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Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
291
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:15:00 -
[61] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Denidil wrote:When a linux distro like Fedora (or that hammered **** Ubuntu) is working fine there is no real problem for the end user. however it is when it breaks, and it breaks a little too often on software update. linux is too quick to make breaking changes. Did You Know that RHEL/CentOS/Fedora don't actually support in-place upgrades between major versions? great design there i did it all the time on fedora.. unless they changed that in recent versions that's a programmers reference - basically "how to write a printer driver" driver design references for windows are just as big. i never had problems getting my printers working on linux that couldn't be solved in 10 minutes. now to be fair those printers "just worked" on Windows and OS/X might also add that Apple has purchased CUPS in 2007 (and used it for printing on their computers ever since OS X was released) |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
604
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:18:00 -
[62] - Quote
Chatte Noire wrote:Please stop this senseless Windows vs Linux war, and be happy you're not using Apple products.
Those are definitively better platforms than windowscrap, thing is that they're as good as Microsoft thinking how to do adult stuff with their customers money.
brb |
Chatte Noire
PepperPark Deep Space Operations
24
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:22:00 -
[63] - Quote
Denidil wrote: Justification for a righteous war
I was not targetting you specifically. Still, it is far more productive to mock Apple than to discuss two very reliable and useful operating systems.
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Chatte Noire
PepperPark Deep Space Operations
24
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Posted - 2012.08.03 20:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Those are definitively better platforms than windowscrap, thing is that they're as good as Microsoft thinking how to do adult stuff with their customers money.
Normally I understand you very well, but this time I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.
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Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
Denidil wrote: i just did the standard install of ubuntu.. then i wanted to put mythtv on it.. even the bleeding edge .deb repositories had versions of PAM that were lower than what was required... the newest available package was pam .77, pam >= .79 was required, pam .99 was current stable at the time.
if you think all distros are made equal then you don't know as much about linux as you think you know.
Although I don't have MythTV Installed, nor I'll bother tbh doing so, a simple google search on MythTV and Ubuntu 12.04 reveals no issues whatsoever, and even shows a Mythbuntu distribution with the latest stable MythTV version 0.25, here: http://www.mythbuntu.org/12.04/release
In the event of making the wrong search, I later then proceeded in searching for 'mythtv ubuntu 12.04 pam' and I still don't get any error reported by anyone regarding PAM, MythTV and a 'standard install' of ubuntu which I assume to be the latest stable, and actually a Long Term Support version (LTS).
Quote: yes.. lets complain about problems that exist in older versions of windows that don't exist in modern versions of them, or are trivium.
I haven't had issues with registry clutter since windows 9x
you don't have to defrag.. it just helps performance. technically ext2 could be helped by defragging - it just isn't helped as much. simple design differences. I have freeware installed that intelligently online defrags my drives - stuff read more gets moved to the faster part of spinning drives. naturally my SSDs have no defrag enabled.
Well, this works both sides, you were the one bringing out problems of older 'versions' that don't exist in modern 'versions' with Linux, I only gave you a piece of the same cake, and you fell for it...
About ext2, no one uses ext2 anymore, where have you been ? ...
Quote: oh look.. uptime epeening! i feel like it's Y2K all over again. sorry i don't have any systems i can e-peen about the uptimes of since I am constantly installing fresh builds of the operating system (work), or powering them down because i don't need them on (home).
It's not about epeening (what's with you guys and willie size ?), it's about reliability, granted it's not the same as utility, as some have more or less utility for that reliability than others. Everytime someone posts an undeniable/irrefutable fact to counter an argument the 'epeen' meme always comes up that it's so banal nowadays it means nothing... like noob, it's in everyone's mouth, means nothing... |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
604
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:29:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chatte Noire wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Those are definitively better platforms than windowscrap, thing is that they're as good as Microsoft thinking how to do adult stuff with their customers money.
Normally I understand you very well, but this time I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.
They don't give a crap about their customers satisfaction or they wouldn't be throwing their crap windows versions, they do because at first the genius idea was to deliver machines with easy to use software platforms witch was a good idea, and people got used to that platform that actually was a vry good one. Now that everyone is more or less junky of their crap we have the eternal changing crap platforms getting worst one after the other and seems people like that crap so much they became blind.
