of the fights to happen inside of the plex ultimately constrains the potential for varying fleet engagements. It would be much more interesting if there was more potential for fights to happen outside of plexes rather than just inside of them. What many people fail to realize is that theres an inherent balance regarding this mechanic which is built in.
Inside of a plex, the defender has a distinct advantage. However, outside of a plex, the attacker has the advantage, since they're able to pick their warpin range and direction they choose to warp in, making the defender extremely vulnerable to long ranged sniping fleets or in the case of a conventional fleet they can warp each component of their gang in at their desired optimal. In fact, in most fleet battles that happen outside of the gate, the attacker wins.
People need to stop thinking in terms of what they're used to and defending that playstyle as the only way that combat should happen in FW. There are lots of exciting possibilities, but you need to learn to think outside of the box.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:17:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ... Your looking for ganks. Which is fine, but the restrictions on plexes are what makes fw the best place for quality pvp. Having these gates camped by mouthbreathers will just make eve that much worse of a game.
You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
I'm going to throw out a totally different scenario that goes against the theory that unscrammable acceleration gates only favor the smaller gang. Lets say i'm camping a medium plex gate with my Hurricane that has a sebo, which I might add is a very vulnerable position to be in, a single Arazu will pretty much ruin my day. Anyways, two cruisers enter the system and warp to the medium. This could potentially be a fun fight, since the cruisers can warp to me at range and kite somewhat evening up the fight or if they warp to the gate at 0km I can scram one of them and force them both to fight or one of them gets left to die. Either way, if they want to fight, I now the ability to force a fight or present consequence if they want to capture that plex.
Instead, with the current mechanics, they both gate-slide in and my only option as a solo PVPer is to ship down to a cruiser and take a 2v1 fight where they're already set up inside the plex, which is pretty much a guaranteed loss. Then, lets say I come back with 2 crusiers that will probably beat their cruisers, but they realize this too and run. I just reshipped for absolutely nothing and if I try to plex the time back down, those two people can just go to another system and start offensive plexing there while I have my hans tied in the current system.
I agree that the current mechanics strongly favor the underdog from a plexing standpoint, but from a PVP standpoint it does the complete opposite an just creates ridiculous reshippathon scenarios where you can do absolutely nothing to prevent people who want to plex, from being able to plex.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
354
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Quote:You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
Yeah camping an acceleration gate is an extremely risky proposition because: 1. The other guys can hot drop you. 2. The other guys can get a warp in on you with their cloaky scout. 3. The other guys can jump into system and warp to plex at any range from any direction to land right on top of you. 4. Your fleet doesn't know how to align and use D-scan.
Edit: <--- Rolling eyes inserted before the "THEY CAN'T HOTDROP YOU, WHAT'RE YOU TALKING ABOUT!" crowd chimes in.
Otherwise, just let me know what the rules are and I'll adjust. CCP wants to allow for easy ganks of noobs on acceleration gates? Fine. CCP wants to allow noobs to get into plex? Fine. Whatever. |
Pax Thar
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
45
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:41:00 -
[112] - Quote
Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:57:00 -
[113] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple.
Yeah camping an acceleration gate is an extremely risky proposition because: 1. The other guys can hot drop you. 2. The other guys can get a warp in on you with their cloaky scout. 3. The other guys can jump into system and warp to plex at any range from any direction to land right on top of you. 4. Your fleet doesn't know how to align and use D-scan. Edit: <--- Rolling eyes inserted before the "THEY CAN'T HOTDROP YOU, WHAT'RE YOU TALKING ABOUT!" crowd chimes in. Otherwise, just let me know what the rules are and I'll adjust. CCP wants to allow for easy ganks of noobs on acceleration gates? Fine. CCP wants to allow noobs to get into plex? Fine. Whatever.
Once again, this is the kind of predictable thinking that most of the older faction warfare players seem to have. Complaining that this will suddenly result in gankers sitting on acceleration gates as people warp to them in droves. If i'm in a plexing mood and I see a ceptor and a DPS ship sitting on an acceleration gate, i'm pretty sure i'm not going to warp to it. Most of the people seem to be opposed becuase they think it will suddenly create a lazy PVP environment, yet they're unwilling to let go of the ability to be lazy and warp to gates knowing you'll be able to slide through and the other person will have to reship while also giving you tons of time to see them coming on dscan. Sounds to me that people are just being lazy and unwilling to face the possibility of having to come up with new tactics.
1) Hot drops are rare enough at least on the Amarr/Min side that I wasn't even considering this most people run the second a cyno goes up anyways. Once again, the inability to hotdrop makes it risky since the static gate campers are essentially cut off from any sort of hot drop reinforcement trickery. 2) Maybe not cloaky scout, but you can warp loki boosted Arazus in at 100km that can point from 107km and hold down targets while the rest of the gang jumps in and warps. 3) Bro, you can warp every element of your gang in at the desired range, Falcons and snipers at 100km, logi at 70km and DPS at 0. 4) Even if your fleet knows how to align and hit D-scan, if you warp a smaller gang in to pin the larger enemy gang down, before you jump in your main fleet, unless they have you scouted, they're dead and theres nothing they can do about it.
People that think camping acceleration gates is risk free PVP with no hard counters are also the people that think you can't counter neutral logistics in highsec and that camping the Jita 4-4 undock is completely risk free.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote: You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple..
