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Doctor Ungabungas
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.27 10:30:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Sentient Blade In other words if there is a demand for an item or product at a given price, then that is what the product is worth. That demand may be what a person would be willing to pay when presented with the product, or it may be an offer to buy that product at a given price.
Translating that over to EvE; if the market window clearly indicates that person X wishes to buy item Y for price Z then the items in question are worth Z.
The technique we are discussing here is an attack on the market system, which CCP is 100% reliant upon for the correct operation of the EvE universe. More specifically, it is an attack on the user having no way to differentiate between an order which will can be filled and one that cannot be.
I wouldn't have a problem here because I'd sell to one of the other buy orders for that product at a slightly lower price. If there are 10 buys for 5 million and one for 1.5 billion that should set off a few alarm bells, shouldn't it?
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Shiho Weitong
Caldari Koa Mai Hoku
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:41:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 27/10/2010 15:44:12 I loved the pretzel analogy.
To be constructive, I have to say, that the scam part of this deal is perpetrated when the mark buys something at 5-10 times real value. Nothing of what happens on the market is a scam per se.
Yes, it might be an order that is impossible to fill. Luckily the market saves you from losing the item. Congratulations, you did not lose your overpriced and useless T2 rigs, or whatever. Why you bought it in the first place is the big question.
I mean, seriously people. There are people who live off the market, (I've been one myself, and this scam is by no chance a new thing) how do you suppose that you would be able to spot the good deal before people who work the markets 23/7?
Continuing that train of thought. If the only seller you can find in the jita area is a contract, you should go somewhere else and check the prizes, or "GASP" actually calculate what it would cost to build the item in question.
People falling for this and calling foul, really needs to open their eyes to the fact, that the market in eve is not a happy little marketplace. It's more like a trading floor, where everybody will use any advantage they can to make profit.
On a completely onrelated note, I'm selling 1000 mines at 400000 isk a piece and buying them at 40000000 isk a piece, at a minimum of 5b units. ----------- Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare.
I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn You win, and thank you. |
Lord Zyte
Caldari Apolitical
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Posted - 2010.10.27 19:45:00 -
[123]
Thats why this should really be looked at. Its so cookie cutter and predictable.
fact is most people will be caught with this scam only once, and at that point never do it again. I'm not a fan of saying "because you were dumb enough to fall for it, you deserve to lose" as an argument.
Thats beside the point. Its a stupid game mechanic. if your fleet is dumb enough to jump into an emeny fleet on the gate and be stuck loading grid for 30 minutes, does that mean you deserve to lose your ships? sure. Its also a broken mechanic.
You guys are thinkin in binary, and failing to see big picture. It don't matter if someone is dumb enough to fall for it or not. The argument many of us are making is that its enough of a gray area that it should be addressed. just cuz someone had a momentary dumb moment and lost some isk doesn't mean anything. Its not an argument for or against. What is an argument against is its absolute obscurity, and the ease with which a scammer can make isk.
I once sat in jita local and saw a guy flip 4 orders worth 500 million a piece in under 20 minutes. There was no depth, no thought, no intelligence, just a guy copy catting some **** he saw someone do 50 times in a row. He is not elite for doing this, because it was easy. He has elite money, without having been required to show elite performance, either in pvp, intelligence gathering, ect.
I don't mind the occasional scammer, what i do mind is abuse of game mechanics become the most elite way to play. Its predictable and boring. Just cuz its "riskee" doesn't mean its adds something interesting to the game. Its not, its lame beyond human compare. Like fishing. And requires an intelligence level equal to mining. it took one smart guy to figure that out. It took a bunch of dumbassess to copy it and make it "cool".
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.10.27 19:49:00 -
[124]
It is not a broken mechanic just because you say it is. ~_~
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Lord Zyte
Caldari Apolitical
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Posted - 2010.10.27 19:56:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Lady Spank It is not a broken mechanic just because you say it is.
No its a broken mechanic cuz its to damn easy. Just like deep safe spots.
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.10.27 20:13:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Lord Zyte
Originally by: Lady Spank It is not a broken mechanic just because you say it is.
No its a broken mechanic cuz its to damn easy. Just like deep safe spots.