Is it clear now?
brb |
Chatte Noire
PepperPark Deep Space Operations
26
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Posted - 2012.08.03 20:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:They don't give a crap about their customers satisfaction or they wouldn't be throwing their crap windows versions, they do because at first the genius idea was to deliver machines with easy to use software platforms witch was a good idea, and people got used to that platform that actually was a vry good one. Now that everyone is more or less junky of their crap we have the eternal changing crap platforms getting worst one after the other and seems people like that crap so much they became blind. Is it clear now?
Yes. Thank you. I was a bit confuzzled there for a moment.
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Waylan Yutani
Ghost Headquarters The Ghost Army
30
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Posted - 2012.08.03 20:41:00 -
[68] - Quote
So many fell for this, it's really mindboggeling
Deffo 10/10! |
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
74
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 20:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
Corvus Borealis wrote:As we speak, the industry is on fire. Windows 8 RMT was released and it's plain horrible. At the same time Valve, the company making Steam and CS, has shown how OpenGL & Ubuntu pwns D3 & Windows.
Yes, Valve has strategy to bring Steam to Linux and top of that, port all their games to linux. That's over 2500 different products!
Reason behind this is that Valve and other companies don't believe in Windows 8. Microsoft is blinded by their belief that they are unbeatable and always right. They are doing what Nokia did, and that is not listening their partners or customers. Or even dealers.
Now, next six months are really interesting. It might lead into destruction of two IT dinosaurs, Microsoft and Nokia. Both being huge, market leaders, but not being able to re-focus on new market.
My question is for CCP that are you planning on taking any actions on possible Windows 8 failure?
There are large PC dealer companies that actually are considering to skip Windows 8 totally. There are numerous PC dealers that are willing to put Ubuntu on their PC's once Valve gets steam and few major games ported on it.
Games are only reason why Windows is so used.
In 2012 there is absolutely zero reasons to have Windows in your corporate PC's since there is multiple, as capable office solutions, as Microsoft Office is.
Red Hat and Canonical are going for the top on high gear. Their products are much more cheaper than Microsofts products are. Making software on linux is much more easily, in legal mind, than making for Windows.
By making clients on Red Hat and Debian branches of Linux distributions, you would cover up most of linux users out there.
Oh and the fun part is that Intel, AMD and Nvidia don't give **** about Windows, they just want their products get sold. If WIndows in falling dinosaur and linux the rising star, of course they will give their support on Valve, Canonical and Red Hat.
Gaming industry is already strongly focusing on open gl and mobile operating systems such as iOS and android. It would be logical them to keep on open gl and screw Direct X with linux.
Finnish people still don't believe that Nokia is dead, Microsoft doesn't even get to realise what did hit them.
Back in days CCP had linux clients, but it wasn't their time yet. But now it's real.
Change is here!
CCP can't really do that, and neither can steam. You see, you still need Microsoft owned files to make even open GL work. If you have ever made Eve work on Linux, you had to illegally install those files to get it to work.
Steam may or may not have a monetary contract with MS to allow them to use the required .dll's. If they do not have said contract, they will be promptly sued after releasing the ports.
When CCP had a linux client, it was just a Cedega hack. Cedega pays MS the royalties. CCP would have to develop their own client, then pay money just to be allowed to release it. THe chances of that happeneing are slim to none.
A comparable situation would be Via chipsets for motherboards. They would just steal Intel's IP, then face them in court later after massive profits. I don't see CCP doing all that just to release a linux client, when you can just get eve working on Linux on your own anyway. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Denidil wrote:that's a programmers reference - basically "how to write a printer driver"
driver design references for windows are just as big.
i never had problems getting my printers working on linux that couldn't be solved in 10 minutes.
now to be fair those printers "just worked" on Windows and OS/X don't spoil it damn it
i know - it was a joke and i laughed. but i always try to be non-partisan when talking about microsoft and our comeptitor's products. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 21:04:00 -
[71] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Well, this works both sides, you were the one bringing out problems of older 'versions' that don't exist in modern 'versions' with Linux, I only gave you a piece of the same cake, and you fell for it...