Its not really that different from camping any other gate except its much easier because they always have to come in disruptor range to use the gate unlike a star gate that can kick you out far from tackle. So plexing will become sitting with a few interceptors on the gate with tornados and falcons at range blapping every frigate or destroyer that wants in. Local and dscan means there is not really much risk imo.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I'm going to throw out a totally different scenario that goes against the theory that unscrammable acceleration gates only favor the smaller gang. Lets say i'm camping a medium plex gate with my Hurricane that has a sebo, which I might add is a very vulnerable position to be in, a single Arazu will pretty much ruin my day. Anyways, two cruisers enter the system and warp to the medium. This could potentially be a fun fight, since the cruisers can warp to me at range and kite somewhat evening up the fight or if they warp to the gate at 0km I can scram one of them and force them both to fight or one of them gets left to die. Either way, if they want to fight, I now the ability to force a fight or present consequence if they want to capture that plex.
If they want to fight they can fight your bc. Like I said if they go for your bc and you scram them they then can't just jump in anytime they want. If they do not want to fight your bigger ship (perhaps they know you have a battleship, a falcon, or 5 other bcs ready to warp in on them) then they have the option to enter the plex. Then the ball is in your court you can ship down and fight for the plex or stay in your bigger ships and smack in local.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Instead, with the current mechanics, they both gate-slide in and my only option as a solo PVPer is to ship down to a cruiser and take a 2v1 fight where they're already set up inside the plex, which is pretty much a guaranteed loss..
Not really you can warp back to the gate and check your dscan to see if anyone warps out and back. They will often try to tackle you and their buddy will have to go through 2 warps to get to you. Try to kill the first guy in time. You can also open your own medium plex and see if either wants to come fight. Do they both come? If so does one burn out to you faster? The current plexing mechanics give many opportunities to split up larger gangs. But yeah if they won't split up and you don't want to fight them at the same time there will be no fight. But at least you are forcing 2 of them to do the same job you are doing alone in terms of plexing.
Also the ships can vary. Maybe you are in a faction cruiser and they are in a t1 cruiser and an af. You both can go in the plex and fight without worrying about falcons or gangs warping on top of you. If you fight on the accell gate then its the same as everywhere else in eve - blob trumps all.
I am really convinced that moving fights in plexes will make for better fights than moving them outside plexes.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Then, lets say I come back with 2 crusiers that will probably beat their cruisers, but they realize this too and run. I just reshipped for absolutely nothing and if I try to plex the time back down, those two people can just go to another system and start offensive plexing there while I have my hans tied in the current system.
I agree this needs to be addressed but its a different issue. It should be addressed by allowing us to know when and what type of plexes are attacked so we can respond in time with the appropriate ships. This could also be addressed by a count down type mechanic so when they run with an enemy on grid they would lose the work they did in the plex.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I agree that the current mechanics strongly favor the underdog from a plexing standpoint, but from a PVP standpoint it does the complete opposite an just creates ridiculous reshippathon scenarios where you can do absolutely nothing to prevent people who want to plex, from being able to plex.
I agree that this is a problem but the answer is not to allow us to gate camp plexes so we can blap smaller ships. Its to make it so that you will make more lp by fighting than you will by running. This can be done by giving notifications and a form of a timer countdown.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:08:00 -
[115] - Quote
Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended.
I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.
The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.
Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, unless you just want to fight or are bad at estimating strength, in which case die gloriously.
Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Both parties repeat the process until one side gets tired of reshipping and/or overestimates their fleet strength and decides to fight otherwise dock up and smack from inside the station.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Wenron
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
43
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:10:00 -
[116] - Quote
Point is still moot until dev input.
Pun not intentional. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
354
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:17:00 -
[117] - Quote
The ONLY complaint was your mischaracterization of RISK associated with busting up a plex gate camp.
1. There are STILL no hot drops on FW plex gates. 2. 107km "Loki boosted Arazus" can't stop sombody from turning on their MWD and burning away. 3. You can warp every element of your gang at the desired range - FROM a warp in locations. Put your gate camp away from any aligned celestials. No warp-in maneuvere is practicable. 4. This is not a problem if your crew is smart enough to position themselves properly in the first place (See Point #3).
Will you at least retract the following statement?
Quote:leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Cearain wrote: *stuff about timers and notifications*
*moar stuff about nados and ceptors*
I'm against the idea of having system wide notifications and what not. I understand the value they would provide, but from an intel standpoint, this is something that should be placed in the hands of the players. Good intel provides a HUGE advantage for the side that has the resources and the willingness to properly scout and is one of the biggest unspoken force multipliers in the game. Removing this aspect from the game would take away something that exists in every other part of EVE and would be disappointing IMO.
Regarding the nados and ceptors, theres nothing stopping people from sitting instalocking Arty nados in front of or behind minor acceleration gates as it is. Technically you can do this already.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex. The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario. Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....
Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:34:00 -
[120] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:The ONLY complaint was your mischaracterization of RISK associated with busting up a plex gate camp. 1. There are STILL no hot drops on FW plex gates. 2. 107km "Loki boosted Arazus" can't stop sombody from turning on their MWD and burning away. 3. You can warp every element of your gang at the desired range - FROM a warp in locations. Put your gate camp away from any aligned celestials. No warp-in maneuvere is practicable. 4. This is not a problem if your crew is smart enough to position themselves properly in the first place (See Point #3). Will you at least retract the following statement? Quote:leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces Fair enough its not exactly like sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km, but I still maintain that current game mechanics allow various cheesy yet slightly less effective but equally risk averse variants of this already.
Instalock ceptors with sentry drones assigned to them, instalock nados placed in line with the acceleration gate to minimize transversal.
Fleets that rely on proper placement are still more or less niche fleets like the ones I just mentioned, that probably wouldn't do well in a standup fight anyways and are very situational.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
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