Lol no. ~_~
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Pinkon
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Posted - 2010.10.29 11:47:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Pinkon on 29/10/2010 11:52:00
Hay to all. Im a Pinkon. "Trick" [come one its not a scammmm] with margin trading is not safe. Everyone who think is "no risk trick" have no idea about margin trading at all.
EDIT: We all risk huge amount of isk, isk you can grab from us. And you can be sure one thing - it can be done...
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Marchocias
Silent Ninja's
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Posted - 2010.10.29 18:37:00 -
[128]
When I first came across this idea it seemed pretty unbalanced at face value. I would have said it was an exploit.
Having had time to look at it a bit more objectively I must change my mind. Frankly, the only way you'll get burned by this is because of greedily attempting to make a too-good-to-be-true fortune, so on some level you deserve it. In addition, there are actually methods to counter it, although they are themselves pretty risky. When it comes down to it, there really isn't any robust reasoning to support it being an exploit.
Not only that, but as a game mechanic its totally ****ing awesome!
---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it). |
Arc Perish
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Posted - 2010.10.29 23:09:00 -
[129]
Edited by: Arc Perish on 29/10/2010 23:12:36
Originally by: Pinkon Edited by: Pinkon on 29/10/2010 11:52:00
Hay to all. Im a Pinkon. "Trick" [come one its not a scammmm] with margin trading is not safe. Everyone who think is "no risk trick" have no idea about margin trading at all.
EDIT: We all risk huge amount of isk, isk you can grab from us. And you can be sure one thing - it can be done...
OH HAI! AND YOU CAN BE SURE ONE THING - IT CAN BE DONE!!!!
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.10.29 23:37:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Marchocias Frankly, the only way you'll get burned by this is because of greedily attempting to make a too-good-to-be-true fortune, so on some level you deserve it.
Not only that, but as a game mechanic its totally ****ing awesome!
Exactly. This scam is so beautiful because it scams and the scammer. Let's be honest here, all the people who got "scammed" where trying to stick someone else with items vastly overpriced and out of a lot of isk. But instead, they are the ones stuck with the vastly overpriced items and themselves out of a lot of isk. You tried to screw over someone and got screwed yourself. This is market pvp with loss, this is what EVE is all about. You can either HTFU or GTFO. Whining on the eve-o forums about getting owned in pvp is what lady spank would call "pathetic". - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.31 06:20:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Spruillo nerf margin trading
Make margin trading work like the real world. His margin call should have paid out the order, putting him negative by that amount and confiscated all orders put up by the character, locking his use of anything involving the wallet, and pulling assets from his corp as well.
THAT is what happens when you can't meet your margin call.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.31 06:48:00 -
[132]
Margin trading uses collateral to cover your margin. This isn't margin trading, it's a support system for scammers.
Yeah, I got burnt. Tried to fill a buy order that was 20% higher than the sell order where I got the items. I would not have tried to acquire the items if the buy order had been more than the average market price of the item (10% higher than the buy order). I would not have tried to fill the order if I had known it was a margin based buy order that might fail.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.31 06:58:00 -
[133]
Quote: Hi, I'm afraid we do not currently view the margin trading scam as an exploit I'm afraid. We do not reverse scams where this tactic is used, I'm very sorry about that. This tactic can be copied by simply canceling the buy order once the sell order has been met. Best regards, GM <name removed> EVE Online Customer Support
Fast service too. Basically a big *F* *U* from CCP to me.
no, you can't have my ****ing stuff
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Amanda Eidolo
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.31 09:07:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Arzamor
Quote: Hi, I'm afraid we do not currently view the margin trading scam as an exploit I'm afraid. We do not reverse scams where this tactic is used, I'm very sorry about that. This tactic can be copied by simply canceling the buy order once the sell order has been met. Best regards, GM <name removed> EVE Online Customer Support
Fast service too. Basically a big *F* *U* from CCP to me.
no, you can't have my ****ing stuff
I LIKE HOW YOU TRIPLE POSTED, QUOTED GM CORRESPONDENCE, AND WHINED LIKE A LITTLE ***** OVER LOSING SOME ISK
HARDEN UP SON -------- ¦ |
Sarah Quinn
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Posted - 2010.10.31 09:57:00 -
[135]
I ah...