About ext2, no one uses ext2 anymore, where have you been ? ....
any statements that apply to ext2 apply to ext3 and ext4 for the most part
and i wasn't complaining about linux as a whole - i was justifying my statement that the individual distro ubuntu is a steaming pile of ****
Alexandra Alt wrote:
It's not about epeening (what's with you guys and willie size ?), it's about reliability, granted it's not the same as utility, as some have more or less utility for that reliability than others. Everytime someone posts an undeniable/irrefutable fact to counter an argument the 'epeen' meme always comes up that it's so banal nowadays it means nothing... like noob, it's in everyone's mouth, means nothing...
the only BSODs i've had from windows in eons are faulty hardware (one laptop.. faulty storage controller.. sometimes prevents kernel access to storage when paged kernel area needs to swap.. OOPS)
i've seen windows servers with uptimes to rival linux machines.. and that was on older versions.
**** dude, i work on high availability... If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1556
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:You see, you still need Microsoft owned files to make even open GL work.
this is untrue EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
860
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:44:00 -
[73] - Quote
Corvus Borealis wrote:...
And the forums ate my entire giant post that is now below. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
860
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
Corvus Borealis wrote:At the same time Valve, the company making Steam and CS, has shown how OpenGL & Ubuntu pwns D3 & Windows.
Quote: Gaming industry is already strongly focusing on open gl and mobile operating systems such as iOS and android. It would be logical them to keep on open gl and screw Direct X with linux.
TL:DR OpenGL blows in its current state, but we're stuck with it on non-Microsoft platforms.
I'm a graphics developer that works with cross platform applications using Direct3D 9/10/11 and OpenGL. Direct3D 9 and OpenGL, in its current form, are obsolete dinosaurs that need to be taken to a nearly silty lake and buried so that future generations can pity us.
OpenGL is just an abstraction layer on top of your video hardware, so is Direct3D. They let you talk to your video card in a human understandable language. They both do essentially the same thing with different flavours from a developer's stand point. With a well written application both graphic APIs will deliver exactly the same performance under ideal circumstances. Unfortunately those circumstances do not exist in the real world with most video hardware developers becoming increasingly lax with their OpenGL driver support, because...
OpenGL is crap if you're a developer. From a user's standpoint you won't notice any real difference between OpenGL and Direct3D aside from some placebo effects.
Its a terribly outdated API built to interface with video hardware that was developed in the late 80s and early 90s. Because of the need to maintain backwards compatibility with some extremely expensive and influential application (Everything Autodesk made for example), the API has never been updated in any substantial way. The newest versions support most of the features of modern day video hardware but do it using the same outdated and painful programming models we've been suffering since the late 90s. OpenGL in its current form does not conform to the way modern video cards actually work. Everything you do with it is a cludgy hack.
This isn't helped by the Khronos Group, the governing body that is suppose to maintain the OpenGL standard. Every time they've had the chance to scrap the API and start fresh with modern models they've waffled. The one attempt they did try was hamstrung by some inane attempt to maintain backwards compatibility with dinosaur applications, yet again.
All of these arguments apply to Direct3D 9 as well, aside from the Khronos Group incompetence. The difference is that Microsoft has no problem saying, "You want to keep using 9 and using Windows XP? No problem, go ahead, but we're not maintaining that crap anymore." And out rolls Direct3D 10 and 11, which is just an extension of 10.
Direct3D 10/11 conforms to the way that modern video hardware works and does it using a clean straight forward API. On top of separating the video rendering responsibilities from the video display responsibilities using DXGI, which was an awesome move. Using Direct3D 10/11 compared to Direct3D 9 or OpenGL is like drinking spring water compared to donkey urine.
I would love it if an influential game developer like Valve could take the Khronos Group by its balls and force them to do something about the current state of OpenGL. Open software standards are important and should be vigorously supported. I love working with Direct3D 10/11 and would rather drink drain cleaner than go back to OpenGL and Direct3D 9 but closed standards like Microsoft's are not beneficial to the software industry.