got some rigs for sale in Jita 4-4 if anyone's interested
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Ikthyace Notbright
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Posted - 2010.10.31 15:58:00 -
[136]
Arzamor, for one you are overreacting and secondly the point of Margin Trading is that you can continue a business on projected profits. In legitimate use a ship manufacturer could put a buy order in for a large amount of minerals that he just doesn't have the money for yet, but will when his last couple of ships sell. It allows a business to have some cushion from the slower parts of the game if people simply aren't buying. On the side of the guy selling minerals, if the manufacturer does not have enough money to pay the the buyer will simply say "Oh well" and move on to the next order. That's part of the risk of trying to make money off of a rare item deal. If only one or two buy orders are up at the price you want and the rest, if any, are millions below, then you run the risk of a buyer backing out for some reason (in this case to scam) and you are stuck with overpriced goods. Also Arzamor you are wrong. In real life when one makes a margin based call in a contract with another partyto buy goods, then the buyer's assets are liquidated. However, if one sends an open invitation of "We will buy your stuff" and when you come up and they say "Nevermind" then nothing happens. Its like if those cheap Cash4Gold groups suddenly said "We aren't taking anymore gold" you would have to keep whatever you wanted to sell and deal with it. If you had purposely bought gold with the intention of selling it to them to make a profit, then you just lost money and can't do a thing about it.
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Bety Plos
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Posted - 2010.10.31 16:42:00 -
[137]
You like it guys as I see.... Yes indeed this way of selling overpriced items uses the game mechanics, otherwise would be a hack or something illegal. It`s not a scam in my opinion because rare items and things that you don`t need shouldn`t be worry the daily gamer, but only those who greedily want to make money in a few seconds, yes Marchocias is right about it. Actually when the first buy order came up with some items, that was the idea... Greedy people. Anyway I saw and some other people who make trips in all the universe and make isks from trading from one point to the other getting victims of that rare things promotional mechanism, so I am bringing here an idea of clearing that margin trading "false" without changing the basic idea of that skill. The buyer who uses that mechanism wil pay those items and his wallet will go negative if he don`t have enough money, while the happy seller made a good deal. That would imedietly stop all the jita maniacs and prevent them from doing those bad deals, also those who want to use the skill until they sell some other items and can pay the buy order to have the right to do it as it was intented to.
sry for my bad english, I learn englsih from the games and not in school :)
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Bianca D
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Posted - 2010.10.31 19:04:00 -
[138]
Did not real all posts. But as a fix i propose this solution. Margin trading will still work but will allways cover the higest buy order. So the first buy order will be still 100% but after that buy order the isk amount you have to place in will allways cover the buy order.
Will the escrow in the buyorder reach under coverage level for the highest buy order it will automaticly drop the buy orders that it can not cover till it can cover the highest buy order again.
Extention to first option is that it takes isk from the wallet first to fill up de escrow for the market orders. So no order will be dropped. And this should be configurable in yes or no or with a margin.
This way the seller allways get the isk. The buy tycoon can still setup all his buy orders but need to make a bigger buffer in his wallet.
my 2 cents.
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Jayyne Cobb
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Posted - 2010.10.31 19:14:00 -
[139]
At first I was like "Augh! Thats wrong! Exploit!", but then I thought about how this works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil
True story. The 70's movie THE STING was ripped off from this man's real life.
Weil says: "Each of my victims had larceny in his heart," explained Weil. "The desire to get something for nothing has been very costly to many people who have dealt with me and with other con men...When people learnûas I doubt they willûthat they can't get something for nothing, crime will diminish and we shall live in greater harmony."
If I hold a sign up that says BUYING KITTENS, $1000 EACH And you see another person holding a sign KITTENS! $500 ONLY 3 LEFT, and you buy the kittens for $500 and then I change my mind, or say I only want ten kittens or no sale...well, were you trying to get something for nothing? Trying to rip off the buyer? Yes, you were. If you werent, you would have introduced the two people, then noticed it was the same person running down the street ahead of you and removing his fake mustache.
Did I sorta explain it correctly, you trader experts?
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Gunsten Green
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Posted - 2010.10.31 21:26:00 -
[140]
EXPLOIT!!!pure and simple!!!further induced by the story they ran for a capusleer profiting from this high buy orders was outrigght fiction!!!!everyone should be reimbursed!!!! |
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Irnbrucks
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:03:00 -
[141]
SCC So.. story-wise would make sense to classify it as an exploit
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WCPistolPete
Gallente MacroIntel
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:10:00 -
[142]
IMHO: Scam, yes. Exploit? No. And scams are a part of the game.
Game mechanic that takes advantage of a player's greed.
Playing the market is just like undocking: "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose."
Seems some "flew" more than they cared to lose in the hopes of satisfying their "need for greed"TM. (New patch name?)
And unless CCP initates micromanagement practices on the database there's no way a player will ever know if: 1) buyer's wallet was emptied as part of a scam 2) you lost your best ship and have to clean out your wallet to replace the ship and it's fittings, thus rendering you buy orders useless until you do some missions.
If they don't do micromanagement to find all of the mission, ice and PI macroers, why the hell would they micromanage the market? They already place seed orders and recently lifted the cap on PLEX by allowing capsuleers to undock with them. Now players are scanning rookie ships in hopes of hitting the jackpot...
Caveat emptor. {WC}PistolPete "...going to take a lot of fireworks to clean this place up..." Homer Simpson |
Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 00:44:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Ikthyace Notbright Arzamor, for one you are overreacting and secondly the point of Margin Trading is that you can continue a business on projected profits. In legitimate use a ship manufacturer could put a buy order in for a large amount of minerals that he just doesn't have the money for yet, but will when his last couple of ships sell. It allows a business to have some cushion from the slower parts of the game if people simply aren't buying. On the side of the guy selling minerals, if the manufacturer does not have enough money to pay the the buyer will simply say "Oh well" and move on to the next order. That's part of the risk of trying to make money off of a rare item deal. If only one or two buy orders are up at the price you want and the rest, if any, are millions below, then you run the risk of a buyer backing out for some reason (in this case to scam) and you are stuck with overpriced goods. Also Arzamor you are wrong. In real life when one makes a margin based call in a contract with another partyto buy goods, then the buyer's assets are liquidated. However, if one sends an open invitation of "We will buy your stuff" and when you come up and they say "Nevermind" then nothing happens. Its like if those cheap Cash4Gold groups suddenly said "We aren't taking anymore gold" you would have to keep whatever you wanted to sell and deal with it. If you had purposely bought gold with the intention of selling it to them to make a profit, then you just lost money and can't do a thing about it.
Buyer didn't back out...game did it for him automatically, and the buy order was placed with this mechanism in mind, in order to defraud others into buying his goods. I would not be surprised to find out that the other sell orders of this item were posted by the scammer in order to make the market look better.
Read on for Bety Plos's article below, since he's the 'happy seller' here. He is the scammer. Doesn't help to know that since the market is completely anonymous.
He proposes the easiest solution to this scam. Filling a buy order should take the buyer's wallet negative if they can't cover the margin. Need to add one thing though...you should be unable to recycle a character with a negative balance. Still, one GTC will let you run the scam 3 times. Still, I believe that no single order should be allowed that is greater than the total the buyer has in escrow.
Oh, and overreacting? I don't think so. I worked for months for that isk. I have 3 options (within EULA) to get it back. 1 train up margin trading and scam others, 2 grind out the isk, 3 sell a plex. I can't take the guy to court. I can't walk up and punch the guy in the face. I have no way to get satisfaction, since the coward probably never leaves the station.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.01 00:56:00 -
[144]
Not an exploit but I understand the mewling. I think the news coverage this scam has gotten was a good move by CCP. A noob can't be expected to know that market orders aren't set-in-stone and may disappear if the buyer lacks sufficient ISK in his wallet.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 01:07:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Arzamor on 01/11/2010 01:09:36
Originally by: Jayyne Cobb At first I was like "Augh! Thats wrong! Exploit!", but then I thought about how this works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil
True story. The 70's movie THE STING was ripped off from this man's real life.
Weil says: "Each of my victims had larceny in his heart," explained Weil. "The desire to get something for nothing has been very costly to many people who have dealt with me and with other con men...When people learnûas I doubt they willûthat they can't get something for nothing, crime will diminish and we shall live in greater harmony."