I could get started on Linux compared to Windows but that will just open up a huge flood gate of debating that will probably cripple CCP's forums software. I will say that 2014 can't come soon enough. Microsoft will finally put a bullet in Windows XP's head and maybe we can finally start marching into the future. Windows 8 is not that future. Its not crap but its going to be this generation's Windows Vista or Windows 95. Massive bounding leaps that are completely half-assed. I'll wait until all their new tech has matured a bit in Windows 9. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
860
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
And about mobile platforms. Android is hell if you're a developer targeting more than one device, iOS is great if you don't mind closed systems. OpenES, the mobile version of OpenGL is just as bad as OpenGL and suffers from all the same problems.
We're stuck with it because there are no other options. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
860
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 22:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote: CCP can't really do that, and neither can steam. You see, you still need Microsoft owned files to make even open GL work. If you have ever made Eve work on Linux, you had to illegally install those files to get it to work.
Steam may or may not have a monetary contract with MS to allow them to use the required .dll's. If they do not have said contract, they will be promptly sued after releasing the ports.
This isn't true. Wine & Cedega use a combination of reverse engineering and reengineering to develop libraries that are compatible with Windows. Both of these methods and the act of reimplementing Windows functionality on a different platform is legal in most developed nations. This is helped by a very large body of open source developers that greatly enjoy exactly this sort of activity.
OpenGL itself is not an application. Its a standard. An open standard at that. Anyone is allowed to produce video hardware and drivers for that hardware for any platform they wish and if they implement the OpenGL standard they're allowed to say their hardware/drivers are OpenGL compatible. Microsoft does not own any rights to OpenGL, there is no Microsoft code anywhere in OpenGL because OpenGL isn't a piece of software. Microsoft willingly pulled out of the Architecture Review Board (ARB, the predecessor to the Khronos Group), many years ago and has had nothing to do with OpenGL since. Even using OpenGL on a Windows system is a pain in the butt because Microsoft has never updated their own implementation of the software driver. If you want to use all those swanky OpenGl 3.x features you'll have to go through the extension system to call your video card driver's functions directly.
... I love ranting about rendering APIs. You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world. |
Apolleneous
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:35:00 -
[77] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:lol, dont be so nieve
Dude, seriously get a damn spellchecker (it's naive, not nieve) and a clue before you put any type of coherent though process together.
Facts are facts, Steam is already seriously planning on a move to Linux, primarily focusing on Ubuntu distributions at the moment, this is primarily because they know what a mess Windows 8 will be (Windows ME Style), so Windows fanboyism, and lack of sources for your business banter aside; as soon as Steam will start the process, my guess is that others will jump on the bandwagon soon enough
Linux is already far more ubiquitous than Microsoft in a number of different areas, and is a far more stable platform for almost any type of computing (this is why most supercomputers today run Linux) , so why be so closed minded in thinking that Linux may not be used in gaming? Quit being a drone, and start thinking outside the box, at least a bit. I for one will welcome the change, and if CCP is smart they will too.
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1556
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:48:00 -
[78] - Quote
Apolleneous wrote:Linux is already far more ubiquitous than Microsoft in a number of different areas, and is a far more stable platform for almost any type of computing (this is why most supercomputers today run Linux) , so why be so closed minded in thinking that Linux may not be used in gaming? Quit being a drone, and start thinking outside the box, at least a bit. I for one will welcome the change, and if CCP is smart they will too.
linux running on large computing clusters and lamp stacks running on $500 rackmount boxes is clearly indicative of 2015 being the definite year of the linux desktop EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Pankas Carter
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:49:00 -
[79] - Quote
I love how all the folks talking Linux down are engaging in ad hominem attacks.
Nice way to back your arguments, folks. Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear? Starbuck: Nothing but the rain. Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
I like Origin better than steam, shoot me, but sometimes steam is a buggy piece of ****. |
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Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Republic University Minmatar Republic
124
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Apolleneous wrote:Linux is already far more ubiquitous than Microsoft in a number of different areas, and is a far more stable platform for almost any type of computing (this is why most supercomputers today run Linux) , so why be so closed minded in thinking that Linux may not be used in gaming? Quit being a drone, and start thinking outside the box, at least a bit. I for one will welcome the change, and if CCP is smart they will too. linux running on large computing clusters and lamp stacks running on $500 rackmount boxes is clearly indicative of 2015 being the definite year of the linux desktop
You misspelled that goonie.
It's "The Year of The Linux DesktopGäó" |
Pankas Carter
Viziam Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 23:56:00 -
[82] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:I like Origin better than steam, shoot me, but sometimes steam is a buggy piece of ****.
Origin would be OK if it would stop spamming me to buy games I already own every time I log in.
But I'm far too vested in Steam to just drop it. I own over 200 titles. Adama: Starbuck, what do you hear? Starbuck: Nothing but the rain. Adama: Then grab your gun and bring in the cat. |
Alexzandvar Douglass
NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Pankas Carter wrote:Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:I like Origin better than steam, shoot me, but sometimes steam is a buggy piece of ****. Origin would be OK if it would stop spamming me to buy games I already own every time I log in. But I'm far too vested in Steam to just drop it. I own over 200 titles.
Don't get me wrong, steam is less money grabby with great sales and what not, but half the time I will load up a game that will not work or I will need to screw around with it with little to no support to get it to work properly. |
Blane Xero
The Firestorm Cartel
43
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 00:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
I'll never understand people who own computers for Gaming and complain when you have to troubleshoot issues. I would say it comes with the territory, but then people would just claim it is no excuse.
The short of it is, stop blaming Steam for when games don't work. I've had numerous issues in the past that, without the steam forums [One of the largest and greatest resources for troubleshooting current games] I would have had much more trouble finding out what was causing some small errors that took me all of 2 minutes to perform once discovered and then have never needed to touch again. Very few times has it been something directly steams fault, and for the two or three times it has been [and has still been fixable, easily] I can forgive them thanks to the Client Files Validation feature.
My only gripe is how they handle offline mode, for which there is really no excuse, but the steam hate just baffles me. Even more so do the people who now prefer Origin over Steam. You lot disgust me. Resident Haruhiist since December 2008.
Laying claim to Out of Pod Experience since 2007, plain and simple. Keep the trash out of Out Of Pod Experience, If it's EVE Related or deserves a Lock, it does not belong here. |
Spurty
D00M. Northern Coalition.
400
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 01:46:00 -
[85] - Quote
Back in the day of pcs you had to be slightly clever to work out how to use them.
This meant the chaff was left mashing buttons with arcade games while the rest of us shot thargoids and went mental trying to dock without a docking computer.
These days pcs come pre-built with the OS already installed.
What a disaster this has been
---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:00:00 -
[86] - Quote
Nex apparatu5 wrote:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Wikimedia_OS_share_pie_chart.png
Yeah, that about says it all.
10 years ago there would have been a lot more blue in that chart. Apple is slowly gnawing away at Microsoft's market share. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:04:00 -
[87] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:Also
No company would mass produce LINUX based machines as they would not sell
Um, you do know it's the same hardware right?
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Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:11:00 -
[88] - Quote
Corvus Borealis wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Hey guys, 2 multibillion dollar giant companies are just going to up and vanish overnight, you heard it here first, this prophet of industry couldn't possibly be wrong. Nokia. Was worth hunders of billions. Now? less than 6 billion euros..
Cellphones are disposable.
Operating systems have their claws deep into IT infrastructure. MS won't go away overnight because there are so many legacy systems that need Windows and Office APIs.
Microsoft is more likely to go the way of IBM. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:16:00 -
[89] - Quote
Taranius De Consolville wrote:But as home pcs, it will NEVER been main stream because EACH user would have to CREATE there own desktop
Say what? |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
148
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 02:34:00 -
[90] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Apolleneous wrote:Linux is already far more ubiquitous than Microsoft in a number of different areas, and is a far more stable platform for almost any type of computing (this is why most supercomputers today run Linux) , so why be so closed minded in thinking that Linux may not be used in gaming? Quit being a drone, and start thinking outside the box, at least a bit. I for one will welcome the change, and if CCP is smart they will too. linux running on large computing clusters and lamp stacks running on $500 rackmount boxes is clearly indicative of 2015 being the definite year of the linux desktop
Yeah, I can't see it either. Steam is going Linux, because Linux is all that's left. They are about to become the next WordPerfect and they know it. Microsoft have a long history of pissing all over software vendors who developed for the Windows market. Anyone remember WordPerfect? Borland? Sybase? Lotus?
The on-line app markets for Consoles, iOS, Android and OSX are already well established, and the Windows app markets will be sewn up pretty soon.
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