If I hold a sign up that says BUYING KITTENS, $1000 EACH And you see another person holding a sign KITTENS! $500 ONLY 3 LEFT, and you buy the kittens for $500 and then I change my mind, or say I only want ten kittens or no sale...well, were you trying to get something for nothing? Trying to rip off the buyer? Yes, you were. If you werent, you would have introduced the two people, then noticed it was the same person running down the street ahead of you and removing his fake mustache.
Did I sorta explain it correctly, you trader experts?
If he had changed his mind, I wouldn't care. He never intended to make the purchase. The purchase order was put up with the sole purpose of supporting the price of the sell order. The purchase order was set up to fail automatically. It's the automatically part that removes risk on the part of the scammer and ensures that all risk is on the part of the mark.
So, I saw sell orders for 40-42 million on the market. One for 30 million, one for 29.9 million and quantity enough to fill a 36 mil buy order ten jumps away. This order has 28 minumum quantity (this is important, see below). So, I see a guy with volume who wants to sell out quickly, so he undercuts the market. I see someone 10 jumps away who wants to make isk on the volume. So, all everyone needs is for someone to transport the item. But, when the sell and buy orders are placed by the same person or team of people, with no intention of honoring the buy order, it is a con. Variation on the Murphy Game or The Thai Gem.
I don't have a problem with scamming being in the game, but I did my due dilligence and saw a legit looking way of making some isk. If someone buys a contract for a Raven thinking it is a Navy Raven and doesn't look closely enough, then caveat emptor. (Pig in a Poke).
The key to spotting this scam is the minimum order. Minimum orders make sense when you look at items that are used in bulk like Tritanium. You don't want someone selling you their free trit from their noob ship in some backwater station. Not worth fetching, so it will merely clutter your assets list. So you put in a 5k minimum order (or 10k or whatever you deem worth fetching.) The items used in this scam are a) expensive to make and b) almost completely worthless in the game. And when you use them, the most you use is 3. So it makes no sense at all to have a minimum buy order of 28.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.01 01:13:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Bianca D Did not real all posts. But as a fix i propose this solution. Margin trading will still work but will allways cover the higest buy order. So the first buy order will be still 100% but after that buy order the isk amount you have to place in will allways cover the buy order.
Will the escrow in the buyorder reach under coverage level for the highest buy order it will automaticly drop the buy orders that it can not cover till it can cover the highest buy order again.
Extention to first option is that it takes isk from the wallet first to fill up de escrow for the market orders. So no order will be dropped. And this should be configurable in yes or no or with a margin.
This way the seller allways get the isk. The buy tycoon can still setup all his buy orders but need to make a bigger buffer in his wallet.
my 2 cents.
Thank you. I agree with your solution. I think it is an elegant solution. No single order (whole order) can be greater than the buyer's escrow. And give them the option of manually increasing their escrow. And if cancelling an order would cause their next highest order to violate this rule, require an increase in escrow or cancel the second order too. And so on until the rule is met.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.01 06:04:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 01/11/2010 06:06:56 Can't bother to read through all posts in this thread. I only found out about this thread through in-game news article.
If you are wondering whether this is considered as an exploit or not, I've got the official response to my petition from CCP that at this moment it is in the "gray area" but it's not considered to be an exploit, although it might change in the future (they are working on it). This is double confirmed info from two GMs.
Hope this contributes to the discussion.
Cheers
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Smartislarti
HEART OF GOLD
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Posted - 2010.11.01 08:22:00 -
[148]
After the reading of the above post I understand that:
a) Some people got rich by using a skill that 98% of the players think of as not worth buying or even training.
b)Others lost money because due to beeing greedy and beeing to dump to confirm if the deal is worth the investment.
Now, what happens is that:
a) Some cry for the nerf bat to strike trading, which I allways understood as pvp on a higher level.
b) Many players are thinking about how to earn money the same way. Some of them will do - and many of them will fail.
c) Most others are angry because they didn't find out easy ways to make money out of nothing by themselfes.
That's what happens in real life all day long, too bad that there is no nerfbat around when you need one.
"Since we have to speak well of the dead, let's knock them while they're alive." -- John Sloan |
Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.11.01 09:26:00 -
[149]
LOL @ Arzamor, the butthurt is STRONG. Don't stop posting.
~_~
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Steve Celeste
Overdogs
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Posted - 2010.11.01 11:16:00 -
[150]
Looks like some people got outplayed.
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